I received my L&N GP7 2 Rail Number 400. My only regret is I did not order a 3 Rail version too. This is my first 3rd Rail Locomotive. If it runs as good as it looks I got a winner. I have been collection 2 Rail L&N and Southern rolling stock since 2008. I am planning a small 1 switch shelf layout to enjoy my small 2 Rail collection.
@sdmann posted:If you google GT GP9s I see black cab roofs on several engines, but who am I to judge.
https://www.google.com/search?...imgrc=vn-KxCB0KhU_2M
Probably painted that way to protect against rust in their later years. I can't post those pictures here due to IP rules but I put the link up there. The return policy is in your paperwork. There were only 3 made, and I have someone waiting for one to become available. I am sorry your not happy with how we chose to paint them. But I am sure we can find a good home for her.
Hmmmm, me thinks he is talking about the lack of the bell on the long hood and the air tanks on the roof. No????
Awesome 
@I'd rather be ice fishing posted:I am thinking the gp7 is a fantasy scheme? Can any c&o experts chime in? I think the gp9 looks good...but the 7 floored me with the dynamic brakes and low number, a google search did not help me..
C & O definitely had GP7s with dynamic brakes...
https://www.railpictures.net/photo/238488/
https://www.railpictures.net/photo/552839/
https://www.railpictures.net/photo/626117/
https://www.railpictures.net/photo/313654/
The number does seem low though. Most pictures I’ve seen were 15xx and 57xx - 58xx series.
@I'd rather be ice fishing posted:I am thinking the gp7 is a fantasy scheme? Can any c&o experts chime in? I think the gp9 looks good...but the 7 floored me with the dynamic brakes and low number, a google search did not help me..
The lowest number I see on the C&O GP7 roster is 1503 (of the 114 GP7s they had). Not sure what the no. 246 represents.
BTW, the paint on the left side of the rear of the engine shown in one of your pictures (see below) looks somewhat uneven. Is that just something with the photo?
@rdunniii posted:Hmmmm, me thinks he is talking about the lack of the bell on the long hood and the air tanks on the roof. No????
No. Me thinks what you thinks is not what he's talking about. Besides the black roof, he specifically mentioned his objections only to the quality of the lettering and to the wrong colored paint on the ends.
@breezinup posted:The lowest number I see on the C&O GP7 roster is 1503 (of the 114 GP7s they had). Not sure what the no. 246 represents.
BTW, the paint on the left side of the rear of the engine shown in one of your pictures (see below) looks somewhat uneven. Is that just something with the photo?
If you mean the steps that is just glare from my bad photos. the yellow stripes are rather poorly done and not centered where the v starts though..My books don't mention any numbers below 5800 for the gp7. but I wanted to ask as I am not a c&o expert..
@rplst8 posted:C & O definitely had GP7s with dynamic brakes...
https://www.railpictures.net/photo/238488/
https://www.railpictures.net/photo/552839/
https://www.railpictures.net/photo/626117/
https://www.railpictures.net/photo/313654/
The number does seem low though. Most pictures I’ve seen were 15xx and 57xx - 58xx series.
I did know some of the gp7s had dynamic brakes but was disappointed because the model illustrated by sunset did not have them and I wanted it to contrast to the gp9 with dynamic brakes, that is not the deal breaker that the fantasy number is though..I have emailed Scott. I just had the idea these all were to be based faithfully to the prototypes, I'm sure all will be resolved.
https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...1#154730474185648651
I've been a member of the GTW Historical Society and worked with Atlas, MTH, Weaver, and Lionel on GTW models in the past.
The standard GTW locomotive paint specs. are blue car body with red ends.
They got rusty and dirty alright, (like the one below) but the roofs weren't painted black.
Fresh paint. Blue roof.
I didn't see any black roofs in the posted google search link.
I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, I'm really not.
I just don't want any other manufacturers who may be viewing this or see the 3rd rail model that black roofs were correct.
I'll stop my foaming now... 🤣
I was just really looking forward to having a GTW GP9 from 3rd Rail
Thanks for the no-hassle refund Scott.
I appreciate it.
@sdmann posted:If you google GT GP9s I see black cab roofs on several engines, but who am I to judge.
https://www.google.com/search?...imgrc=vn-KxCB0KhU_2M
Probably painted that way to protect against rust in their later years. I can't post those pictures here due to IP rules but I put the link up there. The return policy is in your paperwork. There were only 3 made, and I have someone waiting for one to become available. I am sorry your not happy with how we chose to paint them. But I am sure we can find a good home for her.
