A few things I heard at York

Andrew DeSabatino posted:

I'm really not surprised about this. With the amount of people attending slowly dwindling, it's getting to the point that a Saturday is starting to see just as many attendees as a Thursday. It's a shame because this meet has a lot of potential to bring in more people that the Eastern Division just doesn't seem to recognize. 

Really !!!! Its the Eastern's divisions fault  !!!!! Exactly , what do you mean ?

It is a TCA  meet  !!!! Why does everyone want to make this  into more than it was intended ? As a TCA member , you are well informed when it will take place from year to year . It is your decision to attend or not . It is the National 's responsibility's to attract new members , not the Eastern division's !!!!!  

Summerdale Junction posted:

It is a TCA  meet  !!!! Why does everyone want to make this  into more than it was intended ? As a TCA member , you are well informed when it will take place from year to year . It is your decision to attend or not . It is the National 's responsibility's to attract new members , not the Eastern division's !!!!!  

No it's everybody's Responsibility not just TCA or the National's responsibility. 

And who is going to pay for this advertising?  By raising dues and admission? People revolted when the dues were raised $15 a year!

TCA and the Eastern Division already have a Facebook presence. That’s where everyone gets their news and information, right?

Comparing Thursday attendance with Saturday attendance is just silly. Nicholas Smith’s table said they were swamped with customers both Thursday and Friday. I was there when I saw a guy buy seven locomotives in one swoop!  Their tables were almost empty on Saturday. 

Vendors complaining about York is status quo. It wouldn’t be the same unless they did.  Same with Greenberg shows and the Allentown Meet. They’ll be back like they always do. I think the York Meet should be open on Sunday too. 

Well, if vendors are complaining, that's too bad.

However, let's say too, you get out of York what you put into it.

One major manufacturer had a plain platform running a couple flat loops and a figure 8. Another had unfinished, incomplete Proto type on their big wall display. Some seemed too preoccupied with complaining about stuff to answer questions about their product. So. I take thos comments with a grain of salt

Now, the booths where folks put out effort, they were obvious.

Takes a lot of time and trouble to pull your inventory out of boxes so people can see it. Those folks want to sell! Thankfully there were a lot of those folks there. And hopefully they are there for a lot more years.

But a note to those first mentioned. My 10 year old grand son asked, "Pop, is that Christmas car really going to have a blue Santa and reindeer?" And "Remember our first show, Pop? These people used to have a nice layout, not just a board?"

Big guys, Kids notice the little things. And they are your future customers!

Maybe its time for the Eastern Division show to return to its roots as a swap meet for TCA members only. Go back to two days.

Even if the show was opened to the public on Thursdays, attendance would be low. Adults have work and/or other obligations. Kids belong in school. My kids never skipped school to attend York, they went when the show coincided with school vacations.

So why not make it a complete weekend event, Saturday AND Sunday. Forget about the weekdays altogether! Attendance wise it might even help since some posts on message boards report folks often don't go due to work obligations and of course children being in school, so what would be the harm for even just one time moving it to a weekend and thereby possibly minimizing such interference? Afterall, Allentown and the Big E shows are weekend events and they seem to be doing okay with that setup. As for dealers possibly not wanting to work on both Saturday and Sunday, they do it during the hectic post Thanksgiving to December holiday period to increase their sales, don't they, so why not York too? Give a weekend only format a trial test once or twice, as the saying goes, "Nothing ventured, nothing gained," so what would be the harm in trying it once or twice?

ogaugeguy posted:

So why not make it a complete weekend event, Saturday AND Sunday. Forget about the weekdays altogether! Attendance wise it might even help since some posts on message boards report folks often don't go due to work obligations and of course children being in school, so what would be the harm for even just one time moving it to a weekend and thereby possibly minimizing such interference? Afterall, Allentown and the Big E shows are weekend events and they seem to be doing okay with that setup. As for dealers possibly not wanting to work on both Saturday and Sunday, they do it during the hectic post Thanksgiving to December holiday period to increase their sales, don't they, so why not York too? Give a weekend only format a trial test once or twice, as the saying goes, "Nothing ventured, nothing gained," so what would be the harm in trying it once or twice?

Eastern Division contracts with the fairgrounds for specific dates for a few years at a time. The current contract runs out in 2019. Any change would have to begin in 2020. Doing only a one year contract would be much more expensive than a 3 or more year commitment.

Pete

So why not make it a complete weekend event, Saturday AND Sunday.

I think a lot of dealers and member table holders use Sunday as a travel / recovery day.
I agree that it would be better for non-table holders if the show was Saturday - Sunday.

Then again, other big shows run Saturday - Sunday. But do they draw dealers & table holders from across the USA?

