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I popped one handrail off.  It looks as though the nubs are cast.  I pulled on one and it didn't budge or turn.  I thought you were talking about a user doing the flip.  I would just move the motor which I do plan on doing which is why I got two of these.  I'll have a pair of FC GP20s and a pair of FC GP7s.

IMG_4369

Brendan

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Rayin"S" posted:

Mark, I have an RS-3 in Milwaukee Road paint and a pair of Burlington GP-35s that I have converted to TMCC using the ERR Mini-2. Go to their website and you will see the Mini-2 sells for $34.95. It is not a hard install and if you have any problems Ken at ERR is always ready to answer questions.

 


  

Mini Commander 2 Kit  (Vers 1)
     - Front/Rear LED's and Light Bulb outputs

Ray

   34.95
 


 

 

Ray,

I've seen an Amtrak F40PH in Youtube videos of your layout.  Is that one of the AM locomotives that you've installed a Mini-2 in?  Also could I save a few dollars and buy the DC version of an American Models locomotive? If I understand the functionality the Mini-2 or Cruise Lite handles the AC to DC conversion and directional changes so you don't need the AC version of the locomotive.

Craig

banjoflyer posted:
Brendan posted:

I popped one handrail off.  It looks as though the nubs are cast.  I pulled on one and it didn't budge or turn.  I thought you were talking about a user doing the flip.  I would just move the motor which I do plan on doing which is why I got two of these.  I'll have a pair of FC GP20s and a pair of FC GP7s.

 

Brendan

Sounds neat! Yeah I was talking about Lionel having nearly all they needed to crank out a FlyerChief GP20 using the GP7 as a starting point. Flipping the rails/shell and reversing the motor leads would be an easy way to go. Leave the motor where it is.

You gotta post pics when you're done with the switch.

Mark

Given there's a raised pad on the frame, two mounting posts right behind the cab and the handrail nubs (green arrows) would have to relocated in order to reverse the side handrails.  The 6 nubs aren't symmetrical front to back, it would mean Lionel would have to change the tool for the frame. 

NKP 514 122317 010 nubbins

It would be far and less costly easier for Lionel to move the motor to the back and make a new bracket for the board.

Rusty

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Last edited by Rusty Traque

Ray,

Thank you for your response.  Since you say the F40PH has "plenty of room in those for the Mini-2" I would guess that the Cruise Lite would also fit?

I'm glad you mentioned the SD-60 since I own one and it would be next on my list for modifications.  Which board(s) do you plan on using in that?

I've seen some Youtube videos of an ERR installation (in an O gauge locomotive).  I think it seems like just a matter of following the instructions.  In fact the toughest part may be finding a spot that is roomy and will provide a stable place for the board.

Craig

 

Ray,

Thanks for your follow up reply.  I saw your first response but had some more specific questions.  I haven't bought the F40PH yet so I can't measure it and since I can't measure it I wasn't sure if I should buy the Mini-2 or Cruise Lite.  A "chicken and egg" situation.  I should probably start with the SD-60 that I do own an buy a Mini-2.  Thank you for clarifying the situation.

Craig

Rusty brings up a good question, and I think the answer for me is “nope”. 

I am interested to see how the LionChief+ Scale(ish???) SD60M sells compared to the Legacy ones...all cataloged in the 2017 O Gauge signature catalogue. But for me, at this point, because there is no answer to the question of modern rolling stock, and the price point is lower for FC compared to Legacy, I would like to see the “Gilbert-esk” type products continue.  

I would love the recent UP Baldwin with FC/BT.  I would also think the ALCo PA could be a candidate too, but there are so many Legacy units out there now, I don’t know if it would fly.  But for the detail of the scale pieces that Rusty mentions, seems to me that’s the realm of full blown Legacy. 

Ben

If you have already purchased the Legacy Base Station with one or more remotes, you likely have little use for LionChief products of any kind. However, if you are coming from traditional AC transformer controls, you probably will find LionChief much more attractive.

