FYI: Potential Issue with latest Lionel Legacy E6 Atlantic

Interesting, I have the older Legacy E6, 11224, I'm wondering if I should pop it open to check for that potential problem....

...Another good reason NOT to build locos with the motor leaning forward into the boiler!

Not sure what you mean by 'wobble.'  You might post a video to show us what you mean.  But I would suspect the rubber tires (another pet peeve of mine), or maybe a crooked wheel or axle.  One GOOD thing about these locos, is that they have a "bottom plate."  So assuming the parts are in stock, you could order two new wheels and axles from the Lionel parts dept. to replace the existing ones.  Hopefully that will smooth it out.

Stephen, I bought  the Pennsylvania E6 460 (6-84942) about 4 weeks ago and with about 4 hours of run time no issues.  Mine also bobs up and down a bit on my O72 curve track - I have no straights. 

Can you photo where the shell mounting screws are and tell any other tips to get the shell off?

Took a look at the bottom of my E6 and there is no obvious bottom plate; just a grease port above the gear; checked and there is a small amount of lateral movement (maybe 1/16") in the gear truck but no up and down movement; the other un-driven truck has a little more lateral movement but no up and down movement; there is a little slack between the gear on the axle and whatever drives it.

Regarding removing the shell, found a number of screws under the cab but no obvious ones in the front.  Will wait to see if Stephen can offer some photos or instructions on that.

looks similar to the issue they had with the f40

@RickM46, Sorry for the delay, had to get home from work to snap the pic. You're right, there are a lot of screws, but you only need to remove 4: two under the fire box behind the last driver and two inside the steam chests. Concerning the former, it's the two larger screws that sit on the frame, not the smaller screws that hold the smoke on/off toggle switch; about the latter, they're inside the steam chests in that square void, if you shine a light in there you'll see them. Remove those four and then the it just lifts out. There should be enough slack with the wires to clear the shell and lay it down. Attached pic with the screws indicated.

Regarding the "wobble", it is a slight up and down bobbing motion. I did try to film a video last night but it's not that obvious on camera. There doesn't seem to be much play with the wheels/frame, in either direction, so I don't think the cause is a mechanical issue. If I lay my fingers on the top as it runs I can feel the motion, but if I then take my other hand and apply some light pressure to say the smoke stack, then the wobbling virtually vanishes. I think I recall reading similar comments to the previous releases, in that this slight up/down movement isn't inherent to this release, but I haven't had a chance yet to search the forum.

Hi Stephen,  A fellow forum member had an Atlantic at our club layout with a bad wobble, he changed out traction tires and it now runs very smoothly. That may also be your issue.

RickM46 posted:

Took a look at the bottom of my E6 and there is no obvious bottom plate; just a grease port above the gear;

Your photos suggest that you're right.  However, the exploded photos of 6-84943 on the Lionel parts website suggest it's the same as mine (look at part #24):

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...1C-87CB-085D74602447

These Legacy 4-4-2 Atlantics are curious beasts.  The first Legacy version, 6-11117 Santa Fe was built like yours (and like the earlier conventional Atlantics of the mid-2000s.)  Captive axles, no bottom plate.  Mine is the 6-11225.  It has a split chassis as depicted in the link above, and you can easily remove the wheels and axles, which is my preferred design.  I guess it depends on which Chinese contractor du jour gives Lionel the low bid.  20 years from now the replacement parts situation is gonna be fun!!

I would get some new traction tires and see if that helps.  I'll be following this thread for further developments.

Wow!!  Am impressed with the info from Ted S, Stephen, and Dave - thanks a bunch guys - it's this stuff that makes this forum great.  Am going to lift the shell off tonight and check the wiring.  Will status back after that.

Is that a crack next to the "C" clip?

Joe, you've got eagle eyes; but, no it is a strand of my 72 year old hair; not much left; probably should pick it up and tape it back.

Mine is on it's way back to Lionel for a really loud growling noise and for a gallop so back it'll climb out of the rails at any normal running speed.  And mine doesn't go up and down, it's at an angle.  I messed with traction tires and it didn't help.  Neither did holding the front down.  Otherwise I liked the little engine.

Hats off to Stephen; shell came off easily; just got done examining the wires in my E6.  There was no damage to the wires above the flywheel but since I was in there, I taped them to the top of the shell as Stephen did.  Also noticed that there were some wires snug on both sides of the motor that were quite close to the flanges of the front wheels.  Taped those to the side of the motor to keep them away from the flanges.  Noticed that pesky capacitor that was missing from my Big Boy that made it run smoother - it was included on the E6.  Lastly, in the last pic, I saw that the boiler shell was made in Korea.  Tested the engine and all is well. 

You can add weight right behind the boiler face piece, which if like the previous version comes off with one screw right at the bottom.  I did that on mine and not only improved the wobble but greatly improved its pulling capability.

