MrMuffin'sTrains announces a Custom Run Lionel Legacy NYC J3a Hudson

Norton posted:

John Rowlen posted:

One last thought:  I have not opened my Hudson #5415 engine, but did open my Santa Fe Northern #3759 when the DOG BONE linkage came out of the U-joint cups and the engine would not go forward.  It would run smoothly in reverse, but not forward. 

Other owners of the ATSF Northern engine put a packing on either end of the Dog Bone to keep it centered in the U-joint cups.  Perhaps the clicking is the Dog Bone pins clicking inside the U-joint cup as it rounds the pins and eventually fails to turn.  The clicking pins would interrupt the smooth rotation of the drive train, causing the stuttering.  In reverse, the dog Bone is pushed back into the U-joint cup and runs smoothly.

I contacted Lionel about the previous Santa Fe Northern, to tell them about the "Dog Bone" linkage being too short to fit properly between the U-joint cups. I don't believe the newest Santa Fe Northern engines have arrived yet.  Only some previous Northern engines had this problem. 

The "Dog Bone" linkage may be the problem.  If it is, it will wear until the pins round and no longer mate with the U-joint cup, ending forward movement.

I am not a technician. This is just one of my experiences.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Dog bones are a buck apiece. Rather than stuff the ends just loosen the allen screw that holds the flywheel to the motor and move it closer to the gearbox or order a longer dogbone. The TMCC Hudsons use dogbone drives and don't have this issue as do most MTH engines.

You guys are making mountains out of molehills. 

Pete

The mountain is $1,349. and horrible QC. Out of the 11 steamers i have. Lionel, K Line, MTH, Sunnset (3rd rail) This is the only one with the with these symptoms. Buy a new car that needs to be in the shop before you can drive it off the lot? Lemon. It happens. Can i fix myself Absolutely. I work on Television broadcast cameras worth over 400k. these toys are child’s play. Do i need this after paying 1,300 NO. 

The end

Do you lose anything by lubricating it as you would with any new locomotive and running it with a consist for an hour or so?  Sometimes they need to break in.  Respectfully, I get the sense that there is a contingent of folks who immediately hit the panic button and head to the internet to complain.  I agree you should not have to open a new loco but running it might solve the issues.  Also, running a loco on rollers is not a reliable indicator for what it does on an actual layout.

Ray, I did lube it. Problem persists. On the track, reverse is perfect. forward there is stuttering and the grinding noise. The wobble is seen visually on the rollers because it is vertical movement only.  On the track it is seems less because the same vertical movement is stretched out across a horizontal plane creating more of a sign wave. To the eye of course it will seem diminished on the track vs rollers.

The fact it operates smoothly in reverse vs forward is an indication of mechanical problem. This will not be rectified by “running in”. Any way I am waiting to hear back from Lionel. 

Yesterday I received my 2015 New MTH J1 Pacemaker fright set. 1-J1a Hudson ps3, 5 premier flatcars with 2 Pacemaker trailers  per car and premier NYC caboose. For just under $1,200 shipped. 

The engine runs like a Rolex. No wobble No noise. Crawls at 1 forward and reverse. New! factory lubed no “run in” smooth!!!! 

I have also received Lionel engines like this as well. Smooth running out of the box NO “run in” required.

Just to clarify my particular situation with this custom run J3. I came here not in a panic but to share my situation and to see what others have experienced with this 2019 lionel legacy engine. Some run great some have issues. I want to thank everyone for taking the time and sharing there thoughts and experiences in diagnosing possible causes.  

After all this is what is great about this forum. 

Mine arrived.  Beat me home for Asia.  I am opening it for Christmas and excited to do so.  In all my dealings with Steve (Mr. Muffin), if there is a problem, he will fix it.

John

jbmccormick posted:

Mine arrived.  Beat me home for Asia.  I am opening it for Christmas and excited to do so.  In all my dealings with Steve (Mr. Muffin), if there is a problem, he will fix it.

John

Agreed. Mr Muffins has been great and i have had discussions with Jeff. Unfortunately they are out of stock for an exchange.  This particular engine i received passed Lionel QC. I believe the responsibility falls on Lionel to correct.

