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Scott,

Thanks! I’d be in for the Santa Fe “Super Fleet” freight version. That’s the revived warbonnet scheme with the large red Santa Fe lettering (road numbers 90-98) and represents the engines’ appearance from 1989 until retirement. That would compliment your upcoming SD40-2s nicely. I think I’d also go for one in the Santa Fe “Kodachrome” scheme of the late 1980s.

RM

The "Bookend"/blue dip scheme would be the freight contemporary of the small lettered warbonnet, although the FPs had the cigar band style logo on the nose rather than the square circle cross.

@Hot Water posted:

For what it's worth, the Amtrak SDP40F is quite a bit different, not only being a "Dash 2" series with the HTC 3 axle truck (different than the F45 & FP45 trucks), but also there were no steps & hand railings in the front.

Yes, I know they're not identical, but we're in the ballpark here.  Trucks would exist in Scott's parts bin from the SD40-2 project, and if he does Tunnel Motors he also has a frame with the right wheelbase.  Its not too much of a stretch to make the locomotives for the otherwise somewhat orphaned El Cap sets.

3 phases of Amtrak, ATSF, ATSF Maersk special paint job, and one was an EMD test bed in blue and white.  There's some opportunity here to share parts.

Last edited by Boilermaker1

I'd definitely be in for three as delivered ATSF Warbonnet versions to pull my El Capitan and perhaps a repainted freight version to go with the SD40-2 for a prototypical consist.

Don't forget about the Milwaukee Road passenger version painted in the post 1955 UP inspired scheme.  I haven't seen that one posted by anyone else. 

The other schemes have all been listed. 

For early Amtrak there are photos showing leased FP45s and F45s in consists with SDP40Fs.  One of my favorite consists is a photo showing a Warbonnet FP45 leading an as delivered blue and yellow F45, followed by a SDP40F pulling the Southwest Limited.  While it seems like a lot of HP, three units were common when ATSF was pulling the combined El Capitan / Super Chief.

The "Bookend"/blue dip scheme would be the freight contemporary of the small lettered warbonnet, although the FPs had the cigar band style logo on the nose rather than the square circle cross.

Yes, I know they're not identical, but we're in the ballpark here.  Trucks would exist in Scott's parts bin from the SD40-2 project, and if he does Tunnel Motors he also has a frame with the right wheelbase.  Its not too much of a stretch to make the locomotives for the otherwise somewhat orphaned El Cap sets.

3 phases of Amtrak, ATSF, ATSF Maersk special paint job, and one was an EMD test bed in blue and white.  There's some opportunity here to share parts.

SDP40F would be interesting as well. For so many reasons from rainbow trains to Amtrak fans.  Both of these locomotives have never been done right in 1/48. A Sunset quality FP45 and the albiet different but similar SDP40F in Amtrak would be neat.

When I lived near the ATSF Harbor Sub, I used to see a pair in Blue/Yellowbonnet parked on a siding. As I recall, there were at least four different paint/lettering patterns on the FP45's. There are photos at the links below:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic...3BltpoA&usqp=CAU

http://s3.amazonaws.com/rrpa_p.../98391/5953%2096.jpg

Last edited by AGHRMatt
@AGHRMatt posted:

When I lived near the ATSF Harbor Sub, I used to see a pair in this paint parked on a siding. As I recall, there were at least four different paint patterns on the FP45's.



Hi Matt...please indicate if you took this picture or have permission to post it so that we can avoid any possible copyright.

Thanks!

Last edited by OGR CEO-PUBLISHER

Regarding the FP45; Milwaukee Road had these without dynamic brakes.  Delivered in the UP Colored Passsenger Scheme, later repainted in Orange and Black "freight scheme".  Three different lettering options.  Small side lettering, Herald only and Large side lettering.  It appears that a roof top winterization hatch was added during the first repainting.

I've read the talk about the SDP40F.  It would be neat if we could have those as well for Amtrak.  If not, the FP45s painted Amtrak might suffice.  I hate to ever mention that, but I don't know what the overall interest is for the SDP40F.  The HO crowd finally got theirs just prior to covid.

If variations are possible, perhaps the F40C could also be produced.  Milwaukee Road had these for the Chicago commuter service.  Later repainted into Metra Colors.  These ran up until a couple years ago.  Metra still has a pair stored.

As far as I, I, I; Me, Me, Me; Me, I; Me, I, Me, I:  My interest would be 2 Milwaukee Road Yellow FP45s, 1 Milwaukee Road Orange/Black Herald Only, 2 Amtrak SDP40F's and 1 Metra F40C.

From here, we get into the Calculus of FP45s.  In one direction you have the F45 which was ordered by more road than just Santa Fe and Milwaukee Road.  In the other direction we have the SD45 which should be a future consideration.  And yes, when we get down and dirty into the SD45 discussion, C&NW had them without dynamic brakes and EL had SDP45's, which were a bit longer.  Wisconsin Central ended up with one of these (6634), so it would be a request:-)

Photos emailed to 3rd Rail directly to avoid any posting concerns.

Hey Guys:  How about an Amtrak F40PH?  I know this is a little off topic, but the nose looks similar....  Overland Models did not produce a lot of these.  I know one guy who has 4, two more guys that each have three, which I believe accounts for most of them.  With the Amfleets coming out and the Horizon Cars that have been out for some time, I think there might be some demand here.  I can think of 2 different Chicago-Metra paint schemes, 3 different Amtrak paint schemes, plus the Amtrak conversion to a cab control car........

@Brad Kowal posted:

Hey Guys:  How about an Amtrak F40PH?  I know this is a little off topic, but the nose looks similar....  Overland Models did not produce a lot of these.  I know one guy who has 4, two more guys that each have three, which I believe accounts for most of them.  With the Amfleets coming out and the Horizon Cars that have been out for some time, I think there might be some demand here.  I can think of 2 different Chicago-Metra paint schemes, 3 different Amtrak paint schemes, plus the Amtrak conversion to a cab control car........

