3D73CD7F-7916-4B50-AA37-69581954B9BF5F0367AC-BE64-4C8B-B32A-07D86DDC8730947AF7E0-54D5-4E08-AD57-139CD177381EB79A165E-2B0B-4E87-BD7B-F55F4865E02ELooking for help with my 3rd rail nyc super Hudson.  Two questions here.

 

Question #1

how is the chuff produced and how does the smoke unit chuff in sync.  The engine I purchased does not have the original eob from tas .  I am working to upgrade it to cruise commander.  The current set up is using a reed switch under the tender, but I would like to use the cams and micro switches in the engine.  It appears that the grey wire out of my 10 wire harness is the one that connects to the micro switches when I manually actuate them and reference ac neutral, but each one only seems to work depending on the 2/4 chuff switch.  Does one micro switch have a 4 lob cam and the other micro switch have a 2 lob cam?  Does the cruise commander use a ac neutral reference through the micro switch?  Does the Tas smoke unit use the same neutral reference the chuff Uses to produce smoke in sync?

2nd question.  How does the boiler come off the engine to see the micro switches?  I do not see any obvious  large screws like on an mth steamer.

 

Thanks

Mike

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Original Post

That is so funny.  I have the exact engine disassembled for upgrades.  To remove the boiler/cab, remove the front truck.  One brass screw holds the boiler in front.  The two screws next to the rear connector hold the back end.

as for the chuffing, there’s two micro switches.  One for two chuffs per rev, and another for four chuffs per rev.  I have removed the selector switch and hardwired for four chuffs.  Done the same with the smoke unit switch.  Removed and hardwire since I only run command.  The turbo smoke unit is connected to the chuff micro switch. Oh yeah, micro switches and cam lobs are on the front driver.

Im installing GRJ super chuffer and fixing a rear driver that out of quarter.  Keeping EOB as it works just fine, and will be changing the railsounds.

Last edited by superwarp1

Gary,

Thanks for the quick reply!  You were spot on, and it came apart much easier then I thought.  What is the advantage of the super chuffer over the oem in the locomotive today ( i thought it also puffed the smoke).  

Did you make any changes to the tender for allow the rear coupler some room for more side to side movement?

Thanks

Mike

Hump Yard Mike posted:

Gary,

Thanks for the quick reply!  You were spot on, and it came apart much easier then I thought.  What is the advantage of the super chuffer over the oem in the locomotive today ( i thought it also puffed the smoke).  

Did you make any changes to the tender for allow the rear coupler some room for more side to side movement?

Thanks

Mike

I purchased my engine used (Used to be Hot Water's engine).  It is stiff through 0-72 curves.  Had the same issue with my 3rdrail Niagara PT tender.  I'm going to put one of the flanged wheels in the back and move one of the blind wheel up front.  I'll take pics, also if there's any bushings I'll remove them so it's more flexible through curves.  Hot Water had this engine converted to Kadee so no electro lobster claw.

As for super chuffers benefits.  Watch my videos.

 

Might I ask your intentions with this engine?  Just seeing how it ticks, or do you want to change something.

Gary,

I bought the engine at York.  After getting home and running it, it seemed to have no cruise.  I took it apart and found there had been a board swap and it only had the AC/DC commander with out cruise and only two chuffs triggered off of a reed relay under the tender.  I’m working through the cruise commander upgrade and trying to get back to four chuffs through the micro switches.

I have upgraded a lot of my older mth engines to ps2/ps3, but have very little experience with the Lionel upgrades.  I appreciate your help!

Mike

Last edited by Hump Yard Mike
Hump Yard Mike posted:

Gary,

I bought the engine at York under the impression it was new (or close to new) with the original electronics including tas cruise on it.  After getting home and running it, it seemed to have no cruise.  I took it apart and found there had been a board swap and it only had the AC/DC commander with out cruise and only two chuffs triggered off of a reed relay under the tender.  I’m working through the cruise commander upgrade and trying to get back to four chuffs through the micro switches.

