Thanks, certainly a high risk, high reward strategy with malls on the decline in many areas.  But some malls are thriving.  This is a relatively innovative approach to retail,  with the mall as a destination for entertainment as well as shopping.  Probably the only way malls are going to survive in many places.  Might be particularly successful in areas with severe winters .

Hopefully there will be a significant amount of foot traffic after the newness wears off. Sounds like Lionel will be selling product there for both Lionel Trains and NASCAR model race cars. I would think with the significant drop in NASCAR attendance Lionels NASCAR diecast division is taking a hit in sales at the race tracks.

   Bill T

Landsteiner posted:

Thanks, certainly a high risk, high reward strategy with malls on the decline in many areas.  But some malls are thriving.  This is a relatively innovative approach to retail,  with the mall as a destination for entertainment as well as shopping.  Probably the only way malls are going to survive in many places.  Might be particularly successful in areas with severe winters .

With many of these malls, they must be giving away the store footage so the places are not 70% vacant. Was in a mall recently where JC Penny and two other "flagship" stores closed, it is about 30% blocked former store fronts and about 30% stores where only the front 10% of the space is used for things like portrait photo shops etc. Very sad.

Bill T posted:

Hopefully there will be a significant amount of foot traffic after the newness wears off. Sounds like Lionel will be selling product there for both Lionel Trains and NASCAR model race cars. I would think with the significant drop in NASCAR attendance Lionels NASCAR diecast division is taking a hit in sales at the race tracks.

   Bill T

The amount of empty seats at NASCAR races is truly astonishing, and even worse when you realize many of those tracks have pulled seats out. And who knows what the fallout will be with the CEO stepping down indefinitely as it now seems that maybe every business or sport with worker drug testing should have management drug testing as well.

Anyone know the population in the area? The amount of 3 rail O train folks within driving distance?

Looking forward to seeing pictures of the store once it is set up.

Yeah Lionel!  Sounds to me like Howard Hitchcock and Lionel upper management truly have an exciting "Visionline"  for Lionel as a company.  Very creative outside the box thinking on behalf of Lionel.  I applaud their risk taking venture and wish it every success for both Lionel and our wonderful hobby.  If this venture prooves to be successful, we in this wonderful hobby all win ... both participants/practioners and other manufactures of model/toy trains.   

I was also pleased to hear that Lionel sales were up last year!  A good sign for all involved in the hobby!  

And it will look like this!

I do wonder how Lionel’s retailers feel about this development?

Dave Warburton posted:

I do wonder how Lionel’s retailers feel about this development?

They had the same store in their corporate offices.  I don't see much of a change.  Of course if they start expanding that could be a problem.

that mall is always packed. Hope they do well, but if you are charging MSRP for everything, that could turn some folks away w/ sticker shock 

Dave Warburton posted:

I do wonder how Lionel’s retailers feel about this development?

Not warm and fuzzy, but we are probably not all that surprised by Lionel's move either.

A question for Lionel:

Has the Lionchief Thomas Tank Engine starter sets with Bluetooth shipped yet?  Our customers have been waiting for them since we placed our order in February, 2017 which was 18 months ago.

Kind of makes sense, given the Mall has foot traffic, and it may get people in and curious, especially having a display layout there. I don't think other Lionel dealers will have to worry, likely they will charge full MSRP at the store, and most dealers give some kind of discount. Will this work? Not sure, but given this is replacing the one at their HQ, it seems like this is a smart move. 

Dave Warburton posted:

I do wonder how Lionel’s retailers feel about this development?

Ditto!!!!!!!!!  And there is a local toy train shop but 30-miles away.  And this shop is the only train shop within 50/60-miles of Charlotte.

Ron

Could actually help dealers, by exposing substantially more customers/families to the pleasures of toy trains, then directing them to local retailers, if there are any.  And the latter may have prices that are 5-10% lower than Lionel's store, seeming like a bargain . 

17 million pairs of feet apparently go through this mall.  I'd guess that's about 10,000 to 100,000 times the number that go through the average train store each year.

In some metro areas, there are no Lionel dealers except in the suburbs,  and the number won't be increasing in all likelihood. If Lionel opened five stores in the next five years, that would be a lot.  

In addition, I'm guessing they are not going to feature Vision Line locos at $1200-2000, but rather sets at $200-400, which will not be sticker shock for many customers.  Thomas at $119, track at $5.00 a section, etc.  Walk through a mall and check out the high end retailers, and much of Lionel's product line will not be at the high end .  Williams-Sonoma, Apple, Brooks Brothers, etc.  $90 for a men's button down dress shirt.  I'd rather have a boxcar or 1.5 boxcars.  Then again, Brookstone is abandoning the malls and declaring bankruptcy because business for their high-end stuff has cratered.  Time will tell.

