Who would like to see Bluetooth in all O gauge locomotives?

carsntrains posted:

TexasSP posted:

Wifi Devices for operating Model Trains:

MTH WIU

MTH DCS Explorer

Lionel LCS Wifi Module

Digitrax Loconet Wifi Device

Wifi integration Through JMRI Software

MRC Wifi Module

Locofi

ESU Wifi DCC System

Piko Wifi DCC System

and the list goes on and on.  Bluetooth is only used by 3 companies.  Bachmann (HO only using Bluerail), Bluerail (which has zero offering for O gauge with smoke and sound as we all are used to), and Lionel (which offers no upgrade path)

Take away everything that isnt O gauge : )

Jim

Wether they are o gauge or not really doesn't matter. Most of those units use DCC as control system. If everyone would put DCC decoders in there engines of any gauge, you can pick and choose between any of those systems listed above to run your engines of any gauge. Bluetooth & WiFi do the simple job of moving data, the control system (TMCC, DCS, LEGACY, DCC, LC) is where the real magic lies.

If I take any MTH PS3 engine and flip the DCS switch to DCC all of the above systems that use DCC can effectively apply to o gauge.

If one company wanted to they could build a Bluetooth DCC encoder and you could use Bluetooth to send DCC commands to engines.

Why, O Gauge can run on DCC, Can be upgraded to DCC, all O 2 Rail in command is DCC, DCC is fully backwards compatible, all MTH PS3 Locos can run on DCC

3 Rail O is the outlier in the rest of model railroading in more ways than one.

I think some people are hearing what they want to hear, overreacting to what they are hearing, oversimplifying, overgeneralizing and/or just not really grasping the situation or what is being said.

Of course Bluetooth and other new technologies need to be explored and implemented. But the idea that anyone at Lionel would say don't buy the ZW or that AC power is going to be completely eliminated from new Lionel offerings is absolutely ridiculous. Also obvious is that Lionel is doing a good job in adding new technologies without obsoleting any of their older Technologies and wouldn't all of a sudden decide to make all the developed technology obsolete.

My guess is that if I called Lionel and said hey I am only ever going to run starter sets and I'm really never going to run anything AC, maybe, maybe, some person at Lionel might suggest that I don't buy a $800 ZW, and they would be mortified if they thought I as a beginner set only runner was going to go trolling on a forum and somehow suggest that Lionel is completely shifting gears to DC only and poke fun at the long time users of AC, TMCC, Legacy, Visionline, etc.

OGR has been relatively troll free for the past year or so, I hope we don't have a new Vox. 

carsntrains posted:

MJCAT posted:

carsntrains posted:

H1000 posted:

So what we've learned so far is that Bluetooth works great for smaller operators that are not serious about layout control. (Doesn't matter because many consumers may not be concerned about this)

Current Bluetooth specs only allow a maximum of 7 simultaneous connections at one time (you can pair as many as you want, but only connect to 7 of the paired devices at one time).

Systems using Bluetooth control still have yet to overcome the Master / Slave operating relationship (apparently the BlueRail app is able to overcome this but no details were given as to how).

Even though we currently have two systems available that use Bluetooth (LC & BlueRail) their apps and engines are not compatible with one another.

Reported user experiences with Bluetooth range (at least when using the LC locomotives) is workable for 10 to 20 feet (possibly more without any scenery obstructions but according to specs its max is 33 feet in optimal conditions).

TMCC is now available on the newest LC offerings but no bridge device exists yet for the last six years of LC engines to allow operation of these older engines with a Legacy or TMCC system.

While Bluerail does have an app that can control more than one engine at a time, its system is not widely available in O gauge and only by removing existing electronics and installing a BlueRail board. 

LC also has an app but it is limited to controlling one engine at a time. LC does have a universal remote available that controls up to three engines but it lacks any future expansion capabilities for more engines, additional controls, or layout control unless those are added using cryptic multiple button combinations that are not documented yet.

 

With Bluetooth 5.0, devices can use data transfer speeds of up to 2 Mbps, which is double what Bluetooth 4.2 supports. Devices can also communicate over distances of up to 800 feet (or 240 meters), which is four times the 200 feet (or 60 meters) allowed by Bluetooth 4.2. However, walls and other obstacles will weaken the signal, as they do with Wi-Fi. All we need it for Lionel to step it up!  Although the FCC will limit them due to interference rules.

My Kindle Fire HD 10 uses 4.0.  But our Samsung Galaxy 8 uses 5.0.  I cant find any information on what Bluetooth the new LC+2.0 will use... 

Looks like its a Bluetooth kind of world!   In my train room I have Bluetooth trains, Bluetooth speakers, Bluetooth outlets, Bluetooth earbuds.    And manual turnouts!!! LOL     AHAHAHAHAHAH

Jim

Wifi and bluetooth utilize a  similar frequency range, so obstructions would affect them in the same way, except that the output power of most wifi devices are MUCH higher than that of most BT devices.  (By a magnitude of 10x for devices to 1000x the power output in the case of routers)  This is why my laptop is able to see wifi  routers for a handful of my neighbors, despite many obstructions in between and the fact that they are hundreds of feet away from me. Even on a phone,  the wifi power transmitted is in the range of .1 watts, but BT is in the range of .008 watts.

Also, with wifi, you are better able to utilize web based technology, instead of mobile app device dependent technology.  Web based technology will work on any device. 

 

 

Also you have to buy a WIU to use it with DCC.   I dont know of another available system for model trains that uses WIFI.  

