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I am a bit confused by what seems to be conflicting information.   The info from the engineer says that the ground and U wiring should be 2-4 inches apart, yet there is discussion of aluminum tape and foil under the roadbed or plywood which would seem to me to be inside the recommended 2 inches.   I am just about to secure the roadbed etc and not certain if I should run aluminum tape under the roadbed?    Does Dale's power booster eliminate the need for this ?

Responses are appreciated.

 

GREG in Wisconsin

Putting copper/aluminum tape under the track to enhance the earth ground portion of the TMCC signal is not a good idea.  Lionel’s CTO group were the ones recommending the 2+” separation between the earth ground and outside rail ( U connection) portions of the TMCC signal.   Dale’s / GRJ TMCC booster will definitely help Lionel engines with blinking engine head lights which is an indication of poor TMCC signal strength. 

Bob D 

Last edited by rad400
Stackm746 posted:

I am a bit confused by what seems to be conflicting information.   The info from the engineer says that the ground and U wiring should be 2-4 inches apart, yet there is discussion of aluminum tape and foil under the roadbed or plywood which would seem to me to be inside the recommended 2 inches.   I am just about to secure the roadbed etc and not certain if I should run aluminum tape under the roadbed?    Does Dale's power booster eliminate the need for this ?

Responses are appreciated.

 

GREG in Wisconsin

I was under the impression the blinking light problem occurs when running a locomotive under elevated track. The engine stops and the front light starts blinking because it is recieving too much signal. The signal generated by the top track is a circle that mixes with the signal on the lower track effectively increasing frequency and confusing the engine so it shuts down. To stop the elevated track signal from propagating below the track either a foil (NJ High Railers used copper foil) or a wire running along side the track (I think only one side is needed and the wire can be coated) connected to 'earth ground' stops the signal from propagating below the track and mixing with the signal on the lower track. There was an article in the OGR magazine written a few years ago by the HJ High Railers addressing this issue and their recommendations on alleviating it.

Joe Fauty posted:
Stackm746 posted:

I am a bit confused by what seems to be conflicting information.   The info from the engineer says that the ground and U wiring should be 2-4 inches apart, yet there is discussion of aluminum tape and foil under the roadbed or plywood which would seem to me to be inside the recommended 2 inches.   I am just about to secure the roadbed etc and not certain if I should run aluminum tape under the roadbed?    Does Dale's power booster eliminate the need for this ?

Responses are appreciated.

 

GREG in Wisconsin

I was under the impression the blinking light problem occurs when running a locomotive under elevated track. The engine stops and the front light starts blinking because it is recieving too much signal. The signal generated by the top track is a circle that mixes with the signal on the lower track effectively increasing frequency and confusing the engine so it shuts down. To stop the elevated track signal from propagating below the track either a foil (NJ High Railers used copper foil) or a wire running along side the track (I think only one side is needed and the wire can be coated) connected to 'earth ground' stops the signal from propagating below the track and mixing with the signal on the lower track. There was an article in the OGR magazine written a few years ago by the HJ High Railers addressing this issue and their recommendations on alleviating it.

 At the NJ-hi railers, I have been removing the foil that was put under the track years ago.  The electrical team has been installing telephone poles where we run a ground wire on for the locations which we have a weak signal.   When telephone poles are not appropriate in the scenery, we will run a wire ~ 2" away from the outside rail on the layout.   The main thing to remember is to try to keep the "U" terminal wiring (outside Rail connection), ~2" away from any earth ground connection like you have in 110V power cables and water pipes.   When you have the U terminal wiring to close to earth ground, especially parallel runs, capacitance shorting effect comes into play, reducing the overall TMCC signal.

After making sure the basic wiring is correct and you still have an issue, the Dale M/GRJ booster works wonders.

Bob D

NJ- Hi Railers

Extending the antenna with wire works but I found using 1/2” copper tape works better. There is approximately a 25% signal improvement using the copper tape.  If you use the copper tape or wire, make sure to also use silicone adhesive to secure the wire/tape to the body of the engine.  You can find the copper tape on e bay.  

BOB WALKER posted:

There is a very small (1x11/2x3/8) 12V RF preamplifier that provides 16db of gain at the TMCC track signal frequency. Inserting this preamp between the loco antenna and the TMCC decoder RF input might resolve the low signal issues that many of us have experienced. I plan to try this.

Can you provide further information on the RF preamp

thanks

Stackm746 posted:

I am a bit confused by what seems to be conflicting information.   The info from the engineer says that the ground and U wiring should be 2-4 inches apart, yet there is discussion of aluminum tape and foil under the roadbed or plywood which would seem to me to be inside the recommended 2 inches.   I am just about to secure the roadbed etc and not certain if I should run aluminum tape under the roadbed?    Does Dale's power booster eliminate the need for this ?

Responses are appreciated.

 

GREG in Wisconsin

I think the foil or sheet aluminum came about from misinformation about what the issue is under an overhead track or also maybe from the use of the term ground "plane". Both ideas are erroneous. Dale M tried to stamp out the word plane, but had little luck. It was too catchy. As stated above, the overhead track or tunnel screens the engine from the overhead signal provided by the house ground wiring in the room. The term is "ground wire"  that is the third wire in the house wiring and is what Lionel uses as an antenna. No concept of a "plane" is involved.

The TMCC antenna system is the ground wire overhead and the outside rails of the track. The engine sits in the middle in the ideal situation. As also stated the antenna, the ground wire, and the U terminal, the outside rails, should be kept apart to avoid a capacitive effect from shorting the two together and reducing the signal strength.

Thanks.   I have a followup question.  When my train room was built, I had the electrician run a separate ground wire from the actual earth ground.  I also have a circuit for all the wall receptacles which goes around the room but at a level below the tracks.  Finally, I have a 20 AMP isolated circuit that resides in the middle of the room that I am using to power the layout with 12 bricks and a ZW-L.   For my ground wire, can I run it off the separate earth ground or should I connect it to either the circuit that goes around the room or the circuit that is powering the layout.   

Thoughts and comments are appreciated.

 

GREG in Wisconsin.

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