I like the idea but I hate MSRP.  There is a pretty big difference between MSRP and what we actually pay.  Maybe it's a numbers game but I feel like the hobby is way more affordable than those catalog prices.  I think the exposure is fantastic but I think people will be turned completely off if they see MSRP prices.  Somehow they need to be educated about the real prices.  Big difference in paying $65 for an Automatic Gateman vs $100.  Otherwise I think it's great.  BigRail

Landsteiner posted:

Could actually help dealers, by exposing substantially more customers/families to the pleasures of toy trains, then directing them to local retailers, if there are any.  And the latter may have prices that are 5-10% lower than Lionel's store, seeming like a bargain . 

17 million pairs of feet apparently go through this mall.  I'd guess that's about 10,000 to 100,000 times the number that go through the average train store each year.

In some metro areas, there are no Lionel dealers except in the suburbs,  and the number won't be increasing in all likelihood. If Lionel opened five stores in the next five years, that would be a lot.  

In addition, I'm guessing they are not going to feature Vision Line locos at $1200-2000, but rather sets at $200-400, which will not be sticker shock for many customers.  Thomas at $119, track at $5.00 a section, etc.  Walk through a mall and check out the high end retailers, and much of Lionel's product line will not be at the high end .  Williams-Sonoma, Apple, Brooks Brothers, etc.  $90 for a men's button down dress shirt.  I'd rather have a boxcar or 1.5 boxcars.  Then again, Brookstone is abandoning the malls and declaring bankruptcy because business for their high-end stuff has cratered.  Time will tell.

$90 for a button down shirt?  Allow me to introduce the masses to Costco.  Durable, we'll made, button down shirts for less than a third of that.  BigRail

Hahahahha    this place keeps me entertained.  All of the expert business analysts we have, I am surprised no one from this forum opens up a train company.

Lionel's press release posted:

The store is the first step in what could be a larger expansion into retail sales.

Per Hitchcock, “Our goal is to start in Concord Mills and build a template that could work in other shopping locations across the United States.”

Landsteiner posted:

Could actually help dealers, by exposing substantially more customers/families to the pleasures of toy trains, then directing them to local retailers, if there are any.  And the latter may have prices that are 5-10% lower than Lionel's store, seeming like a bargain . 

...Time will tell.

Yes, keep telling yourself and all the remaining dealers that this direct to consumer move is for their betterment.  More likely, it's that Lionel wants to find its way to improve and perfect its possible direct sales methods as response to (as Landsteiner alludes above) the reality of the ever shrinking and weakened retail dealer supply channel that they and all the other train hobby companies have experienced over the past 10 plus years.  We likely agree that Lionel Trains needs to do what's in Lionel's best (hopefully long-term) interest.  However, there's reasonable concern by some to any company that is one piece of a much larger investment ownership group's portfolio, and subject to decisions or operating constraints made by the top that are for the betterment of the whole portfolio and sometimes may not be in best interest of one participant company.  The big dealers and smartly run smaller outfits will, as always, wisely and creatively adapt to future consumer and manufacturer supply and demand.

A question to be asked: What is Lionel's lease term in this new location?  The lease term and opt-out options would indicate if the amount of commitment Lionel has towards this endeavor.  Will it be a 6 month entering Christmas/Holiday toy train season trial or will it go further?

EscapeRocks posted:

Hahahahha    this place keeps me entertained.  All of the expert business analysts we have, I am surprised no one from this forum opens up a train company.

Well, at least ONE guy who posts here OWNS a train company.  

EscapeRocks posted:

Hahahahha    this place keeps me entertained.  All of the expert business analysts we have, I am surprised no one from this forum opens up a train company.

A number of people on here have dealt with various businesses or have advanced business and management training that are relevant to the business at hand.  The train business is no different than any other consumer or hobby product out there, there are other niche markets out there, too (take a look sometime, for example, at high end audio with things like tube amps, similar market in some ways) and people were commenting about how they saw this panning out. Given that none of us are being paid to comment, and it is simply shooting the breeze electronically, I never understood why some get their nose bent out of joint when people speculate on here or comment. I had another post on here where I posted something about Apple and how its outsourcing works, one person who has dealt with outsourcing critiqued it based on his experience, and while some of his observations I think didn't really cover what the article said, it was interesting (and it is just opinion), but then I had someone give me the old crap line "what does a business professor know? They don't know nothing" (hate to tell the person who wrote that line, but guys like the person who wrote that article are  paid a lot of money by businesses out there, to analyze their business and give them suggestions, and people like the author whether people like it or not are the ones who shape how businesses are run, so yeah, they do know something that Sal the barber or Joe the Plumber don't know).  