Jim

S9 has 5 also

For DCC?  Wifi is simple, and available on most dcc systems.  For my NCE, I simply need the USB interface  ($40-$50) .  The JMRI software is free, as is the throttle app for the phone.  And it works with all of my engines that run under my current control system.  Not just those "equipped" with a specific communication device.

And with this setup, I can also start to program my own software automation for control. And I'm using a protocol standard that a vast majority in model railroading are using.  I'm not tied to a specific vendor for my control system, which is nice because I have a lot of options with my control system that I wouldnt have with proprietary control systems.  

pennsy484 posted:

I think some people are hearing what they want to hear, overreacting to what they are hearing, oversimplifying, overgernalizing and/or just not really grasping the situation or what is being said.

Of course Bluetooth and other new technologies need to be explored and implemented. But the idea that anyone at Lionel would say don't buy the ZW or that AC power is going to be completely eliminated from new Lionel offerings is absolutely ridiculous. Also obvious is that Lionel is doing a good job in adding new technologies without obsolete eating any of their older Technologies and wouldn't all of a sudden decide to make all the developed technology obsolete.

My guess is that if I called Lionel and said hey I am only ever going to run starter sets and I'm really never going to run anything AC, maybe, maybe, some person at Lionel might suggest that I don't buy a $800 ZW, and they would be mortified if they thought I as a beginner set only runner was going to go trolling on a forum and somehow suggest that Lionel is completely shifting gears to DC only and poke fun at the long time users of AC, TMCC, Legacy, Visionline, etc.

OGR has been relatively troll free for the past year or so, I hope we don't have a new Vox. 

That facts are the facts.    Reckon I should have recorded the many conversations I had with Lionel and others.   Then folks would just say it was fake lol     : )

NCE is HO stuff isnt it?   The stuff Ken Patterson uses and advertises on "Whats Neat This Week"...Do not attempt to run any O-scale or G-scale equipment with the Power Cab. These larger locos require more voltage and current than the Power Cab can deliver. 

OH and I see they do have a O gauge setup!! 1000.00 !!  no mention of WIFI on it.

And thats what Im trying to get at that nobody wants to hear.   Lionels BT app is FREE!!!   No systems needed.   AGAIN no AIU, TIU, WIU , DCC, LEGACY, TMCC, nothing.   But you can add a 49.99 universal controller.    

Jim

I saw something strange today.     A Lionel Bluetooth antenna ??   Disguised as an AM radio station?   Is that for use with the TMCC/LEGACY stuff or what??

TexasSP posted:

fact

Dictionary result for fact

 

noun

plural noun: facts

1. a thing that is known or proved to be true.

   "he ignores some historical and economic facts"

   synonyms:

   reality, actuality, certainty, factuality, certitude; More

   antonyms:

   lie, fiction

Yes I know my statements ARE factual ..   

And here is the antenna I saw.   

Says it is a plug and play bluetooth antenna, after I found somewhere to read about it ..  It is a speaker lol  Pretty cool though!     I may have to get one!

Jim

pennsy484 posted:

I think some people are hearing what they want to hear, overreacting to what they are hearing, oversimplifying, overgernalizing and/or just not really grasping the situation or what is being said.

Of course Bluetooth and other new technologies need to be explored and implemented. But the idea that anyone at Lionel would say don't buy the ZW or that AC power is going to be completely eliminated from new Lionel offerings is absolutely ridiculous. Also obvious is that Lionel is doing a good job in adding new technologies without obsolete eating any of their older Technologies and wouldn't all of a sudden decide to make all the developed technology obsolete.

My guess is that if I called Lionel and said hey I am only ever going to run starter sets and I'm really never going to run anything AC, maybe, maybe, some person at Lionel might suggest that I don't buy a $800 ZW, and they would be mortified if they thought I as a beginner set only runner was going to go trolling on a forum and somehow suggest that Lionel is completely shifting gears to DC only and poke fun at the long time users of AC, TMCC, Legacy, Visionline, etc.

OGR has been relatively troll free for the past year or so, I hope we don't have a new Vox. 

OH so I am a troll because I believe something that you don't?     And I haven't poked much fun at longtime users of AC, TMCC, Legacy or Visionline. Seems quite the opposite.   

Jim : )

carsntrains posted:

pennsy484 posted:

I think some people are hearing what they want to hear, overreacting to what they are hearing, oversimplifying, overgernalizing and/or just not really grasping the situation or what is being said.

Of course Bluetooth and other new technologies need to be explored and implemented. But the idea that anyone at Lionel would say don't buy the ZW or that AC power is going to be completely eliminated from new Lionel offerings is absolutely ridiculous. Also obvious is that Lionel is doing a good job in adding new technologies without obsolete eating any of their older Technologies and wouldn't all of a sudden decide to make all the developed technology obsolete.

My guess is that if I called Lionel and said hey I am only ever going to run starter sets and I'm really never going to run anything AC, maybe, maybe, some person at Lionel might suggest that I don't buy a $800 ZW, and they would be mortified if they thought I as a beginner set only runner was going to go trolling on a forum and somehow suggest that Lionel is completely shifting gears to DC only and poke fun at the long time users of AC, TMCC, Legacy, Visionline, etc.

OGR has been relatively troll free for the past year or so, I hope we don't have a new Vox. 

