My brand new Lionel Rutland Mogul is dead on arrival. I programmed the TMCC ID, all sounds work, smoke unit works, it moved around the layout a little jerky, figured it needs a break in, backed it to its train. Hit forward and it moved an inch then nothing. Still all sounds work, smoke unit works but no movement.
the cab light is flashing, what does that mean?
ill be calling Lionel soon.
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Gary - that is a drag. Is there a factory reset before you reach out for service that can be executed on this engine?
Paul
superwarp1 posted:My brand new Lionel Rutland Mogul is dead on arrival. I programmed the TMCC ID, all sounds work, smoke unit works, it moved around the layout a little jerky, figured it needs a break in, backed it to its train. Hit forward and it moved an inch then nothing. Still all sounds work, smoke unit works but no movement.
the cab light is flashing, what does that mean?
It means you need to send it back! Good old Lionel quality control.
ill be calling Lionel soon.
The cab light flashes a diagnostic code.
1,2,or3. What the error code means is in the back of the manual.
The Loco will reset 3 times via the remote or you can remove power briefly and get 3 more.
Given the erratic operation. I'm guessing the code is flashing for "motor driver stalled".
Something jamming the drivers could cause this as well as dirty track.
Forum member SJC was complaining about traction tires rubbing the brake shoe detail on his mogul. I'd start there.
Legacy locos have back drivable gears. You can turn them by hand (with some resistance) and check for issues.
RICKO,
Luckily these models are relatively inexpensive, i.e. cheap, so such issues are to be expected?
No. Your absolutely right hotwater. I was just trying to give some info to Gary that might save him shipping charges if it's an "easy"fix.
That's 2 so far with operational issues. There will be more. The thing about Lionel defects is they're always "usual suspects".
I didn't see SJC's post, but I'm not thrilled with the traction tires on my B&M Mogul, either. First, they are mounted on the front wheels which makes changing them more difficult (not sure why they couldn't have been mounted on the rears).
More importantly, the tires seem awfully narrow compared to the width of the wheel, itself. It's almost as if the train is balancing itself on a tire which is too narrow for the wheel. If you look on the video I posted on the recent "Ac-9's Shipping" thread, you can see the train is wobbling a little on the tracks. In addition, the tires seemed out of round. When I track tested it at my local LHS, we saw the wobble and actually took the loco off and tried to true the tires with a very small chisel.
Gary - Make sure the tires aren't rubbing anywhere. Then I'd try turning everything off and turn the smoke switch off on the underside of the loco and put the loco back on the track and power up and start the engine. Make sure smoke is off on the remote. Hit the "R" button and you should hear a quick horn/whistle. Try moving forward and see if it goes.
If that works, I'd power everything down again and re-program under a different ID # with the smoke switch still off and then back to run. If that works, I'd power down again and put the smoke switch back on and back on the track. Run a couple of laps and turn the smoke back on via the remote.
Hot Water posted:RICKO,
Luckily these models are relatively inexpensive, i.e. cheap, so such issues are to be expected?
I'd hardly call a $600+ engine "cheap".................
As for traction tires, I cut the brake shoes off the front wheels. They are not screwed on. I cut the original tires off to confirm that was the issue. Once confirmed, I reinstalled the extra set temporarily until I could get my hands on thinner MTH tires. I will make it a point to replace again ASAP.
SJC posted:As for traction tires, I cut the brake shoes off the front wheels. They are not screwed on. I cut the original tires off to confirm that was the issue. Once confirmed, I reinstalled the extra set temporarily until I could get my hands on thinner MTH tires. I will make it a point to replace again ASAP.
SJC - I was also thinking of cutting off the original ones, but the replacement ones didn't look any better than the ones that came on it. If you find a set of wider, thinner MTH tires, please let us know the part #. Thanks.
Sounds similar to the tire problem on some of the F3 AA Lionel diesels a few years ago. I have a WM that had that issue.
Remnd me not to buy a used engine from you guys. Cutting off the brake shoes, traction tires? Sheeesh.
Let me suggest if you think something is rubbing, first connect an ammeter between the transformer and track assuming there isn't one on the transformer already. Then check to see the current never goes over about 1 1/2 amps running light. If it does or the current fluctuates greatly then something is dragging down the motor. If its a brake shoe then remove that axle assuming its the one not screwed on and grind the shoe down with a dremel. Shouldn't too hard given the keeper plate allows easy removal of the axles.
Pete
One flashing cab light means the main drive motor has stalled. Give the loco a small push and hit Aux1, 0. Then try to move the engine, it it still stalls and the flash comes back after a few tries, send it to be fixed
I’m going to give it a second look tonight, thanks for the suggestions. Sad but it seems who ever I purchase from there’s always some issue
Gary, if you want to call me, I can go through it with you.
I am running conventional and am getting the single cab flash at very low voltage. Will eventually stall the engine requiring a restart.
would this warrant a return to Lionel? First Legacy loco so my knowledge of these issues is non-existent.
Ok, update. With a careful inspection, no brake shoes rubbing, no binding of the running gear. I was able with a small screwdriver to turn the flywheel and yes the motor was locked. I was able to unlock it but after a little running it would lock up again. At slow speed there’s a definite bind. So I removed the plate, and yes added a little grease but it didn’t help. Check out the video. Something wrong with the worm gear, axle gear, or the motor itself.
