Lionel H10 Audio Cutout Issue

Hey John,

So mine does cut out and come back "softer" in terms of the chuffing. I honestly never noticed a pattern, in terms of runtime, and attributed it to the track being dirty as simply turning up the speed knob, as you mentioned, brings the audio back to normal.

With that said I have never seen, nor experienced, the issue in the video where the lights and the audio get distorted like that.

I also don't run a battery in the tender.

I will put mine through it's paces tonight for 15+ and see if I get any similar simptoms.

As you've seen me post before John. My h10 was cutting out all over my layout out of the box, worse than anything I have ever experienced.

I put a drop or 2 of bachmann ez lube conductive oil on the pickup roller pins and after a few trips around the layout. The problem completely disappeared never to return.

I can only surmise (with my issue) possible contamination inside the rollers when they were drilled out.

My post is probably not much help.

The only other thing I can add is, while your first h10 and mine are the exact same model.

Mine did NOT have the board interference with the tender shell as it was already oriented "out of the way" from the factory.

Good luck as you search for a solution John. I'll be monitoring this in case mine goes south.

 These were a sell out for Lionel. You'd think someone else has had the same issue. I wonder if an email to Dave would yield anything?

Its rather disheartening when a product defect stumps an expert like yourself.

Ricko, I also had a troublesome engine that for some reason a drop of oil on rollers cured it. Has been running for years now with no problems. Hopefully GRJ will try it tonight. Can’t hurt. 

Did you try running it with the shell off and see if it quits? Harmonyards had a legacy steam engine that exhibited that behavior. Come to find out the shell was tapping the board. We ended up putting washers under the shell mounts and it has been fine since.

I tried conductive lub on the rollers and wheel wipers, and I also see the same thing with the rollers wired directly to power on the test track, so I don't think it's a roller issue.

I would like to get the proper harness to mount the board better, though even turning it around doesn't totally solve the interference issue.

I also stuck a different RS-Lite board, one for the Cab Forward, and it ran for an hour with flawless operation, my H10 has never done close to that.  I may have to resort to a different audio board, but I sure hate to do that.

Got a response from Dave Olsen in a flash, he has an interesting idea.  He mentioned an interesting possibility that I had no idea even existed!

Could be the sound set has too much bass, tripping the audio amp fuse. Try reducing the volume by 50% or so and rerunning your tests and see if it does it.

So far at lower volume, it's still running. I wonder if it can be that simple? I just cranked up the volume and BAM, it went nuts again!

That’s is so strange all these H10’s have these audio issues.  Mine has never had an issue yet and it’s one of my favorite engines to run.  I hope someone can figure it out in case mine starts having issues. I have the Reading seashore line model.  

My LIRR one is fine in terms of sound. Mine typically cuts out on when running slowly on switches but after that it's fine.

Well... that looks to be the actual reason!  Who know that the sound set could overload the RS board???  If I turn down the volume several notches, everything cleans up and it starts running normally again.  After a spell, I can turn up the volume again and the problem return.  This happens on both of the H10's I have here, so it's not just one.  It happens on my test track with the tender hard wired or on real track running, so it's not rollers or wheels.

Do all the H10’s have the same sound set?

Probably not, but these two are both PRR sets with the same style tender, and I suspect the same sound set, they sure sound exactly alike.  I repeated the test with the other one and it's repeatable, turn the volume down and it's happy.  However, I have to turn it down enough that I'm not happy with the sound level anymore!  The other variable is the size of the tender, maybe that has an effect?

Cutting out on switches is easy to fix, both of these already have that fix, my YLB - RailSounds Battery Replacement unit.

That's awesome you were given the solution; kudos to Dave Olsen. 

Having played in many rock bands over the years, I now remember times when a similar thing would happen; the low frequency bass notes would "bleed" into the P.A. system, causing the PA to overload and shut down. Then the problem was convincing the bass player to turn down...which NOBODY in a band wants to do!

...that's why I now do a solo gig... 

Mark in Oregon

Dave's answer came from left field, but it seems to be what's actually happened.  It was a new one on me, but I guess it's smart that there is an overload cutout on the RS-Lite, makes sense when you think about it.

I'll have to agree, Dave appears to know his stuff.