Personally, I don't care for the Baldwin switcher because it is just too mis-shaped with that goofy oversized cab. The GP 7/9/20's flat handrails have turned me off of those locos, and the SD9 looks like just a GP with extra wheels. The recent Berkshire is very close to a home run, but I still am unhappy with those cast-in handrails on the boiler. I'm hoping the LionChief 4-8-4 I have coming will be as good as the Berkshire, but even with it's cast handrails, I think the Berkshire is a bit better looking, and a good indicator of where Lionel is heading with future S gauge items. Their recent bay window and EV cabooses with upgraded graphics, lights, windows & handrails are a big improvement over the old Gilbert versions, and the Polar Express passenger cars look a lot better in S than they do in O. 

Bill in FtL

Chuck K posted:
Rusty Traque posted

Is there any want/need/desire for FlyerChief U33C's, SD70's and/or ES44's?

Rusty

Not for me.  It's like going backwards to a lesser product from the greatness of the Legacy versions of these.

Speaking for myself as the one who posted the question:  I would only be interested if the FlyerChief board had DCC code embedded (as the HO Polar Express is supposed to have) and more importantly scale conversion wheels were available.

Rusty

Last edited by Rusty Traque

I now have four FlyerChief engines and if if FlyerChief had come before TMCC and Legacy I would never have invested in Legacy and its expensive engines.  This is really true if some of the late model diesels and detailed steam engines came with FlyerChief.  

The simpler and cheaper system does so much that the money and problems with Legacy stuff would be avoided.

Rusty Traque posted:

Is there any want/need/desire for FlyerChief U33C's, SD70's and/or ES44's?

Rusty

NOPE.

Own all of those diesel-electrics in Legacy. Have no need to own any of these with decidedly inferior operating and sound systems. Also, these might not be so affordable in FC+ form, given the higher level modeling detail and the two motors (SD and ES) that they have.

Respectfully,

Bob

 

Bob Bubeck posted:
Rusty Traque posted:

Is there any want/need/desire for FlyerChief U33C's, SD70's and/or ES44's?

Rusty

NOPE.

Own all of those diesel-electrics in Legacy. Have no need to own any of these with decidedly inferior operating and sound systems. Also, these might not be so affordable in FC+ form, given the higher level modeling detail and the two motors (SD and ES) that they have.

Respectfully,

Bob

 

Legacy snob...

 

Jokingly,

Jerry

poniaj posted:
Bob Bubeck posted:
Rusty Traque posted:

Is there any want/need/desire for FlyerChief U33C's, SD70's and/or ES44's?

Rusty

NOPE.

Own all of those diesel-electrics in Legacy. Have no need to own any of these with decidedly inferior operating and sound systems. Also, these might not be so affordable in FC+ form, given the higher level modeling detail and the two motors (SD and ES) that they have.

Respectfully,

Bob

 

Legacy snob...

 

Jokingly,

Jerry

You betcha! 

Bob

The lionchief Android app was actually updated the other day. I'm honestly surprised. I was not expecting frequent updates from big L.

 

Fix bugs including:
-Throttle response issues
-Bluetooth connectivity issues
-Screen sizing for some tablets
-Bluetooth permission dialog popping up more than once
-Default momentum changed to Low

Roundhouse Bill posted:

Bob (The Snob) Have you tried FlyerChief or are you just guessing that it is inferior?? 

I think there is almost no difference in sound quality and the engines operate just the same in terms of control.

Own a new NKP GP-7. Took delivery Christmas Eve. Its OK for the money and easily drops into a traditional Gilbert world. One can and usually does run them on a high constant voltage loop/layout, but ....

It is definitely not a Legacy engine. All I have to do is fire up (or just look at) my PRR Y3 to provide a reminder. Try setting up a double header. One can pair any SD70ACe or ES44es with another one. One can run them using DCC, too. The current generation of double PAs are readily configured to operate in tandem tail to tail due to the flexibility inherent to Legacy architecture. To these ears, the sounds and sound variations (e.g., laboring effects, whistle quality, etc.) available with some Legacy engines are superior to any FC+ L-AF engine, but then I am not bucking for a hearing aid (yet ). When you ran your BB the other day, did you not notice how comparably satisfying the sounds are?  And, that is a 9 year old piece.

