Why Lion Chief 2.0?

Hi Scott:

No chaos in my train room. Lionel has these logos on all their packaging, for chaos prevention.

Gary

I think they ought to ditch "LionChief".  Either make all the starter sets LC+ or call it something else.  That would go a long way to avoiding confusion for beginners.  Also, I'll add the now, mandatory-to-the-thread, Lionel bash: whatever they call it, just make sure it works! 

It's very confusing.  I spend a lot of time at open houses trying to explain options to folks.  Dumb decision by Lionel management.  The brand recognition of "Lionel" is really exploited here.  Take away the "Lionel" name and the general public probably would look elsewhere.

-Greg

It's Lionels Neverending pursuit of no standardization.

Its not enough that every Loco takes a different smoke unit.  Some locos have back drivable gears, some do not etc.

There must be a plethora of control systems.

It's no wonder there are quality issues. Every new item is a "one off".

 I remember when semi scale locos had Tmcc just like the scale stuff. It works for MTH.

Why not?

For example, a good, honest hobby store employee will and should know all of the variations a potential customer may encounter when considering a toy train purchase. For me, it is all part of the sale, share your knowledge with a novice, make it fun for both parties. Modern innovations and name changes are the way this 21st century society operates. 

Whether at a hobby shop or train show, it is up to us to spread the word, you may now "beam me up Scotty." 

I'm your average hobbyist and I get confused by all the options. My Dad has his prewar and laughs at all this.

Grampstrains posted:

This is funny.  For months, a lot of folks have complained the LC+ and Legacy can't operate off the same control.  Now they can and still,  some are unhappy.

What is actually funny is that you just proved my point. LC+ and Legacy cannot operate with the same remote.  Lion Chief 2.0 can operate with a TMCC or Legacy remote. Lion Chief plus will not operate with a TMCC or Legacy remote. See it is confusing.

Scott Smith

To me this is what it should of been from the start. I agree Lionchief should go bye bye. Lionchief+ is okay, at least it can be run conventionally, And this is what should be in starter sets. Put Lionchief 2.0 in midway sets, and then some lower end Legacy in your premium sets. ( lower end I mean with out all the fine detail ) So just your beginner sets, would have a different control system. Or even do away with Lionchief+ and go to the Lionchief 2.0 for your beginner to mid range sets, and Legacy Lower end for your premium sets.   

Sidebar: If you go out to purchase a truck or car, you will have a lot of choices. The Ford 150 is just one example. The sales consultant will have to help you out, just like they do at local hobby shops or the big online shops.

Gary

Scott another thought is maybe Lionel is going to phase out Lionchief/+ and go to the Lionchief 2.0. ( which to me is what they should of gone to from the start), they should never of just dropped the control system they had ( except in your more expensive engines ) I like the idea of being able to have TMCC/LegacyL/Legacy all able to run the command engines, of coarse Legacy system can do more than the other two, but you still can run a legacy engine with a TMCC cab1 remote. Yes you won't get all the features, as you would with a legacy remote, but you can run them.  

 

trainroomgary posted:

Sidebar: If you go out to purchase a truck or car, you will have a lot of choices. The Ford 150 is just one example. The sales consultant will have to help you out, just like they do at local hobby shops or the big online shops.

Gary

So I really like the Western Union 4-4-0 set I would like to buy that with the Legacy system. The Disney set with the Mickey ears I would like Legacy there as well. Lionel is not offering models with options like Ford. XYZ set comes with this command system and that’s the way it is. I don’t have an issue with that. I just saying the marketing is confusing.

