Visibility of Engineers

Dan Padova posted:

So I'm sure this has been discussed sometime in the past.  It seems to me that the visibility of the track ahead, by the engineer, could be modest at best when driving, piloting, operating, whatever the correct term may be, steam locomotives and some electrics, like our beloved GG1.  

Cab signals played an important role, I'm sure.  But the view of what's ahead could not have been ideal, especially in the case of large steam locomotives.  

Anyone have any thoughts ?

Well, I know this subject was discussed here recently, but I can't seem to find it. Anyway, remember that "back in the day", there was also a Fireman on the left side, so that no matter whether it was a lefthand curve or a righthand curve, there was always a cab crew member "watching forward", on that side. Additionally, with say a steam locomotive or a GG1, anything that could not be seen within about 50 feet in front of the locomotive, simply got run over anyway.

Western Maryland 734, cab ride,  I was behind the fireman.  

It rained, the trip back to Cumberland. 

So running a steam loco, like the 734 or any steam loco is almost like working construction.  You're out in the weather, rain or shine, cold or hot, snow or whatever.

Interesting to note that, even though there was a very good mechanical stoker, the rear two corners of the fire box had to be hand shoveled. Wonderful ride. Don't wear your best clothes.    Relatively comfortable ride, colder weather even being close to the fire box would have been a bit uncomfortable. 

Dan Padova posted:

So running a steam loco, like the 734 or any steam loco is almost like working construction.  You're out in the weather, rain or shine, cold or hot, snow or whatever.

Yes.  No matter how much "fun" or "cool" it looks, it is actual work.

There can be very good days and very bad days.

Rusty

Rusty Traque posted:

Dan Padova posted:

So running a steam loco, like the 734 or any steam loco is almost like working construction.  You're out in the weather, rain or shine, cold or hot, snow or whatever.

Yes.  No matter how much "fun" or "cool" it looks, it is actual work.

There can be very good days and very bad days.

Absolutely correct, even on modern locomotives with "all weather cabs", such as UP 844 & 3985, or SP 4449. 

Rusty

Dan Padova posted:

So I'm sure this has been discussed sometime in the past.  It seems to me that the visibility of the track ahead, by the engineer, could be modest at best when driving, piloting, operating, whatever the correct term may be, steam locomotives and some electrics, like our beloved GG1.  

Cab signals played an important role, I'm sure.  But the view of what's ahead could not have been ideal, especially in the case of large steam locomotives.  

Anyone have any thoughts ?

I'm not sure what you're looking for. Is it hard to see in front of a steam engine? Yeah, on curves. "Modest?" I wouldn't say that. What, exactly, is your question?

As for you wondering what the correct term is for what a locomotive engineer does, you've been on this forum long enough to know that, unless you're in England, one does not "drive" a steam locomotive. "Piloting?" Seriously?

"Operate" is acceptable, but generally, one "runs" a steam locomotive.

This is a photo taken this past Saturday on the Everett RR's steam excursion to Martinsburg Jct.,PA.
Look how far the engineer is leaning out to watch the engine back onto the sharp curve of the wye track.

This day was 55 degrees with a steady breeze, imagine doing it in sub-zero cold or driving rain.

smd4 posted:

Dan Padova posted:

So I'm sure this has been discussed sometime in the past.  It seems to me that the visibility of the track ahead, by the engineer, could be modest at best when driving, piloting, operating, whatever the correct term may be, steam locomotives and some electrics, like our beloved GG1.  

Cab signals played an important role, I'm sure.  But the view of what's ahead could not have been ideal, especially in the case of large steam locomotives.  

Anyone have any thoughts ?

I'm not sure what you're looking for. Is it hard to see in front of a steam engine? Yeah, on curves. "Modest?" I wouldn't say that. What, exactly, is your question?

As for you wondering what the correct term is for what a locomotive engineer does, you've been on this forum long enough to know that, unless you're in England, one does not "drive" a steam locomotive. "Piloting?" Seriously?

"Operate" is acceptable, but generally, one "runs" a steam locomotive.

Maybe I've been on G Scale Central too long.....LOL

Rusty Traque posted:

Dan Padova posted:

So running a steam loco, like the 734 or any steam loco is almost like working construction.  You're out in the weather, rain or shine, cold or hot, snow or whatever.

Yes.  No matter how much "fun" or "cool" it looks, it is actual work.

There can be very good days and very bad days.

Rusty

During my working career, as a carpenter, I've had those days when I said to myself, WTF and I doing here.....LOL

I asked that question recently.  It still seems hairy.  For a shovel fed engine, wouldn’t the fireman be busy with that job, without eyes on the track?