So what's the fix. Are you having to live with lower volume? Will Lionel make this right?

Holy mackerel. That’s one for the books. 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'll have to agree, Dave appears to know his stuff.

Of course he does! He’s a SUNY at Buffalo grad! LOL

Fortunately Dave is willing to share the "stuff that he knows".

On a side note. I added one of those MTH crossings with sound to my layout this winter and it has the same issue.

At 12v the the bell sound will start cutting out after about 10-15 seconds of continuous operation. If I lower the voltage to 8 or 9 it doesn't happen. 

On top of it. Theres no "recommended voltage level"  from MTH anywhere in the instructions or online, but it certainly won't operate correctly at the common 10-12v accessory range.

jini5 posted:

So what's the fix. Are you having to live with lower volume? Will Lionel make this right?

Can't say what the fix is right now.  The best "fix" I can think of is to reprogram the sound boards for a chuff with less bass, that seems to be where the overcurrent issue is.

romiller49 posted:

Holy mackerel. That’s one for the books. 

It certainly wasn't what I expected to find!

RickO posted:

Fortunately Dave is willing to share the "stuff that he knows".

On a side note. I added one of those MTH crossings with sound to my layout this winter and it has the same issue.

At 12v the the bell sound will start cutting out after about 10-15 seconds of continuous operation. If I lower the voltage to 8 or 9 it doesn't happen. 

On top of it. Theres no "recommended voltage level"  from MTH anywhere in the instructions or online, but it certainly won't operate correctly at the common 10-12v accessory range.

Yep, at least I know what I'm dealing with now.  I hope there's a sound set that won't overdrive the board that we can add.  As far as the crossing signals, that's easy to fix, not so easy to fix my $600 locomotive unless I want to live with greatly reduced volume.

RickO posted:

Its rather disheartening when a product defect stumps an expert like yourself.

Well, this one I didn't feel bad about, it's not like that would be something you'd expect to be happening. 

At least I narrowed it down to the audio board, and I figured it was a power supply issue due to the lights blinking.  I just had no idea they put an over-current monitor on the board, that was a surprise.  The bass overloading it was something that never occurred to me either.

Only one speaker right?   4 ohm impedance?   Would putting in a 8 ohm impedance speaker fix the over current without lowering the volume to much or mismatching the impedance to the audio amp to much?  Or, is everyone going to have send there engines back to Lionel for a new railsounds lite board reprogrammed?

It could also be a heat issue. More audio produces more heat.

You have a repeatable problem. try removing the tender shell to allow more cooling air to get to the electronics. See if that cures the problem.

I have a weaver consolidation where heat built up in the tender caused the TMCC chip to not work. I put a small computer fan in the tender and everything worked fine.

superwarp1 posted:

Only one speaker right?   4 ohm impedance?   Would putting in a 8 ohm impedance speaker fix the over current without lowering the volume to much or mismatching the impedance to the audio amp to much?  Or, is everyone going to have send there engines back to Lionel for a new railsounds lite board reprogrammed?

It's an 8 ohm speaker.  I've toyed with the idea of putting in one of the 16 ohm mini-fatboy speakers I have, they're the same form factor.  I'd prefer a new sound set with a bit less bass in the chuff to eliminate the issue at the source.  FWIW, I love the sound of the H10, but apparently it's "too good".

gftiv posted:

It could also be a heat issue. More audio produces more heat.

You have a repeatable problem. try removing the tender shell to allow more cooling air to get to the electronics. See if that cures the problem.

I have a weaver consolidation where heat built up in the tender caused the TMCC chip to not work. I put a small computer fan in the tender and everything worked fine.

It obviously is a heat issue, as what's happening is a PTC is heating up due to excessive current and opening the circuit.  I had already come to the conclusion that it was the audio board, the fact that I didn't have was that there is an overload fuse on the RS-Lite board.  Knowing that now, all the pieces fall into place as to what's happening and why.

If you look at the pictures of the tender and what's inside, there's no room for a fan.  This is also why it's likely the folks with the larger tender haven't seen this issue, not such close confines.

I tested with a different audio board, one from the Cab Forward.  That one had a totally different chuff, and it ran for an hour with no issues at all.  It also doesn't have near the deep chuff that the H10 sound file has.