Costs more, but you 'gets' more.

Respectfully,

Bob

Last edited by Bob Bubeck

The "Chief" control systems and Legacy are really aimed at different markets.  If there's some crossover by the Legacy folks, it makes Lionel happy. 

The simple fact is conventional control as a marketable scheme for Lionel has sailed into the sunset.  Lionel's O gauge starter sets aren't even able to be run conventionally, they don't have the conventional slide switch built in and there's no way to add it.  And all MTH sets use a stripped down DCS command system, although their locomotives still can be run conventionally and also have full featured Proto-3 in them.

After playing with a friend's GP7, the FC sound is OK, not a good in comparison as MTH's Proto-3 or Lionel's Legacy, but OK.  But, I'm neither here nor there about sound, I've even turned the sound off sometimes when running.  But, FlyerChief does offer smooth operation and control, something I care much more about than sound. 

If I was still interested in buying traditional type Flyer, the FC system wouldn't be a show-stopper for me.

Rusty

Last edited by Rusty Traque

I would imagine if you have a Legacy setup or DCC setup, it would be preferable to have to use only one controller especially if you have turnouts/routes controlled by Legacy or DCC.  If they could make the bluetooth app let you switch between locos easily, that would be nice.  

Brendan

Bob Bubeck posted:
Roundhouse Bill posted:

Bob (The Snob) Have you tried FlyerChief or are you just guessing that it is inferior?? 

I think there is almost no difference in sound quality and the engines operate just the same in terms of control.

Own a new NKP GP-7. Took delivery Christmas Eve. Its OK for the money and easily drops into a traditional Gilbert world. One can and usually does run them on a high constant voltage loop/layout, but ....

It is definitely not a Legacy engine. All I have to do is fire up (or just look at) my PRR Y3 to provide a reminder. Try setting up a double header. One can pair any SD70ACe or ES44es with another one. One can run them using DCC, too. The current generation of double PAs are readily configured to operate in tandem tail to tail due to the flexibility inherent to Legacy architecture. To these ears, the sounds and sound variations (e.g., laboring effects, whistle quality, etc.) available with some Legacy engines are superior to any FC+ L-AF engine, but then I am not bucking for a hearing aid (yet ). When you ran your BB the other day, did you not notice how comparably satisfying the sounds are?  And, that is a 9 year old piece.

Costs more, but you 'gets' more.

Respectfully,

Bob

Completely agree. Received my FC Northern today. Cost me less than half of what my Y-3 cost me and for obvious reasons...detail, sound quality, sound options, momentum function, start up, shut down, light control, and numerous other options available on Legacy. I like the FC Northern, but I would have been willing to pay double for a Legacy Northern detailed to the quality of the Y-3 and to have therefore maintained controlling all of my smart engines with one device.  Pretty sure this will be my last FC purchase unless something highly detailed comes out in the future in which case I might buy it and convert it to TMCC myself.

Chuck K posted:

  I don't think you're going top seeCompletely agree. Received my FC Northern today. Cost me less than half of what my Y-3 cost me and for obvious reasons...detail, sound quality, sound options, momentum function, start up, shut down, light control, and numerous other options available on Legacy. I like the FC Northern, but I would have been willing to pay double for a Legacy Northern detailed to the quality of the Y-3 and to have therefore maintained controlling all of my smart engines with one device.  Pretty sure this will be my last FC purchase unless something highly detailed comes out in the future in which case I might buy it and convert it to TMCC myself.

Don't forget, the F/C Northern is still based off of 1950's Gilbert tooling, which was a fairly good model of a UP FEF1 for it's time.

I don't think your going to see Lionel tool up another UP FEF1 with contemporary detail resolution.  Now, maybe folks could convince Lionel to do the UP FEF3 (UP 844,) an SP Daylight (4449,) N&W J (611) or maybe even an AT&SF 3751 (all presently operational well known locomotives in the real world,) but it would appear that Lionel isn't quite ready to commit to another Flyer Legacy steam locomotive at this time. 