I'd be in for at least 4. More if Chicagoland Metra is represented.

@Brad Kowal posted:

In one direction you have the F45 which was ordered by more road than just Santa Fe and Milwaukee Road.

Well, kinda sorta, but not quite.  Milwaukee Road didn't have any F45's.  Only the Santa Fe, Great Northern and Burlington Northern (12 of them were ordered by the GN before the merger) got them new from EMD.

Although, some F45's went on to second and third lives to various railroads.

Rusty

Last edited by Rusty Traque
@Brad Kowal posted:

Hey Guys:  How about an Amtrak F40PH?  I know this is a little off topic, but the nose looks similar....  Overland Models did not produce a lot of these.  I know one guy who has 4, two more guys that each have three, which I believe accounts for most of them.  With the Amfleets coming out and the Horizon Cars that have been out for some time, I think there might be some demand here.  I can think of 2 different Chicago-Metra paint schemes, 3 different Amtrak paint schemes, plus the Amtrak conversion to a cab control car........

What is wrong with K-Line, Lionel and MTH F40PH?

The FP45 has only been made by MTH (1st generation Premier, it's dated) and you can't count Williams horrible rendition.

...

Yes, I know they're not identical, but we're in the ballpark here.  Trucks would exist in Scott's parts bin from the SD40-2 project, and if he does Tunnel Motors he also has a frame with the right wheelbase.  Its not too much of a stretch to make the locomotives for the otherwise somewhat orphaned El Cap sets.

...

Yes, but, the expensive part, the body shell, is mostly different.  Only the cab area is the same.  The sides, the roof and the ends are different.  Don't get me wrong, I want SDP40Fs not FP45s but...  Even the first run of SDP40Fs is different from the second run.

@rdunniii posted:

Yes, but, the expensive part, the body shell, is mostly different.  Only the cab area is the same.  The sides, the roof and the ends are different.  Don't get me wrong, I want SDP40Fs not FP45s but...  Even the first run of SDP40Fs is different from the second run.

And dont forget that ATSF did buy some of those SDP40F from Amtrak and painted then in the yellow bonnet scheme.

So thats 3 schemes of Amtrak plus Santa Fe and maybe a Maersk.

I feel like this could be an opportunity for more Hi-Levels, and possibly Superliner Is. If offered, SDP40Fs should be offered with equipment to go with them imo. So far, Superliner Is have only been offered in Railking and brass.

Hi-Levels appeared in Amtrak Phases I-III, some coaches made it to Phase IV, and the lounges went to Phase VI as Parlour Cars.
Besides appearing in Phases I-VI, select Superliner I coaches have appeared in Amtrak CA, and the Surfliner paint scheme.

I feel like this could be an opportunity for more Hi-Levels, and possibly Superliner Is. If offered, SDP40Fs should be offered with equipment to go with them imo. So far, Superliner Is have only been offered in Railking and brass.

Hi-Levels appeared in Amtrak Phases I-III, some coaches made it to Phase IV, and the lounges went to Phase VI as Parlour Cars.
Besides appearing in Phases I-VI, select Superliner I coaches have appeared in Amtrak CA, and the Surfliner paint scheme.

I would for sure be in for Superliner Is.

@rdunniii posted:

Where when?  The Superliners ran with F40s from the day they were delivered.

Right, an F40 was required, but SDP40Fs did run in Superliner consists. As I understand it, the SDP40Fs that weren’t scrapped or sent to EMD to be rebuilt into F40PHRs were given the HEP pass-through treatment. Last SDP40F to leave the roster according to the Wikipedia article was in 1987.
Here’s a couple photos I found. First photo by Craig Walter, second is by Roger Puta (public domain).

60367E45-D482-4DC3-99C0-BCECCF3EE47B

2752497C-08C6-4A93-9791-83DCBE1F5FC2

Attachments

Images (2)
  • 60367E45-D482-4DC3-99C0-BCECCF3EE47B: All HEP consist. You can tell by the Phase III Hi-Levels.
  • 2752497C-08C6-4A93-9791-83DCBE1F5FC2
Last edited by GenesisFan99

Agreed.  The SDP40F did play a minor role in pulling of Superliners mainly on the Southwest Limited when mated with an F40PH for HEP.  Several got painted into the Phase III paint scheme even.

However, to get back on topic good sales on the FP45 and potentially an F45 to go with it would be the gateway to possibly getting a SDP40F to move forward.  I don't see that happening any other way.  The SDP40F is a locomotive I would like to see someday, just give it time.

I don't see 3rd Rail doing an F40PH as there have been so many done by MTH, K-Line and Lionel.  Granted none are completely correct and running qualities vary, but when I can find a mostly accurate K-line Phase II F40PH (not paint scheme but later spec version) for around $200 it is hard to justify tooling a new one at this time as it would mostly come down to the 2 rail side to carry the lion's share of the orders.  Maybe down the road?  Not that I wouldn't want several.

Cool!  thanks for the pics.  If the SDP40F is not done as part of this project, ala the tunnel motors with the SD40-2s it won't happen for the foreseeable future and never standalone.  I actually don't think there will be sufficient reservations for all of them together or separately but I sure have my fingers crossed.

@GG1 4877 posted:

If we could get the SDP40F added, I'd be in for three of those too.  I will never retire at this rate.

The real question would be; WHICH version on the SDP40F?

1) The original first order of 40 units (with the 'pointy' nose door)?

2) Subsequent orders of units without that "special" front nose?

3) Various units with different paint schemes, regardless of which order?

So, SO many options.

@Hot Water posted:

The real question would be; WHICH version on the SDP40F?