Some also did have the more squared off and taller “GT”
https://images.app.goo.gl/mRGhAFfi9w9vaBtw6
And white on black number boards
The Grand Trunk Western 'GT' logo looks distorted on the model shown.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/57688015@N08/5521195265
Andrew
The appearance needs to be focused on the GTW 4400 series.
Andrew
Can the GT logo be removed?
Perhaps a decal can be applied over it.
Andrew
http://www.rrpicturearchives.n...ture.aspx?id=1411182
This is a good photo of GTW 4439.
Notice the logo and the number boards.
Andrew
The number chosen could have been GTW 4930 with the black number boards and white letters
https://www.flickr.com/photos/irvinle1/39477013261/
The red color is how the bright orange-red looks in shadows.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/irvinle1/12917809265/
Andrew
This website has a photo of GTW 4432 for comparison.
http://www.railroadmichigan.com/grandtrunk.html
Andrew
Gotta love when all the “experts” want to throw in their 10 cents after the models show up!
Scott does his best and is in a whole different realm of accuracy and customer service than anybody else in O scale. 50 some odd variations with countless era and road specific details! Cut the guy some slack. If your not happy, he will take care of things one way or another!
And if your REALLY not happy, then have fun waiting till 2031 when the next Atlas engines are scheduled to show up 
@BigJohn&theWork posted:Gotta love when all the “experts” want to throw in their 10 cents after the models show up!
Scott does his best and is in a whole different realm of accuracy and customer service than anybody else in O scale. 50 some odd variations with countless era and road specific details! Cut the guy some slack. If your not happy, he will take care of things one way or another!
And if your REALLY not happy, then have fun waiting till 2031 when the next Atlas engines are scheduled to show up
Or pay someone to paint it the way you want it and not hope the manufacture does it right.
@rplst8 posted:Some also did have the more squared off and taller “GT”
https://images.app.goo.gl/mRGhAFfi9w9vaBtw6
And white on black number boards
The logos were standardized with only two variations. None looked like the one on this model.
The 1960's era Black & Red scheme used black number boards with white letters.
All post-1973 GTW units in the Blue & Red scheme had white number boards.
The GP38 you linked to with black number boards was a repair job by the Illinois Central shops in Homewood.
This unit was repaired after the GTW was taken over by CN.
@falconservice posted:The red color is how the bright orange-red looks in shadows.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/irvinle1/12917809265/
Andrew
It may be possible to find a rare photo that appears to show that, but this really has no bearing on, and is not an excuse for, the fact that the cherry red paint used on the ends of the 3rd Rail model is nowhere close to the prototypical color used by the GTW.
That said, as everyone knows, there are a lot of moving parts in this manufacturing method, working with a Far East manufacturer doing numerous different models with different paint schemes, as Scott has mentioned, and sometimes unplanned "stuff" happens. Goes with the territory, both for the company selling the engine, and, it's apparent, for the customer buying it. At some point, an undertaking can become too large for the particular manufacturing method to handle, and mistakes may get made. When that threshold is reached in this type of production, I don't know, but maybe it was.
@Bruk posted:Or pay someone to paint it the way you want it and not hope the manufacture does it right.
There is no such thing as right with models, just close enough to right which is subjective. If you feel they aren’t close enough once they’re made then the best that can happen is good customer service and with Scott you can count on that. The next step would be an improvement if there is a second run which you can also feel pretty good about with 3rd rail/GGD products if second runs happen.
But I was getting more at the fact that all these GT&W historians came out of the woodwork after the models arrived. If you have a specific model that you have a vested interest in being “right” then offer your time and knowledge up in the design process... or don’t and take your refund and be on your way (which is what the guy ended up doing). Had the GT&W historian who has seemingly worked with every other company, done the same for his own roadname with 3rd rail, it would seem we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
@BigJohn&theWork posted:There is no such thing as right with models, just close enough to right which is subjective. If you feel they aren’t close enough once they’re made then the best that can happen is good customer service and with Scott you can count on that. The next step would be an improvement if there is a second run which you can also feel pretty good about with 3rd rail/GGD products if second runs happen.