I watched a show on tv recently about snowplows.  A guy was in the cab of the snow plow ahead of a CN F7 that was pushing it, of course with some force to get through the drifts.  Now that takes some stones.  

As far as working outside, I’ll never forget one Christmas Eve.  I was working as a carpenter and we had just topped off a townhouse building and I had to hang over the corner of the 8/12 pitch roof to cut off the last tail of subfascia with a 7 1/4” skilsaw to finish the job.  The snow was just starting to come down, huge flakes ever so gently, the sun was just visible behind the clouds and it was quiet as a mouse house except for the generator humming along.  I had 80’ of roof all to myself. With a view.  So I sat down on the ridge and contemplated life.  I’ll never forget that peaceful feeling and sense of accomplishment...

No matter how hard I try!

Cheers.

Like Jack and others, much more qualified than me, have stated, the fireman and engineer work as a team to call out signals and/or something fouling the track, etc. Typically you'll notice that the fireman will make an effort to look out in front of the locomotive from his seat or gangway while the locomotive approaches and starts to enter a grade crossing. This is obviously done in case a vehicle from the left side of the locomotive enters the crossing or tracks, but is still out of the line of sight of the engineer. 

Having taken various cab rides on smaller to medium sized steam locomotives, the line of sight is an issue, but just from a "layman's" standpoint you can still see plenty far ahead on your side of the locomotive without having to lean out very far. Now if we are talking about a C&O H9 or a UP 4000 or even the N&W Class A or Y that's a different story. Obviously, curves are a different animal too and that's where the communication between the fireman and engineer comes into play. 

I'm curious, Kelly, why is it so hard to see forward from an SW8 cab?

William 1 posted:

I asked that question recently.  It still seems hairy.  For a shovel fed engine, wouldn’t the fireman be busy with that job, without eyes on the track?

Cheers.

The fireman doesn't have to shovel all the time, at least not a good one.  While hand-bombing IRM's Frisco 1630 I had plenty of time to observe the track ahead.

Rusty

"The fireman doesn't have to shovel all the time, at least not a good one. "

As I recall, a VP of the DL&W testified against legislation requiring mechanical stokers, saying that the fireman could rest going downhill.

I have read enough real stories to realize that depending on the engineer, hand firing could be real work.  Kind of like shoveling ear corn into the sheller but a lot longer. 

wb47 posted:

I have read enough real stories to realize that depending on the engineer, hand firing could be real work.  Kind of like shoveling ear corn into the sheller but a lot longer. 

Absolutely yes, the Engineer can, and will, teach a new Fireman a real lesson. When I was learning to fire on the Buffalo Creek & Gauley RR in 1962/1963, I really thought I was getting better and better. Finally, the day came when I was to "fire on my own" with the regular Fireman simply riding the seat-box. I was doing pretty well, just as I was taught, firing the "horseshoe pattern", then resting awhile, then shoveling again. After the stop for water at Swandale, the ascending grade got steeper, for the final 8/9 miles up to the coal mile town of Widen, West Virginia. The further we went the more I had to shovel, eventually shoveling continuously, without a rest.

The next day, Hosteler Bob Curthers asked me how everything went. I told him everything. I smiled, and said, "How did the engine sound?", and I responded that she really sounded great, nice and loud! Bob smiled again and said, "No, I mean REALLY, how did the engine SOUND?".  I said that I didn't understand what he meant. Bob then went on to explain valve gear cut-off, and how the Engine could work a Fireman to death by keeping the power reverse gear way too far in the corner, thus wasting water and fuel. Bob then handed me a small piece of welders soap stone, and explained that when the big 2-8-0 sounds nice and sharp, and I'm able to follow the "normal" firing pattern, with rests, then note where the Engineer has the reverse gear set. Reach over his lap, and make THAT SPOT with your piece of soap stone.

Sure enough, after the water stop, I began to shovel harder and harder, and harder! I then remembered that I had used the soap stone to make the power reverse quadrant, when the exhaust sounded nice and sharp, and I was firing easy. Well I'll be darned! Engineer Jobe Young had the power reverse gear WAY FORWARD of my mark!!!!    I reached over, tapped Mr. Young on the shoulder, and pointed to my mark on the reverse quadrant. He smiled broadly, took his pipe out of his mouth and said, ""You're learning kid!", and promptly hooked her up where she was supposed to be. I've been learning about steam locomotive operations ever since.

Yeah buddy.  That’s what I’m talkin about.  Real stories.  Very cool.