Did I read the lc2.o info correctly, it comes with no lc remote? I thought lc+ was fine having transformer control or the lc or universal remote to control them. I thought most tmcc/ legacy users just wanted to be able to use their remotes also to control them. I now only use the mth remote to controll all my mth and legacy engines. I do not want to have dozens of remotes to confuse my operators that come over.  I agree with scott lionel realy has confused thier product line. try buying a used lc+ engine in few years. trying to know whats under the hood so to speak  is going to be real confusing when some sellers dont know what they have. mth is by far way ahead of lionel in this area since going to the ps2 platform. with everything being dcs from the starter set to the preimer engines. you know what your getting and its is relatively bullet proof. lionel has no standardization from engine to engine let alone from one line to the next. what is ryan thinking.  drop the starter regular lc crap with no cruies control and make all engines lc+2.0 and make them able to be run with the remote that comes with the engine or the lc+ universal remote or the phone app via bluetooth and also both tmcc remote or legacy remote and be done with it. then in the starter line and semiscale line operators can run everything and not be stuck no matter how they choose to run them. also with the added tmcc/legacy option they wont have to worry about anything when upgrading thier command system. then lastly if they get really serious and want the high end stuff with all the bells and whistles give them scale engines with full legacy. 

ps. after trying to explain my position on this I am almost confused. 😁

Even more confusing in that the original LionChief and LionChief Plus were not Bluetooth.

Eventually we'll all be able to run everything new with BlueTooth through our phones... no rem,otes of any kind needed.

One ring to rule them.

Everything we've been asking for.

Jon

It's called evolution.  The system started out as a way to provide command control inexpensively and control costs in starter sets, and proved so popular that LC+ was created.  The ability to control these locos with Bluetooth and with TMCC/Legacy is a feature, not a bug .  It provides lots of options at low cost.   This system is more reliable than Legacy and TMCC in certain ways, a lot less expensive and uses parts that are not going obsolete because they are 10-20 years old. It allows the sale of starter sets for half the cost of the competition.  It's not that complicated.  None of us like change, but it happens anyway.  This is progress, as will become apparent over the coming years.

LC 2.0 = ((LC+)+some lights + Bluetooth – Remote) X $2

My take: LC+ provided for a relatively low cost entry into the world of remote control and therefore a possible incentive to eventually upgrade to their higher end system. The added features have now doubled the cost.

Landsteiner posted:

This system is more reliable than Legacy and TMCC in certain ways, a lot less expensive and uses parts that are not going obsolete because they are 10-20 years old.

First, I'm NO expert, but those seem like some big assumptions to me.

It’s disappointing that Lionel took the whistle steam effect from the Lionmaster Big Boy. I was greatful to get the 2010 model and still runs great. This to me seems like it might not succeed but I could be wrong.

Jeff T posted:

Landsteiner posted:

This system is more reliable than Legacy and TMCC in certain ways, a lot less expensive and uses parts that are not going obsolete because they are 10-20 years old.

First, I'm NO expert, but those seem like some big assumptions to me.

You dont have to clean the track all the time.    Its only there to pass electricity with LC control or blue tooth! 

My question is.   Do the LC 2.0 engines run on DC?   If not they arent LC at all.   Should be called legacy light.

Jim

carsntrains :

You dont have to clean the track all the time.    Its only there to pass electricity with LC control or blue tooth! 

Jim

You don't have to clean the track all the time with tmcc/legacy either.

The  2 part signal is radiated out of the outside rail and from the ground wiring of the room your layout is in.

Dirty track cause issues with power loss to cc locos. It will do the same to Lionchief.

xrayvizhen posted:

LC 2.0 = ((LC+)+some lights + Bluetooth – Remote) X $2

My take: LC+ provided for a relatively low cost entry into the world of remote control and therefore a possible incentive to eventually upgrade to their higher end system. The added features have now doubled the cost.

They don’t want low cost, they want to price themselves out of business.

That’s how it seems, anyway.

Landsteiner posted:

  It provides lots of options at low cost.   This system is more reliable than Legacy and TMCC in certain ways, a lot less expensive and uses parts that are not going obsolete because they are 10-20 years old. It allows the sale of starter sets for half the cost of the competition.

Is that why the L/C+ 2.0 traditional NKP-style Berkshires are 50 bucks more than their L/C+ counterparts?

Rusty

Rusty Traque posted:

Landsteiner posted:

  It provides lots of options at low cost.   This system is more reliable than Legacy and TMCC in certain ways, a lot less expensive and uses parts that are not going obsolete because they are 10-20 years old. It allows the sale of starter sets for half the cost of the competition.

Is that why the L/C+ 2.0 traditional NKP-style Berkshires are 50 bucks more than their L/C+ counterparts?