But I was getting more at the fact that all these GT&W historians came out of the woodwork after the models arrived. If you have a specific model that you have a vested interest in being “right” then offer your time and knowledge up in the design process... or don’t and take your refund and be on your way (which is what the guy ended up doing). Had the GT&W historian who has seemingly worked with every other company, done the same for his own roadname with 3rd rail, it would seem we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
I did contact Scott.
Right after he said they were doing the run.
Over the course of two years.
I never received an answer.
Save your lecture for someone else.
@BigJohn&theWork posted:There is no such thing as right with models, just close enough to right which is subjective. If you feel they aren’t close enough once they’re made then the best that can happen is good customer service and with Scott you can count on that. The next step would be an improvement if there is a second run which you can also feel pretty good about with 3rd rail/GGD products if second runs happen.
But I was getting more at the fact that all these GT&W historians came out of the woodwork after the models arrived. If you have a specific model that you have a vested interest in being “right” then offer your time and knowledge up in the design process... or don’t and take your refund and be on your way (which is what the guy ended up doing). Had the GT&W historian who has seemingly worked with every other company, done the same for his own roadname with 3rd rail, it would seem we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
Excellent Comment Big John !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 100% with you !!! 👍😬
@richtrow posted:I did contact Scott.
Right after he said they were doing the run.
Over the course of two years.
I never received an answer.
Save your lecture for someone else.
He’s a busy guy running a small buisness. Sometimes a follow up email or two are required to get his attention (Kinda like posting the same thing multiple times in this thread).
But you got your refund, someone else will get some much discussed GT&W geeps, and life goes on.
I’m not trying to beat a dead horse either. There were some obvious shortcomings on that roadname and it’s now been well established.
I just can’t stand all the negativity around what is such a fantastic run of engines that no one else in their wildest dreams would even attempt... and I’d like him to keep attempting such ambitious runs in the future.
@BigJohn&theWork posted:Gotta love when all the “experts” want to throw in their 10 cents after the models show up!
@BigJohn&theWork posted:But I was getting more at the fact that all these GT&W historians came out of the woodwork after the models arrived. If you have a specific model that you have a vested interest in being “right” then offer your time and knowledge up in the design process....
Well, you can't really evaluate a model until you see what the finished product looks like, i.e., after the models show up, so it's hardly unexpected for people to critique a model after they actually see it.
Also, as to something as obvious as the cherry red paint on the ends of the GTW model, how many customers would have anticipated that an error like that could have been made? And who could have anticipated that the roof would end up being painted black? To what extent does the consumer have a responsibility to monitor every aspect of the design and overseas production planning, or else accept whatever he gets without complaint?
Personally, I don't think Rich (who critiqued his GTW model) was being negative. He was gracious to Scott, and simply pointed out the things he saw were incorrect in the model, and said he was disappointed by them. So what? If someone sees errors in his model, there's nothing wrong with pointing them out. They should be pointed out. Some people may want to label such comments as "being negative." I don't see it that way at all. A critique and negativism are different things entirely.
The Grand Trunk Western 1970 to 1990 scheme for the GP9 locomotives is very distinct and well documented in many books and on many websites.
The numberboards are the design that were applied to the black GTW locomotives between 1960-1970.
It does not match the much more accurate Lionel GTW SD38 that was produced and sold in 2020.
Andrew
@breezinup posted:Well, you can't really evaluate a model until you see what the finished product looks like, i.e., after the models show up, so it's hardly unexpected for people to critique a model after they actually see it.
Also, as to something as obvious as the cherry red paint on the ends of the GTW model, how many customers would have anticipated that an error like that could have been made? And who could have anticipated that the roof would end up being painted black? To what extent does the consumer have a responsibility to monitor every aspect of the design and overseas production planning, or else accept whatever he gets without complaint?
You actually can. You can involve yourself in the design process, especially if you have a unique skill to bring to the table; such as expertise on paint tones.
I seem to recall this same paint color discussion every time a new product comes out...
The actual color tone as people perceive it, view it, and remember it is subjective. It changes over the years, looks different in different photos and yes can even look different on drift cards compared to the brand new painted prototype. It can even look different on 2 different engines painted with the same paint if the primer was applied in different conditions. There are endless factors which effect paint color.
That’s only one part of the conversation. The next is lighting. I believe you have read this before as excellently explained by Rusty Tarque.
