Grease for engine gears

Yes, before I switched to Red & Tacky I was using auto bearing grease on the recommendation of a repairman.  After some use it got thinned out, too. Maybe not practical but maybe you need more engines so you don't run them so hard. The Carnegie Science Center in Pittsburgh has their large layout and I read at onetime they modified their Lionel engines. Not sure what they do today but someone on the forum might know

You might try something like this.  It is available at McMaster.com.

"High-Temperature Synthetic Grease with Moly
Cartridge (16-oz.), NLGI #1
Each
In stock
1-11 Each $48.04
12 or more $43.75
1446K1
Size Cartridge for Grease Gun (16 oz.)
NLGI Number 1
Additional Specifications With Moly (0° to 600° F)
SDS
Increase the time between applications with these synthetic greases that handle your high-temperature applications. These products are compliant under all state VOC rules in effect on October 1, 2010.

With Moly—As temperature increases, so does the performance of this gray grease. It is thickened with sodium and contains molybdenum disulfide to withstand extreme pressures."

Try labelle oil not grease, remember grease can attract ballast dirt etc which can caus binding etc in your gear set, it's the opposite of what we have been led to believe but it works!

I am NOT a fan of Red & Tacky !! It does separate.

jim pastorius posted:

Yes, before I switched to Red & Tacky I was using auto bearing grease on the recommendation of a repairman.  After some use it got thinned out, too. Maybe not practical but maybe you need more engines so you don't run them so hard. The Carnegie Science Center in Pittsburgh has their large layout and I read at onetime they modified their Lionel engines. Not sure what they do today but someone on the forum might know

If someone is in the Pittsburgh area and they know someone that takes care of the Carnegie center trains, I would like to know what they use.  I currently have around 20 engines for 5 loops on the layout and swap them out every week.  Trying to minimize maintenance, of the number of times I need to pull off the shell and disengage the motor from the truck, clean out the old stuff.

Does anyone know what Lionel used to use in their engine gear box?  That grease seemed to last a lot longer in heavy usage conditions than what is see now.

Thanks,

Bob D

I use regular lithium grease like you'd grease the bearings in your car with purchased from my local hardware store. Works well for me but I don't have any trains I run the wheels off

That grease lionel used got hard and jammed up trains. There are far better greases on the market now like Labelle and Lucas red and tacky.

Rob

How about some more information? what type of motive power are you running? Modern, postwar? All grease seperates to some degree. 

Lionel hasn't used any special grease on stuff made in the last 15+years, in most cases theres  very little grease put in the gearbox to begin with. Certainly Red N Tacky is as good but most likely surpasses modern Lionel OEM grease, which in many of my locos had a vaseline like appearance.

A high temp grease may help, having said, that RedN Tacky has a dropping point of 540 degrees. I can't imagine the gearbox getting that hot without the motor eventually burning up.

Its worth a shot trying a higher temp or wheel bearing grease, keep in mind wheel bearings have seals to keep the grease in when it thins from heat.

Otherwise shorter trains might be in order.

Red N Tacky seems to work OK in my engine gears. However I have noticed something strange. I bought a tube of Red N Tacky and a grease gun to make it easier to dispense. The grease liquefies just lying there in the grease gun! With the grease gun just laying on a shelf the liquefied grease will run out of the grease gun. I have other types of automotive grease in grease guns. None have ever done this.

I work for a company that makes Video surveillance software. For motion I run a HO train on a 36 inch diameter circle 24/7. I use Bachmann and Model power. The engines last about a month or so and if there is rolling stock attached the plastic wheels do not last. If a engine starts to die I will just lube it up with some light weight engine oil, knowing that it will die ion a couple of weeks. The reason for HO is that it is the lowest cost to replace a engine about $25 to $30. 
What scale are you using? What train brand are you using? How long does your engine last? How many cars are you pulling? Did you ever calculate the distance it travels for a month? (You will be surprised).

Below are my fun facts that I made to show visitors when they stop by:

“ONSSI EXPRESS” FUN FACTS.

Train Operates 24/7.

 Track has a 36 inch Diameter, circumference is 113 inches.

 For the train to go ten revolutions on the track it takes 1 minute.

 1 minute (10 revolutions) = 1,130 inch.

 1 hour = 67,800 inch.

 24 hours = 1,627,200 inch or 135,600 feet or 25.7 miles

 30 days = 4,068,000 feet or 770.455 miles (train only last about a month, then needs to be replaced).

 365 days = 49,494,000 feet or 9,373.864 miles.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Scale miles traveled:

 HO train is 1/87 in scale.

 Take 5280 (feet per mile) and divide by 87.

 So, 1 HO mile = 60' 8 1/4" (60.75 feet).

 For scale miles traveled for 365 Days:

 Multiply 4,949,400 feet by 60.75 feet which will equal 49,390,060.75  or 93,738.647 scale miles.

 This would equal 3.37 times around a scale earth!

 “ONSSI has to increase passenger fees to help pay for equipment upkeep.”

I'm a Labelle guy myself. Of course we haven't heard from the motor oil guy yet.

This is the first time that I've heard of anyone having problems with Lucas Petroleum Products. I'd drop them a line. Prior to my trains I used Red-N-Tacky as assembly lube in high performance street rod motors. Never lost a motor in over thirty years. What works for one person may not be acceptable for another.

Ronh, I don't understand how a train gets used in video surveillance.

it is used as motion to test the motion activation im guessing

Hello Matt:  Yes it is it used to show motion that our QA folks used when testing our software, is also used on one of our mobile test that is shown all over the world. Basically it show a fluid motion (30 frames per second) display and not a chopped type of a display on a hand held mobile device. Thev train is only used for SW testing and demos. Kinda of nice to have a train going at work to take care of.