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...-from-bando-markings

Jeff, good idea on  the weights!  How many of those rectangles in the pic did you add? How did you make them??

Per Jeff: "Wrapped in black masking tape and hot glued right on the back of the newly installed boiler front.  Couldn't get a great pic, but here's a shot:"

Hi Rick. They are pine car strip weights, available at hobby shops, Michael's  and of course Amazon.  Lead tape would be good too, perhaps even better.

As to how many, they really fit in there well and I just stacked as many as I could fit.

It always seems like just a little more weight would be perfect but filling that space really did have an affect.  I am not really sure why that is since even though the engine is back heavy, it's the rear drivers that have the traction tires, so one might think it's actually better to leave it rear heavy.  Idk.  

Even if no improvement in pulling power, for me just reducing that bobbing was key. I didn't care for that.  It ruined the illusion for me. 

My mth Atlantic is a wobbler too.  It seems that having just two rows of closely spaced drivers makes it a configuration that easily shows any front-back imbalance.

Good luck! 

Thanks Jeff!  Will take a look at the area on the back of the boiler front on my E6 (6-84942) and see how much room there is; Amazon definitely has the pine car strip weights as does Hobby Lobby; I'm not nuts about the bobbing either; I am running it on O72 but wonder how it would run on tighter O36 - maybe more bobbing?  To figure out a good weight, I guess you could tape enough over the pilot and see the effect.

sinclair posted:

Mine is on it's way back to Lionel for a really loud growling noise and for a gallop so back it'll climb out of the rails at any normal running speed.  And mine doesn't go up and down, it's at an angle.  I messed with traction tires and it didn't help.  Neither did holding the front down.  Otherwise I liked the little engine.

Sinclair, keep us up on the issue!

Slugger posted:. However, now my headlight won't light....

If you've been running your model, you might want to take a peak underneath to make sure that no wires are rubbing against the flywheel.

On a related note, has anyone successfully dealt with these units wobbling? I imagine adding some weight to the front of shell would reduce that.

Stephen

Stephen, any success with the headlight?  I see on the parts diagram that it looks like the headlight is part of the boiler front:  https://www.lionelsupport.com/...1C-87CB-085D74602447

@pennsy484: Thanks for that idea! I will definitely have to try that.

@RickM46: I didn't have much free time last night to investigate the head light further. I'm thinking perhaps that damaged wire is actually broken and that's the source of my headlight problem.

RickM46 posted:

There was no damage to the wires above the flywheel but since I was in there, I taped them to the top of the shell as Stephen did.  Also noticed that there were some wires snug on both sides of the motor that were quite close to the flanges of the front wheels.  Taped those to the side of the motor to keep them away from the flanges.  Noticed that pesky capacitor that was missing from my Big Boy that made it run smoother - it was included on the E6.  Lastly, in the last pic, I saw that the boiler shell was made in Korea.  Tested the engine and all is well.

Do yourself and anyone else that has to go inside that shell and invest in some Kapton tape!  Black electrical tape quickly turns into a gooey mess!  I detest working on anything that has been slathered in black tape!

GRJ, now that you mention it, it does get messy; went on Amazon and saw many brands; do you have a favorite?

Actually, most any of them will do, I've been using some generic Polyimide Film Tape that I bought on Amazon three or four years ago.  Before that, I was using some of the high priced spread left over from when I worked in aerospace.  I haven't noticed any difference in the performance of the big buck stuff and the Amazon stuff in my usage.  Eleven bucks gets you four sizes of 36 yard rolls, probably enough for many years.

Hxtape Multi Size Choices High Temperature Kapton Tape,Polyimide Film Tape for Masking,3D Printing,Electric Task,Soldering,1/4 inch,1/2 inch,3/4 inch,1 inch, 36yds/roll, Pack of 4

Ted S posted:

RickM46 posted:

Took a look at the bottom of my E6 and there is no obvious bottom plate; just a grease port above the gear;

Your photos suggest that you're right.  However, the exploded photos of 6-84943 on the Lionel parts website suggest it's the same as mine (look at part #24):

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...1C-87CB-085D74602447

These Legacy 4-4-2 Atlantics are curious beasts.  The first Legacy version, 6-11117 Santa Fe was built like yours (and like the earlier conventional Atlantics of the mid-2000s.)  Captive axles, no bottom plate.  Mine is the 6-11225.  It has a split chassis as depicted in the link above, and you can easily remove the wheels and axles, which is my preferred design.  I guess it depends on which Chinese contractor du jour gives Lionel the low bid.  20 years from now the replacement parts situation is gonna be fun!!

I would get some new traction tires and see if that helps.  I'll be following this thread for further developments.

The 6-11117 Santa Fe is a split chassis. The bottom plate with brakes is prone to breakage

also, I believe the wheel bearings are not exactly square. Check; if reming wheel sets

Thanks GRJ; just ordered some from Amazon and will replace the black stuff on the E6; didn't consider what the heat would do and loose tape would get onto the flywheel and everything else.