And maybe the fact that people don't open their own train company indicates they are an expert, if you want  to make money there are a heck of a lot better ways to do it

A few years ago, Lionel opened holiday pop-up stores in NYC and New Jersey. I don't remember hearing how Lionel made out with that experiment, but the post-holiday closing produced some great close out prices both on site & by mail order.

Tony

Up on "The D & H Bridge Line" -- Proud LOTS & TTOS member 

I'll be in the area 9/22-24 so looks like I need to stop by. Concord Mills is HUGE place.....so big and so many people I avoid when I can....but that's good for the hobby.....and the fact that the nearest hobby shop is miles north in Spencer NC it will be nice to have a train hobby shop.....first since Trains, LLC closed years ago. Good luck!!

MSRP will/would turn off the majority of newcomers away.  Not help promote the hobby in any way....

AMCDave posted:

I'll be in the area 9/22-24 so looks like I need to stop by. Concord Mills is HUGE place.....so big and so many people I avoid when I can....but that's good for the hobby.....and the fact that the nearest hobby shop is miles north in Spencer NC it will be nice to have a train hobby shop.....first since Trains, LLC closed years ago. Good luck!!

Hi Dave, looks like you picked a good time to visit as 611 will be under steam at Spencer that weekend!

rickoshay posted:

AMCDave posted:

I'll be in the area 9/22-24 so looks like I need to stop by. Concord Mills is HUGE place.....so big and so many people I avoid when I can....but that's good for the hobby.....and the fact that the nearest hobby shop is miles north in Spencer NC it will be nice to have a train hobby shop.....first since Trains, LLC closed years ago. Good luck!!

Hi Dave, looks like you picked a good time to visit as 611 will be under steam at Spencer that weekend!

Wow!! I gave money to 'Fire Up' but yet to see her 'fired'!!! thanks

bigkid posted:

EscapeRocks posted:

Hahahahha    this place keeps me entertained.  All of the expert business analysts we have, I am surprised no one from this forum opens up a train company.

A number of people on here have dealt with various businesses or have advanced business and management training that are relevant to the business at hand.  The train business is no different than any other consumer or hobby product out there, there are other niche markets out there, too (take a look sometime, for example, at high end audio with things like tube amps, similar market in some ways) and people were commenting about how they saw this panning out. Given that none of us are being paid to comment, and it is simply shooting the breeze electronically, I never understood why some get their nose bent out of joint when people speculate on here or comment. I had another post on here where I posted something about Apple and how its outsourcing works, one person who has dealt with outsourcing critiqued it based on his experience, and while some of his observations I think didn't really cover what the article said, it was interesting (and it is just opinion), but then I had someone give me the old crap line "what does a business professor know? They don't know nothing" (hate to tell the person who wrote that line, but guys like the person who wrote that article are  paid a lot of money by businesses out there, to analyze their business and give them suggestions, and people like the author whether people like it or not are the ones who shape how businesses are run, so yeah, they do know something that Sal the barber or Joe the Plumber don't know).  

And maybe the fact that people don't open their own train company indicates they are an expert, if you want  to make money there are a heck of a lot better ways to do it

Don't assume I don't fall into the highlighted category either

Usually when I make a comment like that it's after reading the whole thread, and seeing how people take it sideways to get their jabs in, so to speak, at Lionel/MTH, whomever.     In the 16 years I've been active on this Forum, it seems it is a full time hobby of some to analyze and nitpick every little thing that the bigger companies do, in a general sense.   Secondly if you look at history here, it's always the same handful of people who barge into a thread to spread their business acumen, which I am sure is good.    It just often comes off as , "I'm smarter than everyone...."

When my music career took hold several years ago, I got out of the family business, as far as daily operations.  We've been around since 1899, so we understand a thing or two about how to adapt, what works, etc...

Anyway, we now return you to your regularly schedule program, already in progress

Train Nut posted:

MSRP will/would turn off the majority of newcomers away.  Not help promote the hobby in any way....

An occasional "special"  or Groupon coupon can change that - Also there may be an old fashioned concept  re-emerge - saving up for something you want.

It will also give them the experience that I would see in the 2 NYC pop up stores - The door would fly open and someone would say "I didn't know Lionel was still in business."