You want more attendees allow virtual shopping.  I was at York a few years ago,  Before that maybe 15 years. Why? For me in Chicago the trip is too long.  So break a few rules and allow virtual shopping where an assigned virtual shopper uses his cell phone to capture each booths assigned name, email and content hall by hall in sequence moving along the floor arrows.  then put it on line in You-Tube. An off-site purchaser contacts the Hall's seller by email to set up a purchase and shipping.

I think this breaks 20 rules, okay so what. More sellers and purchasers  are happy. And TCA charges a small fee for each transaction. then they are happy too.

AlanRail posted:

You want more attendees allow virtual shopping.  I was at York a few years ago,  Before that maybe 15 years. Why? For me in Chicago the trip is too long.  So break a few rules and allow virtual shopping where an assigned virtual shopper uses his cell phone to capture each booths assigned name, email and content hall by hall in sequence moving along the floor arrows.  then put it on line in You-Tube. An off-site purchaser contacts the Hall's seller by email to set up a purchase and shipping.

I think this breaks 20 rules, okay so what. More sellers and purchasers  are happy. And TCA charges a small fee for each transaction. then they are happy too.

Kudos for thinking outside the box rather than dragging out the same old tired arguments.  And so what if you're suggesting breaking a few rules.  

However, people come to York to see and handle trains, and perhaps negotiate a deal.  Many of these items do not lend themselves to online viewing.  Many folks attend to MEET and INTERACT with other human beings - reducing York to an electronic marketplace would defeat the purpose.

Don't forget that a lot of the folks still have flip phones, if they have a cell phone at all.

And it would be critically important for the virtual shopper to follow the arrows!   

I spoke with several dealers who were swamped with business.  

If a vendor prices his stuff properly, it will sell.  My observation was that the complainers still want the prices from 20 years ago.  When I see common MPC rolling stock tagged at $20 or higher, I just keep walking.

You also have to respect the culture of the area.    York is in/near Amish country I think, and they close up all businesses to they can go to church and have a day of rest on sunday.    Might help the compainers to do the same.

I don't understand the "no photos in member halls" rule. Can someone explain it? I also witnessed it being broken.

Also, is the "follow the arrows" rule written down? I missed it. If you want folks to follow the arrows, make the arrows visible with bright yellow vinyl tape and a sign that says "please follow the arrows". It looked like they saved the masking tape from last year! I think this rule is because the aisles are so narrow, and the scooters and chairs take up most of it.

As for virtual selling, I don't see it working logically in this format, but if you allow photos, you might get some proxy buying.

George

C W Burfle posted:

So why not make it a complete weekend event, Saturday AND Sunday.

I think a lot of dealers and member table holders use Sunday as a travel / recovery day.
I agree that it would be better for non-table holders if the show was Saturday - Sunday.

Then again, other big shows run Saturday - Sunday. But do they draw dealers & table holders from across the USA?

So, who is this meet indended for? The table holders / dealers OR the non-table holders / customers?

If it's for the customers, then a weekend event is obvious. And even if one say's it's for the dealers, isn't the purpose of dealers and thriving businesses to serve their customers the best they can irregardless of personal inconvenience to themselves?

Jim M Sr posted:

Some seemed too preoccupied with complaining about stuff to answer questions about their product. So. I take thos comments with a grain of salt

 

 

Yep, the guy at MTH actually walked away from me while I was talking. I think I got one short question out. I heard the complaints from several vendors; same old stuff. They should make a rule to protect the vendors from themselves, "no complaining during the meet or on forums where members can hear you." Obviously, these guys never took sales training. If I did that with my customers, how much business do you think I would have? Does WalMart say "make sure you buy something" as you are walking into their stores? No, they say "Welcome to Walmart!" with as big of a smile as they can muster, and they say it several thousand times a day! Did anyone hear "Welcome to York!" Or "Welcome to my booth!"?... maybe at the start of the day by the President followed by rules and announcements. One more thing, Walmart doesn't use arrows.

George

I doubt very much that changes in rules or other issues will remedy the complaints if they are due to inadequate numbers of participants.  This is probably more economics and demographics, which are immutable.  I do agree that anything more than two days for a hobby show is probably unrealistic, and it should include at least one weekend day (Saturday) if you expect the public to participate.  Anything more than Thursday afternoon through Saturday morning is going to be impractical for vendors and TCA members in most cases.  People's lives and jobs are more demanding and constrained than they were in the past.

So, who is this meet indended for? The table holders / dealers OR the non-table holders / customers?

If it's for the customers, then a weekend event is obvious. And even if one say's it's for the dealers, isn't the purpose of dealers and thriving businesses to serve their customers the best they can irregardless of personal inconvenience to themselves?


The show is for TCA MEMBERS. That includes non-table holders and member table holders alike. I believe that even the dealers and manufactures reps in the dealer halls have to be members too, so I guess you can say the show is for them too. But their interests may not exactly align with those member table holders.
Some folks here seem to think all table holders are there for their entertainment. That is not the case.

The Carlisle CAR SHOW WAS THE SAME TIME AS YORK. Attendance is always down when the 2 shows are at the same time.