That facts are the facts.    Reckon I should have recorded the many conversations I had with Lionel and others.   Then folks would just say it was fake lol     : )

NCE is HO stuff isnt it?   The stuff Ken Patterson uses and advertises on "Whats Neat This Week"...Do not attempt to run any O-scale or G-scale equipment with the Power Cab. These larger locos require more voltage and current than the Power Cab can deliver. 

OH and I see they do have a O gauge setup!! 1000.00 !!  no mention of WIFI on it.

And thats what Im trying to get at that nobody wants to hear.   Lionels BT app is FREE!!!   No systems needed.   AGAIN no AIU, TIU, WIU , DCC, LEGACY, TMCC, nothing.   But you can add a 49.99 universal controller.    

Jim

I saw something strange today.     A Lionel Bluetooth antenna ??   Disguised as an AM radio station?   Is that for use with the TMCC/LEGACY stuff or what??

DCC systems are not gauge specific. 

I have a NEC 10 amp system. Its powered by a $30 dc power supply.  And it was nowhere near $1000.  

This is the issue with this thread.  There is too much "opinion" injected as fact.  Some of us are trying to tell you guys the "fact" about BT.  Its not that BT is bad.  Bluetooth was designed to be a "near proximity" communication protocol.  As in a few inches to a few feet away.  Does it have a place in the starter sets?  Perhaps.  Does it belong in every loco?  No.  If you want something in every loco, it should be a control system standard such as DCC. 

VOX II

carsntrains posted:

pennsy484 posted:

I think some people are hearing what they want to hear, overreacting to what they are hearing, oversimplifying, overgernalizing and/or just not really grasping the situation or what is being said.

Of course Bluetooth and other new technologies need to be explored and implemented. But the idea that anyone at Lionel would say don't buy the ZW or that AC power is going to be completely eliminated from new Lionel offerings is absolutely ridiculous. Also obvious is that Lionel is doing a good job in adding new technologies without obsolete eating any of their older Technologies and wouldn't all of a sudden decide to make all the developed technology obsolete.

My guess is that if I called Lionel and said hey I am only ever going to run starter sets and I'm really never going to run anything AC, maybe, maybe, some person at Lionel might suggest that I don't buy a $800 ZW, and they would be mortified if they thought I as a beginner set only runner was going to go trolling on a forum and somehow suggest that Lionel is completely shifting gears to DC only and poke fun at the long time users of AC, TMCC, Legacy, Visionline, etc.

OGR has been relatively troll free for the past year or so, I hope we don't have a new Vox. 

OH so I am a troll because I believe something that you don't?     And I haven't poked much fun at longtime users of AC, TMCC, Legacy or Visionline. Seems quite the opposite.   

Jim : )

No I don't think that's why you are a troll.  I don't know why your are a troll.  I think its a dunning kruger situtation.  

Jim,

it may be time to site some of your sources for your "facts" and we'll need a better answer than:

"I will not discuss the MULTIPLE folks there that I have discussed this with.  But they are more than popular people."

If what they told you is true & factual, then they should have no problem associating their name with it.

MJCAT posted:

carsntrains posted:

pennsy484 posted:

I think some people are hearing what they want to hear, overreacting to what they are hearing, oversimplifying, overgernalizing and/or just not really grasping the situation or what is being said.

Of course Bluetooth and other new technologies need to be explored and implemented. But the idea that anyone at Lionel would say don't buy the ZW or that AC power is going to be completely eliminated from new Lionel offerings is absolutely ridiculous. Also obvious is that Lionel is doing a good job in adding new technologies without obsolete eating any of their older Technologies and wouldn't all of a sudden decide to make all the developed technology obsolete.

My guess is that if I called Lionel and said hey I am only ever going to run starter sets and I'm really never going to run anything AC, maybe, maybe, some person at Lionel might suggest that I don't buy a $800 ZW, and they would be mortified if they thought I as a beginner set only runner was going to go trolling on a forum and somehow suggest that Lionel is completely shifting gears to DC only and poke fun at the long time users of AC, TMCC, Legacy, Visionline, etc.

OGR has been relatively troll free for the past year or so, I hope we don't have a new Vox. 

That facts are the facts.    Reckon I should have recorded the many conversations I had with Lionel and others.   Then folks would just say it was fake lol     : )

NCE is HO stuff isnt it?   The stuff Ken Patterson uses and advertises on "Whats Neat This Week"...Do not attempt to run any O-scale or G-scale equipment with the Power Cab. These larger locos require more voltage and current than the Power Cab can deliver. 

OH and I see they do have a O gauge setup!! 1000.00 !!  no mention of WIFI on it.

And thats what Im trying to get at that nobody wants to hear.   Lionels BT app is FREE!!!   No systems needed.   AGAIN no AIU, TIU, WIU , DCC, LEGACY, TMCC, nothing.   But you can add a 49.99 universal controller.    

Jim

I saw something strange today.     A Lionel Bluetooth antenna ??   Disguised as an AM radio station?   Is that for use with the TMCC/LEGACY stuff or what??

DCC systems are not gauge specific. 

I have a NEC 10 amp system. Its powered by a $30 dc power supply.  And it was nowhere near $1000.  

This is the issue with this thread.  There is too much "opinion" injected as fact.  Some of us are trying to tell you guys the "fact" about BT.  Its not that BT is bad.  Bluetooth was designed to be a "near proximity" communication protocol.  As in a few inches to a few feet away.  Does it have a place in the starter sets?  Perhaps.  Does it belong in every loco?  No.  If you want something in every loco, it should be a control system standard such as DCC. 

