I can't help but to admire the 12 driving wheel configuration on this unique steam engine; and, it appears that Lionel used a prototypically accurate boiler superstructure (and not the U-shaped thing), but am not certain. It also appears most of the drivers are blind, which is understandable. Does anyone have the prior release of this model - on O72 curves do the middle drivers come off the outer rail to a noticeable degree?
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Hard to believe they won't, I have the scale Lionel PRR T1 Duplex, and it's drivers are off the rail on an O72 curve.
Paul, I had the first run of this #9000 Lionel TMCC locomotive and it ran beautifully, the whistle was fantastic, the locomotive worked well on 072 and great diameter circles. Yes, there are some flangless wheels, but it’s a beautiful performing locomotive. It’s a yes if you want to get one. Lionel did a fine job on this one and in Legacy it should sound, run, and look fantastic. Great question. Happy Railroading Everyone
Didn't the prototype have some flangeless drivers as well? I've always admired this locomotive even if it is not one that I particularly want or need for my own collection. I'm going from memory, but weren't these Alco 3 cylinder locomotives?
Where is Jack Wheelihan when we need him?
@GG1 4877 posted:Didn't the prototype have some flangeless drivers as well? I've always admired this locomotive even if it is not one that I particularly want or need for my own collection. I'm going from memory, but weren't these Alco 3 cylinder locomotives?
Where is Jack Wheelihan when we need him?
Yep, they were all three cylinder locomotives. Looking at archive photo's, looks like all drivers were flanged.
Rusty
@GG1 4877 posted:Didn't the prototype have some flangeless drivers as well?
Not to my knowledge.
I've always admired this locomotive even if it is not one that I particularly want or need for my own collection. I'm going from memory, but weren't these Alco 3 cylinder locomotives?
Yes. All the UP 9000 class 4-12-2 locomotives were 3-cylinder.
Where is Jack Wheelihan when we need him?
How's THAT?
@PRRronbh posted:Did Lionel add operating Gresley Valve Gear like the MTH model has?
I don't think so.
Ron
@Hot Water posted:
I just knew you would know the answer! 
I think maybe they were delivered with one driver flangeless. I will check the definitive source in a minute.
Did Lionel fix the sand dome? To me, that was the model's only flaw (aside from flanges and couplers). Mine had a round boiler belly - I never took it apart to see if it was two piece, like the FEF.
And of course I get to regale you with mine - but first I shall check Kratville.
Lionel
MSRP 4-12-2 = $1699.99
MSRP 2-10-0 = $1899.99
More bang for the buck...you decide! 🤑🤪
Big Jim - I was thinking the same thing...not that I need another steam engine to maintain, but between the two models the 4-12-2 wins hands-down in terms of brute power.
Kratville, Motive Power of the Union Pacific, p.169: 9000 as delivered, April, 1926., had "blind" fourth driver. Curve tests showed no need for blind driver and flange later added.
Here we have a shot of the original Lionel offering. I will try to pick one showing the boiler belly:
Yeah, this one shows what I want. First, look at the stunning detail, marred only by that huge gearbox shield. Then note the sand dome. I can find no photos of a 9000 with that sort of squared-off dome. I have the above Kratville book and the Volume 1 of his 9000 series books.
This is now gone to a good home. I should mention that it was a gift to me from a good friend of Bill Kratville. I considered 2-railing it, but as you will see in my next post - no need.
Here is mine. This one is in 1/4" Scale, unlike most of my models, since it is seriously large to start with. The drivers are USH, but the rods are from my masters. Gresley gear works, as does the center main rod. Those parts were gifts from Dennis and Jay. It runs on 74" radius curves, which is a little over twice what the Lionel could negotiate. It is still not quite finished.
Note the sand dome - not exact, but closer. And note the tank that could have obscured the giant Lionel gear box. Mine has an NWSL Mod 0.6 gearbox, so the components are all nestled within the frame, and the tank hides nothing. Oh, and before I get chastised for putting a non-Lionel photo in this thread, note that the tender trucks are in fact Lionel (700T).
There were variations between classes and between locomotives. I chose a specific class, but no longer remember which, or why. Herewith:
Stunning.
Funny how that rather large tender almost looks too small; a huge tender, such as a Pennsy "Coast to Coast" would be more keeping in scale with such an enormous engine...
Mark in Oregon
Does anyone know if the former Lionel version had the 2 Fatboy speakers in tender?
The vol. II catalog states that it will have working Gresley Valve gear.
Bob, both are impressive models, thanks.
@Paul Kallus posted:Does anyone know if the former Lionel version had the 2 Fatboy speakers in tender?
According to the parts breakdown , yes. 2 "baby" fatboys, which I believe these days is the norm as they take up less space.
Thanks, Rick!
With pre-orders due within days...has anyone placed a preorder - and which road name? I like a couple of the fantasy color schemes, but I really cannot afford one.