You really don’t have to see ahead all that much. It’s not like you have to steer... 

OGR Webmaster posted:

You really don’t have to see ahead all that much. It’s not like you have to steer... 

It's a mind thing.  Most of us have a need to see what's ahead, whether we have any control over the outcome or not.  

Dan Padova posted:

OGR Webmaster posted:

You really don’t have to see ahead all that much. It’s not like you have to steer... 

It's a mind thing.  Most of us have a need to see what's ahead, whether we have any control over the outcome or not.  

I'm not sure why you think you can't see ahead. It's not like you're traveling blind in a steam locomotive. There are windows everywhere. Can't see on a curve, and you're freaking out? First, maybe you shouldn't be in a locomotive cab. Second, step over to the other side of the cab and look out the window if you need to. Or just hang out your window or door.

In addition to the Fireman's duty to tend the fire:

1.  There were not really many routes with cab signals.  Most steam engines operated on routes with wayside block signals, and a large amount of track routes had no signal system at all.  Operation there was strictly by timetable and train orders.

2.  At known locations, such as an open office of communication on a left hand curve, every Fireman stopped whatever he was doing and looked for the order board, then advised the Engineer by hand sign or by shouting, the color of the board.  If orders were to be picked up on the fly, it was normally the Fireman, standing in the gangway, who got them.  Even if no orders were to be picked up, the Fireman had to watch station employees as they gave a roll-by inspection from the station platform, and did the same every time they passed a track gang or signal maintainer on the left side.

3.  Nearing meeting points, any Fireman with a desire for survival frequently checked the track ahead to be sure that the opposing train had not overrun the meeting point.  He had to read the orders when they were received and that was the last he would see of them, so he also had to mentally keep aware of all meets and temporary speed restrictions.

4.  When there was a Brakeman in the cab, his duties included looking back at the train on curves, crossing over to the appropriate side gangway.  If the Brakeman was stationed elsewhere, the Fireman had to check the train on left hand curves.

5.  A fireman had a lot of things to watch, other than the fire -- water glass, steam gauge, etc. and had to keep the boiler water at the correct level for the terrain, periodically blow down the boiler, and, on oil-fired steam engines, sand the flues at appropriate intervals in appropriate locations.  On some railroads' engines, he also controlled the headlight and/or had the manual bell ringing duties.  All those valve handles on the left side of the backhead were his responsibility.

6.  None of his observations were made through glass, normally.  They were made while leaning out of an open cab window, or while standing in the gangway.

7.  About half the time, this was all done with little or no cooperation from the Engineer.  In the steam era, a lot of Engineers were unfriendly, cross, and critical toward Firemen.  A large number of Conductors treated their Brakemen the same.  Some Engineers and Conductors were fine gentlemen, but a large number had a somewhat regal view of their status on the crew.

Number 90 posted:

2.  At known locations, such as an open office of communication on a left hand curve, every Fireman stopped whatever he was doing and looked for the order board, then advised the Engineer by hand sign or by shouting, the color of the board.  If orders were to be picked up on the fly, it was normally the Fireman, standing in the gangway, who got them.  Even if no orders were to be picked up, the Fireman had to watch station employees as they gave a roll-by inspection from the station platform, and did the same every time they passed a track gang or signal maintainer on the left side.

3.  Nearing meeting points, any Fireman with a desire for survival frequently checked the track ahead to be sure that the opposing train had not overrun the meeting point.  He had to read the orders when they were received and that was the last he would see of them, so he also had to mentally keep aware of all meets and temporary speed restrictions.

5.  A fireman had a lot of things to watch, other than the fire -- water glass, steam gauge, etc. and had to keep the boiler water at the correct level for the terrain, periodically blow down the boiler, and, on oil-fired steam engines, sand the flues at appropriate intervals in appropriate locations.  On some railroads' engines, he also controlled the headlight and/or had the manual bell ringing duties.  All those valve handles on the left side of the backhead were his responsibility.

Nowadays, we call that "Multi-tasking."

Rusty

smd4 posted:

Dan Padova posted:

OGR Webmaster posted:

You really don’t have to see ahead all that much. It’s not like you have to steer... 

It's a mind thing.  Most of us have a need to see what's ahead, whether we have any control over the outcome or not.  

I'm not sure why you think you can't see ahead. It's not like you're traveling blind in a steam locomotive. There are windows everywhere. Can't see on a curve, and you're freaking out? First, maybe you shouldn't be in a locomotive cab. Second, step over to the other side of the cab and look out the window if you need to. Or just hang out your window or door.

