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You're assuming that they care enough to do anything about it. 

Or that the American companies who import their goods are going to pressure them to clean up their act.  This situation will not change until the American importers get some serious push back from us, the consumers.

 

Agree. Push back from the consumer is required. That's why I said something to MTH at the fall York meet. I was told they were confident the issue would not repeat. But absent any actual testing or certification of the product or the melt before it gets to us the consumer, I will remain skeptical. And unfortunately for us, in many cases, it takes 5 years or more (well past the warranty period) for the issue to become apparent. So we get left holding a bag of unusable, albeit expensive, junk.

 

Chris

LVHR

chug posted:

With this topic back in play, I wish to add an update to my original post. Fortunately, I was able to obtain replacements for the damaged underbody detail casting on my Lionel passenger cars from Lionel. At $10 apiece it did not break the bank and I did buy extras. It is becoming increasing difficult to obtain replacement parts for modern generation trains and I was lucky to find these parts still available.

Now if Mike Wolf would just re-introduce the P5a Boxcab and run off some spare body shells.......

Eric Hofberg

While $10 per part may not break the bank, from an ethical standpoint, I think that it is unconscionable for Lionel to charge you for the part. Zinc pest is the definition of a manufacturer's defect. It is an insidious one at that, since as we know, it can take longer to manifest if the items are stored in ideal conditions. Once a batch has been identified as having the defect, the company should be recalling the entire batch, regardless of whether or not the warranty has expired. That the industry as a whole has not stepped it up and eliminated this problem shows a lack of respect for their customers.

If MTH has stepped up their quality control and worked with their manufacturers to eliminate their problem, good for them. But they still should be recalling all defective products, regardless of age. If they already have, bravo!

@MATT GNO27 I agree with your sentiment, but a recall is about product safety.  It would also be burdensome for Lionel to figure out who actually bought their products, because unlike cars, trains are not required to maintain any kind of ownership or registration.

I do agree that for the sake of their reputation and customer goodwill, they should agree to replace items ruined by zinc pest if good spares are available and not also affected.  But given today's smaller production runs, I think we have to accept the risk that our trains may crumble and a replacement part may not be available.   Hopefully things like 3D printing, CNC milling, etc., will allow specialty suppliers to make replacement parts affordably.

Train "collecting" became a thing in the 1950s with early Standard Gauge.  Eventually several 3rd party folks such as MEW, Henning, etc. made wheels and parts to replace the crumbling 1920s originals.  A lot of those trains are still running!  So there is hope...

 

Ted S posted:

@MATT GNO27 I agree with your sentiment, but a recall is about product safety.  It would also be burdensome for Lionel to figure out who actually bought their products, because unlike cars, trains are not required to maintain any kind of ownership or registration.

 

 I had thought about addressing this. It is my understanding that recalls aren't always on safety grounds, however, the ones that are, do not expire, regardless of ownership.

While there obviously aren't safety issues with crumbing cars, zinc pest will destroy the product or critical parts. I don't expect the Lionel, MTH, Atlas, etc., to track down every purchaser of a defective product. They should notify all dealers and licensed technicians, so that anyone who brings in a defective item can be given a replacement part or entire piece, as needed, and publicize the recall to the best of their ability, within reason.

Ted S posted:

I do agree that for the sake of their reputation and customer goodwill, they should agree to replace items ruined by zinc pest if good spares are available and not also affected.  But given today's smaller production runs, I think we have to accept the risk that our trains may crumble and a replacement part may not be available.   Hopefully things like 3D printing, CNC milling, etc., will allow specialty suppliers to make replacement parts affordably.

To me it is unacceptable that our trains may crumble. It is my understanding that with proper quality control, it is possible to eliminate this problem. Model/toy trains, in general have never been inexpensive, they are a high-end product. When we spend fifty to hundreds of dollars on a car and hundreds to thousands of dollars on a locomotive, it is entirely reasonable to expect that they should last for decades, when well-cared for. Shrugging it off as an accepted risk is, in my view, wasteful consumerism.