@Big Jim posted:Lionel
MSRP 4-12-2 = $1699.99
MSRP 2-10-0 = $1899.99
More bang for the buck...you decide! 🤑🤪
Not really a valid comparison point. Decapods were used by a number of different railroads. IIRC the 4-12-2 was only used by the Union Pacific.
I have been accused of sometimes being dense Jim, but I don't see another interpretation of your comment. I just don't see where the relative cost of the 4-12-2 against the cost of a 2-10-0 at those prices is going to be relevant to many potential buyers.
I see his point. Why is a much simpler, smaller model adaptable to many roads and destined to sell better, be $200 more than the complex 3 cylinder UP type? Makes no sense at all, no matter how you look at it.
As I recall, on the MTH model, only the first and fifth set up drivers have flanges. It will operate on 054 (with a lot of overhang)
To me, the price comparison of the two models is a valid point and in reality the pre-order price variation is actually about a $350-$400 difference. But it ultimately comes down to what'll look good running on your model railroad.
The 4-12-2 is very unique but it's long wheelbase (blind drivers) may overhang on probably anything less than O-96 curves. It's a brute of an engine however, good amount of detail, realistic boiler, and to me would look neat pulling a variety of consists at either low or high speeds.
The 2-10-0 (for me) has a more limited application - it's really a slow-speed looking freight engine with the small diameter drivers designed for weight distribution on light-rail branch lines, and Lionel is making it because it's one of a handful of operating steam engines left in the country and Strasburg RR has been using it for excursions. It'll likely have great detail and some operators will enjoy using it in reproducing excursion runs on their pikes. The latter does not appeal to me and despite studying the catalog for weeks now as well as on-line pictures and videos "the price is not right" 
@bob2 posted:I see his point. Why is a much simpler, smaller model adaptable to many roads and destined to sell better, be $200 more than the complex 3 cylinder UP type? Makes no sense at all, no matter how you look at it.
The 4-12-2 tooling already exists. That's a cost savings in itself.
The Decapod's tooling as to be made new from scratch. (And there will be tooling required for the diecast frame and drive.) Then there's the labor involved with building the brass superstructures for the Decapod. Add in there will likely be less decapods built than the 4-12-2's, cost per unit goes up.
Even Broadway Limited's HO Brass Hybrids MSRP higher than their diecast line.
Rusty
So, the 2-10-0 comes in at $99/inch where the 4-12-2 comes in at $64/inch! Using that as a comparison, the Decapod should come in at a much more realistic total of about $1200!!!
@Big Jim posted:So, the 2-10-0 comes in at $99/inch where the 4-12-2 comes in at $64/inch! Using that as a comparison, the Decapod should come in at a much more realistic total of about $1200!!!
These things are not priced by the inch. They are sold by costs of engineering, materials, labor and how many units in a production. As I mentioned before, the tooling for the 4-12-2 already exists and that cost is somewhat amortized. The decapod is being built totally new from the rails up (well, maybe not the tender trucks) and being a brass hybrid will be more labor intensive to build.
If the price upsets you so, don't buy one.
Rusty
Well, duh! It was just one way to compare the two models. If Lionel could produce a monster loco for that price before, they could produce a much smaller loco for a more manageable price today where it wouldn't break the bank of more people that would like to have such a popular high profile train.
I am not going to buy one, nor, the overpriced passenger cars! Lionel have priced themselves out of my wallet with this new catalog! And, I hate to see it happen for the future of the hobby!
@Big Jim posted:Well, duh! It was just one way to compare the two models. If Lionel could produce a monster loco for that price before, they could produce a much smaller loco for a more manageable price today where it wouldn't break the bank of more people that would like to have such a popular high profile train.
I am not going to buy one, nor, the overpriced passenger cars! Lionel have priced themselves out of my wallet with this new catalog! And, I hate to see it happen for the future of the hobby!
You also still miss the point that the decapod requires more new resources than a rerun of the 4-12-2.
Engineering, labor, tooling (and the decapod's drive will require tooling) material costs have gone up since the 4-12-2 was new in 2012 when it sold for $1200.00. If the 4-12-2 was tooled new today the price would probably be north of $2100.00.
Rusty
I don't think that I am missing the point at all. Even with all you have said, it is still way overpriced for a small engine like this. Looking back at the $64 question, it falls right in line with what I aid for my 3rd Rail N&W Class M 4-8-0. Couple to that a doubling in price of woodside passenger cars from MTH to Lionel and we have a good case for a conspiracy theory.
"What manufacturer is your "Niner" I assume Lionel. Also what is the diameter of the curves you are running on?"
My U.P. 9000 is the MTH Premier version (PS3). The curves are 054 Super O (modified from 036 to 054 by Rich Riley).
@Big Jim posted:it is still way overpriced for a small engine like this.
I am not arguing that point although price isn't the issue I have with the light 2-10-0. I'm just saying that comparing the 4-12-2 to the 2-10-0 on bang for your bucks basis is about as meaningful as comparing organic Brussel spouts to steak based on price.,,
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