Gary, look for the traction tires on the front set of drivers binding on the brake shoes. The tires on them are not good. Your own engine, cut them off and you know what do do then.
They may have put too big of a tire on that engine like they did with my Lionmaster Challenger
Marty Fitzhenry posted:Gary, look for the traction tires on the front set of drivers binding on the brake shoes. The tires on them are not good. Your own engine, cut them off and you know what do do then.
Well those tires sure may be causing that engine to bounce down the track but 100% sure it’s not the cause of the locking up of the motor. When the motor is locked up, everything else moves freely.
but for argument sake I’ll remove the tires and see what happens.
Love these; I have an "older" NYC version.
Side rod screws all snugged down (had a loco lock up when one would hit the main rod)?
Can you tell if the motor is loose in its mount (rocking/shifting affecting gear mesh)? Had that happen on a diesel or two. Check the piston rods/cylinder/crosshead interaction.
It may "work itself out"; had this happen before. Maybe run it for 15 minutes steadily and see it it improves; I don't think you would hurt anything as it does not appear to be under any particular strain. The "binding" makes me think this may not work, but before you send it back - it's on the layout anyway.
Probably none of the above, but they're free.
Looks like it may be time to email Lionel and get an RA# for warranty repair.
https://www.lionelsupport.com/Contactus/
Maybe see if they'd pick up the return shipping or you'll go back to MTH.
That return shipping starts to eat away at the prorder discount.
Let Lionel diagnose the problem and fix it for you. That may also help others that have the same problem. It’s Legacy, their best. They want and need happy customers.
Rod Miller
superwarp1 posted:At slow speed there’s a definite bind. So I removed the plate, and yes added a little grease but it didn’t help.
My mogul has the same bind/lurch at slow speed. The front side rods have excessive slop in the connection to the traction tire wheelset. I think that slop appears to be a bind. Maybe the factory used the wrong shoulder screws or oversized the hole in the side rods.
My motor does not lock up but my old TMCC mogul runs a lot smoother at slow speed.
romiller49 posted:Let Lionel diagnose the problem and fix it for you. That may also help others that have the same problem. It’s Legacy, their best. They want and need happy customers.
Rod Miller
I'm going to investigate more tonight. I didn't notice any extra play in the running gear but everything was free but the motor when the motor was jammed. More than likely I'll get a RMA and send it Lionel. I already have three or four locos that need my attention, really don't have the time to play with this issue. I'll let Lionel do it.
Hi Gary
If the side rods or traction tires aren't the issue, I would put the engine on stationary rollers and run it at full speed forward and backward for 10 minutes. Sometimes these engines are tight out of the factory, running at high speed just might loosen it up. it's worth a try before packing it up and shipping it back to Lionel. When I bought my NYC Empire State Express it was very tight out out the box, I ran it on rollers for 10 minutes each way and it solved the issue.
Alex
Yep, that's my plan tonight.
This is sad, but i guess to be expected now days.
FWIW, attached are pics of the inside. Crowded but looks 
well laid out.
aussteve posted:This is sad, but i guess to be expected now days.
This comment is such a sad commentary on today's Lionel O gauge command control locomotives. Why such obviously unnecessary DOA malfunctions occur flabbergast me. Being primarily an ogauger, on a whim I recently purchased an inexpensive z gauge starter set, Marklin 81846, made in Hungary. As you can see in these videosit runs flawlessly like a Swiss watch with no binding whatsoever of its diminutive gears, valve assembly, or 5-pole motor. If a 1:220 Z gauge steam locomotive with its extremely small mechanism made of intricate parts with ultra close machined tolerances can be manufactured and assembled to run smoothly and problem free without binding, why can't a much larger 1:48 O gauge locomotive be manufactured to do the same? Why such disproportionate quality control between these two scales?
Btw, while the Marklin locomotive shown runs conventionally there are command controlled Z gauge locomotives which similarly function superbly.
The Maerklin loco: "it runs flawlessly like a Swiss watch with no binding whatsoever..."
True, I'm sure, and not to defend this Mogul or any other product from any company, but 95% of my O-gauge locos (all brands) have "run flawlessly" also - even some used and banged-around ones. I have a substantial collection, and I'd need a meaningful sample of Maerklin equipment to know their problem rate. I guarantee you that there is one - everybody has one.
My banged-up, second-hand Lionel AC-12 Cab-forward - after I re-attached some parts, tightened the loose cab and straightened out the scraping pilot (dropped?) does, indeed, "run like a watch", Swiss or otherwise. A big, heavy watch.
My Lionel Mogul has been fine from the start. I'm sure Superwarp's will be fine too.
Gary,
Sorry to hear about your Mogul. While we do 100% testing off the line, issues can arise in transit. Please call us and we'll take care of you.
Dave
I just watched the video again. Somehow I missed the "plastic coal load".
That's B.S. (precisely why I no longer preorder)
Every scale steamer from Lionel, no matter the price range, has had a real coal load for at least the last 10+ years. This includes the KLINE tooled stuff which didn't have realistic loads from KLine.
Most if not all Lionel tooled locos were originally offered with a cast in load that was changed to a realistic load on subsequent releases.