Rusty

More options on the LC 2.0    

Jim

Since everyone else seems to be on the soapbox, I'm throwing my lot in as well.

Lionel is trying to convert to DC operation and still retain AC compatibility.

Next the only reason I can see them not offering remotes, is the fact that the LC App is free. Its okaaaaay.... but its FREE. The android version seems to be very prone to lockup and the apple version drops the engine at 20 feet.

Still no reverse and coupler lockouts. These are quintessential to having an operating layout for public interaction like we have with kids run trains.

But lets not forget about the delightfully overpriced LCS! Module prices are crashing. I can pick up one for 140$ new on Amazon. I truly would have been insulted and infuriated if I had pre-ordered it. Even the app is limited to Apple iPads, and is quite buggy still. Pieces dont even match up to make a proper oval.

If Lionel wants me to continue to purchase high-end sets, they need a converter that permits TMCC/CAB2 to BT and visa versa. Something... ANYTHING! I'm not dumping a $1800 control system in the trash because I can do it with my phone.

Finally:
COST! I have had more parents look at a set, look back at me and go "you're insane! That's as much as an XBox/Playstation/Switch!". This typically will get used about two times and then make its way to a thrift store or trash can. I can say without a doubt those game systems wont last but three years before you have to get another.

But lets face it. Kids these days have a short attention span and very little floor space to do anything (Or even time for that matter). They're being shoved this way and that. Soccer, football, afterschool programs, scouts, etc., etc.. They're being thrust into adult situations and decisions at the age of 14. Its not wonder drug use is increasing as a means of an escape.

Going to get off the box before I say something else intangible.

Stone Rhino posted:

Since everyone else seems to be on the soapbox, I'm throwing my lot in as well.

Lionel is trying to convert to DC operation and still retain AC compatibility.

Next the only reason I can see them not offering remotes, is the fact that the LC App is free. Its okaaaaay.... but its FREE. The android version seems to be very prone to lockup and the apple version drops the engine at 20 feet.

Still no reverse and coupler lockouts. These are quintessential to having an operating layout for public interaction like we have with kids run trains.

But lets not forget about the delightfully overpriced LCS! Module prices are crashing. I can pick up one for 140$ new on Amazon. I truly would have been insulted and infuriated if I had pre-ordered it. Even the app is limited to Apple iPads, and is quite buggy still. Pieces dont even match up to make a proper oval.

If Lionel wants me to continue to purchase high-end sets, they need a converter that permits TMCC/CAB2 to BT and visa versa. Something... ANYTHING! I'm not dumping a $1800 control system in the trash because I can do it with my phone.

Finally:
COST! I have had more parents look at a set, look back at me and go "you're insane! That's as much as an XBox/Playstation/Switch!". This typically will get used about two times and then make its way to a thrift store or trash can. I can say without a doubt those game systems wont last but three years before you have to get another.

But lets face it. Kids these days have a short attention span and very little floor space to do anything (Or even time for that matter). They're being shoved this way and that. Soccer, football, afterschool programs, scouts, etc., etc.. They're being thrust into adult situations and decisions at the age of 14. Its not wonder drug use is increasing as a means of an escape.

Going to get off the box before I say something else intangible.

I'm a bit new to this stuff.  But what is a reverse and coupler lockout? 

Jim

scott.smith posted:

I have been reading about the Lion Chief 2.0 and correct me if I am wrong; is it basically TMCC that adds Blue Tooth as an option? I think calling 3 options as Lion Chief is going to confuse the marketplace even more. People seem to confuse ProtoSound and ProtoSound 2 with MTH. This Lion Chief thing is worse. Lionel has Legacy, Lion Chief, Lion Chief Plus and now Lion Chief 2.0. This is going to confuse the market even more. What do you think?
Scott Smith