Anyway,  back to the grease, I will try the Red N Tacky on my prewar restores and see how it works/ Did anyone have any problems with the Red N Tacky drying up and getting hard?

The grease Lionel use to use was  a white lube, i forget the name but it would dry out and get hard. Lionel recommends  white lithium grease now.  I don't see why red& tacky would not work but as much as you are running your trains you might want to use a synthetic grease. I don't know if anybody makes a grease for gears only but it maybe worth looking into.  Also running trains as much as you do will require repacking gearboxes more offen.

I have read a comment by 3rd Rail personnel (Scott Mann, I suppose) that they recommend automotive wheel bearing grease. It is what I would recommend for heavy service. I've used it. It's for automobiles, so, tough, for sure. Economical, too.

For typical, civilian-use layouts any good grease will be just fine. I've used Labelle and others. Prefer the automotive stuff, on principle.

Jim 1939 posted:

I'm a Labelle guy myself. Of course we haven't heard from the motor oil guy yet.

I was thinking the same Jim when I saw this question.   

I use Mobil 1 synthetic grease. It's red but does not liquefy and a lifetime tube costs around $12 at the farm store.

Unsaid in all of the above is the question of whether an automotive type grease, such as wheel bearing grease (which I have used on car wheel bearings) can adequately flow around the much smaller parts on a loco.  (Compare the teeth on loco gears with the size of roller bearings on a car).  All of the loco gear greases I have encountered seem to be of a lower consistency and more fluid.

I note that even on a car, chassis lubricant and wheel bearing grease differed.

RonH posted:

Anyway,  back to the grease, I will try the Red N Tacky on my prewar restores and see how it works/ Did anyone have any problems with the Red N Tacky drying up and getting hard?

Never. It's kind of like a do once and forget it type of service, it doesn't run or seep or break down, fling off, or wear out / get consumed.

Thanks all for your thoughts.  I will try several combinations, Lithium, Mobile 1 Synthetic & wheel bearing grease and see what works best.  I will update this thread once I have tried all three.

What we run at the museum are O gauge Lionel, MTH & Williams engines with ~ 10 to 12 cars on five 12 X 24 loops.

Thanks again,

Bob D

I think there is an over-emphasis on grease staying thick.  Don't think "liquifying" is a bad thing. Have used Red & Tacky for a year now and going over some of these engines the gear sappear "wet" with grease and the stuff isn't thrown all over the inside.  Seems to me running a 12'x24' loop with 10 cars for long periods of time(how fast) is pretty hard work for a run of the mill Lionel engine.  There is more than just gears involved-there are bearing, shafts and axles.

rad400 posted:

Thanks all for your thoughts.  I will try several combinations, Lithium, Mobile 1 Synthetic & wheel bearing grease and see what works best...

Hmmm..., the Lucas Red 'N' Tacky #2 is all three of these - Lithium based synthetic HP bearing grease. And it's tacky. I think you just found your grease.

red n tacky is synthetic, any brand you choose should be synthetic. the lubrication properties of synthetics stay where they are needed longer than regular lubricants, even though they look like they separated or melted, they did not. red n tacky as with most synthetics,  will withstand much higher temperatures than your train can generate unless it catches on fire. with that said, even synthetics wear out, and the amount or running you are talking about may need more frequent p/m's. remember these toys weren't made with the precision required to last as many hours as you are putting them through, so your failure rate seems pretty good considering. you could experiment with different synthetics, but I think you will find them the same as the red n tacky in the end.

I don't know what kind of engines you are using but they would require periodic maintenance plus be in good shape= wheels in gauge, true on the axles,  good bearings-a lot of things. No grease you use will be a miracle cure.

Also, It seems to me a fresh application of R&T 2 seems to have an odor of its own when it gets even a bit warm.

Reminds me of an old museum layout I read about once, the name eludes me. They ran the same post war Lionel engines, with real war bonnet pain on the Santa Fe F units, for decades. It sound like and makes sense that perhaps Lionel made a custom batch just for them to higher standards than normal. I hope you find the right grease. Maybe some one can find out what that those engines were maintained with, and the layout.

Allin posted:

...They ran the same post war Lionel engines, with real war bonnet pain on the Santa Fe F units, for decades...

Here is my early 2333 zipping around the FasTrack Christmas layout 2 years ago - just about whisper quiet at full throttle with Lucas Red 'N' Tacky #2 on all worm and spur gears, and on/in the grease reservoir and armature bushings(I injected the Red 'N' Tacky into the reservoir):

My PW stuff seems to run with less noise with R&T 2.  And if you use Labelle's Teflon type oil on PW trucks, they can roll almost as easily as the new trucks.  Just a drop on each side of the whell on the axel.  Spill wheel.  if it spins freely, you are go to go.  If not, just add one more small drop

Dominic, but how long do they continue to run that way?  Reoiling PW stuff is a continuing headache.

I don't have a "timetable".  I test the trucks every so often, and when a car comes out of storage.  The test is to spin the wheeels on the axel.  If they spin, they are good to go.  If not, just a drop of oil.  But the key here is to use a "Teflon" or "PFTE" (gernaric Teflon.)

Also, just a drop of oil is good on modern METRAL trucks.  Just a SMALL drop at the point where the "needlepoint" part of the axel enters the truck frame hole.  On modern cars this lasts for a long time. 

@rad400 posted:

Thanks all for your thoughts.  I will try several combinations, Lithium, Mobile 1 Synthetic & wheel bearing grease and see what works best.  I will update this thread once I have tried all three.

What we run at the museum are O gauge Lionel, MTH & Williams engines with ~ 10 to 12 cars on five 12 X 24 loops.

Thanks again,

Bob D

Sir,

How did this switch from Red N’ Tacky play out? Was white lithium or Mobil 1 superior in your experience?

Thank you,

Rob