Raising a mountain in the lower right:

First attempt with roads:

I've gone this far, I might just as well add some trees:

Impressive, three reverse loops in a 5'x9' space. Nice design. Wiring the upper reverse loop with one PSX-AR-AC is easy and the reverse loop segment is long enough to hold a reasonably long train. On the lower elevation all the track making up the center"X" can be isolated and wired through a single reverse loop controller. Max train length through the "X" would be an engine and four cars if the last car is illuminated. Fortunately the S gauge 90deg FasTrack crossing has an insulated center diamond. Are you planning to build and operate this layout?

@AmFlyer posted:

Impressive, three reverse loops in a 5'x9' space. Nice design. Wiring the upper reverse loop with one PSX-AR-AC is easy and the reverse loop segment is long enough to hold a reasonably long train. On the lower elevation all the track making up the center"X" can be isolated and wired through a single reverse loop controller. Max train length through the "X" would be an engine and four cars if the last car is illuminated. Fortunately the S gauge 90deg FasTrack crossing has an insulated center diamond. Are you planning to build and operate this layout?

Thanks AMFlyer, I am toying with the idea, I just now ordered some track to play with and a command control turnout.

Agree, the elevated reverse loop is straight-forward for detection and reversing.

On the lower section, I am not sure.  Would it work to wire the oval in two halves horizontally, ending at the crossing.  Then two reverse units would detect and reverse each half.  That would handle longer trains?

Not sure about this, the yellow and green would both be subject to reversing on a polarity detection across the gap.  Only one should fire, depending on direction of travel.  May need some more thought.

I am thinking four reversing units total?

I worked up a circuit some years ago, to control a block signal that shows red when the two track sections are opposite polarity.  Have not revisited the idea recently.

Or is this what I need:  the black never reverses, but the green and blue reverse on a polarity mismatch.  That would work if power is AC.

Ken, my layout has a hidden staging yard/reverse loop under the layout that looks just like your red plus blue track. Mine is wired such that the reverse loop segment, your blue track, would end at the point end of the upper RH turnout. I am not sure if four PSX-AR-AC's are necessary but what you drew should work. My concern is there are two reverse loops touching each other and I am not sure how the controllers will react.

I would first try combining the red and yellow and connecting that to the transformer. Connect the green through a reverser board and the blue through another reverser board. I think that works.

The advantage of the way I first suggested with the entire "X" as a reverse loop is that you can operate engines to move cars on and off the sidings without constantly triggering the controllers. When the pilot wheels move across that insulated junction there is a pretty big spark when the board is triggered. Not like the HO DCC system. 10A from a ZW-L channel can make a big spark, that is one reason why the AC version of these boards have such a big heat sink on them.

I have 5 PSX-AR-AC's on my layout and after four years one just failed. It is the one that powers the points/diamond in a 22.5deg mainline crossing. It is frequently activated because of the crossing location in the track plan. I have two new ones in the mail to me from Tony's Trains, a replacement and a spare. It is unusual for these to fail so I have someone who will look at the failed board to see what happened.

Hi Ken nice layout on your elevation could you tell me how many feet going from 0 to 4 1/2 inches and what height are the supports and spacing?

The length of the grade can be calculated from the 3.9% and 4.5" rise. That is almost exactly 10', plus some additional distance for the required vertical easements at the bottom and top of the grade. That would make the total grade between 11' and 12' depending on the easements used.

@AmFlyer posted:

Ken, my layout has a hidden staging yard/reverse loop under the layout that looks just like your red plus blue track. Mine is wired such that the reverse loop segment, your blue track, would end at the point end of the upper RH turnout. I am not sure if four PSX-AR-AC's are necessary but what you drew should work. My concern is there are two reverse loops touching each other and I am not sure how the controllers will react.

I would first try combining the red and yellow and connecting that to the transformer. Connect the green through a reverser board and the blue through another reverser board. I think that works.

The advantage of the way I first suggested with the entire "X" as a reverse loop is that you can operate engines to move cars on and off the sidings without constantly triggering the controllers. When the pilot wheels move across that insulated junction there is a pretty big spark when the board is triggered. Not like the HO DCC system. 10A from a ZW-L channel can make a big spark, that is one reason why the AC version of these boards have such a big heat sink on them.

I have 5 PSX-AR-AC's on my layout and after four years one just failed. It is the one that powers the points/diamond in a 22.5deg mainline crossing. It is frequently activated because of the crossing location in the track plan. I have two new ones in the mail to me from Tony's Trains, a replacement and a spare. It is unusual for these to fail so I have someone who will look at the failed board to see what happened.

Many thanks for your help, Tom, I appreciate your experience and insight!

So, is this idea worthwhile to allow trailing-point switching of the spurs without tripping the automatic reverse units?

I divided the top green/black straight section in half, thinking either side might need a place to set out a car or two while interchanging with the spurs.   The little curving tail past the spur's turnouts on each block, might allow a car or lighted caboose to be set out there, at 9.5".

The bottom green/black straight I assigned it all to the green block, in case a locomotive working the green spur with a short train needs some length to move a train back and forth while switching.   The black block has the length on grade running up to the elevated that gives it more length/space to work with.

@AmFlyer posted:

The length of the grade can be calculated from the 3.9% and 4.5" rise. That is almost exactly 10', plus some additional distance for the required vertical easements at the bottom and top of the grade. That would make the total grade between 11' and 12' depending on the easements used.