I have upgraded a lot of my older mth engines to ps2/ps3, but have very little experience with the Lionel upgrades.  I appreciate your help!

Mike

Did the PO retain the TAS motherboard or was that replaced with the DC Commander? How about the sound boards? Are those the original audio and audio power board on a new motherboard or a new ERR Railsounds board? At this point to get cruise you only need an ERR Cruise M.

The TAS motherboard took the chuff switch closures and separated it for both the chuff input and smoke fan. If the TAS motherboard has been replaced you will have to either provide a buffer circuit to drive both or use John's super chuffer which also has that capability.

Pete

Mike can you give a better pic of the electronics in the tender?  You may have cruise and it may just be off.  From what I can tell looks like you have the ERR Railsounds board mated to a ERR board of somekind.

So you are stuck at two chuffs, the switch under the cab doesn't switch back and forth from four to two chuffs?

Not sure what Pete is saying.  ERR cruise commander will have no issue using the micro switches for chuff.  The way this 3rdrail engine is wired, is the turbo smoke unit got it's chuff trigger directly from the micro switch one wire lead to the turbo smoke unit, the other to the tender for the railsounds.

Gary, the micro switch by itself can only drive the chuff input or the fan power but not both. Chuff input is a simple contact closure that grounds the chuff input. The TAS board did the work for that. If thats gone Mike will either have to use Johns board, or build a chuff and puff circuit, or use the micro switch to drive a double pole relay with one pole to the chuff input and the other pole to the fan.

Pete

Norton posted:

Gary, the micro switch by itself can only drive the chuff input or the fan power but not both. Chuff input is a simple contact closure that grounds the chuff input. The TAS board did the work for that. If thats gone Mike will either have to use Johns board, or build a chuff and puff circuit, or use the micro switch to drive a double pole relay with one pole to the chuff input and the other pole to the fan.

Pete

I don’t think so, 3rdrail uses a TAS turbo smoke unit.  He should be fine.  The EOB is not generating the chuff, this is a post MTH lawsuit threat engine when they went to the micro switch for chuff trigger. The only connection between the smoke unit and the EOB is the power wire allowing you to shut of the smoke unit via the remote.

Last edited by superwarp1
Hump Yard Mike posted:

The inside of the tender looks like the following:B78404D7-C486-43F4-976B-C2B6F351D1D02F3D9C18-EDE2-4D63-8A91-356708DC0048

I can’t tell without the R2LC removed, but if it’s truly a AC/DC commander, swapping out for a cruise commander will be easy. Download the cruise commander manual and try turning the cruise off and on.   If it does/doesn’t work then you know.  Should say on the board also.

 I’ll take pics of my set up to help later.

Last edited by superwarp1
Hump Yard Mike posted:

The coal load looks redone and very nice!

How does the smoke box front come off the locomotive?

It's just pressed on,  just be careful of all the add on piping.   With the boiler removed, gently pull, holding on to the head light.

It has been a few weeks, and I now have the err upgrade install in and it works great.  I really appreciate the help from all of you.  I did several modifications as well to help its performance around the curves I hope to post on here in the coming weeks once completed.

The last part of the install is working to control the volume.  While I can raise and lower the volume of the chuff from my cab1, I cannot do the same for the whistle.  I would like to be able to adjust this volume with out taking apart the tender.  The sound board is a rail sounds commander from 3rd rail.  When I read the directions from 3rd rail on their rail sounds commander, it only mentions a pot on the board and no reference to being able to use the pot on the tender already.  Is there a way around this?   Thinking if I removed  the pot from the board and soldered the wires from the pot already mounted to the tender.

thanks!

Mike

Last edited by Hump Yard Mike

Did you install a new ERR Railsounds board? If so the pot in the tender is no longer connected. Just increase the volume to max on the new board, then vary the volume with your handheld.

Pete

I think you would have to unsolder the pot on the board and solder the wires from the remote pot in its place. Right now that pot has no connection to the board. Verify the value of the remote pot first though to see how close it is to the one one board. They may be the same but I have never checked that.