1) The original first order of 40 units (with the 'pointy' nose door)?

2) Subsequent orders of units without that "special" front nose?

3) Various units with different paint schemes, regardless of which order?

So, SO many options.

There isnt many options if you place yourself in the shoes of thr mfg/importer. You choose the model with the most paint schemes just like the GP7/9 project. So it appears the "flat nose" could win out since:

No 3 rail mfg did this type of cab- not sure about O scale.

The ATSF/ BNSF had them

The Maersk unit was painted on a flat nose unit.

Emdx Test beds #134 & #169 were also flat nose models

At least two schemes of Amtrak were painted on those flat nose units.

Looks like multiple paint scheme unit design wins!

Last edited by prrhorseshoecurve
@sdmann posted:

Hi Folks,

So many of you have suggested this model. Lets start a discussion of what versions and Liveries are wanted and I will put them up for reservation.

Lots of good discussion, even in a few unintended directions.  For the FP45 project, it appears the SDP40F and F40C are also similar in car-body and length.  An F45 and F40PH would most likely be completely separate projects if ever considered.  Both I think should be.  BUT, this is for Scott to determine.  I think what he needs to do is put all of up for consideration and see where the orders take him. 

Regarding the F40PH, while other MFG's have produced them, they have been lacking in appearance except for Overland Models in 2-Rail brass.  True even with the latest Lionel offerings.  I question whether any of these other MFG's are really competitors to Sunset.  Case in point: F7s and F3's.  Everybody has produced these in the past, yet Sunset had a very successful run in both 2 Rail and 3 Rail.  Same with the E Units.  Sunset continues to bring these out with success.

Talking about passenger trains for the Golden Gate Depot Line, NOBODY has adequately done the Superliner 1 cars.  The Overland Brass cars had twisting problems, which they corrected for the Superliner II cars.  The II cars never had any of the colorful striped paint schemes, so the Superliner I cars would be the most popular.

When somebody asks a question to a group, I normally don't encourage people to wander off topic, but since Scott should have his paint scheme information by now, I see no harm in participating in the now off topic discussion.  Since passenger trains have been mentioned; what do you guys think of the Chicago & North Western Bi-level cars?  For paint schemes you'd have CNW, at least 2 Metra Schemes and Rock Island.   Did anybody else have these?

We should also harass the man for a C&NW 400 train.  For some reason I feel we're "entitled" to one of these.

@Brad Kowal posted:

Lots of good discussion, even in a few unintended directions.  For the FP45 project, it appears the SDP40F and F40C are also similar in car-body and length.  An F45 and F40PH would most likely be completely separate projects if ever considered.  Both I think should be.  BUT, this is for Scott to determine.  I think what he needs to do is put all of up for consideration and see where the orders take him.

Regarding the F40PH, while other MFG's have produced them, they have been lacking in appearance except for Overland Models in 2-Rail brass.  True even with the latest Lionel offerings.  I question whether any of these other MFG's are really competitors to Sunset.  Case in point: F7s and F3's.  Everybody has produced these in the past, yet Sunset had a very successful run in both 2 Rail and 3 Rail.  Same with the E Units.  Sunset continues to bring these out with success.

Talking about passenger trains for the Golden Gate Depot Line, NOBODY has adequately done the Superliner 1 cars.  The Overland Brass cars had twisting problems, which they corrected for the Superliner II cars.  The II cars never had any of the colorful striped paint schemes, so the Superliner I cars would be the most popular.

When somebody asks a question to a group, I normally don't encourage people to wander off topic, but since Scott should have his paint scheme information by now, I see no harm in participating in the now off topic discussion.  Since passenger trains have been mentioned; what do you guys think of the Chicago & North Western Bi-level cars?  For paint schemes you'd have CNW, at least 2 Metra Schemes and Rock Island.   Did anybody else have these?

We should also harass the man for a C&NW 400 train.  For some reason I feel we're "entitled" to one of these.

I'd be in for the F40PH! Main reason is one 3R/GGD. The second is they are hard to find in the market.

I'd be in for bi-level cars. The Sante Fe, Amtrak Superliners, C&NW and Metra all speak to me and would order each if Scott decides to head down that path.

@Brad Kowal posted:

Lots of good discussion, even in a few unintended directions.  Talking about passenger trains for the Golden Gate Depot Line, NOBODY has adequately done the Superliner 1 cars.  The Overland Brass cars had twisting problems, which they corrected for the Superliner II cars.  The II cars never had any of the colorful striped paint schemes, so the Superliner I cars would be the most popular.

When somebody asks a question to a group, I normally don't encourage people to wander off topic, but since Scott should have his paint scheme information by now, I see no harm in participating in the now off topic discussion.  Since passenger trains have been mentioned; what do you guys think of the Chicago & North Western Bi-level cars?  For paint schemes you'd have CNW, at least 2 Metra Schemes and Rock Island.   Did anybody else have these?

We should also harass the man for a C&NW 400 train.  For some reason I feel we're "entitled" to one of these.

This should really be discussed in another thread or my "Which superliner would you choose" thread.

In regards go bi levels, im not sure about scale brass but in 3 rail MTH made several runs of the  Pullman 18" smoothside bi-levels in Metra, CNW, RI, and Amtrak.

@SPSF posted:

Sorry, But the F40PH would be a Waste for Scott to make as Atlas just got the MTH F40PH as part of their purchase and will most likely be releasing that model - Again.

Let's do a Model which has Not been done correctly in O scale such as the FP45.

Agreed in most respects with only a few exceptions:

  • The MTH version has a wildly inaccurate front pilot which I hope Atlas will fix.
  • Locomotives with the GGD drive all run well together and an F40PH leading a SDP40F would be very desirable.

FP45 is higher on my list for sure as is the SDP40F. 