Matt_GNo27 posted:
Ted S posted:

@MATT GNO27 I agree with your sentiment, but a recall is about product safety.  It would also be burdensome for Lionel to figure out who actually bought their products, because unlike cars, trains are not required to maintain any kind of ownership or registration.

 

 I had thought about addressing this. It is my understanding that recalls aren't always on safety grounds, however, the ones that are, do not expire, regardless of ownership.

While there obviously aren't safety issues with crumbing cars, zinc pest will destroy the product or critical parts. I don't expect the Lionel, MTH, Atlas, etc., to track down every purchaser of a defective product. They should notify all dealers and licensed technicians, so that anyone who brings in a defective item can be given a replacement part or entire piece, as needed, and publicize the recall to the best of their ability, within reason.

Ted S posted:

I do agree that for the sake of their reputation and customer goodwill, they should agree to replace items ruined by zinc pest if good spares are available and not also affected.  But given today's smaller production runs, I think we have to accept the risk that our trains may crumble and a replacement part may not be available.   Hopefully things like 3D printing, CNC milling, etc., will allow specialty suppliers to make replacement parts affordably.

To me it is unacceptable that our trains may crumble. It is my understanding that with proper quality control, it is possible to eliminate this problem. Model/toy trains, in general have never been inexpensive, they are a high-end product. When we spend fifty to hundreds of dollars on a car and hundreds to thousands of dollars on a locomotive, it is entirely reasonable to expect that they should last for decades, when well-cared for. Shrugging it off as an accepted risk is, in my view, wasteful consumerism.

Actually there is. electrical shorts causing fires.

I seem to remember something with the K-Line heavyweight cars recalled due to shorting.

BobbyD posted:
Matt_GNo27 posted:
Ted S posted:

@MATT GNO27 I agree with your sentiment, but a recall is about product safety.  It would also be burdensome for Lionel to figure out who actually bought their products, because unlike cars, trains are not required to maintain any kind of ownership or registration.

 I had thought about addressing this. It is my understanding that recalls aren't always on safety grounds, however, the ones that are, do not expire, regardless of ownership.

While there obviously aren't safety issues with crumbing cars, zinc pest will destroy the product or critical parts. I don't expect the Lionel, MTH, Atlas, etc., to track down every purchaser of a defective product. They should notify all dealers and licensed technicians, so that anyone who brings in a defective item can be given a replacement part or entire piece, as needed, and publicize the recall to the best of their ability, within reason.

Actually there is. electrical shorts causing fires.

I seem to remember something with the K-Line heavyweight cars recalled due to shorting.

DSCN7070

All you had to do was ask and Chapel Hill sent as many washers as you requested along with the directions shown.  Not difficult to do - remove the floor, remove the truck (taking care not to lose the C-clip), place the washer in position, replace the truck and replace the floor.  I requested enough washers for the cars owned by our module group members and shared them.  John in Lansing, ILL

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Last edited by rattler21
BobbyD posted:
Matt_GNo27 posted:
Ted S posted:

@MATT GNO27 I agree with your sentiment, but a recall is about product safety.  It would also be burdensome for Lionel to figure out who actually bought their products, because unlike cars, trains are not required to maintain any kind of ownership or registration.

 

 I had thought about addressing this. It is my understanding that recalls aren't always on safety grounds, however, the ones that are, do not expire, regardless of ownership.

While there obviously aren't safety issues with crumbing cars, zinc pest will destroy the product or critical parts. I don't expect the Lionel, MTH, Atlas, etc., to track down every purchaser of a defective product. They should notify all dealers and licensed technicians, so that anyone who brings in a defective item can be given a replacement part or entire piece, as needed, and publicize the recall to the best of their ability, within reason.