The only exception was the legacy Pennsy turbines, which IMO were a complete disaster right down to the water damage.
Price range,smice range. Lionel has the highest prices in the hobby. They need to do better to justify it.
Correction die cast not plastic. Best diecast load I’ve seen
It looks diecast to me. The real coal loads are fine...but often the pieces come loose and can scratch the sides of the tender in the packaging.
Mike W. posted:It looks diecast to me. The real coal loads are fine...but often the pieces come loose and can scratch the sides of the tender in the packaging.
My mistake it’s the best diecast load I’ve ever seen. Don’t know where plastic came from. LOL
ok update. No more locking up. That’s one issue gone so far. I had to replace the traction tires and the bouncing is gone. The jerking is noticeable between speed steps 1-19 but after that it smooths out and runs great.. So I’m going to do another video and see what Dave says can be done. Better but not perfect.
My B&M has the exact same stutter issue. Will not run smoothly at low speed.
Surefire posted:My B&M has the exact same stutter issue. Will not run smoothly at low speed.
My central Vermont is the same. Not the first I've seen this with Lionel engines. My LC+ Camelback is the same
One issue as Marty stated is the traction tire, they are warped and uneven in thickness. Another issue in my humble opinion is why the traction tire on the front driver. Why?
RMA, is created and mine is going to Lionel. We’ll see what they say. Mine runs great after speed step 20
I suspect the traction tire is on the front driver set because thats where the motor is, mounted like a K-Line engine. You want the most weight over the tire.
Pete
Just curious if you have tried running it with the Odyssey off ? Could the jerkiness at slow speed be something in the driver board rather than mechanical.
Dave_C posted:Just curious if you have tried running it with the Odyssey off ? Could the jerkiness at slow speed be something in the driver board rather than mechanical.
Good idea, I'll try it.
Dave_C posted:Just curious if you have tried running it with the Odyssey off ? Could the jerkiness at slow speed be something in the driver board rather than mechanical.
I definitely don't think it is mechanical. I've manually spun the wheels via the flywheel a full rotation in each direction and it is glass smooth. I'll be curious to see if it improves once I get some good traction tires on it.
Just picked up mine (B&M) from Charlie Ro's this afternoon and wouldn't you know, it wobble's and run's jerky at low speed. I looked to see if there is an on/off switch for the odyssey but don't see it, the run/program switch is located where the owners manual shows it to be. Also when I assigned the locomotive an I.D. it will only display & run in cab-1 mode! Am I forgetting something like a little orange memory module, don't see one here in the box? Thanks in advance for any help.
MICHAEL464 posted:Just picked up mine (B&M) from Charlie Ro's this afternoon and wouldn't you know, it wobble's and run's jerky at low speed. I looked to see if there is an on/off switch for the odyssey but don't see it, the run/program switch is located where the owners manual shows it to be. Also when I assigned the locomotive an I.D. it will only display & run in cab-1 mode! Am I forgetting something like a little orange memory module, don't see one here in the box? Thanks in advance for any help.
Yeah no on/off odyssey switch. Make sure you selected legacy when you set it up in the cab2. I would return it charlesro for warranty repair. I know the tech and he’ll fix your traction tire issue which is causing the wobble.
as for the jerky running, mine seems to do it every quarter turn. Also after sitting for a couple of days it was locked up again and giving a fault one. So Monday it gets shipped.
Gary, I forgot about Lionel having eliminating the memory module. I set things up manually and added smoke fluid, wow except for the wobbling & jerkiness issues the loco sounded awesome & smoked really good. But what is that noise?, sounds like something rubbing or scraping up in the shell of the engine, maybe some loose wire's rubbing against the motor? Gee just like my new Amtrak F40 I bought a few months ago. I turned the sound down and yup something inside is rubbing. All of a sudden I notice smoke billowing out from under the loco, must be a bubble in the stack from the smoke fluid but its still discharging a large column of smoke. Oh no I thought I put in Lionel's premium pine scented smoke fluid not the "Burning up electronics" scent. Oh well, back to Lionel it will go just like my F40. Cheers.
It could be possible that a gear was poorly machined. On my Lionel Polar RR GP7, I had to replace one of the trucks due to a bad idler gear that kept causing it to bind. I actually removed the offending gear from that truck so I could run it on 3 axles until I could get the parts. Unfortunately I bought it almost 6 years after it was produced, so though it was brand new, it was out of warranty.
That being said, sending it out for repair is probably the best option while the repairs are free under warranty.
superwarp1 posted:... as for the jerky running, mine seems to do it every quarter turn. Also after sitting for a couple of days it was locked up again and giving a fault one. So Monday it gets shipped.
Ughhh... there's nothing like traveling where the rubber meets the road. We get all excited by terrific expectations built up by the catalogs each season -- only to be let down when we put the locomotives on the track. 
I'm finding with the construction of my new layout that a few accessories have needed some tender loving care as well. And one (a Lionel oil derrick) was DOA out of the box -- but we only now discovered that, since it was boxed in storage all these years. Certainly not a show-stopper, but disappointing nonetheless. 
So watch out all you folks who are stashing your purchases for that big dream layout some day. There may be gremlins lurking amidst some components in storage.
Hope everything works out in the end, Gary.