Reflect back on everything that has happened in our world since these models were announced. Consider the size of the company and the tireless efforts by many (in o some cases through countless hours of unpaid research or contribution of information). Consider the incredible scale of what was accomplished in this production run. Scott bends over backwards to bring us the very best AND he makes it right when people are unhappy regardless of the merit of their grievance.
It really comes down to, you either like the color tones of the models you have personally purchased and are holding in your hands or you don’t. Same for all other aspects of the model. If you don’t like it, Scott goes way out of his way to make sure your are satisfied in the form of a full refund and I believe even covers the return shipping (I don’t know for absolute certain as I have never returned a model to 3rd rail).
Then someone else who thought they would never see such a uniquely detailed model and missed out on the reservation will have the lucky chance to purchase it. However, it really is a shame when people who have not purchased it or been involved in the design process whatsoever, ruin that excitement by doing something like endlessly trolling subjective paint tones.
This whole thing is supposed to be fun, exciting, and for many a brief escape from the troubles of the world. Don’t be the guy that ruins that excitement for potential new customers or those of us who are longtime loyal customers of GGD/3rd rail. I’ve got a lot of one off things I would love to see Scott make someday as many of his customers do. Please don’t get in the way of that. If it’s not good enough for you, then build it and paint it yourself.
@falconservice posted:It does not match the much more accurate Lionel GTW SD38 that was produced and sold in 2020.
Except that red doesn’t match either, the logo still doesn’t look correct, and trucks don’t extend under the steps.
Well, I'm not the one who brought up the paint issue. And noone's doing any trolling. Not everyone looks at things through rose-colored glasses. If someone critiques something, you shouldn't let it spoil your fun, but if you want to criticize those who discuss issues, and paint that (sorry) as trolling, you're free to do that. You may have missed comments made earlier. Noone's blaming anyone. There's nothing easy about what Scott's doing, and everyone loves what he does. He works hard to give customers great products that noone else can, or does. But saying an occasional color is off has nothing to do with that. LOTS of people have been criticizing Lionel of late for their wrong colors. Does that mean they're "trolling?" Nope. The point is to call attention to things that can be improved, for the purpose of making them better.
Well, enough of all this, at least for me. You do have some valid points, at least to a point. But my Soo Line Geep is supposed to come in tomorrow; if it's painted purple, I may mention it.
@BigJohn&theWork posted:...If it’s not good enough for you, then build it and paint it yourself.
Yeah... whatever happened to doing stuff like that? 🙂
Mark in Oregon
I am mainly getting at the detrimental and skewed image this thread paints to new comers to 3rd rail or those who are eagerly awaiting geeps in the mail. I’ve got no problem with criticism but when a thread is posted about a product with 50 some odd variants and multiple pages of it are people rehashing a situation which was quickly addressed by Scott that represents a minuscule fraction of the production, it’s not accomplishing anything productive. I’d like more people to turn towards Scott’s products which ultimately helps his buisness and opens up the potential for more unique o scale models to be brought to market.
You are free to post whatever you want. If you want to criticize, go ahead. If you want to do the paint color thing, go ahead and I’ll continue to point out how pointless it is to do so. It is trolling when you do it every time a new product shows up and the same color/light debate is rehashed.
I’m just saying it’s not productive as it wrongfully turns people away or makes them more hesitant to purchase from a company they are just finding out about when they see all the incessant criticism that is not actually representative of the production run. What is productive is to email Scott and give him your criticism directly if you think it is warranted. If he receives enough of the same thoughts from people, it may help improve a future run and if it is just your perception of something, then it does not detrimentally effect the unique buisness that he has built up.
If you look hard enough, there is something wrong with every model you own and there always will be. Telling the world about it is not going to help but telling the guy that designs and imports them may just help.
When it comes to Lionel or anyone else, I vote with my dollars. Also of note, Lionel’s success as a buisness is not dependent on the prototypical accuracy of their high end models but more on how many ready to run sets they can sell. Some bad press about prototypical accuracy is not going to do all that much to Lionel.
@BigJohn&theWork posted:I’m just saying it’s not productive as it wrongfully turns people away or makes them more hesitant to purchase from a company they are just finding out about when they see all the incessant criticism that is not actually representative of the production run. What is productive is to email Scott and give him your criticism directly if you think it is warranted. If he receives enough of the same thoughts from people, it may help improve a future run and if it is just your perception of something, then it does not detrimentally effect the unique buisness that he has built up.