I've never driven or have ridden in a steam locomotive.  I posted the initial question as a layman.  Maybe that's too difficult for you to understand.  Remember, learning is asking a bunch of questions and hoping the answers don't come from people who would like to belittle you.

When I was a union laborer I had a steady gig at the main yard with a heavy sewer and water outfit.  I worked with a crane operator all day loading and unloading big stuff onto flatbed trailers going to and from job sites.  One truck driver Glen was a mean cuss.  He liked me (tolerated might be more apt) so they would send me with him when a big rig on a low boy required a ‘flag man’.  Union rules. I never really did anything but ride shotgun.  I kept my mouth shut and would never dare to take initiative like unchaining or putting blocks down unless he did it first.  If I did, he would go off like he was set on fire.  Because you never did anything the right way in his eyes.  I am sure there were some days when I never said a single word.  That makes for a long day.  He couldn’t stand my partner at the yard, Pete.  Would never cut him any slack.  He was easier on me because I learned early just to stay quiet and just follow what he did.  Don’t make the first move.  Pete was always trying to be helpful and he hated that.  That guy was a nut job.  Mean and moody all of the time, then all of a sudden he would smile at you and say something half normal which would catch me off guard.  I never knew how to react to the guy.  I was glad when those days were over.  

I remember one time Pete and I kind of got, revenge isn’t the right word, but great satisfaction maybe, when Glen was loading a shallow tray like piece onto his trailer.  He had to do it his way, we could never make him happy.  Well this time he put two chains on opposite corners of this tray and decided to take a ride in it onto the trailer.  His son was the crane operator, no Prince Charming in his own right, and when he picked up the load the tray flipped and old Glen got tossed about head over heels and entangled in the chains.  Bad move Glen.  But it was great for us because the rat ******* got what he had coming to him.  It took every fiber in my being not to laugh out loud.  In fact I’m chuckling now thinking about it. I know Pete was smiling.  That was awesome.  Mr. perfect got his come uppance.  Hilarious.  

I know I strayed off topic a bit, but when it was mentioned that some engineers were mean guys it instantly brought back memories of Glen and what a jerk he was.  I never got that.  That guy was a human hemorrhoid.

Cheers.

Dan Padova posted:  

I've never driven or have ridden in a steam locomotive.  I posted the initial question as a layman.  Maybe that's too difficult for you to understand.  Remember, learning is asking a bunch of questions and hoping the answers don't come from people who would like to belittle you.

Again, you don't "drive" a steam locomotive in the U.S.

You didn't pose any question in your initial post. You made a bunch of statements in which you assumed certain things, and then asked for our thoughts. I tried to get you to clarify any question you may have had in my first post, asking directly, "What, exactly, is your question?", but you didn't respond to that.

Dan Padova posted:

OGR Webmaster posted:

You really don’t have to see ahead all that much. It’s not like you have to steer... 

It's a mind thing.  Most of us have a need to see what's ahead, whether we have any control over the outcome or not.  

That "need" is simply a function of being used to driving automobiles and really doesn't apply to this situation.

I'm not sure how much this applies to long distance routes, but I only became a decent fireman once I knew the route. Our railroad's profile is shaped like a big "W." Started off down grade, then up grade to the mid-point, down grade again, followed by a hard uphill at the end.

Once I knew the railroad, and all its crossings and landmarks, I was able to fire easily, getting my water and pressure ready during the downhill portions, while almost sitting back and relaxing on the uphill portions, because I had prepared on the down hills.

With firing, you have to keep an eye on the stack. So looking out the front window was second-nature. If I was busy, say, sanding the flues, the engineer blowing for a crossing would get my attention to look ahead and check for anything on the crossing.

smd4 posted:

Dan Padova posted:  

I've never driven or have ridden in a steam locomotive.  I posted the initial question as a layman.  Maybe that's too difficult for you to understand.  Remember, learning is asking a bunch of questions and hoping the answers don't come from people who would like to belittle you.

Again, you don't "drive" a steam locomotive in the U.S.

You didn't pose any question in your initial post. You made a bunch of statements in which you assumed certain things, and then asked for our thoughts. I tried to get you to clarify any question you may have had in my first post, asking directly, "What, exactly, is your question?", but you didn't respond to that.

I posed some thoughts in the hopes those with more knowledge than I would chime in with their take on the subject.  

I responded to your question by saying that maybe I have been spending too much time over on G Scale Central, where a sense of humor is commonplace, unlike here on OGR.

If I want to use the term, "drive", I can and will.  