The DCE is gauge specific. I just looked at their site!     If you go to their site they have a 10 amp system for  O gauge for 1000.00.   So you are using a DCE cab and another companies power supply.    DC power supply?  And your running O gauge?  Probably similar to the one Ive been looking at from Mean Well out of China.   They have a 5.6A for 24.99. Someone I know just ordered one.   Going to see how it works.

Jim

Facts are provable, your statem

carsntrains posted:

TexasSP posted:

fact

Dictionary result for fact

 

noun

plural noun: facts

1. a thing that is known or proved to be true.

   "he ignores some historical and economic facts"

   synonyms:

   reality, actuality, certainty, factuality, certitude; More

   antonyms:

   lie, fiction

 

Yes I know my statements ARE factual ..   

And here is the antenna I saw.   

Says it is a plug and play bluetooth antenna, after I found somewhere to read about it ..  It is a speaker lol  Pretty cool though!     I may have to get one!

Jim

By definition, facts or provable, your statements are not.  Whether they are a reality or not is irrelevant.  Not Provable = Not Facts.  Your information at best is hearsay.  Not only that, but it's just not believable.

As for your comments about DCC and Ken's equipment, that has nothing to due with anything other than the power supply.  I can run O off the cheapest DCC system with an adequate power supply.  Also, you don't even need a Wifi module for DCC Wifi, just have your system connected through JMRI.

There is a reason the largest manufacturers in the MRR marketplace utilize DCC protocol.  This could have been done with O and still could as DCC runs on AC.  It works with 3 Rail, 2 Rail, whatever.

The problem is you ignore the multitude of people on here with knowledge in all these different areas and make statements as facts which are not provable and ill informed.

Many of us model or have modeled in multiple scales and know the market and capabilities thoroughly.  DCC us the only system fully backwards and forwards compatible, fully upgradeable, and universal.

carsntrains posted:

pennsy484 posted:

I think some people are hearing what they want to hear, overreacting to what they are hearing, oversimplifying, overgernalizing and/or just not really grasping the situation or what is being said.

Of course Bluetooth and other new technologies need to be explored and implemented. But the idea that anyone at Lionel would say don't buy the ZW or that AC power is going to be completely eliminated from new Lionel offerings is absolutely ridiculous. Also obvious is that Lionel is doing a good job in adding new technologies without obsolete eating any of their older Technologies and wouldn't all of a sudden decide to make all the developed technology obsolete.

My guess is that if I called Lionel and said hey I am only ever going to run starter sets and I'm really never going to run anything AC, maybe, maybe, some person at Lionel might suggest that I don't buy a $800 ZW, and they would be mortified if they thought I as a beginner set only runner was going to go trolling on a forum and somehow suggest that Lionel is completely shifting gears to DC only and poke fun at the long time users of AC, TMCC, Legacy, Visionline, etc.

OGR has been relatively troll free for the past year or so, I hope we don't have a new Vox. 

That facts are the facts.    Reckon I should have recorded the many conversations I had with Lionel and others.   Then folks would just say it was fake lol     : )

 

Wonder why Lionel chooses to tell only you  these things and no one else or mention it in their user manuals, catalogs, or any other public facing forum...

Nope, doesn't pass the sniff test at all.

Time to end the trolling and bring enjoyment back to the ogrfourms.

My statements are well informed and factual.   Just not well received ..  And thats ok.    Nobody likes change.  The DC lobby is growing.   The Bluetooth lobby is growing.   Its all in fun anyway.  Or its supposed to be.  See some folks cant just disagree .  They have to go overboard and try to insult you.   Block you because your opinion is not like theirs. 

Jim

Jim.  I for one visit the forum to gain knowledge.  This thread is an example of that.  I have a couple LC sets, DCS, Legacy, and I run conventional.  I pop in on this thread now and then because people like Gunrunnerjohn are offering really interesting information and useful insight based on their knowledge and experience.  

You have apparently gotten it in your head that this is some sort of Ford/Chevy thing and that there's some huge upheaval about to happen and that people are somehow afraid of that.  In my opinion, you are misreading the entire situation and your comments are therefore coming across as trolling.

It seems that you have caused Gunnrunnerjohn to over and out on this thread.  His is the kind of informed opinion I, and I believe others, are reading this thread to learn, not your fantasies.  So basically you blew up the thread with some half baked "DC lobby" nonsense. 

Bye. 

carsntrains posted:

MJCAT posted:

carsntrains posted:

pennsy484 posted:

I think some people are hearing what they want to hear, overreacting to what they are hearing, oversimplifying, overgernalizing and/or just not really grasping the situation or what is being said.

Of course Bluetooth and other new technologies need to be explored and implemented. But the idea that anyone at Lionel would say don't buy the ZW or that AC power is going to be completely eliminated from new Lionel offerings is absolutely ridiculous. Also obvious is that Lionel is doing a good job in adding new technologies without obsolete eating any of their older Technologies and wouldn't all of a sudden decide to make all the developed technology obsolete.

My guess is that if I called Lionel and said hey I am only ever going to run starter sets and I'm really never going to run anything AC, maybe, maybe, some person at Lionel might suggest that I don't buy a $800 ZW, and they would be mortified if they thought I as a beginner set only runner was going to go trolling on a forum and somehow suggest that Lionel is completely shifting gears to DC only and poke fun at the long time users of AC, TMCC, Legacy, Visionline, etc.

OGR has been relatively troll free for the past year or so, I hope we don't have a new Vox. 