LionChief in the beginning was a bridge between the tmcc/legacy world and the conventional world.  Plus a way to get controllers in younger operator hands.   Which I think it did very well.   But that’s besides the point.   Lionel has made it public knowledge that the legacy hardware is in the later phase of its life due to components no longer being available to produce it.  It was also publicly noted that the tmcc components are still readily available and is a stable techonogly for the time being and the near forseable future.    So obviously they can’t abandon legacy features we all love and enjoy.  Does it make since to totally reinvent the tmcc handheld to control the extra features that would be left out?   I honestly wouldn’t think so.  Why would we waste capital on another hardware redevelopment.   When we can let the tech companies bare that burden for us and put the money to good use elsewhere.   We already have a successful app that in it’s infancy most likely over delivers more features than most operators use.   It’s an excellent platform to build on and that’s exactly what there doing.   LionChief 2.0 might not be a full replacement for legacy but 3.0 or 4.0 might be just that.   I personally loathe that idea I really love the legacy controller. Unfortunately  it’s the world we live and in and as a dedicated hobbiest and consumer of both Lionel and mth both I understand their need to move in this direction.   It might be confusing right now but the future is much clear before long the app itself will be most likely be standard for all products and the feature set only limited by what you feel like spending on traditional or full on scale models.   Even that gap looks to closing with traditional sizes model getting more and more features.  It certainly could seem confusing for sure.   But I think they are headed in a healthy less confusing direction.   I’m not sure how well accepted  it will be but I guess time will tell.  This hobby hates change but it’s gotta happen.  I hope more stay on the ride than get off altogether.  

My point is/was, and I guess I didn't make it explicit enough, it's 3 different markets. You've got the Legacy/TMCC buyers: Big highly detailed scale engines, wide radius curves and big $$$. You have the entry level: "Toy" trains, conventional transformer control and entry level pricing. Then you have the middle of the road buyer, still operating his PW engines conventionally but has two or maybe even three "semi-scale" LC+ engines at less than $250 each and happy with the remotes. That guy is not going to pay $500+ for an engine, period. (Or at least I won't.) 

Any attempt to raise the price point to accommodate LC+2.0 features that aren't needed or wanted will fail. Lionel already has a winner with LC and LC+. Why are they screwing around with a formula that's already been proven successful? 

Lionel hinted at a bridge between LC/LC+ and TMCC/Legacy, apparently this is it.

The issue that Lionel is addressing is that as nice as it is, TMCC is based on 1960's technology whereas LC/LC+ and bluetooth are more current wireless technologies. This was inevitable.

BOB WALKER posted:

The issue that Lionel is addressing is that as nice as it is, TMCC is based on 1960's technology whereas LC/LC+ and bluetooth are more current wireless technologies. This was inevitable.

I searched that subject last week.  The roots of TMCC actually started in the late 40s!  It was analog of course lol

Jim

I have to take the side of "why not?" The way I see it, LC+2 should make everyone happy. New hobbyists (or cheapskates like me) get more features for the money, and don't need to spend hundreds on a command control system. Long time hobbyists with established layouts and command control get their wish of a reasonably priced locomotive that can be controlled with their command control setups. The question is why didn't Lionel introduce LC+2 from the very beginning instead of Lionchief.

Now for complaints. First of all the name: not only confusing but also uninspired. Second, LC+2 Locomotives should include a remote. If TMCC operators don't want the clutter, leave it in the box, but whenever I have visitors I'd like to walk around with a basket and hand out remotes.

John, you'll just be handing out Universal remotes.   Of course, then you'll have to get them all connected to the right locomotives, that should be fun!

Hiawatha98 posted:

The question is why didn't Lionel introduce LC+2 from the very beginning instead of Lionchief.

DITTO.

All of the technology involved has been available cheaply for years. It's not like they had to wait for Bluetooth 4 to be released before the product could move forward. Bluetooth standards from 15 years ago can easily achieve the same goals being implemented in current LC products.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Lionel hinted at a bridge between LC/LC+ and TMCC/Legacy, apparently this is it.

I agree here, I for one haven't purchased anything LC/+ due to the engines not being able to run on the Lionel remote I use for everything else. Now the option is there for that feature to run on legacy/TMCC and I'm in! 

xrayvizhen posted:

My point is/was, and I guess I didn't make it explicit enough, it's 3 different markets. You've got the Legacy/TMCC buyers: Big highly detailed scale engines, wide radius curves and big $$$. You have the entry level: "Toy" trains, conventional transformer control and entry level pricing. Then you have the middle of the road buyer, still operating his PW engines conventionally but has two or maybe even three "semi-scale" LC+ engines at less than $250 each and happy with the remotes. That guy is not going to pay $500+ for an engine, period. (Or at least I won't.) 