I repeat part of an earlier post to this thread, "If, out of the box, an inexpensive 1:220 rtr Z gauge starter set steam locomotive can run flawlessly like a Swiss watch with no binding whatsoever of its diminutive gears, valve assembly, and 5-pole motor with its extremely small mechanism made of intricate parts with ultra close machined tolerances can be manufactured and assembled to run smoothly and problem free without binding, why can't a much larger 1:48 O gauge locomotive be manufactured to do the same? Why such disproportionate quality control between these two scales?
I’m not trying to make excuses for Lionel but if their product was made to the same standards and in Europe as Märklin I would suspect we would be paying considerably more for our trains. As much as I would like to think we could still produce these expensive locomotives here in the USA I have to wonder if the end product would be any better and if it would still be an old MPC era rehashed product? Yes I’m disappointed with the problems with recent offerings but I have a considerable amount of Lionel product made back in the 70’s through the 90’s that can’t even begin to compare to the amazing stuff we can buy today.
Enjoy
Ok so I picked up the CV mogul yesterday. We ran it in the shop and it exhibited the jerking motion Gary described. My friend bought the B&M and his seemed to run somewhat smoother.
Ok brought them home and just tried running the CV. Running in Legacy and I did notice the jerking motion at low speeds up to about speed step 30. Interestingly, the behavior seemed less noticeable in the roll step which is the slowest you can run in legacy. I tried different momentum settings but I don't think it makes much difference. Runs fine in the slow speed step and above . The sound chuffs seemed to be about normal. Everything else worked on this loco as it should in Legacy. I also some some wobbling on the track as it ran. Kind of like the prototype so it seems. Thinkink that is the tire issue.
There is good news . I did not have any locking up like Gary . No flashes and stoppage. The second point is a complement to Lionel. I saw the pre production sample at York and mentioned to the Lionel folks that the headlight position on the CV was offset from center on the boiler front but not as high as they showed. They repositioned the light and it looks more like the CV. Thank you Lionel
Now that Gary is sending his back , perhaps Lionel will get keener insight regarding this engines behavior. I was always impressed with the slow speed smoothness with Legacy but we don't quite have it with this one. Maybe Dave Olsen after you check out Garys loco, perhaps you can advise us on an easy fix that can be done locally to improve performance. If we have to send it back well then so be it.
Let us know Dave
thank you for your help
We're going to look into this tomorrow. While I don't believe it to be a code issue, we're still going to check it out. I'm leaning towards traction tires for the few engines that are running jerky. If they're too big, that could be the issue.
Will advise what we find. Apologies for those having issues.
Dave Olson posted:We're going to look into this tomorrow. While I don't believe it to be a code issue, we're still going to check it out. I'm leaning towards traction tires for the few engines that are running jerky. If they're too big, that could be the issue.
Will advise what we find. Apologies for those having issues.
Would also like to know. Mine has a noticeable lurch to it as well. It seems to smooth out around speed step 30, per the Legacy remote.
When K-Line started installing their Cruise in their later production engines, some of them exibited this characteristic. It was caused by plastic flash in some of the vanes of the speed sensor. Lionel has adopted this type of sensor with Legacy.
Might be worth a closer look.
Pete
Dave Olson posted:
We're going to look into this tomorrow. While I don't believe it to be a code issue, we're still going to check it out. I'm leaning towards traction tires for the few engines that are running jerky. If they're too big, that could be the issue.
Will advise what we find. Apologies for those having issues.
You could use mine as a case study
Thank you Dave. Hoping that it is a simple fix. Keep us posted.
Last week I received my Lionel Legacy Rutland Mogil from Patrick's Trains. I got a chance to try it out on my test track on Saturday. Haven't had a chance to bring it to the club and let it stretch it's legs. I'm running conventional since I don't have TMCC or Legacy.
SJC posted:Hot Water posted:RICKO,
Luckily these models are relatively inexpensive, i.e. cheap, so such issues are to be expected?
I'd hardly call a $600+ engine "cheap".................
I believe he was joking.
I feel for you guys as I had issues with other new engines. I'm glad my new Legacy B6 runs very smooth. It's my first steamer.
Update:
We've gone over the engineering sample engines and the jerkiness is not prevalent. They run very smoothly. The traction tires are the exact same as what was used on the production run, so I don't believe that to be the issue. Someone also mentioned the side rod bolts might have shoulders too small, but I found them to be plenty wide enough.
I'm waiting for production samples and should have them tomorrow.
One thing to note is that this loco is not backdrivable like most Legacy engines. This wouldn't cause the jerkiness that's being seen, but just wanted people to know that.
Gary - I believe you said yours was also locking up? If it's doing more than just stuttering, then you have another issue and it should come back to us.
I'll update when I know more.
Dave Olson posted:
One thing to note is that this loco is not backdrivable like most Legacy engines.
Hmmm. Interesting.
I think this would be the first legacy Loco without back drivable gears.
Dave Olson posted:
One thing to note is that this loco is not backdrivable like most Legacy engines. This wouldn't cause the jerkiness that's being seen, but just wanted people to know that.
@Dave Olson your presence on this forum is great. But in the future I wouldn't mind seeing "back-drivable worm gearing" listed as a feature on the box. I do like this feature, and there's no definitive guide as to which locos have it, and which don't. It's one of the unique advantages your products have over some competing brands. Thanks!
