3rd Rail Texas and Pacific 2-10-4

I gave up did not try counter clockwise.

i have a full collection of nearly every decent T&P and MKT steamer made by Hallmark and sunset in HO and believe me I have hand laid HO code 70 and code 100 to include turnouts and I know a thing or two. I can promise you that Kato sectional is a lot more reliable than most hand laid stuff. I sense an unexpected number of satiric inferences here that are troubling in a forum that in the past has been helpful. I find that very regrettable. 

Well we are just trying to point out simple facts from our own experience with these engines. Is this your first 3rd Rail steam engine?

This is NOT HO scale.

Lionel Fastrack is NOT Kato track

Whatever you have done in the past with HO doesn't mean the same is true in this case. Did you ever try to run your Hallmark brass at a scale 100mph on a 15" radius curve of Bachman EZ Track??? I highly doubt it.

 

 

 

I agree with Scott on the behavior of this loco.  I had a Williams brass Hudson which behaved the same way and it turned out to be cold solder joint on the female plug to wire harness joint.  You could see a spark as the engine entered the curve on the receptacle board with the engine cab removed and the room lights out.  A little solder and all was fine again.

I also agree that running slower is better for diagnosing this kind of issue.  If you decouple the tender from the loco so there is room to get your fingers on the plug and wiggle it after it stalls, does it go again?

Rolland

Well I for one was not being satiracle if that’s even a word. 3 rail is s different animal than HO and I have tons of Kato Unitrak in HO and N. 

3rd Rail steamers can be finicky locos and having your track right is important. You could even be experiencing wight distribution in the curve changing the geometry of the track because it’s in carpet 

Thanks Scott! If it was shorting the lights and sound would be killed and the breaker would be tripped, which did not occur.

Laidoffsick:

I only run one engine flat out in HO and that is my PFM 25 ton Shay. LOL

My Sunset HO 2-10-4 negotiates 26” radius with a blind center driver only and rp-25 flanges, not pizza cutters. Translating to 52” radius in O scale (roughly). Of course I know the difference - I got into 3 Rail O when it became at least semi scale and it lent itself to entertaining over Christmas... the new generation of O 3 Rail equipment is great. Plus I could run my childhood stuff! Maybe this engine is too much for my kind of operation I bought it on the face of the published specs, and a lifelong desire to own one. There are no warnings about it not being suitable for sectional track, versus handlaid or Gargraves/Ross. Does anyone ever Hand Lay 3 Rail?! Yeah of course there is somebody doing it... 

If it's an opening circuit then that narrows it down to a faulty wire in the harness or a pick roller that is not reaching the track, or tender ground pickups out of alignment and not reaching the inside of each tender wheel.  If none of that is the culprit, then get a new outer box, we will send you a return UPS tag to get her back here for repair.

If your willing to open the tender, check the 4 wires that have screw terminal attachments to the ERR Motherboard. 1 loose connection there, and the circuit will open. Anything we can do to avoid the back and forth shipping of such a detailed model is a plus.

Regards,

Scott Mann

Well the OP said it derailed in the 072 curves, but it didnt mention any other issues. Then a whole different problem on 060 curves on the floor. If it didnt run on 072 curves, why not try trouble shooting that BEFORE attempting a smaller curve??????????????? 

 

 

If you'll recall, the O-72 was MTH which has big tie plates that stick up like euro track. The problem on that radius was the clunk which signaled the front driver and pilot truck coming off then a clunk as the tender approached the same spot. 

As for the speed this was a functionality test not a test for necessarily scale speed and the only available engineer was my 8 year old grandson. If it runs it runs if not...

 0-96 Fastrak might be the answer but then again so might be 0-72. Gonna do more tests on the Cheapskate and Ohio first. One concern I have is that heavier engines can pull Fastrak apart on carpet. 

I apologize for not having a fixed layout myself. 

In the interest of fairness to Scott Mann and 3rd Rail I feel I must at least do one more post to confirm this is an excellent engine. I took it over to Mike Walter’s big O 3-Rail and  O scale layout. He repaired the loose tender deck plate and he is pretty sure that was what was causing the derailment and stopping the loco entering the curves. Is minimum radius on Gargraves track is 54” or O-108! He believes with the deck plate repaired it would make 0-60 curves but he did suggest I go 0-72. He did not think O-96 is necessary. 

Let me be quite clear I still do not appreciate getting flamed nor do  like reading cursing. 

The loco is great!

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Some countries and societies may have different outlooks on what constiutes unacceptable language.  Personally, I find spelling and grammar errors far more offensive than what Norteamericanos consider cursing, but I struggle to not criticize.  I am not your English teacher.

My opinion - If you have to call someone out, do it once, then drop it.  Best to not call others out when they violate your personal strictures.

Again, opinion.

 

Gee, he suggested you go to 072..... thats a no brainer that was never suggested in this thread.  

If you post a question/problem and dont want to listen.... then why post??? Just because you dont like the answers? Maybe you need some thicker skin!

You could have solved the problem on your own if you would have been patient and listened to the advice that was given.

 

 

I’m not going to reply to any more cheap shots. Flame on good buddy - I have no interest in deflecting pointless jabs intended very obviously only to irritate me.

My intention here is to let everyone know the loco is a quality product that 3rd Rail stands behind. I have met a lot of nice people on this forum who have given me help, sold me great stuff, and I will be back. Thanks and best wishes in the fellowship of our fun hobby to all. 

Laidoffsick posted:

Gee, he suggested you go to 072..... thats a no brainer that was never suggested in this thread.  

If you post a question/problem and dont want to listen.... then why post??? Just because you dont like the answers? Maybe you need some thicker skin!

You could have solved the problem on your own if you would have been patient and listened to the advice that was given.