That facts are the facts.    Reckon I should have recorded the many conversations I had with Lionel and others.   Then folks would just say it was fake lol     : )

NCE is HO stuff isnt it?   The stuff Ken Patterson uses and advertises on "Whats Neat This Week"...Do not attempt to run any O-scale or G-scale equipment with the Power Cab. These larger locos require more voltage and current than the Power Cab can deliver. 

OH and I see they do have a O gauge setup!! 1000.00 !!  no mention of WIFI on it.

And thats what Im trying to get at that nobody wants to hear.   Lionels BT app is FREE!!!   No systems needed.   AGAIN no AIU, TIU, WIU , DCC, LEGACY, TMCC, nothing.   But you can add a 49.99 universal controller.    

Jim

I saw something strange today.     A Lionel Bluetooth antenna ??   Disguised as an AM radio station?   Is that for use with the TMCC/LEGACY stuff or what??

DCC systems are not gauge specific. 

I have a NEC 10 amp system. Its powered by a $30 dc power supply.  And it was nowhere near $1000.  

This is the issue with this thread.  There is too much "opinion" injected as fact.  Some of us are trying to tell you guys the "fact" about BT.  Its not that BT is bad.  Bluetooth was designed to be a "near proximity" communication protocol.  As in a few inches to a few feet away.  Does it have a place in the starter sets?  Perhaps.  Does it belong in every loco?  No.  If you want something in every loco, it should be a control system standard such as DCC. 

The DCE is gauge specific. I just looked at their site!     If you go to their site they have a 10 amp system for  O gauge for 1000.00.   So you are using a DCE cab and another companies power supply.    DC power supply?  And your running O gauge?  Probably similar to the one Ive been looking at from Mean Well out of China.   They have a 5.6A for 24.99. Someone I know just ordered one.   Going to see how it works.

Jim

Wrong.  

It is POWER specific.  They use "gauge" to help inform you which system you need as far as power requirements.  But the system has no idea what gauge loco(s) its dealing with, nor does it care. 

You do realize that you got standard retail pricing for the WIRELESS system, correct?   Probably not, because you are desperately trying to do ad-hoc research to prove your point.  And thats dangerous, because thats how BAD INFO gets out.  

"This could have been done with O "

Not according to Neil Young and Richard Kughn, who felt a need to develop TMCC 25 years or so ago.  DCC equipment at that time was not wireless, insufficient power, incompatible with AC standard track power,  and very expensive.  The incompatibility with the previous 90+ years of AC trains was a deal breaker.   You needed boosters all along the layout.  Lionel did this not to develop a proprietary system, but because the DCC marketplace was designed primarily for HO and was both expensive and unsuited to three rail O gauge.   While DCC looks like AC, it is incompatible with traditional open frame motors that work fine with AC power.  As I understand it, DCC uses modulation of the current to create its signal, which is something quite different from ordinary 60 cycle AC.

If DCC was easily adaptable and cost effective for three rail O gauge, someone would have come to market with equipment.  Hasn't really happened.  Perhaps that's because everyone has adopted TMCC/Legacy or DCS or both and there is no market.  But the outcome is inarguable, almost no one has provided equipment or adopted DCC in three rail O gauge.  DCC's original limitations led to TMCC which led MTH to develop DCS.  That's history.

What happens now we will find out, but it will take a decade or so.  Clearly Bluetooth has potential, is a readily available communications technology/protocol that won't get anyone sued.  MTH could use it if they want to.  No third parties are going to be making DCS/PS3 equipment because MTH hasn't shown any willingness to license their technology. It will be interesting to see if Lionel will make public and/or will license their Bluetooth/LC/LC +2.0 technology as they did with TMCC and Legacy.  But I doubt we will see DCC as a future major player in three rail O due to established bases of other technology and perhaps other issues.

That's false about DCC not being suitable for O.  2 Rail O command is all DCC.  I have run my MTH PS3 Locos on DCC.  G Gauge also runs on DCC which arguably requires more power than O.

As to why Neil and Richard chose the route they did I don't know, but your comments are also false.  DCC is a communication protocol, that's it, they could have used this for O, made it wireless, and given the required power just as they did with TMCC.  It could have still been Lionel DCC.  MTH could have done the same.  However they have figured part of that out since PS3 is DCC compatible.

MTH using BT wouldn't make them Lionel compatible, you have a fundamental lack of understanding of what BT is, does, and is capable of.

Something that was lost in all the bantering back and forth was the fact that I never said BT wouldn't be a player in O-gauge, and perhaps even a major player.  However, the current products don't show the potential to allow that to actually take place.  So, "if" it happens, it'll be years from now, because products just coming to market still don't have the range or flexibility to make BT a prime-time player in this arena.  I am curious why WiFi wasn't considered, given that even basic WiFi products have much greater range than the current BT offerings.  I don't see people complaining about the range of the WiFi link to either MTH or Lionel WiFi products.

"That's false about DCC not being suitable for O. " 

I said it is incompatible with traditional three rail O gauge.  That is because motors set up for 60 cycle AC will not operate with DCC on the rails. That's a fact.  And a main reason LionTech developed TMCC which is compatible with AC power.  There were zero DCC power supplies that could supply the 5+ amperes of current needed for O gauge three rail locos back then.  So saying that Lionel could have have adopted DCC in 1995 instead of developing TMCC is clearly contrary to everything I've heard from people like Mike Reagan, Lou Kovach, and other knowledgeable folks.