@SPSF posted:

Sorry, But the F40PH would be a Waste for Scott to make as Atlas just got the MTH F40PH as part of their purchase and will most likely be releasing that model - Again.

Let's do a Model which has Not been done correctly in O scale such as the FP45.

Again, MTH is not Sunset.  Sunset is directed toward the scale end of the spectrum (be it 3 rail or 2 rail).  Even if Atlas modifies the dies and doesn't just add it to their "Industrial" line, they will have bad drives and probably still sit too high off the trucks.   

BTW: US Hobbies did the FP45.  They come up for sale quite often and sell for about $400.  US Hobbies did the F45 a bit later and had better looking fan and grille work.  Those sell for about $550.  Lots of detail parts available if somebody wants to work them over.  3 Rail electronics available for those that want to convert it to 3 Rail.  The Sunset units would be better detailed and painted, so still a benefit, but not something that hasn't been done before.

Don't be afraid of somebody getting a model they want.  Sunset can crank this stuff out for years.  It's not a situation where they can make only one more diesel.

@Brad Kowal posted:

Lots of good discussion:

Regarding the F40PH, while other MFG's have produced them, they have been lacking in appearance except for Overland Models in 2-Rail brass.  True even with the latest Lionel offerings.  I question whether any of these other MFG's are really competitors to Sunset.  Case in point: F7s and F3's.  Everybody has produced these in the past, yet Sunset had a very successful run in both 2 Rail and 3 Rail.  Same with the E Units.  Sunset continues to bring these out with success.

Note that you are comparing two different demographic bases here. The people that bought into the 3rd rail F and E units don't necessarily go into second generation diesel units. All those F and E units sold were mostly original buyer paint schemes and not secondary owners. Many modelers love to model railroads "Gplden Age" of the late 1940's to late 1950's. Scott M.had a hard time with the FP45 and SDP40F's several years ago along with trying to sell Amtrak cars- both heritage [slumber coach and sleepers] and Bi-Levels [two runs of the El Capitan Amtrak sets netted less than 20 sets made in both scale and 3 rail. How about those SD40-2's? Its been several years and "two order lifes" on EMD's most popular diesel. Only now it seems to be ready for its first production run.  Will there be a second run of SD40-2 right after or be another "FP7/SD7/SD9" one run tooling sitting on the sidelines? Is there enough non Lionel/2 rail buyers out there for the popular EMD second generation units?

When I goto 2 rail O Scale clubs I hardly see any second generation diesels running around-never mind contemporary model railroad models.

Note that you are comparing two different demographic bases here. The people that bought into the 3rd rail F and E units don't necessarily go into second generation diesel units. All those F and E units sold were mostly original buyer paint schemes and not secondary owners. Many modelers love to model railroads "Gplden Age" of the late 1940's to late 1950's. Scott M.had a hard time with the FP45 and SDP40F's several years ago along with trying to sell Amtrak cars- both heritage [slumber coach and sleepers] and Bi-Levels [two runs of the El Capitan Amtrak sets netted less than 20 sets made in both scale and 3 rail. How about those SD40-2's? Its been several years and "two order lifes" on EMD's most popular diesel. Only now it seems to be ready for its first production run.  Will there be a second run of SD40-2 right after or be another "FP7/SD7/SD9" one run tooling sitting on the sidelines? Is there enough non Lionel/2 rail buyers out there for the popular EMD second generation units?

When I goto 2 rail O Scale clubs I hardly see any second generation diesels running around-never mind contemporary model railroad models.

All valid points.  There is additional information that we do know along with information that we don't know.

With regards to clubs, they just don't work anymore.  A club matures and takes on a culture of it's own.  New people become interested, however they're told "no" so many times they eventually loose interest and go away.  There are exceptions, but too far and few between for us to use clubs as a measure of interest for the hobby.

Whenever a MFG produces a modern locomotive or car, they sell out and you don't find the stuff for sale very often.  I'm specifically thinking about the Overland Models Brass SD90MAC, AC4400 and Atlas MP15DC and SD40.  I don't want to get too deep into this discussion, however the point I'd like to make is that there are modern modelers out there.   They're just not as easy for us to see.

What we don't know is why Sunset initially had difficulty attracting orders for the SD40-2.  Was it really because of a lack of interest in a modern diesel?   I think it has more to do with the current Sunset market, than a current overall interest in models.  Unless you have an interest in the older stuff as well as the newer stuff, a modern modeler probably knows little about Sunset.  As they produce more modern models, that should change.  We will see. 

One positive note for "O" Scale:  With regards to the Chicago March O Scale Meet; more names are being added to the mailing list than those removed.  We need more of the younger segment of the hobby to attend these meets to encourage the mfg's to produce more modern models!

@GG1 4877 posted:

Agreed in most respects with only a few exceptions:

  • The MTH version has a wildly inaccurate front pilot which I hope Atlas will fix.
  • Locomotives with the GGD drive all run well together and an F40PH leading a SDP40F would be very desirable.

FP45 is higher on my list for sure as is the SDP40F.

Mth models also generally have dimensional issues and, looking at photos, I don't think the f40ph is exempt from that. That's why MTH stuff almost always looks 'off'.

Last edited by Oxolotleman
@Brad Kowal posted:

Whenever a MFG produces a modern locomotive or car, they sell out and you don't find the stuff for sale very often.  I'm specifically thinking about the Overland Models Brass SD90MAC, AC4400 and Atlas MP15DC and SD40.  I don't want to get too deep into this discussion, however the point I'd like to make is that there are modern modelers out there.   They're just not as easy for us to see.

Agree.  One model I've been wanting to get my hands on is an SD80MAC.  There are four, count 'em four, on the auction site right now and only two in the road name I'd like.  One is an earlier version from MTH that have blind inside drivers - no thanks - and both are from a less than reputable seller.  AND both are used with one going for more than original MSRP with the other very near it.