I ran mine (6-85387) Western Allegheny at Full Volume and Max FX for over 20 min. this morning on freshly cleaned track and it did not skip a beat. Not even the "Softer Chuff" issue came up today.

I too was thinking of a thermal issue may be to blame for your failure. My Allegheny has a larger tender but it may also have a different sound set w/ less low freq., I do not know how we can be sure of this.

Also, the fact that your Cab Forward works fine is puzzling as if thermal was indeed the issue, it should have presented itself as well. My Legacy Shay is crammed up the ying yang, compared to the tender in this loco, and never gives me any issues.

I am very interested to see what you find as a possible fix other than lowering the volume lol

Hope this helps!

I have the Western Allegheny as well and it does the sound cut out all the time. Right now it is at Lionel getting fixed, but since they are moving I have been waiting for nearly a month now. When it would cut out it would happen when I would blow the whistle and it would happen randomly.

Blowing the whistle when it's already close to the overload does trip the cutout, but the primary offender seems to be the bass in the chuff it it's turned up to full volume.  When it's been running a bit and hasn't yet cut out, blowing the horn can push it over the edge.

Daniel, as far as the cab forward working, it's chuff has a totally different tone, and obviously isn't forcing the maximum audio drive current to the speaker as the bass in the H10 audio.

I also have a Legacy Shay, and it doesn't have anything close to the bass in the chuff as the H10, so it's not surprising that it doesn't cause the issue.

Still in the analysis stage for this one, but I'm interested in solving it in a manner that retains decent volume from the audio, that's one of the reasons I like Legacy, great audio!

 Or , The rcmc? gunrunnerjohn posted:

jini5 posted:

So what's the fix. Are you having to live with lower volume? Will Lionel make this right?

Can't say what the fix is right now.  The best "fix" I can think of is to reprogram the sound boards for a chuff with less bass, that seems to be where the overcurrent issue is.

romiller49 posted:

Holy mackerel. That’s one for the books. 

It certainly wasn't what I expected to find!

RickO posted:

Fortunately Dave is willing to share the "stuff that he knows".

On a side note. I added one of those MTH crossings with sound to my layout this winter and it has the same issue.

At 12v the the bell sound will start cutting out after about 10-15 seconds of continuous operation. If I lower the voltage to 8 or 9 it doesn't happen. 

On top of it. Theres no "recommended voltage level"  from MTH anywhere in the instructions or online, but it certainly won't operate correctly at the common 10-12v accessory range.

Yep, at least I know what I'm dealing with now.  I hope there's a sound set that won't overdrive the board that we can add.  As far as the crossing signals, that's easy to fix, not so easy to fix my $600 locomotive unless I want to live with greatly reduced volume.

Quick question? These usnit are newer rcmc? Is the audio power produced on the railsounds light board itself? 

Yes, its produced on the railsounds light board.

SHAWN, the RS-Lite board is a self-contained board with it's own power supply.  The only connection to the RCMC is the serial data coming over the IR link in the drawbar.  The only other logic board in the tender is the small board that does the LCS data transmission and coupler.

John,

You must have quick freeze at your shop,  Can you find out which component is over heating.  Maybe a small heatsink can be installed?

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Blowing the whistle when it's already close to the overload does trip the cutout, but the primary offender seems to be the bass in the chuff it it's turned up to full volume.  When it's been running a bit and hasn't yet cut out, blowing the horn can push it over the edge.

Daniel, as far as the cab forward working, it's chuff has a totally different tone, and obviously isn't forcing the maximum audio drive current to the speaker as the bass in the H10 audio.

I also have a Legacy Shay, and it doesn't have anything close to the bass in the chuff as the H10, so it's not surprising that it doesn't cause the issue.

Still in the analysis stage for this one, but I'm interested in solving it in a manner that retains decent volume from the audio, that's one of the reasons I like Legacy, great audio!

How dare you think I run my trains, especially one with whistle steam, without blowing the whistle! LMAO!!! 

On a more serious note, I do agree, the amount of BASS this engine reproduces is one of the best in my fleet.

When I finally did turn it down after the test, my wife came into the garage with the Face of Death, not going to do this test again at 6AM.

superwarp1 posted:

John,

You must have quick freeze at your shop,  Can you find out which component is over heating.  Maybe a small heatsink can be installed?