Try operating your MTH DCS loco with its switch in the DCS  setting on a DCC layout and you'll see what I mean.   Apparently nothing will happen (see H1000's note below).  MTH's DCC setting uses a DCC receiver to operate in DCC mode.  You cannot operate the DCC receiver using a TIU/WIU for that reason. That system doesn't output a DCC signal.  The DCC board is only intended for two rail DCC control of dual system equipped PS3 locos. DCC and PS2/PS3 would not play nice together.  Don't try operating your PS3 loco on a three rail layout using the DCC switch setting. Most DCC locos can function on a DC conventional layout, but that wasn't true back in 1995. DCC in 1995 was an entirely different animal in many ways than it is today.

Landsteiner posted:

.  Try operating your MTH DCS loco with the switch in the DCS  setting on a DCC layout and you'll see what I mean.  But please don't do it, because it will probably cause damage to the loco's board. 

NOPE!

Directly from an MTH user manual.

Point taken. Thanks. It won't harm anything, but of course, it won't work.  Glad they didn't set us up for serious failure .

The issue most have ignored is we have about 115+ years of AC powered locos out there that people want to be able to run on their layouts.  TMCC/Legacy and DCS allow for that.  DCC does not.  Bluetooth/LC/LC+/LC 2.0+ do allow for that.  This incompatibility is the major reason DCC isn't suitable for O gauge three rail for many consumers.  You cannot operate a conventional AC loco, whether with an open frame motor or can motor on a DCC layout. That's not an issue for some with only newer equipment, but it is for many. DCC is a system that never envisioned using an AC power source, which is needed for conventional locos in O gauge three rail.  The reason, indeed the only reason MTH made their locos with DCC installed was to allow operation on 2-rail O gauge layouts.

Landsteiner posted:

Point taken. Thanks. It won't harm anything, but of course, it won't work.  Glad they didn't set us up for serious failure .  

Newer MTH locos dont even have a switch.  It auto senses DCS, DCC, or conventional. 

MJCAT posted:

Landsteiner posted:

Point taken. Thanks. It won't harm anything, but of course, it won't work.  Glad they didn't set us up for serious failure .  

Newer MTH locos dont even have a switch.  It auto senses DCS, DCC, or conventional. 

I'm not sure about the auto sense between DCS & DCC. Many Railking PS3 engine don't have the switch because people would get confused when it was in the wrong position and the engine wouldn't run. Also, they figure that most of lower budget railking engines are less likely to run on a DCC system. The switch can be installed if one would so choose.

They don't autosense, you have to remove the jumper to run DCC with the RK engines.  Premier engines still have the switch and the very troublesome 2-rail/3-rail switch.

H1000 posted:

MJCAT posted:

Landsteiner posted:

Point taken. Thanks. It won't harm anything, but of course, it won't work.  Glad they didn't set us up for serious failure .  

Newer MTH locos dont even have a switch.  It auto senses DCS, DCC, or conventional. 

I'm not sure about the auto sense between DCS & DCC. Many Railking PS3 engine don't have the switch because people would get confused when it was in the wrong position and the engine wouldn't run. Also, they figure that most of lower budget railking engines are less likely to run on a DCC system. The switch can be installed if one would so choose.

It auto-senses, at least on my RailKing without the switch.  I've only run in DCC mode.  (Well, I did see conventional kick in once, and saw the jack rabbit mode engage.)

From the manual:  "When the locomotive is placed on the track and power applied to the track the locomotive will detect the control system being used and respond accordingly."

MJCAT posted:

H1000 posted:

MJCAT posted:

Landsteiner posted:

Point taken. Thanks. It won't harm anything, but of course, it won't work.  Glad they didn't set us up for serious failure .  

Newer MTH locos dont even have a switch.  It auto senses DCS, DCC, or conventional. 

I'm not sure about the auto sense between DCS & DCC. Many Railking PS3 engine don't have the switch because people would get confused when it was in the wrong position and the engine wouldn't run. Also, they figure that most of lower budget railking engines are less likely to run on a DCC system. The switch can be installed if one would so choose.

It auto-senses, at least on my RailKing without the switch.  I've only run in DCC mode.  (Well, I did see conventional kick in once, and saw the jack rabbit mode engage.)

From the manual:  "When the locomotive is placed on the track and power applied to the track the locomotive will detect the control system being used and respond accordingly."

MMM... Good to know, my manual reference must have been cited from older PS3 (Railking) model where there is a switch, or you can install a switch. (no 2/3 rail switch because railking conversions to 2 rail don't exist).

gunrunnerjohn posted:

They don't autosense, you have to remove the jumper to run DCC with the RK engines.  Premier engines still have the switch and the very troublesome 2-rail/3-rail switch.

There was a time when MTH first removed the switch, that you had to either remove the jumper, or install your own switch which toggled the jumper setting.  (From what I heard, they were dealing with quite a few service calls where the only issue was that someone flipped the switch to the incorrect control setting, so they removed the switch and the few who were running DCC had to open it up and remove the jumper or install their own switch.) The newer, newer railkings (not sure about premiers) now auto-sense. Not sure the year they started doing this; maybe within the past two years?    

H1000 posted:

MJCAT posted:

H1000 posted:

MJCAT posted:

Landsteiner posted:

Point taken. Thanks. It won't harm anything, but of course, it won't work.  Glad they didn't set us up for serious failure .  

Newer MTH locos dont even have a switch.  It auto senses DCS, DCC, or conventional. 