Every single member of Lionel's marketing and sales staff should be required to spend 5 days (not necessarily in a row) in the shop to meet and experience Lionel's customers and potential customers.  Most of them have that experience at train shows, but that is a different crowd.

I think everyone is missing the point... Its not about the price and what things will cost and making other retail stores upset. Its about showing the public what Lionel trains is...

Does anyone remember when you and the family could sign up for the Lionel factory tour, watch a quick video of the history of Lionel, and move into a large display room and watch the Lionel Factory Display Layout?  Then you would be given a copy of the latest catalog and peruse the Lionel Gift shop?  What was also cool was the Lionel had a scratch and dent sale... with your LCCA club card you could purchase items that were discounted an additional 20 percent off!

Yes the factory tour may be something that is not available anymore. However, I like the idea of introducing the public to new products with hands on displays and how to do it type workshops.

This is only a win - win scenario for the hobby.

I don't think anyone's missing the point. If it's a store, that would imply they are selling things. If they are selling things at MSRP, that will be a complete turn-off to most people. An informative showroom without selling would be an awesome thing. But you know as well as I know something like that is not possible.

Train Nut posted:

I don't think anyone's missing the point. If it's a store, that would imply they are selling things. If they are selling things at MSRP, that will be a complete turn-off to most people. An informative showroom without selling would be an awesome thing. But you know as well as I know something like that is not possible.

That would be Lionel's problem.  And I don't think it will be a problem.  Time after time the "adjusted for inflation" table has been shown here, and Lionel Trains were and are expensive.

Out here in SoCal, MSRP is SOP for pretty much all train retailers. Most seem to be doing pretty well, too, despite the high prices. 

Dave Warburton posted:

Out here in SoCal, MSRP is SOP for pretty much all train retailers. Most seem to be doing pretty well, too, despite the high prices. 

Compared to everything else.....property taxes, auto taxes, tags, fees, insurance and fuel..... trains are a drop in the bucket!!!

Good move by Lionel.  No one knows or cares about model trains right now -- especially younger generations.  How in the world are you supposed to get trains in front of people today?  It didn't work at Target a few years ago because they were just boxes on the shelf and the most expensive toys in the toy department.  There was no room for a layout.  Trains needs to be demonstrated and this store will do exactly that.  The mom walks in and remembers her dad having a set when she was a kid and the pull of nostalgia makes her want her kids to have the same thing.  Bam.  

I hope it's successful and they can make it last.  As for the dealers, this will only help them.  Face it, few newtimers are walking into a hobby shop to buy their starter set.  They are buying from Amazon.  The hobby shops aren't getting those sales anyway.  But this move by Lionel will get more people into the hobby, which means more visits to the hobby shops.

My two cents...

It seems to me that many people felt Apple was making a mistake years ago with their stores. Today, Apple has a few hundred stores and the products in them are sold at full MSRP. Yet they sell billions of dollars every year. 

If people like and want the product then people will pay for the product. It doesn’t matter if it is MSRP or not. Apple is a clear example of this. 

Now, I am not saying Lionel is Apple and they, of course, are in two different industries, but anything can happen. 

I wish Lionel the best.  If it helps the hobby, then I am all for it.

Carl Peduzzi posted:

My two cents...

It seems to me that many people felt Apple was making a mistake years ago with their stores. Today, Apple has a few hundred stores and the products in them are sold at full MSRP. Yet they sell billions of dollars every year. 

If people like and want the product then people will pay for the product. It doesn’t matter if it is MSRP or not. Apple is a clear example of this. 

Now, I am not saying Lionel is Apple and they, of course, are in two different industries, but anything can happen. 

I wish Lionel the best.  If it helps the hobby, then I am all for it.

Carl you are trying to compare Apples to Oranges.

Ron

PRRronbh posted:

Carl Peduzzi posted:

My two cents...

It seems to me that many people felt Apple was making a mistake years ago with their stores. Today, Apple has a few hundred stores and the products in them are sold at full MSRP. Yet they sell billions of dollars every year. 

If people like and want the product then people will pay for the product. It doesn’t matter if it is MSRP or not. Apple is a clear example of this. 

Now, I am not saying Lionel is Apple and they, of course, are in two different industries, but anything can happen. 

I wish Lionel the best.  If it helps the hobby, then I am all for it.

Carl you are trying to compare Apples to Oranges.

Ron

Maybe I am. At the same time, I am being optimistic that this will work out for them and the hobby. 