"There are some people who, if they don't already know, you can't tell em."   

Image result for yogi berra

 

" No matter how far we travel, the memories will follow in the baggage car."

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Oh yeah, I am really enjoying this wonderful engine. Imagine if you were a Pennsy buff and nobody had ever made a GG-1... Or an NYC fan and an NYC Hudson had never been made. It runs extremely well, the sound is great, I love the engine. I did take the loco-to-tender folding footplate off (it unscrews) since I am working on the carpet just like I was at age 5. I had my 8 year old grandson over tonight and he ran the two trains very carefully and prototypically... Slower than I usually do!

Oh yeah, technically speaking, the award for  “First ever 2-10-4” goes to ATSF.  T&P was the first customer to take delivery from Lima in 1925 of the then new type.  Thanks for posting the rare color pictures earlier in the thread.  

Christopher

Christopher Cinque posted:

Love the videos and glad you’re happy with the engine.  While I know very little about the T&P, I’m a huge fan of the Texas Type which T&P originated.  Can you recommend a book on T&P steam?  

Thanks,

Christopher

Not exclusively steam but a good place to start:

Collias, Joe G.  The Texas & Pacific Railway:  Super-Power to Streamliners 1925-1975.  M. M. Books:  1989.  ISBN:  0-9612366-2-0

[Edited to add the author's name, which I had typed in but disappeared at some point before saving.]

Frisco, MoPac, and T&P near Rolla, MO

Yes that's the Collias book, it's pretty much the bible. There is one other which is less useful and I have it .... Has "Oxcarts" in the titlle, I think it's "Oxcarts to Eagles". Edward DeGolyer of Dallas endowed the DeGolyer library in Dallas at SMU. They are a source for reference but it's been many years since I have contacted them. In the snail mail days of the 70's I received some plans from them of cars, at that time I was stationed on Okinawa and built an HO 5 car passenger train from those beautiful LaBelle kits... I was also "planning" a lot of HO loco conversions. It was a small road - 70 2-10-4s SOUND impressive but NYC ordered locos by the hundreds. Most Texans took it for granted and not enough photos were taken. Bobbye Hall made several types in HO which are very nice.

The DeGolyer family was quite wealthy, Edward was a great rail fan and I used to run into him often at Hall's Hobby Shop when I was at Baylor Dental '71-'74. Fine man.

Also, I purchased a Sunset T&P 2-10-4 NIB, Green, 2-rail from Bill Davis's website (lots of pics there if anyone’s interested) and am really looking forward to receiving it.  A very unique looking locomotive, love that “Russia Iron” look!  

Chris

I think you will be very pleased. My friend Mike Walter is a big 2 Rail Guy and has a great collection of high end motive power and he praised it. One small thing I really like is the way the headlight actually lights the track ahead in night operation.

Oops I just reread your post and realized you bought the Sunset, which would be HO. I have one but my HO layout is out of service. Still a very nice engine.

Griff Murphey posted:

Yes that's the Collias book, it's pretty much the bible. There is one other which is less useful and I have it .... Has "Oxcarts" in the titlle, I think it's "Oxcarts to Eagles". Edward DeGolyer of Dallas endowed the DeGolyer library in Dallas at SMU. They are a source for reference but it's been many years since I have contacted them. In the snail mail days of the 70's I received some plans from them of cars, at that time I was stationed on Okinawa and built an HO 5 car passenger train from those beautiful LaBelle kits... I was also "planning" a lot of HO loco conversions. It was a small road - 70 2-10-4s SOUND impressive but NYC ordered locos by the hundreds. Most Texans took it for granted and not enough photos were taken. Bobbye Hall made several types in HO which are very nice.

The DeGolyer family was quite wealthy, Edward was a great rail fan and I used to run into him often at Hall's Hobby Shop when I was at Baylor Dental '71-'74. Fine man.

Do you mean Everett Lee DeGolyer, Jr.? His son is a member of the Austin Tinplate Trackers.

You are correct sir. Thanks for the correction. I am glad to know he has a son carrying on the family railfan tradition. I think a major part of the dad’s model RR collection is in that library - further info would be appreciated. 

Many fanatic HO guys as they have gotten older have come to appreciate the wonderful reliable operation we get with 3 Rail O.

Curiously, this engine appears to have begun life in 1925 (1927 for the 610 in the second batch from Lima) as an oil burner.  Every prototype picture and every brass model I could look up suggests that this is true.  I’m hoping the book will explain.  

I am not a competent enough T&P historian to give the exact date that T&P converted to oil but by 1917-18 it was all oil fired. Oil fields by then had popped up all over Texas. The 500 class mikados that Lionel made up a few years back are technically correct in that they based the model on a builder's photo. BUT...That batch of engines was sent to the T&P by the USRA and was refused by T&P because the road was by then all oil fired. Those locos were passed on to the Rock Island. The 2-10-4s were thus oil fired from the get go.

It is a longstanding gripe of T&P model fans especially in O gauge 3 rail that everything Lionel and MTH have done in T&P colors has inaccurately sported coal tenders. To add insult to injury this has extended to post-WW2 blue and white passenger color schemes on Pacifics and Mountains. I mean, they had to look at photographs; how could they not notice the tenders?

Lionel even got the colors wrong on their recently released Legacy F-3 AAs. I understand the white stripe was done in silver.

Texas + Burgeoning Oil fields = Oil fired locomotives for the T&P. Hmm, who’d a thunk it!?! 😁 I should have been able to figure that out as railroads seem to gravitate towards using whatever fuel is in their own back yards. As for MTH and Lionel model mistakes, please know that the 2-rail importers are certainly not immune from making their share of faux pax’s although they usually seem to be less egregious than the ones you mentioned.

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