I'm not sure about the auto sense between DCS & DCC. Many Railking PS3 engine don't have the switch because people would get confused when it was in the wrong position and the engine wouldn't run. Also, they figure that most of lower budget railking engines are less likely to run on a DCC system. The switch can be installed if one would so choose.

It auto-senses, at least on my RailKing without the switch.  I've only run in DCC mode.  (Well, I did see conventional kick in once, and saw the jack rabbit mode engage.)

From the manual:  "When the locomotive is placed on the track and power applied to the track the locomotive will detect the control system being used and respond accordingly."

MMM... Good to know, my manual reference must have been cited from older PS3 (Railking) model where there is a switch, or you can install a switch. (no 2/3 rail switch because railking conversions to 2 rail don't exist).

yep, that was the "in-between" the switch and auto-sense models.  In fact, when I ordered my rail king and researched what I needed to do to it, I thought I was going to have to install a switch or pull a jumper.  When it came in, like a big dummy, I went ahead and opened it up to locate the jumper.  Couldnt find it.  After a couple of hours of going between google pictures and the internals of the engine, I actually read the manual.  And there it was, top of page 3 under Modes of operation. 

MJCAT posted:

carsntrains posted:

MJCAT posted:

carsntrains posted:

pennsy484 posted:

I think some people are hearing what they want to hear, overreacting to what they are hearing, oversimplifying, overgernalizing and/or just not really grasping the situation or what is being said.

Of course Bluetooth and other new technologies need to be explored and implemented. But the idea that anyone at Lionel would say don't buy the ZW or that AC power is going to be completely eliminated from new Lionel offerings is absolutely ridiculous. Also obvious is that Lionel is doing a good job in adding new technologies without obsolete eating any of their older Technologies and wouldn't all of a sudden decide to make all the developed technology obsolete.

My guess is that if I called Lionel and said hey I am only ever going to run starter sets and I'm really never going to run anything AC, maybe, maybe, some person at Lionel might suggest that I don't buy a $800 ZW, and they would be mortified if they thought I as a beginner set only runner was going to go trolling on a forum and somehow suggest that Lionel is completely shifting gears to DC only and poke fun at the long time users of AC, TMCC, Legacy, Visionline, etc.

OGR has been relatively troll free for the past year or so, I hope we don't have a new Vox. 

That facts are the facts.    Reckon I should have recorded the many conversations I had with Lionel and others.   Then folks would just say it was fake lol     : )

NCE is HO stuff isnt it?   The stuff Ken Patterson uses and advertises on "Whats Neat This Week"...Do not attempt to run any O-scale or G-scale equipment with the Power Cab. These larger locos require more voltage and current than the Power Cab can deliver. 

OH and I see they do have a O gauge setup!! 1000.00 !!  no mention of WIFI on it.

And thats what Im trying to get at that nobody wants to hear.   Lionels BT app is FREE!!!   No systems needed.   AGAIN no AIU, TIU, WIU , DCC, LEGACY, TMCC, nothing.   But you can add a 49.99 universal controller.    

Jim

I saw something strange today.     A Lionel Bluetooth antenna ??   Disguised as an AM radio station?   Is that for use with the TMCC/LEGACY stuff or what??

DCC systems are not gauge specific. 

I have a NEC 10 amp system. Its powered by a $30 dc power supply.  And it was nowhere near $1000.  

This is the issue with this thread.  There is too much "opinion" injected as fact.  Some of us are trying to tell you guys the "fact" about BT.  Its not that BT is bad.  Bluetooth was designed to be a "near proximity" communication protocol.  As in a few inches to a few feet away.  Does it have a place in the starter sets?  Perhaps.  Does it belong in every loco?  No.  If you want something in every loco, it should be a control system standard such as DCC. 

The DCE is gauge specific. I just looked at their site!     If you go to their site they have a 10 amp system for  O gauge for 1000.00.   So you are using a DCE cab and another companies power supply.    DC power supply?  And your running O gauge?  Probably similar to the one Ive been looking at from Mean Well out of China.   They have a 5.6A for 24.99. Someone I know just ordered one.   Going to see how it works.

Jim

Wrong.  

It is POWER specific.  They use "gauge" to help inform you which system you need as far as power requirements.  But the system has no idea what gauge loco(s) its dealing with, nor does it care. 

You do realize that you got standard retail pricing for the WIRELESS system, correct?   Probably not, because you are desperately trying to do ad-hoc research to prove your point.  And thats dangerous, because thats how BAD INFO gets out.  

 

They have a chart with gauges listed   N HO On30 O and Z .    With recommended sets for each.  I would call that gauge specific and you would also if you werent looking to argue.      

So you are saying the set they have listed for 1000.00 is ??????  And bad information.   When folks here constantly complain about the MSRP that Lionel has on their stuff?   It that set lists for 1000.00 how much is it?    I thought using the Manufacturers suggested retail price was a fairly accurate way to do things.  

In cart 1001.94 on their website.   Thank you !

Jim

I have that set but I didn't pay $1K for it. I got it for under $600 about 3 years ago. That set will allow you to run any DCC loco in any scale, you just have to use the appropriate booster. A 10 amp booster will fry an N scale or HO scale decoder.

https://www.modeltrainstuff.co...e-pro-10-amp-system/

584 on modeltrainstuff, however you can run with a lower power system.  It's all modular, and there are many other systems to choose from.  Someone can get into the base MRC system for 250.

catnap posted:

I have that set but I didn't pay $1K for it. I got it for under $600 about 3 years ago. That set will allow you to run any DCC loco in any scale, you just have to use the appropriate booster. A 10 amp booster will fry an N scale or HO scale decoder.