Ted S posted:

I do agree that for the sake of their reputation and customer goodwill, they should agree to replace items ruined by zinc pest if good spares are available and not also affected.  But given today's smaller production runs, I think we have to accept the risk that our trains may crumble and a replacement part may not be available.   Hopefully things like 3D printing, CNC milling, etc., will allow specialty suppliers to make replacement parts affordably.

To me it is unacceptable that our trains may crumble. It is my understanding that with proper quality control, it is possible to eliminate this problem. Model/toy trains, in general have never been inexpensive, they are a high-end product. When we spend fifty to hundreds of dollars on a car and hundreds to thousands of dollars on a locomotive, it is entirely reasonable to expect that they should last for decades, when well-cared for. Shrugging it off as an accepted risk is, in my view, wasteful consumerism.

Actually there is. electrical shorts causing fires.

I seem to remember something with the K-Line heavyweight cars recalled due to shorting.

I had one of those early K-Line heavyweight cars catch fire, but I shut the power off before it melted the car.  However, I had no idea they were ever recalled.  The dealer I bought them from, it was a NYC coach, was present at my house when it happened, and he never told me they were recalled and I didn't get a notice.  I will take them apart and check them out if I run them again.

Miles W. Rich posted:

I had one of those early K-Line heavyweight cars catch fire, but I shut the power off before it melted the car.  However, I had no idea they were ever recalled.  The dealer I bought them from, it was a NYC coach, was present at my house when it happened, and he never told me they were recalled and I didn't get a notice.  I will take them apart and check them out if I run them again.

Miles, What year did this occur?  You would have not received a personal notice as there isn't a way to track a toy.The factory recall was about 1994 for cars manufactured a few years before then.  The notice was in the hobby magazines as well as some newspapers.  Many hobby stores posted flyers or had them available.  The manufacturer did not take it lightly.   John in Lansing, ILL

 

I have had a lot of zinc pest show up in my older trains, but I have never have a zinc penny pest.

I heard of wooden nickels, and plugged coins and slugs.

I just super glue the mess back together the best I can and look for spares.

Someday soon I hope to be able to make my own parts with 3D printing, but the two printers I have now are not up to the task.

Bad News.  After reading this thread, I checked my MTH engines and found that the zinc pest lives in my Rail king Pennsylvania Torpedo 4-6-2 engine.  The tender is severely warped, to the point that two of the four mounting screws sheared off.  My girl-friend (now wife) bought me this engine back in 1997 for my birthday.  I contacted MTH several months ago and found out they had a shell replacement program for this defect.  Unfortunately for me, they no longer had anymore replacement shells.  This is a major bummer.  IMG_3829

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Yikes. Talk a out a Christmas downer. Every year I set up the trains. Every year I buy more trains. This thread is the first one to have me considering running what I have and culling anything that fails. I have no confidence that anyone would develop impose or monitor any minimum standard for metal purity in toy trains. If they did, companies would still cheat and the buyer would have no recourse, especially since..... heck, they are all slowly going out of business anyway.

Steve, my GG1 is the complete opposite. The body is immaculate. 3 of the 4 trucks side were broken off when it arrived. I have since JB welded as best I could and reassembled. The sideframes are a lot worse than the trucks so I may pickup some lionel side frames and fit them. I have a feeling I can get some years out of it and the seller offered to return or a substantial refund, so I kept it. I really do love the engine but probably won't be handing this one down to the kids in 30 years!

Last edited by PRRick

The cars are not falling apart. Lets hear what you have to offer to the so called discussion on solving this problem. Nick

The underbody details are in fact crumbling due to zinc pest. Have seen it on many 18" Lionel Aluminum sets, so much so that the screws have popped out of the frames.

Same issue with the trucks on the 18"  Santa Fe Super Chief aluminum sets. All the side frames are disintegrating. Very sad that Lionel castings made this century have these issues. The only solution would be Lionel remaking the items. Ask anyone with the scale GG-1 where the trucks crumbled and they can no longer run it if they are happy.