Hello all,

I received my Hudson this morning , it seems to me the issue is simple. it needs to be broken in a bit ,i placed it on stationary rollers and let it air out . Then  i added grease to the worm gearbox, in my case it solved everything. I do not recommend opening up the engine like i did, it will void your warranty. Just use a syringe and shoot grease into the fill hole located on the underside of the chassis. 

I WILL POST VIDEO'S SHORTLY 

Thanks , Alex

Alex, was there any grease in the gear box at all when you opened her up?

Alex M posted:

Hello all,

I received my Hudson this morning , it seems to me the issue is simple. it needs to be broken in a bit ,i placed it on stationary rollers and let it air out . Then  i added grease to the worm gearbox, in my case it solved everything. I do not recommend opening up the engine like i did, it will void your warranty. Just use a syringe and shoot grease into the fill hole located on the underside of the chassis. 

I WILL POST VIDEO'S SHORTLY 

Thanks , Alex

 

 

 

Alex, what about mixing STP, just a little with the grease before lubing the gear box? I know that sounds crazy but STP is really slick stuff and may help in the break in.

Alex, I’ve had situations where I had to put very thin shims under the gearbox cover to correct the same problem. That eliminated the binding when tightening down the cover screws. Do not place the shim over the bearings. 

Great analysis Alex. 

FWIW if you want to break in mechanical parts you really don't want something that reduces friction but just the opposite. Break in oils have minimal friction reducers. You want the rough surfaces to wear smooth.

If you have rollers, do what Alex did and run it hard before adding more lubricant.

Pete

Great video, Alex, thank you.  Mine won't shudder going really slow, but if I open it up a bit, it will.  Fine in reverse.  I also applied Red N Tacky shortly after I got it.  I put something under the rear truck and lifted the front up so the rollers were still touching and wound it up for about a minute or so and got no shudder...which I guess was similar to you lightening the downward  force on it in the video where you didn't get the shudder either.  But if its own weight is on it, shudder.  Hopefully, like you and Dave suggested, it just needs a long run in.  Thanks again for posting.  It is a beautiful engine.

Great video Alex and thank you! seems like you nailed it. After watching your video i remember finding this similar problem on an ho IHC engine. removing the worm gear cover did the trick. I guess my memory is failling me. 

Thank you for opening it up and showing us the issue. 

superwarp1 posted:

Alex, was there any grease in the gear box at all when you opened her up?

Yes there was grease that Lionel had put in , I put in a bit more. 

Alex 

Excellent help Alex, eases my mind a bit!  My 5452 is on its way.  However, I do have some questions that maybe you or some of the fellas can answer:

1. When you mention the gearbox cover, is that only accessible by taking the boiler off as is shown in your video?  Or, is there a cover on the underside that also contains the grease screw?  I know the drivers on my Big Boy have covers over the gear box on the underside held in place by 4 screws allowing easy removal of the cover.

2. I plan on loading up the gearbox with a syringe of RednTacky and squeezing in as much as it will take; will overfill cause a problem?

feet posted:

Alex M posted:

Hello all,

I received my Hudson this morning , it seems to me the issue is simple. it needs to be broken in a bit ,i placed it on stationary rollers and let it air out . Then  i added grease to the worm gearbox, in my case it solved everything. I do not recommend opening up the engine like i did, it will void your warranty. Just use a syringe and shoot grease into the fill hole located on the underside of the chassis. 

I WILL POST VIDEO'S SHORTLY 

Thanks , Alex

 

 

 

Alex, what about mixing STP, just a little with the grease before lubing the gear box? I know that sounds crazy but STP is really slick stuff and may help in the break in.

I'm not to sure about that, maybe another forum member can chime in on this 

Alex

romiller49 posted:

Alex, I’ve had situations where I had to put very thin shims under the gearbox cover to correct the same problem. That eliminated the binding when tightening down the cover screws. Do not place the shim over the bearings. 

Agreed , excellent idea 

Alex

Norton posted:

Great analysis Alex. 

FWIW if you want to break in mechanical parts you really don't want something that reduces friction but just the opposite. Break in oils have minimal friction reducers. You want the rough surfaces to wear smooth.

If you have rollers, do what Alex did and run it hard before adding more lubricant.

Pete

Hi Pete, 

Thanks my friend ! 

I'll have to watch this tomorrow when I come home from work. Busy tonight and will be heading to bed soon. Busy day.