I worked with guys having a know it all attitude, during my time as a carpenter.  It wasn't the work that was hard, it was certain people that made it hard.  

Dan Padova posted:

If I want to use the term, "drive", I can and will.  

 

As a carpenter, I'm pretty certain you would at least correct me, or think me an idiot, if I called a hammer a "nail-hitting thingy," or a saw a "wood cutter."

Use whatever term you want. Just don't be surprised at the reactions.

Dan, some of us have a sense of humor.  Others try to hide it.

Of course one shouldn't say "nail-driving thingy."  BE PRECISE!  Say "Left hand nail-driving thingy" or "Right-handed nail-driving thingy."

palallin posted:

That "need" is simply a function of being used to driving automobiles and really doesn't apply to this situation.

That is an excellent way to explain this.

Looking ahead in a locomotive, steam or diesel, is certainly important. However, since you don't have to steer, you are looking ahead for different types of guidance. You are looking for signals, curves, grades, switches, crossings, etc. But if you look away for a few seconds or you cannot see ahead very far, it's not that big a deal. I have run the 765 at 50 mph in pea soup fog that was so thick we couldn't see more than 2 or 3 car lengths ahead. But we COULD see the signals and the grade crossing signs, so we just kept on running and blowing for the crossings. Eventually we got out of the fog, but it was an interesting 20 miles or so.

In a locomotive it's a different sense of looking ahead than what you're used to in an automobile where you have to be vigilant every second to keep from running off the road or into someone else.

Dan Padova posted:

...If I want to use the term, "drive", I can and will...

Yes, you certainly can.

But using the term "drive" in the USA immediately brands you as someone who doesn't know anything about American railroading.

OGR Webmaster posted:

palallin posted:

That "need" is simply a function of being used to driving automobiles and really doesn't apply to this situation.

That is an excellent way to explain this.

Looking ahead in a locomotive, steam or diesel, is certainly important. However, since you don't have to steer, you are looking ahead for different types of guidance. You are looking for signals, curves, grades, switches, crossings, etc. But if you look away for a few seconds or you cannot see ahead very far, it's not that big a deal. I have run the 765 at 50 mph in pea soup fog that was so thick we couldn't see more than 2 or 3 car lengths ahead. But we COULD see the signals and the grade crossing signs, so we just kept on running and blowing for the crossings. Eventually we got out of the fog, but it was an interesting 20 miles or so.

In a locomotive it's a different sense of looking ahead than what you're used to in an automobile where you have to be vigilant every second to keep from running off the road or into someone else.

Dan Padova posted:

...If I want to use the term, "drive", I can and will...

Yes, you certainly can.

But using the term "drive" in the USA immediately brands you as someone who doesn't know anything about American railroading.

That's okay with me.  I'll simply be a sleeper.  Like the muscle cars of years ago that looked like junkers, but once moving they outshined the competition.....LOL

Dan Padova posted:

That's okay with me.  I'll simply be a sleeper.  Like the muscle cars of years ago that looked like junkers, but once moving they outshined the competition.....LOL

Say what?  I have no idea what that’s supposed to mean.

Rich:

A "sleeper" in hot rod parlance is a car that intentionally (or not) looks innocent, but packs a big punch. In illegal street racing a "sleeper" is one that is attempts to lure you into a race, then beat your socks off and take yer money.   I've only built one "sleeper" hot rod in the dateless past, and if the opponent is unsuspecting, you could indeed beat them and make off with the loot. However, I don't fully understand the usage of "sleeper" in the post above.

Also: Rich, you're wasting your breath (keystrokes!) about "drive" vs "running". I've also seen such on other railroad enthusiasts related forums: Traditional railroad terms mean nothing to them.

Andre

I know what a sleeper is. I own one. I still don’t get the context of the post within this thread.

It’s a shame that some people don’t care to actually learn anything about the subjects they profess to be interested in.

Dan Padova posted:

That's okay with me.  I'll simply be a sleeper.  Like the muscle cars of years ago that looked like junkers, but once moving they outshined the competition.....LOL

Who are you in competition with? Who are you trying to outshine? There's nothing competitive about folks simply trying to help you use the proper terminology.

You're welcome.

OK children,
Getting this slug-fest back on track, those big winged radiators on the new units make things hard to see when having to make single unit back up moves. You are running on the wrong side, with a long hood in your way trying to see signals. Even when the signal happens to be on your side, it is hard to see.

Thanks for getting us back on track, Jim. I completely agree with your statement!

I had better visibility looking forward on steam locomotive 765 than when running a typical diesel long hood first.