What we don't know is why Sunset initially had difficulty attracting orders for the SD40-2.  Was it really because of a lack of interest in a modern diesel?   I think it has more to do with the current Sunset market, than a current overall interest in models.  Unless you have an interest in the older stuff as well as the newer stuff, a modern modeler probably knows little about Sunset.  As they produce more modern models, that should change.  We will see.

I think you are right.  As I started to get more into the O gauge world I started to learn about the inaccuracies in some of the models from Lionel and MTH.  Don't get me wrong - they also make some EXCELLENT 3-rail models and they are definitely not the only ones that have issued less than accurate items.  Once I found out about 3rd rail and that they had an SD40-2 project, I immediately signed up for two - preordering based on their reputation.

The SD40-2 is something I saw a lot of growing up on the former PRR mainline near Lilly and Cresson PA.  I'm only now getting to the age where I have a house I own and enough savings to start building a model railroad.

@Oxolotleman posted:

Mth models also generally have dimensional issues and, looking at photos, I don't think the f40ph is exempt from that. That's why MTH stuff almost always looks 'off'.

Some do, some don't.  Their rendition of the F40PH is not perfect, but if you mount the plow, the pilot becomes a bit more passable, swinging aside.  I think the tooling was updated at some point.  The PS1 versions I've seen are not great.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErRKm2IvtAw

Also, reference this image from the MTH site:

https://mthtrains.com/sites/de...images/20-2713-1.jpg

vs. a scale drawing here from Trainiax

http://trainiax.net/drawings/5...emd-f40ph-amtk-1.GIF

THE question you have to ask yourself... this will most likely be a Kraus Maffei project numbers wise.  Are you prepared to spend $1200 per unit to get them done like the K-M folks are?  For me the answer is yes.

The Dash 9s are in the same predicament.  The FAs are slightly better off.  The SD40-2 project is better now but still short the numbers to keep them at $8-900 each.

@rdunniii posted:

THE question you have to ask yourself... this will most likely be a Kraus Maffei project numbers wise.  Are you prepared to spend $1200 per unit to get them done like the K-M folks are?  For me the answer is yes.

The Dash 9s are in the same predicament.  The FAs are slightly better off.  The SD40-2 project is better now but still short the numbers to keep them at $8-900 each.

Ouch to all of this $ information. I sure hope more reservations come in.  My number of reservations will reluctantly have to drop if the above numbers become reality. The SD40-2 just had a modest price increase and seemed to have a jump in interest that I hope equated to more reservations. I was thinking of upping my order from 3 to 4. I’m not sure that will happen with possible unit price increases. 😮😖😑☹️

Last edited by TrainBub
@rdunniii posted:

THE question you have to ask yourself... this will most likely be a Kraus Maffei project numbers wise.  Are you prepared to spend $1200 per unit to get them done like the K-M folks are?  For me the answer is yes.

The Dash 9s are in the same predicament.  The FAs are slightly better off.  The SD40-2 project is better now but still short the numbers to keep them at $8-900 each.

Santa Fe, Milwaukee Road and Wisconsin Central are popular railroads.  The FP45s lasted well into the double stack container era on Santa Fe and WC.  They were used in passenger service then later freight.  I don't think there will be a problem obtaining orders for these.  The MK locomotive???  We can argue all points forever, but it doesn't matter.  Sunset can put it on their website and see where the orders take them.

As far as the Dash-9 and SD40-2......these are locomotives for a market different than what Sunset currently has now, so it might take a while.  If there is still a lack of orders, perhaps a transition locomotive needs to be done, such as the SD45?

@Brad Kowal posted:

Santa Fe, Milwaukee Road and Wisconsin Central are popular railroads.  The FP45s lasted well into the double stack container era on Santa Fe and WC.  They were used in passenger service then later freight.  I don't think there will be a problem obtaining orders for these.  The MK locomotive???  We can argue all points forever, but it doesn't matter.  Sunset can put it on their website and see where the orders take them.

As far as the Dash-9 and SD40-2......these are locomotives for a market different than what Sunset currently has now, so it might take a while.  If there is still a lack of orders, perhaps a transition locomotive needs to be done, such as the SD45?

So, if he lists it for $800-900 and 18 months from now he's has less than, say, 250-300 reservations,  you'd prefer it just be cancelled?  Because that is what is likely to happen with those others and the E60 which is even worse off.  Maybe some of the E60 folks are willing to pay $1500+ for less than 100 models but they are not 100% of the less than 100 who have reserved them so far.

It's not how long they lasted, it's when they were mainstream, and most O gauge/scale folks aren't interested in much after about 1960s.   Which is why the GP9s did so well and people are passionate about them.   Even though every manufacturer on the planet has done them, sometimes multiple runs.

And yes Santa Fe and Milwaukee are popular.  But, I don't hear a peep asking about a Milwaukee Atlantic or F7 Hudson from steam fans.  But a 500th run of a Dreyfus Hudson,by anybody? oh yeah.  The northeast road fans are also a large part of this market and even if they are interested in more modern stuff they are not interested in western stuff.  I think Pennsylvania was one of the most popular GP9s.  I'd bet FP and F45s would get more reservations in SuzyQ than Milwaukee or Wisconsin Central.

Last edited by rdunniii
@rdunniii posted:

So, if he lists it for $800-900 and 18 months from now he's has less than, say, 250-300 reservations,  you'd prefer it just be cancelled?  Because that is what is likely to happen with those others and the E60 which is even worse off.  Maybe some of the E60 folks are willing to pay $1500+ for less than 100 models but they are not 100% of the less than 100 who have reserved them so far.

It's not how long they lasted, it's when they were mainstream, and most O gauge/scale folks aren't interested in much after about 1960s.   Which is why the GP9s did so well and people are passionate about them.   Even though every manufacturer on the planet has done them, sometimes multiple runs.