EscapeRocks posted:

bigkid posted:

EscapeRocks posted:

Hahahahha    this place keeps me entertained.  All of the expert business analysts we have, I am surprised no one from this forum opens up a train company.

A number of people on here have dealt with various businesses or have advanced business and management training that are relevant to the business at hand.  The train business is no different than any other consumer or hobby product out there, there are other niche markets out there, too (take a look sometime, for example, at high end audio with things like tube amps, similar market in some ways) and people were commenting about how they saw this panning out. Given that none of us are being paid to comment, and it is simply shooting the breeze electronically, I never understood why some get their nose bent out of joint when people speculate on here or comment. I had another post on here where I posted something about Apple and how its outsourcing works, one person who has dealt with outsourcing critiqued it based on his experience, and while some of his observations I think didn't really cover what the article said, it was interesting (and it is just opinion), but then I had someone give me the old crap line "what does a business professor know? They don't know nothing" (hate to tell the person who wrote that line, but guys like the person who wrote that article are  paid a lot of money by businesses out there, to analyze their business and give them suggestions, and people like the author whether people like it or not are the ones who shape how businesses are run, so yeah, they do know something that Sal the barber or Joe the Plumber don't know).  

And maybe the fact that people don't open their own train company indicates they are an expert, if you want  to make money there are a heck of a lot better ways to do it

Don't assume I don't fall into the highlighted category either

Usually when I make a comment like that it's after reading the whole thread, and seeing how people take it sideways to get their jabs in, so to speak, at Lionel/MTH, whomever.     In the 16 years I've been active on this Forum, it seems it is a full time hobby of some to analyze and nitpick every little thing that the bigger companies do, in a general sense.   Secondly if you look at history here, it's always the same handful of people who barge into a thread to spread their business acumen, which I am sure is good.    It just often comes off as , "I'm smarter than everyone...."

When my music career took hold several years ago, I got out of the family business, as far as daily operations.  We've been around since 1899, so we understand a thing or two about how to adapt, what works, etc...

 

Anyway, we now return you to your regularly schedule program, already in progress

 

 

 

I get what you are saying and who it was aimed at, I am on the same page, these are often the same people when someone refers to what experts in a field have said, will tell you "what do they know, everyone knows they don't know anything" *grr*. 1899, huh? That is a long time in a world where tech company lifetimes are often measured in microseconds

I suspect people may be putting the cart before the horse with this, assuming because Lionel has opened a store in a local mall that this is going to become another Apple store kind of thing, and I am not so certain. Having a store in a mall makes sense, with the foot traffic there (whereas with having a Lionel store at the headquarters, how many people go there other than train enthusiasts?), and it could be it was cheaper having space in the mall then their headquarters, they may be able to reuse the space there or sublet it to another tenant and in the end , do better financially....

Could they open other stores? They may do so in certain targeted regions as a marketing kind of thing (would be kind of like the Lionel showroom in the old days, where the prime reason is to display Lionel products), but given the strength of Internet sales, I am not sure  putting up a chain of brick and mortar stores makes sense, not with the demographics of the product.

Apple is very, very different, you are talking a company that when they established the Apple stores, already was a mega corporation, they were well away from the days where Microsoft had to help bail them out and they were tottering (when Jobs came back).  There are some parallels, Apple stores tend to be in strategic and upscale areas and in higher end malls, and they are selling an image as much as the product IME. More importantly, they don't really compete against other retailers, because Apple products don't really sell at a discount, things like Iphones and Pads and Macs sell pretty much at list price, you might seem them slightly discounted at Best Buy for example, but mostly you are paying full retail, it is more about convenience.

One of the things with Apple stores is you can take things there when you have problems and get help/support/repairs. That would be an interesting model for Lionel if they had enough of a market, having service centers at the stores to help with the kinds of problems we see on here. As the market currently is that wouldn't make much sense, there is a big difference between Apple with mega millions of people with their products, and Lionel with its relatively limited base probably measured in the 10's of thousands who would use that (speculating here, I don't know how many people are active in 3 rail and use modern Lionel products; if they had service at the stores, I suspect it would be  for current offering support, not fixing an e-unit on a 1950's post war engine). 

I don't think you will see Lionel expanding it much,in any event. Apple, as huge as they are, has only 272 stores in the US, and most of those are concentrated in city/metropolitan areas, and that is a mega company. 

Train Nut posted:

...If they are selling things at MSRP, that will be a complete turn-off to most people....

The people this store will cater to have no idea what the MSRP is on a Lionel product. The product will be in the store with a price tag. If they want it, they’ll buy it. Simple.