Larry Mullen posted:

Great video, Alex, thank you.  Mine won't shudder going really slow, but if I open it up a bit, it will.  Fine in reverse.  I also applied Red N Tacky shortly after I got it.  I put something under the rear truck and lifted the front up so the rollers were still touching and wound it up for about a minute or so and got no shudder...which I guess was similar to you lightening the downward  force on it in the video where you didn't get the shudder either.  But if its own weight is on it, shudder.  Hopefully, like you and Dave suggested, it just needs a long run in.  Thanks again for posting.  It is a beautiful engine.

Yes Larry it really is a beautiful engine, let it run for a while and it should be fine 

Alex

SLQ32 posted:

Great video Alex and thank you! seems like you nailed it. After watching your video i remember finding this similar problem on an ho IHC engine. removing the worm gear cover did the trick. I guess my memory is failling me. 

Thank you for opening it up and showing us the issue. 

 

My pleasure 

Alex

RickM46 posted:

Excellent help Alex, eases my mind a bit!  My 5452 is on its way.  However, I do have some questions that maybe you or some of the fellas can answer:

1. When you mention the gearbox cover, is that only accessible by taking the boiler off as is shown in your video?  Or, is there a cover on the underside that also contains the grease screw?  I know the drivers on my Big Boy have covers over the gear box on the underside held in place by 4 screws allowing easy removal of the cover.

2. I plan on loading up the gearbox with a syringe of RednTacky and squeezing in as much as it will take; will overfill cause a problem?

I mentioned a worm gear cover but this was on an HO scale IHC 4-8-4 i repaired in 2001 Not sure if this is what you are referring to. It had the exact same symptoms. I totally forget about it. 

Regarding the covers; just asking if you turn the loco up side down and look at the area of the middle driver, is there a cover there that can be removed?

RickM46 posted:

Regarding the covers; just asking if you turn the loco up side down and look at the area of the middle driver, is there a cover there that can be removed?

  There’s a small screw between the center drivers it’s marked grease. Just unscrew it and push grease in it with a syringe. 

Alex 

Hey Alex

Thanks for taking a look at this and the great video. Nice to know its something that easy to correct with some lubrication and some running

I really appreciate Alex opening up his loco and posting the videos.  Very informative! 

I really wish Lionel AND MTH would redesign their steam loco chassis' to use a "KTM-style" gearbox separate from the frame, that clamps around the worm wheel.  This would virtually guarantee a perfect mesh.  And even if there was a problem, you could just replace the gearbox.  Every other scale uses a separate gearbox.  As usual doing the right thing costs a bit more, but it's worth it in the long run!

EDIT:  Although you can't see it too clearly in Lionel's online parts photos, from Alex's previous posts it appears that the Vision Line Niagara has a separate gearbox.  I wish they would have made the J3a this way.  Worth every penny of the extra cost IMO.

Alex M posted:

......it seems to me the issue is simple. it needs to be broken in a bit.

Alex M posted:

.....let it run for a while and it should be fine  

Just pretend it has a Pullmor motor, and do what you do with a Pullmor.    Break 'em in to smooth 'em out. 

The more things change, the more things stay the same.  

So in other words, run the loco for a while and don't press the panic button, head to the web and complain?

;-)

Glad that is all it is.

For me, No panic. Headed to this forum to see who else had this because i never saw this problem from a Lionel engine before. And to all those who joined the discussion with analysis, Thank you. This is the beauty of the community here. 

;-)

To be clear I am not singling you out.  I have noticed a tendency on the forum, any time there is a issue with a product, for people to come out of the proverbial woodwork and b#$tch endlessly about product quality, while also announcing that they have made another 27 preorders.  I guess these folks have too much time on their hands or are gluttons for punishment.  Or perhaps it is an over reaction.

In your case I am happy a knowledgeable tech chimed in to resolve the issue.  

Best of luck with the new Hudson and happy thanksgiving.

The forum is always a good place to check for a solution but also the manufacturer needs to be contacted as well.  If they are in the loop it helps everyone.

And complaining about others complaining is constructive?  Much less off topic. 