Thanks Dave for the update.
You mentioned that you didn't think the tires might be a factor. I think some thought that the tires might be associated with he engine wobbling on the track during movement. Mine has a bit of a wobble.
as for the hesitation and jerky motion. I noticed it seemed less pronounced in the roll speed step than in the restricted speed step accelerating. In the slow speed step it seemed to smooth out. I think that the hesitation seemed to be miticgated by varying the throttle in the speed step range.
The other thing I noticed was the hesitation seemed less pronounced if you hit the roll step while travelling at speed and let the engine slow down in legacy .
Hope this helps. Keep us posted
Dave Olson posted:Update:
We've gone over the engineering sample engines and the jerkiness is not prevalent. They run very smoothly. The traction tires are the exact same as what was used on the production run, so I don't believe that to be the issue. Someone also mentioned the side rod bolts might have shoulders too small, but I found them to be plenty wide enough.
I'm waiting for production samples and should have them tomorrow.
One thing to note is that this loco is not backdrivable like most Legacy engines. This wouldn't cause the jerkiness that's being seen, but just wanted people to know that.
Gary - I believe you said yours was also locking up? If it's doing more than just stuttering, then you have another issue and it should come back to us.
I'll update when I know more.
Thanks Dave, watch my video. . Yes it's locking up, has the jerkiness and a wobble I fixed by replacing the traction tires. Engine leaves today for Lionel.
I received two of these beautiful moguls last week and the whistles are just fantasic! Thank you Lionel. But, when run both were wobbly and jerky, Everett #11 much more than Lakawanna #565. So much so that the bell swung wildly when running.
I have refrained from commenting until I have been able to do some in depth investigation using information from this terrific thread!
The problem was more pronounced at lower speeds. I observed my ammeter on my Lionel ZW-L transformer and yes there was an increase of amperage with every jerk, from 1.9 to 2.1 amps (I had a few lighted passengers cars on at the time, not just the locomotive). Not a fatal amount but not right. And, every jerk occurred in cadence with every rotation of the drivers, I could tell by listening to the chugging while watching the ammeter. Could not detect ANY binding in the running gear. I changed the traction tires to a 'thinner in thickness but wider in width' tread (MTH Mikado spares) with general improvement in bumpiness but the rotational jerk was still there, so much so that at startup the engine at times would stall with "1 blinking light", which I would then reset.
I popped the shell off, placed the chassis on the track and gently turned the motor flywheel with my fingers, remembering that earlier on in this thread someone mentioned that the play in the first set of drivers seemed excessive. THERE WAS WITH EVERY ROTATION OF THE DRIVE WHEELS AN EASILY DETECTABLE BINDING OF THE RUNNING GEAR, AT THE SAME POSITION EVERY TIME. Upon close inspection with a dental pick I found that the main rod segment between the middle driver and the first driver on the fireman's side would bind. I suppose at low speeds this is enough to jerk or stall the engine, and higher speeds possibly the locomotive can just roll through this point with the additional momentum.
By the way, my conventional moguls from a previous release a few years back have very little play in those drivers, much closer tolerances between the drive rod and the shoulder of the pin holding it to the driver, it looks to me.
Rick
Good information Rick.
Good info Rick. Have you checked to see how well the drivers are quartered? That may be the problem here.
Pete
Thanks Rick. Good to know. I could not detect any binding in my engine and neither could my dealer. My engine also has a noticeable "lurch" or "jerk" to it at slow speeds.
Makes me feel really great about the ~$3,000 in preorders I have out of the most recent Lionel catalog.......
Hi Pete,
How would one precisely check for quartering? I eyeballed it and it looks as close to 90 degrees as I can tell.
Rick
Rick, If the binding was caused by the drivers badly out of quarter it should be visibly off. If not, this might not be the problem. One or two degrees off might not cause it to bind. On the other hand if it was a problem with the siderods then I would expect it to bind twice a revolution.
Pete
Rick,
As I put in an earlier thread, my B&M Mogul had a bad wobble on the test track at my LHS and I ended up replacing the traction tires with the spares in the package, but it still doesn't look just right to me. It doesn't seem to have a pronounced jerkiness like others have posted, but I have noticed that the response time between turning the red knob and the engine actually moving seems to have a delay in it - unlike my other Legacy engines - perhaps due to some play in the rods. I'll check further tonight. I took the shell off and the flywheel seems pretty smooth.
My main problem is with the smoke unit. I noticed that there was a "bubble" at the bottom of the brass stack on top of the smoke unit that was apparently preventing it from smoking. I removed it and it ran fine. I wonder if that was enough resistance to trigger the voltage sensor and start the blinking light fault sequence.
There are lots of different MTH tire diameters and widths to choose from. I'll check the wheel dimensions tonight, but do you know the MTH part number or diameter and width of the traction tires you used ? Thanks.
Rich
Hey Rich! I don't know the part no., but I found these spare tires, and curiously I have a bunch of them, in a bag with other parts I have labeled for "Premier Mikado 2-8-2 NKP with PS-2 and Hi-Rail Wheels Item No. 20-3183-1". Hope this helps. I bought that mikado possibly 14 years ago. The tires at first seemed just a bit too wide for the groove in the Legacy Mogul but they seemed to have settled in there beautifully. I also wrote on the bag that they're for a 65" diameter wheel, I must have measured that mikado and came up with that, I did measure the Lionel Mogul and came up with 61" OD. (O scale inches, that is).