And yes Santa Fe and Milwaukee are popular.  But, I don't hear a peep asking about a Milwaukee Atlantic or F7 Hudson from steam fans.  But a 500th run of a Dreyfus Hudson,by anybody? oh yeah.  The northeast road fans are also a large part of this market and even if they are interested in more modern stuff they are not interested in western stuff.  I think Pennsylvania was one of the most popular GP9s.  I'd bet FP and F45s would get more reservations in SuzyQ than Milwaukee or Wisconsin Central.

The market surely talks via the reservations any model generates. The older guys want the early generation diesels and obviously there are enough of them to trigger a go on a model. Yes they are not that interested in more recent models - and there appears to not be enough people of Any age to launch runs of recent vintage diesels. Eastern buyers are a much larger population base so they will Always have a better chance of seeing their favorites made. That’s why we are deluged with Penn and NYC. Big roads from the east usually dominate a run and other smaller demographic roads are lucky to get included in the run.
This is just The Market we have.
The other variable is cost. The higher the number of unit that are reserved the better  pricing we see. If the number of units are weak, the run can only proceed with a price bump. We can see these differences when we compare the Krauss Maffei with the EA,E1 runs. Big difference in cost as the KM is priced to make money while selling a small number of units to a very select market. The Es have a smaller Union price as more will be made.
The E60, while popular as an Amtrak model, probably is being held back by a geographic focus in a narrow eastern corridor that is electrified. So it’s a smaller subset of a dominant area.
There’s just multiple factors that drive this market !!!!  Ages of buyers, population locations, price points per unit - all in a tug of war. ( Steam is another story - perhaps very similar.). Very simply put - show up in enough numbers and it will get done. If not enough show up / it Might get done if Everyone is willing to pay a higher price. If not, it Should Be Dropped.  IMO, removing projects not going anywhere Could help redirect dollars to other projects needing a bit of a boost the make that economic threshold to launch a model into production.  
Cheers 😜

@TrainBub posted:

The market surely talks via the reservations any model generates. The older guys want the early generation diesels and obviously there are enough of them to trigger a go on a model. Yes they are not that interested in more recent models - and there appears to not be enough people of Any age to launch runs of recent vintage diesels. Eastern buyers are a much larger population base so they will Always have a better chance of seeing their favorites made. That’s why we are deluged with Penn and NYC. Big roads from the east usually dominate a run and other smaller demographic roads are lucky to get included in the run.
This is just The Market we have.
The other variable is cost. The higher the number of unit that are reserved the better  pricing we see. If the number of units are weak, the run can only proceed with a price bump. We can see these differences when we compare the Krauss Maffei with the EA,E1 runs. Big difference in cost as the KM is priced to make money while selling a small number of units to a very select market. The Es have a smaller Union price as more will be made.
The E60, while popular as an Amtrak model, probably is being held back by a geographic focus in a narrow eastern corridor that is electrified. So it’s a smaller subset of a dominant area.
There’s just multiple factors that drive this market !!!!  Ages of buyers, population locations, price points per unit - all in a tug of war. ( Steam is another story - perhaps very similar.). Very simply put - show up in enough numbers and it will get done. If not enough show up / it Might get done if Everyone is willing to pay a higher price. If not, it Should Be Dropped.  IMO, removing projects not going anywhere Could help redirect dollars to other projects needing a bit of a boost the make that economic threshold to launch a model into production.  
Cheers 😜

Since we're talking about both the sdp40f and e60 how about something that combines the bad parts of both, the p30ch; I'm interested in those.

@carnerd3000 posted:

A bit off-topic, but does anyone know the status of the E60's? I'd like to pre-order one very soon.

I also believe the F45/FP45's could sell reasonably well, but I can understand what some of you are saying about locomotives made after the '60's.

The website says E60s are wide open for reservations.
Sunset doesn’t really do pre-orders. It’s a reservation treated as a promise to buy on arrival of the model. You’re not out $ if it doesn’t get made, and money only comes out of pocket when it arrives.

The website says E60s are wide open for reservations.
Sunset doesn’t really do pre-orders. It’s a reservation treated as a promise to buy on arrival of the model. You’re not out $ if it doesn’t get made, and money only comes out of pocket when it arrives.

My apologies, that's what I meant to say. I really want it to be produced, and I can accept the price that it is projected to be ATM. But if it ends up costing as much as the Krauss-Maffei, I'm not so sure. I know these are just comments on the internet, and ultimately Scott is the one that will make the decisions regarding the projects.

No ones reservations will be switched to a new price.  The original listing will be cancelled and a new one with a new price posted. Everyone who originally reserved will be notified.  It is then their choice.  The K-Ms at the new price survived.  Others may not.

I will be the first to admit I am clueless about what does well.  I don't understand the GP7/9s, I didn't understand the EL-2Bs, I didn't understand the Jawn Henry, I don't understand the SD40-2 or the alternative GP40-2s or the fact that adding tunnel motors might save the project. There are many more.

@rdunniii posted:

I will be the first to admit I am clueless about what does well.  I don't understand the GP7/9s, I didn't understand the EL-2Bs, I didn't understand the Jawn Henry, I don't understand the SD40-2 or the alternative GP40-2s or the fact that adding tunnel motors might save the project. There are many more.

What would make sense then?

@rdunniii posted:

So, if he lists it for $800-900 and 18 months from now he's has less than, say, 250-300 reservations,  you'd prefer it just be cancelled?  Because that is what is likely to happen with those others and the E60 which is even worse off.  Maybe some of the E60 folks are willing to pay $1500+ for less than 100 models but they are not 100% of the less than 100 who have reserved them so far.