For the Legacy price and contemporary detail resolution, all of the above would require all new tooling from the wheels up because plopping just a new highly detailed boiler adjusted to fit on the current Flyer Northern drive would result in awkward looking locomotives. 

I think the current push with FlyerChief is to try to expand the Flyer market using existing products.  If it wasn't for the Polar Express, I doubt Lionel would have done the F/C Berkshires.

Rusty

Rusty Traque posted:
Chuck K posted:

  I don't think you're going top seeCompletely agree. Received my FC Northern today. Cost me less than half of what my Y-3 cost me and for obvious reasons...detail, sound quality, sound options, momentum function, start up, shut down, light control, and numerous other options available on Legacy. I like the FC Northern, but I would have been willing to pay double for a Legacy Northern detailed to the quality of the Y-3 and to have therefore maintained controlling all of my smart engines with one device.  Pretty sure this will be my last FC purchase unless something highly detailed comes out in the future in which case I might buy it and convert it to TMCC myself.

Don't forget, the F/C Northern is still based off of 1950's Gilbert tooling, which was a fairly good model of a UP FEF1 for it's time.

 

<snip>

Rusty

Just so folks know, the only original Gilbert tool used in manufacturing the new L-AF Northerns (both conventional and FC+) is that for the pilot. That's it. The Gilbert tooling (for the boiler, for example) dated from 1939, was used with modifications through the 1950s, and was no longer usable to obtain quality castings. For example, by comparing the boiler casting in a new Northern and a Gilbert original, one can note that the newer tooled boiler is more round (and more prototypically correct). Essentially, Lionel tooled up an improved copy of the Gilbert model with the chassis being an all-new design.

I wrote of this aspect about the tooling  in my review of the new L-AF Northern in S Gaugian when it first appeared about 10 years ago.

Bob

Last edited by Bob Bubeck

I was at a local (Southeastern Michigan) train show years ago, when there was only talk of resurrecting the Northern.   Folks then were dumpster diving at the factory in Mount Clemens and some interesting things found their way on sellers' tables.  Unpainted freight and passenger car shells when the factory closed, and earlier on, some of what the seller said to be (and I don't suspect they weren't) factory test shots of Northern boilers using surviving Gilbert tooling.  They were ROUGH.  You could tell that the tooling was VERY well worn, and the fact that it hadn't been used in decades allowed the tools to corrode to a point where any castings from those tools would require too much final finishing to be practical.  I almost bought one of them simply because it would have made an interesting historical artifact, but the price was too high at the time.  In retrospect, it would have been cool to own one of those casting.  Alas, hindsight is always 20-20, isn't it?

 

poniaj posted:

I was at a local (Southeastern Michigan) train show years ago, when there was only talk of resurrecting the Northern.   Folks then were dumpster diving at the factory in Mount Clemens and some interesting things found their way on sellers' tables.  Unpainted freight and passenger car shells when the factory closed, and earlier on, some of what the seller said to be (and I don't suspect they weren't) factory test shots of Northern boilers using surviving Gilbert tooling.  They were ROUGH.  You could tell that the tooling was VERY well worn, and the fact that it hadn't been used in decades allowed the tools to corrode to a point where any castings from those tools would require too much final finishing to be practical.  I almost bought one of them simply because it would have made an interesting historical artifact, but the price was too high at the time.  In retrospect, it would have been cool to own one of those casting.  Alas, hindsight is always 20-20, isn't it?

 

Agreed.

Todd Wagner kindly permitted me to inspect (circa 2002) a test shot of the boiler from the original tooling. It wouldn't have been acceptable. I have a test shot of the Northern tender made with original tooling in my collection and, although not too awfully bad, the finish of the casting is not up to current standards and expectations. There are instances were the old tools fail. For example, this is why an all-new tool for the No. 936 depressed center reel car was made.  And, so forth.

Bob

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