Rick
Thanks, Rick. MTH doesn't have an exploded view of that engine and they list about eight different tires as available in various diameters and widths, so I'll measure the Mogul tonight and then order a set.
Hopefully, you can find a way to eliminate the binding in yours.
Richie C. posted:Thanks, Rick. MTH doesn't have an exploded view of that engine and they list about eight different tires as available in various diameters and widths, so I'll measure the Mogul tonight and then order a set.
Hopefully, you can find a way to eliminate the binding in yours.
MTH has a tire chart here.
https://mthtrains.com/sites/de...ire_Chart_020414.pdf
Pete
Not a good advertisement for BTO IMHO...
Rick, did you compare the drivers and siderods before swapping them out? If so, were there any obvious differences?
Pete
D500 posted:The Maerklin loco: "it runs flawlessly like a Swiss watch with no binding whatsoever..."
True, I'm sure, and not to defend this Mogul or any other product from any company, but 95% of my O-gauge locos (all brands) have "run flawlessly" also - even some used and banged-around ones. I have a substantial collection, and I'd need a meaningful sample of Maerklin equipment to know their problem rate. I guarantee you that there is one - everybody has one.
My banged-up, second-hand Lionel AC-12 Cab-forward - after I re-attached some parts, tightened the loose cab and straightened out the scraping pilot (dropped?) does, indeed, "run like a watch", Swiss or otherwise. A big, heavy watch.
My Lionel Mogul has been fine from the start. I'm sure Superwarp's will be fine too.
I probably have 30 plus Marklin HO locomotives, both conventional and (Marklin) command control. I've not had any problems with the newer locomotives or those purchased new (or older used ones). I've had a problem with two used loks. One was given to me, one was bought very cheap. I knew they had problems when I received them and I was able to repair both. Both engines, similar in design, had a wire come loose from the commutator. A simple fix. I am surprised you guys put up with this quality issue. I've got two Lionel locomotives on order and am very concerned that they will be DOA. Frankly, I don't want the headaches of having to return an engine for repair.
Steve
Hi Pete,
To summarize, as an experiment to see where the binding was coming from on my Legacy Everett #11 2-6-0, which by the way caused that jump in amperage by 2 tenths of an amp on every rotation, I swapped out the first set of drivers with a set from a conventional Mogul I had on hand.
Yes Pete I saw differences in these assemblies- the pin or bolt with the shoulder holding the main rod to the wheel are not interchangeable with these two assemblies, the pin has a different size shoulder but also different size threads. Also the main rods have different size openings in their forward connecting hole also. Therefore I decided to drop out the front wheels complete with their pins and drive rods. What was interchangeable was where the drive rod connects to the crankpin on the middle set of drivers. Upon operation any binding was no longer present. So in the case of my Everett #11, I think I narrowed the problem down to either the drivers in front, or their quartering, or the pins/bolts with the shoulder, or the connecting rods. So I hope this information is of some help, I know it is not a solution, and this might not even be related to other folks' Moguls and their particular situations. But the conditions of steam locomotive drives can be terribly mysterious it seems.
Rick
Thanks Rick. It will be interesting to see how Lionel addresses this problem. In the meantime I will stick with my Odyssey version from 2004. Its one of the nicest running engines I have.
Pete
I didn't see any binding in the running gear like you did Rick but what you found is interesting. Being under warranty and not having the time or the desire to investigate further so I decided to let Lionel handle it. They will have it by friday but with York next week, I don't expect Dave will have time for a final solution until after the show. That's ok, I have tons of other projects and even more engines I can run while I wait.
superwarp1 posted:They will have it by friday but with York next week, I don't expect Dave will have time for a final solution until after the show. That's ok, I have tons of other projects and even more engines I can run while I wait.
We'll have an answer today. We checkout out your loco yesterday and are doing more testing. Stay tuned.
Hello all.
The traction tires are definitely too thin and do not completely fill the undercut in the wheel and are causing some swaying and in some cases hopping. For those who wish to change them please call customer service 586-949-4100 and ask for a pair of 6000242205 tires, these were used in the previous Moguls and fit perfectly. The CSRs will send them to you free of charge. We are still working on the solution to the jittering issue, it does not seem to be a binding issue or a traction tire issue as I have experimented in depth with 8 different Moguls and concluded it is not causing the jittering. There are some that I heard of that did have tires rubbing on the brake detail but are few. As Dave said stay tuned, we are on it.
Thank you for your patience
Now that’s customer service. Can you add them to mine when you get it?
Yes, I have it mandatory that all Moguls get the correct tires put on them when in for any repair.
Lionel Dean posted:Yes, I have it mandatory that all Moguls get the correct tires put on them when in for any repair.
Awesome
Hi Dave/Dean,
Any updates, finds, fixes?
I hope a positive verdict/ diy fix comes out so I can pick one up at York! (Bump)
superwarp1 posted:Hi Dave/Dean,
Any updates, finds, fixes?
Nothing yet. The traction tire replacements will help. We'll keep you updated.