Gary, it's not much of a challenge to find the component, it's the PTC that Dave informed me was on the board to prevent excessive current.  The problem is the excessive current, cooling the PTC will just let it cook something I would suspect.  The object of the exercise it to fix whatever is causing the excessive current that is tripping the PTC.

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

How dare you think I run my trains, especially one with whistle steam, without blowing the whistle! LMAO!!! 

Perish the thought!

I have had the same issue right from the start. Cleaned the track and the rollers, and made sure the axle wipes made good contact. That solved the problem. 

After running for a while the problem will start again. Usually just cleaning the pickups takes care of it.

This is not a pickup issue, it happens on the roller test track with the pickups and frame having jumpers directly to power!

What can only be described as a lightning quick solution by Lionel has been done by their engineering crew.  Turns out that the audio simply has too much volume for the ratings of the RS-Lite board, thus forcing the shutdown issue.  Dave told me they have a new audio file that fixes the issue.  Here's his response, pretty impressive turn-around time I'd say!

We retuned the audio and reran tests all morning. Fixes the issue for the most part. To get it to fail again, you have to run the engine at full volume and blast the whistle for about 7 minutes non-stop. A scenario I figure won’t happen.

We reduced it about 2 dB total, so it isn’t a hugely noticeable reduction in volume.

We released the new version of sound code to Service, so if you holler at Dean, I’m sure you can just send the boards in and have them reflashed rather than sending in the entire loco.

I'll give them a couple days and then see if I can get these boards updated. I am not too worried about a 7 minute whistle, as long as the chuffing at full volume doesn't kill the sound, I'm good.

 Just curious. Does raising the train brake slider to reduce the labor/ deep chuff help the issue? Or is that not enough.

I typically run lighter labor settings on mine . Imo while the full labor sounds good, I think it's overkill for a  smaller prototype steamer.

I also run slightly less than full volume. What sounds like " loud enough"to my ears.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

What can only be described as a lightning quick solution by Lionel has been done by their engineering crew.  Turns out that the audio simply has too much volume for the ratings of the RS-Lite board, thus forcing the shutdown issue.  Dave told me they have a new audio file that fixes the issue.  Here's his response, pretty impressive turn-around time I'd say!

We retuned the audio and reran tests all morning. Fixes the issue for the most part. To get it to fail again, you have to run the engine at full volume and blast the whistle for about 7 minutes non-stop. A scenario I figure won’t happen.

We reduced it about 2 dB total, so it isn’t a hugely noticeable reduction in volume.

We released the new version of sound code to Service, so if you holler at Dean, I’m sure you can just send the boards in and have them reflashed rather than sending in the entire loco.

I'll give them a couple days and then see if I can get these boards updated. I am not too worried about a 7 minute whistle, as long as the chuffing at full volume doesn't kill the sound, I'm good.

Now that's service.   Glad this is working out real fast.

John I know nothing about these Electronics but in car audio systems when that would happen to the amp a capacitor being in front of the amp would always solve what was pretty much the same problem. could a larger capacitor maybe help the issue? Like I said I don't know anything about these railsounds boards. 

E-UNIT-79 posted:

John I know nothing about these Electronics but in car audio systems when that would happen to the amp a capacitor being in front of the amp would always solve what was pretty much the same problem. could a larger capacitor maybe help the issue? Like I said I don't know anything about these railsounds boards. 

My first job ever was installing car audio for Circuit City! Caps were only used when the vehicles stock battery/charging system could not handle the demand of the amp/speakers. Dimming headlights was a sure sign one was needed.

The issue here isn't that of not enough power, its more to the contrary, too much power is being sent and in order to protect the amp from failure, a PTC is stopping the flow of current. Think of it as what we used to call "clipping protection" in the car audio world.

I am over simplifying, but I am sure you get the picture a bit better.

Hopefully, not to muddy the waters, I have run mine (6-85387) Western Allegheny at Full Volume and half FX with a CW80 transformer with no issues.  But as I understand the fix, all we got to do is send the lite sound board in to Lionel and they will reflash it?  Also, Lionel is moving??

Also, great sleuthing by you fellas; Inspector Clouseau would be proud!