If you look hard enough, there is something wrong with every model you own and there always will be. Telling the world about it is not going to help but telling the guy that designs and imports them may just help.
When Scott did the E7s there was a paint problem with the NYC versions (on the first run). Inside the lightning stripe it was silver instead of gray. Thankfully, there were criticisms on this forum and I found out about it. I was on the fence on getting one but after hearing that I was glad I didn't order one. However for the second run Scott announced that the paint problem would be taken care of and I ordered one. I got it and it was perfect. I was very glad it worked out for me the way it did. I have yet to paint a model but I would not want my first paint job to the NYC Lightning Stripe scheme. All I am saying is that I don't think it is bad if someone politely posts criticism of any given model. It serves to educate everyone on that particular model not just now but also if the model comes up for sale on the secondary market years later. I was not turned away from Scott/3rd Rail products because of the criticism of NYC E7 on this forum. In fact the publicity of the E7s pushed me over the edge to wanting to buy one and I said to myself if there is a second run and the NYC paint is corrected I am definitely getting one which was exactly what happened. Hey, no train company is perfect. I know Scott makes a great product and a mishap once in a while will not turn me off to his products.
As for these GP9s I am sorry I didn't order one. I really like them. They look very realistic the way they sit on the trucks. I don't dislike the China Drive as much as other 2 railers but they always seem to sit a little too high on the trucks for me. Scott's drive system sits at the right height to my eye. My opinion. If there is a second run I will probably order one depending on the road names available.
@Ryan Selvius posted:I hope another run will be in the future. I need some SP geeps and SD-7’s or -9’s. I’m just finally getting back to a position where I can once again spend money on trains. Been stuck on the sidelines for 9 or 10 years and missed out on a lot of cool stuff. Some of it is rather hard to find now.
Yea...tell me about it! I missed out on the FP-7 and the SD7's as well as the GGD congo set!
It appears I waded in on a Lionel conversation.
On the 3 Rail Traditonal Toy Trains Section.
- Crank
You can always come to OGR for comedy!
Indeed my friend. Please stop me if I ever attempt to write an honest review of a released product here.
- Crank
Not wanting to derail this thread, I posted photos of the PRR GP7 and GP 9 in this weekend's photo fun thread
@I'd rather be ice fishing posted:I am thinking the gp7 is a fantasy scheme? Can any c&o experts chime in? I think the gp9 looks good...but the 7 floored me with the dynamic brakes and low number, a google search did not help me..
The C&O Historical Society published the book Chesapeake and Ohio Diesel Locomotives some decades ago. This is the best source for C&O diesel numbering, paint schemes, details, etc. All the GP-7's the C&O ordered in the paint scheme that's on your GP-7 were numbered between 5700 and 5797. Also none had dynamic brakes. The number appears to be an error. The presence of dynamic brakes appear to be a problem with too many variations amongst too many road names for the builder to agree to.
I can comment in more detail about what I see is right and wrong about your models but I didn't order any of these or get involved in the design process so I really don't have any skin in this. I already had four Atlas GP-9's and didn't need any more.
If you want, you can drop me an email and I can go into how the models compare with what's in the C&O diesel book.
Ken
@John Sethian posted:Not wanting to derail this thread, I posted photos of the PRR GP7 and GP 9 in this weekend's photo fun thread
NICE!!. Mine are Out for Delivery🤗🤗
@kanawha posted:The C&O Historical Society published the book Chesapeake and Ohio Diesel Locomotives some decades ago. This is the best source for C&O diesel numbering, paint schemes, details, etc. All the GP-7's the C&O ordered in the paint scheme that's on your GP-7 were numbered between 5700 and 5797. Also none had dynamic brakes. The number appears to be an error. The presence of dynamic brakes appear to be a problem with too many variations amongst too many road names for the builder to agree to.
I can comment in more detail about what I see is right and wrong about your models but I didn't order any of these or get involved in the design process so I really don't have any skin in this. I already had four Atlas GP-9's and didn't need any more.
If you want, you can drop me an email and I can go into how the models compare with what's in the C&O diesel book.
Ken
Thank you for your reply, I just wanted to make sure i was not missing some obscure prototype or something, I must say no sunset bashing here as scott has stated happy to take back but I needed some c&o advice which I got. Discouraging how some always jump into these threads and say "your problem could be worse" or "if you dont like it paint it yourself". A premium product is not supposed to be inaccurate or need painting but maybe i am insane for thinking that.
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