Is The Mogul originally a K-line engine? I noticed from a previous photo the motor is sitting backwards like most K-line engines. I recall they had problems with this configuration. Probably why this engine is not backwards rolling and a bit jerky running..
joe
JC642 posted:Is The Mogul originally a K-line engine?
No.
Rusty
K-Line never made this engine. The only most all K-Line engines are smooth runners, at least all of mine are. Some with early K-Line cruise had some hesitation at startup but otherwise are smooth runners. Motor orientation should have no effect on running.
Pete
Lionel first offered the Moguls with TMCC back in 03. I don't recall seeing any reports of operational issue on these models, they also included the tender truck chain detail missing on the legacy version.
TMCC mogul:
Lionel more recently offered the moguls in conventional only, also good runners for conventional with a fantastic legacy "like"sound package as well. I think I prefer the whistle on the conventional model to the new one.
Conventional mogul from 2011:
"Is The Mogul originally a K-line engine? I noticed from a previous photo the motor is sitting backwards like most K-line engines. I recall they had problems with this configuration. Probably why this engine is not backwards rolling and a bit jerky running.."
No connection between performance and motor orientation.
"K-Line never made this engine. The only most all K-Line engines are smooth runners, at least all of mine are. Some with early K-Line cruise had some hesitation at startup but otherwise are smooth runners. Motor orientation should have no effect on running."
Yes, yes, yes and yes.
@dolson
All, I had a chance to take a look at one of the Moguls this past Saturday at our D3 meet at Norm's. I will say it is quite a nice locomotive. The sounds are phenomenal. I did have the chance to evaluate the motion and drive system of the unit and wanted to provide some feedback on what I saw. I hope it may be of some help to resolve the issues.
First, wanted to say that I owned the original TMCC version (CN version) and it runs flawlessly, great slow speed motion and not jerky at all.
I had the chance to run the Grand Trunk version this Saturday, and this is what I had noticed:
This leads me to question either the gear mesh between the drive axle and motor, or the tolerance of motor gear to the drive gear on the middle axle. The friend whom I had sold my TMCC Mogul to went back and checked what happens when drives the engine forward at slow speed. He found no movement of the drive wheel towards him (ie, no end play).
Not sure if there could be a gear tooth pitch issue on motor or axle, or just the alignment of the motor and drive axle.
My 2 cents, hope it may be of some help in diagnosis.
Greg,
Sounds like you have repeated what mine was doing locking up. Maybe a few shim washers on each side to prevent the side to side movement would be the cure. Hope Dave sees this and can comment.
The lurching (speed changes) that are being observed at low speed operation is probably not mechanical. Everyone is so focused on mechanical issues, that nobody apparently noticed that the speed-up / slow-down is synchronized with the activation of the smoke fan.
I have observed this same nuisance issue on some Lionchief Plus locomotives like the Mikados. At low voltages, the drive motor RPM's can be significantly impacted by the current drawn as the smoke fan motor cycles on and off, causing this "jerking" issue. As the locomotive speeds up, the issue tapers away as the fan motor operation transitions to continuous.
This problem goes away on the LC+ locos if the smoke unit is turned off. Has anyone actually turned off their smoke unit to see what effect it has on this slow speed issue?
GregR posted:The lurching (speed changes) that are being observed at low speed operation is probably not mechanical. Everyone is so focused on mechanical issues, that nobody apparently noticed that the speed-up / slow-down is synchronized with the activation of the smoke fan.
The mogul Steam Loco Greg posted about above was mine. We were able to repeat the binding that Superwarp reported with his. I'm pretty certain this is a mechanical issue.
Well my locking up issues are not caused by current draw due to the smoke unit. It’s possible the jerking which on mine is sinked to the chuffing might be caused by current draw where the board can’t handle the excess current and it’s pulling down the voltage the cruise control needs to work. Lionel has mine so I can’t check this.
Has anyone at lionel found out the solution to the issue yet? I would like to be able to buy a mogul for myself at york but only if lionel comes up with a good solution to the issue.
AmtrakNickFilms posted:Has anyone at lionel found out the solution to the issue yet? I would like to be able to buy a mogul for myself at york but only if lionel comes up with a good solution to the issue.
Still waiting for Dave O to get back with use. Since it’s York week, I’d bet everyone looking into this is at the show. I would highly recommend anyone attending the show to bug Lionel about this issue
Mine stalled last night and got the flashing cab light indicating a stalled motor. Just waiting for the solution so I can determine if it needs to be shipped in or if the repair can be done at home.
MichRR714 posted:Mine stalled last night and got the flashing cab light indicating a stalled motor. Just waiting for the solution so I can determine if it needs to be shipped in or if the repair can be done at home.
If you take it off the track and wiggle that center driver, you can get it to work again. But, I hope we hear back soon.
Gary, That's exactly what I did last night and got her running again.
Just Thinking about the lock up. a poster earlier reported that visually it looked like the driver on the left side was pushing outward. So thinking ,those who reported the lockup and then jiggled the center driver, i was just wondering if you may have noticed the center driver pushed against the drive rods and maybe stuck there before you jiggled it free.
I have a central Vermont engine. I notice the hesitation, lurch or jerk in slow speed up to speed step 30 or so, more so accelerating than decelerating. Seemed to be able to mitigate the non smooth motion a bit by modulating the throttle in the speed step range where it occurs. Also the hesitation was barely noticeable on the rolls step.