It's not how long they lasted, it's when they were mainstream, and most O gauge/scale folks aren't interested in much after about 1960s.   Which is why the GP9s did so well and people are passionate about them.   Even though every manufacturer on the planet has done them, sometimes multiple runs.

And yes Santa Fe and Milwaukee are popular.  But, I don't hear a peep asking about a Milwaukee Atlantic or F7 Hudson from steam fans.  But a 500th run of a Dreyfus Hudson,by anybody? oh yeah.  The northeast road fans are also a large part of this market and even if they are interested in more modern stuff they are not interested in western stuff.  I think Pennsylvania was one of the most popular GP9s.  I'd bet FP and F45s would get more reservations in SuzyQ than Milwaukee or Wisconsin Central.

My preference is for everybody to get what they want and for those disinterested in a particular project to not be mad that somebody else might get something they want.  Nobody will be any worse off in their lives simply because a proposed project.

The 1960's and prior thinking fails to recognize that Weaver had successful runs with their SD40-2 and GP38-2, despite their shortcomings.  Atlas has done well with modern horsepower: SW1200, MP15DC, GP15-1, SD40, GP60, Dash 8-40BW, Dash 8-32BWH, Dash 8-40CW.  This stuff does sell.  Sunset has yet to produce a model in this category, so it is understandable that the market doesn't YET look to Sunset.  That will change over time as Sunset starts to produce products that interest the younger segment of the hobby. For the most part people pay attention to what interests them.  So some might be surprised that the aforementioned Milwaukee Atlantic and F7 Hudson have been done twice in scale: Weaver and Overland.  As far "Western Stuff" Santa Fe and Union Pacific have always had strong sales.   So there:-)

Regardless of this, that or the other thing; our opinions mean nothing.  It's all about the reservations.

@Brad Kowal posted:

My preference is for everybody to get what they want and for those disinterested in a particular project to not be mad that somebody else might get something they want.  Nobody will be any worse off in their lives simply because a proposed project.

The 1960's and prior thinking fails to recognize that Weaver had successful runs with their SD40-2 and GP38-2, despite their shortcomings.  Atlas has done well with modern horsepower: SW1200, MP15DC, GP15-1, SD40, GP60, Dash 8-40BW, Dash 8-32BWH, Dash 8-40CW.  This stuff does sell.  Sunset has yet to produce a model in this category, so it is understandable that the market doesn't YET look to Sunset.  That will change over time as Sunset starts to produce products that interest the younger segment of the hobby. For the most part people pay attention to what interests them.  So some might be surprised that the aforementioned Milwaukee Atlantic and F7 Hudson have been done twice in scale: Weaver and Overland.  As far "Western Stuff" Santa Fe and Union Pacific have always had strong sales.   So there:-)

Regardless of this, that or the other thing; our opinions mean nothing.  It's all about the reservations.

I'm interested in all eras really.  I don't know how many people fall into this camp, but I'm a fan of projects that have either never been done - or things with wide use that have never been done all that accurately - or we haven't seen in a very long time.

With over 4000 produced, and a model that started out almost 50 years ago now, I'm surprised the SD40-2s aren't more popular.  I'm not into electric engines all that much, but any of the older Amtrak mainline diesels I'll probably reserve, though I'd prefer something that was in phase II or III to go with my Amfleet set.  I would settle for Phase IV, but I'm not a fan of the Phase I paint.  That said the from what I know (which is very little) the FP45 never wore any Amtrak paint scheme.

@rplst8 posted:

I'm interested in all eras really.  I don't know how many people fall into this camp, but I'm a fan of projects that have either never been done - or things with wide use that have never been done all that accurately - or we haven't seen in a very long time.

With over 4000 produced, and a model that started out almost 50 years ago now, I'm surprised the SD40-2s aren't more popular.  I'm not into electric engines all that much, but any of the older Amtrak mainline diesels I'll probably reserve, though I'd prefer something that was in phase II or III to go with my Amfleet set.  I would settle for Phase IV, but I'm not a fan of the Phase I paint.  That said the from what I know (which is very little) the FP45 never wore any Amtrak paint scheme.

I don’t get that the SD40-2s aren’t more popular either. 😖

@rdunniii posted:

The fact that we are even having these discussions shows how far O Scale is still evolving, bit by bit.  Would we be having them at all if it was only Atlas, Lionel, MTH and brass?  The others who tried in the past came and went

Awesome!

So pleased  / grateful with the wonderful product Scott has been delivering. I want quicker product delivery (of course no quality compromises) on one hand but on the other hand don’t want it all at once as it keeps me very broke. 😳🤣🤣🤣  And of course the engine and passenger car factories can only gin out so much !!!!!  Somehow I imagine the deliveries would be a bit smoother if Scott were able to be onsite for QC.
3rd Rail / Sunset should be able to grow into a more era-diverse offering as more people discover your products. The flexibility of a small company that can maneuver to meet specific demand is definitely beneficial. Accessibility to the decision makers is possible is a Big Plus too - and getting a reply !!! Wow !!!  
For YEARS I tried to get MTH to do a Mikadopalooza - a big run of generic black or black and silver Mikados so they could offer lots of underrepresented Roads. Just change the road name and a number a viola lots of satisfied buyers. I Really wanted a nice MP steam engine. Never a reply. Stunning silence !!! Crickets!!!!!!!!!!  I may not be able to ever get Scott to do steam in my favorite MP, MKT, or Frisco - but along the way Scott and I will have a dialog. That’s Big to me !!!!!  (And yes I fell out on my chair when Scott offered the T&P steam offering - of course I got one of those beauties !!!!!!!!!!!! So Grateful!!!! ) Cheers

@TrainBub posted:

I don’t get that the SD40-2s aren’t more popular either. 😖

Well because the market pretty much has been flooded with them, especially the 3 rail side. Weaver did a couple of runs B4 selling the tooling to MTH. MTH did them in PS2 and PS3 with 3/2 trucks. Omi did them in brass, kts from lws, clw and others. ATLAS O did the similar SD40. Lionel has also made both the SD40-2 and the SD40.