 

Pete

With some more time at home these last few weeks, this project is about wrapped up.  Below is the list of items I completed that may be help to others having similar performance issues.  I assume my engine must have been an odd ball, as I have not seen any one else having as many issues that I have encountered with it.  I was counting on it working with O72 diameter track as advertised, which maybe part of why I have run into allot of these issues.  Regardless, it runs well on O72 now and it is beautiful model!

8C49A0A0-1573-463B-BE1C-DFBC4ED98209

 

1. Upgraded to err board as unit did not come with any cruise as purchased  Roy from Royz trains was awesome in providing information on what I needed for the err upgrade and what to watch out for.  I highly recommend him as supplier for err products!

56A76A3E-C257-460F-87BA-EE4F6372FE7C

2. Removed reed switch from bottom of tender for chuff and re connected to micro switches in engine.

3. Bent (tuned) micro switches in engine to help with skipped chuff

4.  Removed the pot from the non OEM Lionel sound board and soldered the wires from the existing pot on the tender to control the sound volume from outside the tender as it was originally suppose to be.  Works great!

5. Ground large pipe on fireman side  (not sure what is for ) in half so drive middle drive wheel would not interfere with it.  Pipe too big to be bent out away from wheel.

762A8F90-8BB4-485F-A1A5-2098ADB97DC8

6. Removed one screw  (there is second one still holding it) holding ash pan on as it interfered with rear booster truck from pivoting on curves

88E2C27B-3039-4649-BD10-D96F56C5DC99

7. Front pilot was too close to front drive wheel and wheel flanges would touch on O72. The front pilot brass stock reaching back to attach to the engine, was arched intentionally around the rear axles as manufactured.  I intentionally flattened it out a little bit to push the truck forward just a bit. 

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8. Spring replicating pipe going to rear booster truck was not in tension when on straight track, so when engine would enter a left hand turn, it could not compress in length causing derailments.  Cut spring shorter in length to be in tension when on straight track so truck could pivot on curved track.

before mod

71697B17-9C24-4751-AC17-90A19B264595

after mod

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The modification does not take away from the aesthetics at all.

9. Ground tender frame sides away from rear coupler and also tender frame above coupler to allow coupler additional swing and not be bent down because of frame misalignments.   As delivered the coupler could not move, especially an issue with this tender because of its size and overhang past the rear axle, causing issues on O72 with train coupled cars coupled behind it.

8DA85450-B0D6-45F0-8B28-491FFB00E80C

10.  Moved tender axles around so there would not be two non-flanged wheels in a row, to prevent them from dropping down in between the rails on curves and cause derailments

4AD5E4ED-85BA-4C39-A805-716B5A592700

11. Replaced engine/tender connection hook with a solid brass bar to allow the engine to back up and not derail front tender truck.  Existing design attached engine to front tender truck only, causing repeated derailing when on a curve in reverse.  Along with this, I tighten the gap between the engine and tender and also trimmed the apron between the engine and tender not to conflict with the two.  I removed the airline connections that hung down on the front of the tender as they interfered with this.

0357A3DB-BAD5-464C-BDF0-4B5AD6B87A9D0A5DB6A1-F1F3-4B17-8E47-5BC831793CC2

11. In the process of all of this. I managed to completely destroy the fireman hand rail along the engine stairs of the pilot.  Replaced and painted.

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12. Engine builder plates almost all fell off or were crooked.  Reattached.  Engine head light was not level and pointed up.  Leveled it.

BE6A6A19-220E-4532-8934-B62F6C9AF893

13. Weird transmission issue where on curves it would lurch and kick.  Not an expert on this, but believe the transmission was shifting from side to side where the internal worm gear would become misaligned with the gear on the center drive shaft.  I shimmed the internal gear bearings to help reduce the float and also shimmed the transmission to stay centered between the frame.  It seems to work much much better now, but no longer has a sprung centered driver because of the shims.

 

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Last edited by Hump Yard Mike

I had one of these, great loco, but ran it on 0-180 curves so no problems.

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