I have run this engine for about an hour or so , in the slow speed step which is above speed step 30 , smoke off and although hesitation was noticeable as described (under speed step 30) when accelerating from stop to slow, I did not encounter any lock up condition . Smoke was not on most of the time.
Sharing my experience and awaiting word from Lionel.
I also have not experienced the "lock up" problem. I HAVE had the engine shut down at low conventional voltage with the "motor stall" light flashing, such as when trying to make a smooth, slow speed departure. I just turned off power, reapplied, power, and took off.
I also HAVE a noticeable lurch as it runs, as mentioned elsewhere.
SJC Are you running it conventionally or just reduce track voltage during Legacy operation?
LIRR Steamer posted:SJC Are you running it conventionally or just reduce track voltage during Legacy operation?
Both. I typically operate conventional only but have a "loaner" Legacy set from a friend to play with while I make up my mind on purchasing a full Legacy system or not.
So the stall occurred when you were running conventionally at low voltage I gather. I am using a legacy set with track power being supplied through a DCS variable channel. I usually keep the setting on the track at 16 volts or a bit less. Thinkng it helps with light and smoke wick longevity.
I let the legacy speed steps do the work of accelerating. Have a momentum setting of about 6.
Hi- I've had time to tinker today, and I have a question for a metals person. I bought a 5/32 inch round brass tube at my hardware store today to make bushings for the Legacy Mogul's front drivers' drive rods, K&S precision Metals #8129 ("5/32 x .014 or 3.97 mm" the package says). They were out of stainless steel. Would stainless steel be a better choice for bushings?
I did cut two pieces of this brass tube the length of the shoulder on the drive rod bolts (~2.5 mm) in the two front drivers and inserted these bushings and oiled them. I did this because I feel there is too much play on this driver set, and here is where my drive rods slightly bind causing (I think) both the jerkiness and the occasional motor stall. There certainly is more play on my two new Legacy Moguls than on my two conventional moguls from a several years ago.
So far operation is very good, but I've only run Lackawanna 2-6-0 #565 just part of this afternoon. These bushings together with thinner in thickness but wider in width tractions tires I had in my spare parts box has gotten rid of the jerkiness and stalling (so far......... ha ha ha, my fingers are crossed). When reversing direction there is some looseness still evident in the drive rods upon starting, but I think this is somewhat normal for all engines?
Rick
correction that 5/32 round brass tube in my last post is K&S #8128 not 8129.
Rick
Ideally sintered bronze would be best. Brass would be better than stainless. Stainless is likely harder than the screw material and would wear the screws. The bearing material should be softer than the shaft its used on.
Pete
JC642 posted:Is The Mogul originally a K-line engine?
You can sometimes tell if its an old K-line tooling items by the fact that Lionel does not remove the casting on the shell that says "Built by K-line". On the Legacy B6's its under the cab after you remove the top shell. I've seen it on the Berkshires too.
Bruk posted:JC642 posted:Is The Mogul originally a K-line engine?
You can sometimes tell if its an old K-line tooling items by the fact that Lionel does not remove the casting on the shell that says "Built by K-line". On the Legacy B6's its under the cab after you remove the top shell. I've seen it on the Berkshires too.
But the K-Line Berks were O31, while the Lionel ones are O54. Does that mean the Lionel ones can really run on O31? I liked K-Line locomotives for that reason, great detail, scale, and could run tight curves.
Hi everyone, I'm a newb to the forum here.
I was wondering if there are any updates from Lionel regarding a pro-active solution to this problem. It seems to be two fold. 1. Traction tires being too big and 2. secondary driver bushing or transmission play.
It's quite the bummer to read this as I have eyes on one B&M version of the Mogul. I assume the Moguls have all left the "forge" and assembly line. This would be my first stand alone Lionel Engine purchase to take my RR modeling to the next stage.
What sort of brings the Boston area lines close to home for me is my Great Grandfather is supposed to have worked as a fireman on a Boston area Railroad. Still have research to do on that but its in the census records.
Any news is appreciated though at this point it seems I won't be buying this B&M Mogul.
No news, still waiting. Silence is deafening,......
SJC posted:No news, still waiting. Silence is deafening,......
I was hoping I missed something in the thread. These look like great locos otherwise. Perfect choice in my mind for what I would like to spend. Kind of between a Lion Chief Plus and Vision lines of products.
Expecting sample parts to test next week.
Thanks for the update, Dave. I just asked my dealer this morning if he’d heard anything.
SJC posted:No news, still waiting. Silence is deafening,......
The Ryan and Dave show addressed this last week rather thoroughly.
I'm hoping late January for the return of my engine if the parts Dave ordered fix the issues. Boy when I get it back it will be like buying a new engine, it's been so long since I ran it and it's appearance was only brief on my pike.
I know these things take time.
Did we forget about the Mogul problem or has a fix been found and i just don't know about it.
Bob Herr posted:Did we forget about the Mogul problem or has a fix been found and i just don't know about it.
Dude, it’s been listed for weeks. Plus put on top will all the announcements
Sorry I missed it. I do have another life outside of trains. it's terrible I have to work this way. Thanks for pointing it out to me.
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