Just did  a little coarse experiment on the bobbing issue; the roof of the cab easily shows movement; taped a Craftsman 1/2" drive extension above the cow catcher - don't have anything to weigh it with - that produced no significant change.  Then, tried a 1 1/8" socket easily 3 times the weight of the extension - that reduced the bobbing to 0 - only noticeable if you were looking for it.  Seemed like the motor was laboring a bit though.

Next, removed all weight; added 10" lengths of straight track to the circular loop to create an oval and saw that the bobbing on the straight track was almost nil.  So, adding the right amount of weight does have an effect on curve track; a decision between stopping the movement and labor on the motor.

Thanks for the clarification Shawn!  I guess someone needs to tell Lionel that their parts website is wrong for both 6-84934 and 6-11117.

Thanks for the tip, @gunrunnerjohn. I too didn't consider the heat.

@RickM46: Nice little experiment there. I'd imagine that the ideal weight would be between those two extremes. Thanks for confirming the placement suggested by Pennsy484. Glad to hear that it isn't indeed a mechanical issue and it's solved fairly easily -- that wobble is a bit jarring...

After working an a number of locomotives with black tape in them, I finally tossed that stuff in the back room toolbox, it will never again darken my trains!

After some thought (a few drinks; nap) about adding weight to the E6 to deal with the bobbing, I have decided to not add weight to it unless there is a pulling or switch track or climbing issue up a ramp or O36 curves (I did order these just in case https://www.amazon.com/TourGear-Hireko-FlexTee-Tungsten-Weights/dp/B01EUYPF8I/ref=sr_1_28?ie=UTF8&qid=1549028545&sr=8-28&keywords=lead+tape).

Jeff mentioned that his MTH with 2 axle drivers does the same; I am thinking that a bit more engineering would have to been done with balance - too late for the E6. 

In spite of the bobbing, I still like this little guy and like how it makes its way around the O72 oval - no derailing yet; I like the whistle - my top criteria for buying a steamer.

Years ago in Model Railroader magazine there was an article on getting a brass E-6 to run well. Of course HO has the problem of very little weight compared to O but the point was that the engine should balance at the center point of the drivers for optimal performance. Doubt this is something Lionel has looked at and I don't have an E-6 to check but it might be an idea for a place to begin trying to weight the loco.

I think most of the Atlantic's tend to bob without some careful tuning,  I've owned a few of the Lionel models, and I don't remember any of them that didn't have some bobbing as they ran.  I have a Weaver that I upgraded to TMCC, it's pretty good, but there is a hint of bobbing with it.

This is not really surprising, there are only four drivers actually supporting the weight, any slight weight shift when you're pulling a load will shift the balance.

Sunset Thirdrail with an ERR upgrade.   May be a bit cab heavy, IMO. Mike CT.  

As Don Padova quoted Chruchill "In the course of my life I have had to eat my words, and I must confess it was a wholesome diet"..........Winston Churchill.

While removing the shell off my E6 to remove the black tape, I saw a nice rectangular box cavity behind the boiler front and forward of the Bluetooth board to add weights - see pic.  With its depth ~7/16 and headroom above it of ~7/16, one could place a bit of weight there.  Love eating my words!

GRJ, is the Kapton tape conductive??

Measured the box and it is 1 1/16 wide and 7/8 from front to back.

RickM46 posted:

 

GRJ, is the Kapton tape conductive??

 

Obvious I'm not GRJ, however to answer your question. Kaptop tape is not conductive. It's actually the type of tape used when taping something onto or near electronics / PCBs.

I hope it's not conductive!  We used it in quantity in aerospace, and it sure would have been a MAJOR issue if it were conductive where it was used!

The answer is no, it's not conductive, it's actually a very good insulator.

Here's your added weight, just figure how many will fit.

Dave and GRJ, thanks for the info!  GRJ, I was thinking 50 cal ammo or some 20mm cannon.

pennsy484 posted:

Hi Rick. They are pine car strip weights, available at hobby shops, Michael's  and of course Amazon.  Lead tape would be good too, perhaps even better.

As to how many, they really fit in there well and I just stacked as many as I could fit.

It always seems like just a little more weight would be perfect but filling that space really did have an affect.  I am not really sure why that is since even though the engine is back heavy, it's the rear drivers that have the traction tires, so one might think it's actually better to leave it rear heavy.  Idk.  

Even if no improvement in pulling power, for me just reducing that bobbing was key. I didn't care for that.  It ruined the illusion for me. 

My mth Atlantic is a wobbler too.  It seems that having just two rows of closely spaced drivers makes it a configuration that easily shows any front-back imbalance.

Good luck! 

I seem to remember reading that same thing about the full scale PRR E6 as well. Said moved around a lot, although I think that was more sway side to side but still, short wheelbase = wild ride!