The run on grade from turnout to turnout is 110".   I would use Woodland Scenics inclines for simplicity and ease of construction to make the grade.   Their 4% grade is 8 feet, 96" (actually a bit over 4%, but close) with a rise of 4".  The additional 0.5" rise requires another foot of run.   So to reach 4.5" at 4% (approx), is 108 inches.  No length for easements.

So instead, if I lower the rise to 4.25" from 4.5", then the run on grade needed is 96+6=102".  Leaving 8" for vertical easements, which I would give equally 4" at the top and bottom, so there would be 8" at both ends at 2%.  Perhaps not enough easement, but better than nothing.

Woodland Scenics has 2%, 3%, and 4" foam curve-able inclines.  Its pretty easy to cut an 8" section of 2% for both ends, and run 4% in between.

4% is the maximum grade I will work with in O.  I am thinking that will work fine for short S trains as well?

NMRA S Scale Vertical Clearance recommendation is 3 3/16" to 4 5/16", so 4.25" seems doable.  From that 4.25" you must subtract the height of the roadbed and rail under the bridge, and the depth of any bridge support.  Seems like that will be fine, in the middle of NMRA's recommendation. (Perhaps won't allow double-stacks ).

I am looking to purchase a LionChief Northern as the "big power" running this layout, needing S36 minimum.

In this version I added a tunnel to the mountain in the lower-right.  It features a sheer rock face (dark color).

@Ken-Oscale posted:

The run on grade from turnout to turnout is 110".   I would use Woodland Scenics inclines for simplicity and ease of construction to make the grade.   Their 4% grade is 8 feet, 96" (actually a bit over 4%, but close) with a rise of 4".  The additional 0.5" rise requires another foot of run.   So to reach 4.5" at 4% (approx), is 108 inches.  No length for easements.

So instead, if I lower the rise to 4.25" from 4.5", then the run on grade needed is 96+6=102".  Leaving 8" for vertical easements, which I would give equally 4" at the top and bottom, so there would be 8" at both ends at 2%.  Perhaps not enough easement, but better than nothing.

Woodland Scenics has 2%, 3%, and 4" foam curve-able inclines.  Its pretty easy to cut an 8" section of 2% for both ends, and run 4% in between.

4% is the maximum grade I will work with in O.  I am thinking that will work fine for short S trains as well?

NMRA S Scale Vertical Clearance recommendation is 3 3/16" to 4 5/16", so 4.25" seems doable.  From that 4.25" you must subtract the height of the roadbed and rail under the bridge, and the depth of any bridge support.  Seems like that will be fine, in the middle of NMRA's recommendation. (Perhaps won't allow double-stacks ).

I am looking to purchase a LionChief Northern as the "big power" running this layout, needing S36 minimum.

Looking forward to seeing this built.

BTW, the FlyerChief Northern will run on R20 (original Flyer curves.)  There is no so-called "S36" in S sectional track.  The common curves are R20, R24 and R27.  The "S36" is a result of Lionel's cut-'n-pasteitis from the O gauge FasTrack.

Rusty

I made two curved plate-girder bridges as approaches to a straight long steel bridge, on concrete piers.

Could be a long trestle instead, with a short bridge over the crossing and turnout.

i cant use the woodland incline because my incline is off the table im using angle brackets screwed to the side on the table it starts 36in on the table then goes on to the brackets with a piece of 1/2 ply under the fasttrack i can adjust the bracket height to what ever but i dont know what ever is i have trouble with percents i was looking for height /inches /length 

           thanks

Wayne:  don't know if this helps:  But just calculate 1/2" rise for each foot at 4% (close to 4% - 4" rise in 96" run - 8 ft).

If you want 2%, then 1/4" inch rise every one foot.

If you want 3%, then 3/8" rise every foot.

This is what Woodland Scenics uses, for convenience.  The actual grade of their inclines at 4% is 4"/96" = 4.166% grade.

The actual for 3% using this "heuristic" (rule-of-thumb) is 3/96 = 03.125%.

Actual for 2% is 2/96 = 2.083%

If you are not concerned with the variance, this is an easy way to calculate and plan grades.

For instance, using these approximations, if you want a 4% grade with vertical easements of 2%:

• leading (lower easement) of 1' at 2%= 1/4"
• 4% rise over 8 feet = 4"
• crest vertical easement at 2% of 1' = 1/4"

So that gives 4.5" of rise over 10'.

[by comparison, 10' of constant 4% (actual 4.166%) gives 5" of rise.  10' of true/precise 4% grade gives a rise of 4.8"]

Years ago, I built a layout with a grade this way:

• 1' of 2% = 1/4" rise
• 1' of 3% = 3/8" rise
• 8' of 4% = 4" rise
• 1' of 3% = 3/8" rise
• 1' of 2% = 1/4" rise

Total rise over 12' was 5 1/4" (for an O layout).  I put two little 4-wheel "Beep" locos at the head-end, and they pulled 11 cars up the grade just fine.  Fun times!  That was the length of my passing track, so all good.

@Rusty Traque posted:

Looking forward to seeing this built.

BTW, the FlyerChief Northern will run on R20 (original Flyer curves.)  There is no so-called "S36" in S sectional track.  The common curves are R20, R24 and R27.  The "S36" is a result of Lionel's cut-'n-pasteitis from the O gauge FasTrack.

Rusty

I wondered about that, wondered if Lionel really tested or built the loco for 36" diameter rather than 40" diameter.  But I didn't want to assume, so just posted what Lionel claimed on their website.

Thank you Ken now i have the numbers i can fix the elevation.

@waynef posted:

Thank you Ken now i have the numbers i can fix the elevation.

Wonderful!  Glad to help, and thanks for the discusson!