With 3rd rail trying to gather up reservations for a loco thats been done at $750-800 ea, I'm sure there are people out there thinking they can buy used and detail one up cheaper than the new one. This cuts into firm reservations.

Well because the market pretty much has been flooded with them, especially the 3 rail side. Weaver did a couple of runs B4 selling the tooling to MTH. MTH did them in PS2 and PS3 with 3/2 trucks. Omi did them in brass, kts from lws, clw and others. ATLAS O did the similar SD40. Lionel has also made both the SD40-2 and the SD40.

The MTH and Lionel offerings are so inaccurate they are borderline caricatures of the real thing.  No offense to either of them overall, they have made great models of other diesels - just not this one.

As for Atlas's SD40 - I'm sure it's great as are my Atlas SD35s, but an SD40 is quite a bit different looks wise.  The SD40-2 is a very unique looking prototype with the big front and rear porches.

To anyone that owns an existing SD40 or SD40-2 from the other manufacturers, I guarantee an accurately done SD40-2 will look like nothing else on your layout.  I think this is what makes the FP45 so compelling too as it's a very different looking prototype, even though it saw limited use.

Well because the market pretty much has been flooded with them, especially the 3 rail side. Weaver did a couple of runs B4 selling the tooling to MTH. MTH did them in PS2 and PS3 with 3/2 trucks. Omi did them in brass, kts from lws, clw and others. ATLAS O did the similar SD40. Lionel has also made both the SD40-2 and the SD40.

With 3rd rail trying to gather up reservations for a loco thats been done at $750-800 ea, I'm sure there are people out there thinking they can buy used and detail one up cheaper than the new one. This cuts into firm reservations.

Perhaps I should have been more succinct in my comment and said - I don’t get that the 3rd Rail SD40-2s aren’t more popular - are short on reservations.  I didn’t know the MTH was Weaver old tooling. They were ok but sat way too tall (a big reason I Gave Up buying MTH diesels - and rolling stock and began selling them off). Atlas product was Always nice but MIA for what 10 years or so now. Cant buy what’s not produced. Lionel - hmm. Too much out of the box broken or doesn’t work and oft times no customer support. The others I’m not familiar with. Sure you can troll the used market. I’ve done that for scarce runs. Trick out a plain model ? Sure if that’s your thing. Something for everyone.
Yes. Lots of previous SD40-2 models are out there from previous runs and can be had cheaper. Perhaps I simply view the 3rd Rail model will be a Serious Reliable Upgrade to previous efforts and am willing to pay for that upgrade. It’s about, choice, viewpoint, perception, and (expected) goods delivered. All this IMHO.
And so far not enough reservations to make the project “a go”. 😖                  Time will tell.
Cheers

Last edited by TrainBub
@Oxolotleman posted:

Since we're talking about both the sdp40f and e60 how about something that combines the bad parts of both, the p30ch; I'm interested in those.

The issue with the P30ch is its only 1 road with two paint schemes. While I would jump to reserve two, there are not a lot of older GE fans. However one can try and see.

The SDP40F has several paint schemes in Amtrak plus being sold off to the Santa Fe as well as one painted in Maersk and painted in at least two test bed paint schemes by EMD, makes this unit more enticing to make and find buyers!

@rdunniii posted:

THE question you have to ask yourself... this will most likely be a Kraus Maffei project numbers wise.  Are you prepared to spend $1200 per unit to get them done like the K-M folks are?  For me the answer is yes.

The Dash 9s are in the same predicament.  The FAs are slightly better off.  The SD40-2 project is better now but still short the numbers to keep them at $8-900 each.

The only way anyone is going to find out if these models sell is update the 3rd rail website and start taking reservations. It will be at least two years anyway before an announcement that this project is a go/no go for launch.

Well because the market pretty much has been flooded with them, especially the 3 rail side. Weaver did a couple of runs B4 selling the tooling to MTH. MTH did them in PS2 and PS3 with 3/2 trucks. Omi did them in brass, kts from lws, clw and others. ATLAS O did the similar SD40. Lionel has also made both the SD40-2 and the SD40.

With 3rd rail trying to gather up reservations for a loco thats been done at $750-800 ea, I'm sure there are people out there thinking they can buy used and detail one up cheaper than the new one. This cuts into firm reservations.

If that had any relevance then the GP7/9s would have been in the same situations.

I wonder if a live voting/reservation form with instant runoff (2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. choices) would help matters.

If people could see how close something was to meeting a go/no-go threshold, they might be inclined to throw their hat into the ring to buy.  Additionally, a site that constantly updates with the numbers could tally the alternate choices to say, OK, XYZ version won't get made, but we have enough 1st choices and 2nd choices of road ABC to get it done.

@rdunniii posted:

If that had any relevance then the GP7/9s would have been in the same situations.

Not quite because the GP7 offered especially for the PRR were "torpedo tube" geeps, never offered in 3 rail or 2 rail that I am aware of.

IMG_161860049212F20210416_145616

The GP9's well previous 3 rail models had too many mistakes or not detailed enough or too delicate/underperforming or had the "china drive" syndrome that many 2 railers are not happy about

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@GG1 4877 posted:

For early Amtrak there are photos showing leased FP45s and F45s in consists with SDP40Fs.  One of my favorite consists is a photo showing a Warbonnet FP45 leading an as delivered blue and yellow F45, followed by a SDP40F pulling the Southwest Limited.  While it seems like a lot of HP, three units were common when ATSF was pulling the combined El Capitan / Super Chief.

Did some of the ATSF F45's have pass through steam lines?

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