Any attempt to raise the price point to accommodate LC+2.0 features that aren't needed or wanted will fail. Lionel already has a winner with LC and LC+. Why are they screwing around with a formula that's already been proven successful? 

 

I think it's because they are opening up a whole new segment of their own customer base to their LC+ product line.  LC+ is likely a profitable product line as they have used existing tooling with just enough detail and features to satisfy a large number of operators.  (I don't think LC/LC+ has had any new tooling exclusive to the LC/LC+ line)

From the comments around the forum, there were a number of TMCC/Legacy users that liked some of the LC+ offerings, but wouldn't make the purchase because they couldn't control it with their existing control system.  Sometimes the TMCC/Legacy user's refusal to buy LC+ was more out of principal than practicality.  I get that too.  If you invested in the brand's top of the line control system, shouldn't it control any engine that you want to buy? Now there is no excuse, if you like a LC+ 2.0 locomotive (given its known features), you buy it - whether you are a TMCC, Legacy, or Conventional guy. 

The TMCC/Legacy user, who is a proven buyer/brand loyalist, is the target of the LC+2.0.

With that said, as a conventional guy, the LC+ 2.0 is also very attractive to me. I think Lionel is hitting another sweet spot in the market. 

Again, this boils down to the universal remote being truly "universal". A BT to TMCC signaling would be dynamite. Like how we had a cable that lets us use TMCC and Legacy base at the same time. Throw into this the PowerMaster unit? Run conventional trains without modification. Brilliant!

carsntrains posted:

Stone Rhino posted:

I'm a bit new to this stuff.  But what is a reverse and coupler lockout?

Jim,

Lock-out's are like flipping the E-Unit/Reverser switch on a post-war. This keeps the engine in the direction you desire every time you cycle the power. On CAB1/TMCC, this is not possible when in command mode (conventional only). On CAB2/Legacy, this has been explored but not committed (Only in conventional mode does the direction lock work).

LC and LC+ kid friendly? Sure is! But having these light-weight plastic trains that travel 10MPH on a surface? In reverse? Hmmm, this is looking like an accident waiting to happen. Even at a paltry 6V DC, these units will power down the track. I had to install mechanical stops into the LC Thomas set remotes to cap their top speed and restrict reverse speeds. I've seen kids go white knuckle to try and turn them to full speed and reverse.

The LC app lets you cap speed (which is not kid-resistant), but not direction or prohibit coupler use.

Stone Rhino posted:

Again, this boils down to the universal remote being truly "universal". A BT to TMCC signaling would be dynamite. Like how we had a cable that lets us use TMCC and Legacy base at the same time. Throw into this the PowerMaster unit? Run conventional trains without modification. Brilliant!

carsntrains posted:

Stone Rhino posted:

I'm a bit new to this stuff.  But what is a reverse and coupler lockout?

Jim,

Lock-out's are like flipping the E-Unit/Reverser switch on a post-war. This keeps the engine in the direction you desire every time you cycle the power. On CAB1/TMCC, this is not possible when in command mode (conventional only). On CAB2/Legacy, this has been explored but not committed (Only in conventional mode does the direction lock work).

LC and LC+ kid friendly? Sure is! But having these light-weight plastic trains that travel 10MPH on a surface? In reverse? Hmmm, this is looking like an accident waiting to happen. Even at a paltry 6V DC, these units will power down the track. I had to install mechanical stops into the LC Thomas set remotes to cap their top speed and restrict reverse speeds. I've seen kids go white knuckle to try and turn them to full speed and reverse.

The LC app lets you cap speed (which is not kid-resistant), but not direction or prohibit coupler use.

AHHH ok.  Like taking control away from the controller …  

Jim 

Trainlover9943 posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Lionel hinted at a bridge between LC/LC+ and TMCC/Legacy, apparently this is it.

I agree here, I for one haven't purchased anything LC/+ due to the engines not being able to run on the Lionel remote I use for everything else. Now the option is there for that feature to run on legacy/TMCC and I'm in! 

Ditto