Last edited by BobbyD

I think it's tough -- if not near impossible -- to assure quality when your corporate headquarters and factory are half a world apart.  Maerklin had similar issues about 10 years ago and has since scaled back production in China, favoring instead their production facilities in Germany and Hungary.  That's not to say there haven't been some other issues, but overall I think they learned a lesson, especially where die casting is concerned.

It's a shame any way we choose to look at it.  For this reason, there are very few exceptions when it comes to my purchase of newer items.

romiller49,

Not nearly as likely to occur with state-side manufacturing. First, we went through this back in the 30s and 40s. We figured out what the problem was and how to fix it. 2nd, a lot of the metal casting houses in China rely on small mom and pop entities to supply the raw melt materials (with a lot of uncontrolled recycling) to them. They don't QC test anything! In the US, the casters typically have their own certified supply streams, and can get QC testing done as needed. Plus they are more likely to adhere to ISO or other industry standards. I know, the system is far from perfect, and bad stuff will get through, but I strongly suspect the amount will be FAR less.

Chris

LVHR

I just want to say thanks to the guys that have offered photographic images of the effected items. I have the GG1 (JLC 5-Stripe), many of the fantastic Lionel PS series cars and some (PRR "Trail Blazer" and Milwaukee Road "Hiawatha") 18 inch sets and so far, no deterioration has been found.

I'm hoping the problem is isolated, but I suspect it is not.

I don't have much Weaver or Atlas, but I have had crumbling trucks on the Weaver and so far the Atlas cars are fine.

MTH has been a bit of a problem as it was not just zinc issues, but also the warped plastic shells (another thread) but I think I caught the problem in time, at least before any damage was done.

Charlie

Charlie

I have a number of these engines and cars and HAVE NOT experienced any ZINC Pest issues.

However, if the issue is in ONE model it's likely pervasive because the material batching wasn't changed for me.

It is just a matter of time until it appears. The only answer is for manufacturers to list defective and potentially defective engines, cars and specific parts so we can all know it, avoid it or accept it.

I have not seen a compiled list just occasional postings.

Morning Guys:

I bought a "new old stock" Williams 888281 U205H Chessie U33C diesel loco from a guy in the States (I live in Australia) and when it finally arrived, all of the side frames were broken off and had crumbled into small pieces in the Styrofoam inner cradle box. Zinc Pest strikes again!!!!!

Fortunately I was able to purchase new replacement side frames from Williams, and then wait for them to be sent out to me. When I received them, I found a guy who lives close to me to 3D print new plastic side frames, using the new spare die-cast frames as the master - lefts and rights.

I also got him to 3D print the original front and rear pilots, as I suspected they also had the early signs of the "dreaded pest" around the mounting holes.

The guy had a bit of trouble getting the fine detail to show up (wheel bearing box bolts) and the thin extension for the brake shoes tended to sag under the weight of the molten plastic, but he finally got it right after a few tries, and allowing more time between layers, and I think they are pretty good. Painted them in the correct blue color (along with the new pilots) and installed them, and it is hard to tell the difference from 3ft. Remember, this is not scale 3 rail!!!!!

Anyway, each pair of side frames cost me Aus $35.00, and the pilots also cost Aus. $35.00 each, for a grand total of Aus. $105.00 all up (approx $75.00 US).

Just thought I'd share my experience with the dreaded "Zinc Pest" in the one and only affected loco I have, and how I believe I have overcome any long-term issues with possibly poorly cast replacement side frames that may do the same thing in a couple of years time.

Peter.....(Buco Australia)

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After following all of the recent posts, how are the older brass models that were Made in Japan holding up today, compared to all the die cast metal and plastic crap that continues to blow up and fall apart before one's very eyes?

Note: I am aware of excessive foam damage to brass models as a result of the foam not having been replaced in the original boxes over a period of time while they had been stored.

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