Not sure how, it doesn't force 10 amps into the loco, that's just it's max ratings.  The voltage is the key factor and guys run N and HO layouts with that system.  An HO MRR club locally uses that exact one with additional boosters.

CARSNTRAINS,

To say that it is power specific is correct. The right question is how many amps are you going to use on your railroad. That will determine what setup to use. For some people the lower amp system will work just fine in 0.

I do think you can use a 10 amp booster with H0 decoders. As long as you are not drawing more than the decoder is rated for. At least, I know 0 scalers who have done it, anyway. It is cheaper. The risk for using 10 amp booster in the smaller scales would be more attributable to inadequate (too small) wiring as a general practice in those scales. If your wiring is solid, no problem.

carsntrains posted:

MJCAT posted:

carsntrains posted:

MJCAT posted:

carsntrains posted:

pennsy484 posted:

I think some people are hearing what they want to hear, overreacting to what they are hearing, oversimplifying, overgernalizing and/or just not really grasping the situation or what is being said.

Of course Bluetooth and other new technologies need to be explored and implemented. But the idea that anyone at Lionel would say don't buy the ZW or that AC power is going to be completely eliminated from new Lionel offerings is absolutely ridiculous. Also obvious is that Lionel is doing a good job in adding new technologies without obsolete eating any of their older Technologies and wouldn't all of a sudden decide to make all the developed technology obsolete.

My guess is that if I called Lionel and said hey I am only ever going to run starter sets and I'm really never going to run anything AC, maybe, maybe, some person at Lionel might suggest that I don't buy a $800 ZW, and they would be mortified if they thought I as a beginner set only runner was going to go trolling on a forum and somehow suggest that Lionel is completely shifting gears to DC only and poke fun at the long time users of AC, TMCC, Legacy, Visionline, etc.

OGR has been relatively troll free for the past year or so, I hope we don't have a new Vox. 

That facts are the facts.    Reckon I should have recorded the many conversations I had with Lionel and others.   Then folks would just say it was fake lol     : )

NCE is HO stuff isnt it?   The stuff Ken Patterson uses and advertises on "Whats Neat This Week"...Do not attempt to run any O-scale or G-scale equipment with the Power Cab. These larger locos require more voltage and current than the Power Cab can deliver. 

OH and I see they do have a O gauge setup!! 1000.00 !!  no mention of WIFI on it.

And thats what Im trying to get at that nobody wants to hear.   Lionels BT app is FREE!!!   No systems needed.   AGAIN no AIU, TIU, WIU , DCC, LEGACY, TMCC, nothing.   But you can add a 49.99 universal controller.    

Jim

I saw something strange today.     A Lionel Bluetooth antenna ??   Disguised as an AM radio station?   Is that for use with the TMCC/LEGACY stuff or what??

DCC systems are not gauge specific. 

I have a NEC 10 amp system. Its powered by a $30 dc power supply.  And it was nowhere near $1000.  

This is the issue with this thread.  There is too much "opinion" injected as fact.  Some of us are trying to tell you guys the "fact" about BT.  Its not that BT is bad.  Bluetooth was designed to be a "near proximity" communication protocol.  As in a few inches to a few feet away.  Does it have a place in the starter sets?  Perhaps.  Does it belong in every loco?  No.  If you want something in every loco, it should be a control system standard such as DCC. 

The DCE is gauge specific. I just looked at their site!     If you go to their site they have a 10 amp system for  O gauge for 1000.00.   So you are using a DCE cab and another companies power supply.    DC power supply?  And your running O gauge?  Probably similar to the one Ive been looking at from Mean Well out of China.   They have a 5.6A for 24.99. Someone I know just ordered one.   Going to see how it works.

Jim

Wrong.  

It is POWER specific.  They use "gauge" to help inform you which system you need as far as power requirements.  But the system has no idea what gauge loco(s) its dealing with, nor does it care. 

You do realize that you got standard retail pricing for the WIRELESS system, correct?   Probably not, because you are desperately trying to do ad-hoc research to prove your point.  And thats dangerous, because thats how BAD INFO gets out.  

 

They have a chart with gauges listed   N HO On30 O and Z .    With recommended sets for each.  I would call that gauge specific and you would also if you werent looking to argue.      

So you are saying the set they have listed for 1000.00 is ??????  And bad information.   When folks here constantly complain about the MSRP that Lionel has on their stuff?   It that set lists for 1000.00 how much is it?    I thought using the Manufacturers suggested retail price was a fairly accurate way to do things.  

In cart 1001.94 on their website.   Thank you !

Jim

A PH-10, which is what I have, is half that price. 

You would have known that, had you:

A) Listened to someone who actually owns the system

B) Wasnt on a mission to do 5 second google searches to try to (incorrectly) prove their point

 btw, should you get a PH-PRO, you would own one of the top of the line control systems available, and would likely giggle at someone who talks about bluetooth. 

Landsteiner posted:

  The reason, indeed the only reason MTH made their locos with DCC installed was to allow operation on 2-rail O gauge layouts.

You can run DCC on 3-rail layouts. Look above, others are already doing just that. Railking engines can run on DCC, the third rail isn't an automatic disqualification. If you have PS3, 2 or 3 rail doesn't matter, you can run it on DCC.

What was the question?