People join to share experiences and look for answers for problems. As a Television broadcast engineer I have helped and have been helped on many occasions in an emergency situation within 1 hour of a live sporting event by the society of broadcast engineers. NFL NBC Sports Fox Sports ESPN ect. so folks can sit back and enjoy a sunday game. We also “*****” about products from Ross, Sony, Ikagami GrassVally Fujinon Cannon ect ect. I find nothing wrong with anyone looking for answers or “*****ing” about a product. In fact There has been several changes and re engineering because of it.  This is one of the purposes of online forums. 

SLQ32 posted:

And complaining about others complaining is constructive?  Much less off topic. 

People join to share experiences and look for answers for problems. As a Television broadcast engineer I have helped and have been helped on many occasions in an emergency situation within 1 hour of a live sporting event by the society of broadcast engineers. NFL NBC Sports Fox Sports ESPN ect. so folks can sit back and enjoy a sunday game. We also “*****” about products from Ross, Sony, Ikagami GrassVally Fujinon Cannon ect ect. I find nothing wrong with anyone looking for answers or “*****ing” about a product. In fact There has been several changes and re engineering because of it.  This is one of the purposes of online forums. 

Ok @SLQ32 now you peaked my interest?  Who do you work for?  I am in broadcasting also.  You can an email me at my profile to keep it off board.

SLQ32 posted:

And complaining about others complaining is constructive?  Much less off topic. 

People join to share experiences and look for answers for problems. As a Television broadcast engineer I have helped and have been helped on many occasions in an emergency situation within 1 hour of a live sporting event by the society of broadcast engineers. NFL NBC Sports Fox Sports ESPN ect. so folks can sit back and enjoy a sunday game. We also “*****” about products from Ross, Sony, Ikagami GrassVally Fujinon Cannon ect ect. I find nothing wrong with anyone looking for answers or “*****ing” about a product. In fact There has been several changes and re engineering because of it.  This is one of the purposes of online forums. 

SLQ32....are you going to try what Alex suggested? or does your locomotive still need to be returned? ......I’d just like to know if I decide to purchase one of these locomotives, that you’ve resolved the issue with yours....

and thank you Alex, for taking the time to void your warranty....😊

Pat

Currently I am NY State Media services. Prior i was at Time Warner Sports and did contract work as E2 and Shading with several sports venues. 

SLQ32 posted:

Currently I am NY State Media services. Prior i was at Time Warner Sports and did contract work as E2 and Shading with several sports venues. 

NEP Group here.

Pat, I thank Alex for showing it’s not really  a problem like i had thought and a simple run in period is all that’s needed. I am not going to open it and void any warranty. I am waiting to here back from Lionel. 

Pat, I have the 5452 on the way; I am going to: check to make sure the axles of the tender spin freely; out of the box, run the engine a bit to see if it shudders; in any case, force RednTacky into the grease port and run it hoping it will get smooth.  AND, last but not least, consider sending the loco to you for adjustment - how do you like them apples?

RickM46 posted:

Pat, I have the 5452 on the way; I am going to: check to make sure the axles of the tender spin freely; out of the box, run the engine a bit to see if it shudders; in any case, force RednTacky into the grease port and run it hoping it will get smooth.  AND, last but not least, consider sending the loco to you for adjustment - how do you like them apples?

Not a problem Rick, always good to see your smiling face romping about the forum!..☺️...IF I were to get one, my first move would be to throw that Cannon motor in the trash can...she’d have a Pittman before the evening! ..I’d void the warranty before before the brown truck left the driveway!....😜........Pat

Alex M posted:

Hello all,

I received my Hudson this morning , it seems to me the issue is simple. it needs to be broken in a bit ,i placed it on stationary rollers and let it air out . Then  i added grease to the worm gearbox, in my case it solved everything. I do not recommend opening up the engine like i did, it will void your warranty. Just use a syringe and shoot grease into the fill hole located on the underside of the chassis. 

I WILL POST VIDEO'S SHORTLY 

Thanks , Alex

 

 

 

Alex, great informative video as always. I am hoping I have time Thursday morning to pop down some straight track on the rug to put a little running in on mine before heading to my sister's for Thanksgiving day festivities. I know that sleep will be involved later on lol. 

Thanks once again for educating me. I think I will have to pick up some of that grease you mentioned in the video as well. I know my 1990's Mohawk needs some grease and oil since it has been in the box for some time before I get that out to run again.