Some of the empty tables were dealers who went to Carlisle instead of York.

GG1GUYY

It must be the day after York again.   Everyone knows how to solve the issues but yet I don't see these folk having a trainshow of there own. 

Somebody said above it's everyone's responsibility to promote the hobby. The EDTCA does a fine job but we are a shrinking hobby. I really don't see apps and computer control preventing that. It trickles down to all aspects of the hobby. I do my part where and how I can to promote but trains have a hard time competing with video games, endless after school activities, and disconnected parents.

The EDTCA still has a meet.  They opened it to the public, allowed cell phones, and pictures.  They tried.  To say they are doing nothing is a bit insincere.

C W Burfle posted:

So, who is this meet indended for? The table holders / dealers OR the non-table holders / customers?

If it's for the customers, then a weekend event is obvious. And even if one say's it's for the dealers, isn't the purpose of dealers and thriving businesses to serve their customers the best they can irregardless of personal inconvenience to themselves?


The show is for TCA MEMBERS. That includes non-table holders and member table holders alike. I believe that even the dealers and manufactures reps in the dealer halls have to be members too, so I guess you can say the show is for them too. But their interests may not exactly align with those member table holders.
Some folks here seem to think all table holders are there for their entertainment. That is not the case.

About it being for TCA MEMBERS is certainly true CW, but if it wants to grow and prosper is that only who it should be for? What's more, even if it is for TCA MEMBERS, are the majority of those members both table holders and members or just members? I would guess the majority of TCA MEMBERS to be just members and IMHO an organization should strive to serve the interests of it's membership majority rather than its minority if it hopes to continue and prosper!

The will and interests of the many versus the will and interests of just a few should be paramount to a organization that wishes to grow, (at at least continue existing)!

Traindiesel posted:

 I think the York Meet should be open on Sunday too. 

That's because you aren't a vendor!  A number of vendors have left because the meet was extended to three days, and more would leave it it was four days!  Great for the attendees, not so good for the vendors.  However, if you chase all the vendors away, it won't be so great for the attendees.

As a new member my wife and I experienced so many of the vendors seemed disinterested in their customers. That said there was some really helpful folks. I over heard 2 well dressed gentlemen say they did more business at York then suddenly the conversation trailed off (my loss of hearing).  I recognized a CEO that I only praised and thank for the products his company produced. Though he was professional he really seem disinterested in my praise and thanks he actually made those attempted step away but realized I wasn't finished speaking.  I tried to purchase a product that I know is available on line from one of the largest distributors of train products and I was told by a lady check over there it might be in those ? She didn't have a clue and a gentleman that I believe was a direct representative of the company was literally on the phone for the longest time. I came back several times to no avail he was still on the phone. This all being observed I'll be back at the next show as I said I only started this 2 years ago and really enjoy this hobby. I've spent a lot of money in the last couple of years and it really amazed me during this time at how almost rude to less then professional behavior of some of the major distributors treat a customer and I'm talking very expensive locomotives. Maybe it just me you shouldn't treat another person like this let alone potential customers.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Traindiesel posted:

 I think the York Meet should be open on Sunday too. 

That's because you aren't a vendor!  A number of vendors have left because the meet was extended to three days, and more would leave it it was four days!  Great for the attendees, not so good for the vendors.  However, if you chase all the vendors away, it won't be so great for the attendees.

It would only be four days if they continued with the Thursday/Friday/Saturday time slots AND added Sunday However, by switching from a Thursday/Friday/Saturday to a SaturdaylSunday format would save a third day of being on the floor. Afterall, that weekend only scenario has worked for Allentown shows, so why not try it at York?

david1 posted:

 

There were several major figures in the train business that stated they may not return next April unless major issues are resolved. Those issues will be discussed when they get back to work next week. 

 

Dave

If the "major figures" were Lionel, MTH, etc...so what. They are not selling anything you can take home from York. Let THEM be the ones to "get people into the hobby". BTW, the Lionel reps at the Philadelphia WGH show, around 10 years ago, were two unmotivated, uninformed, bored guys. Good luck with that!

John, I was just kidding. I don’t think my aching feet would allow me to do a fourth day!  

The hobby is evolving, things are changing.  If the TCA doesn't change with them they will go the way of the dodo bird.   While I don't know the answer in regards to the spring meet.   Maybe drop Thursday and open Sunday, maybe forgo the big vendors at the spring meet and make it just a train swap the way it was in the beginning, or maybe drop the Spring meet all together.   If the hobby is really shrinking maybe once a year is the way to go.   Since everyone here seems to think the fall meet is better out of the two anyway.

The one thing I do know is it was almost impossible in the early 2000's to get a hotel room, now it's easy as pie for either spring or fall meets.   So you can't tell me numbers aren't down.

About it being for TCA MEMBERS is certainly true CW, but if it wants to grow and prosper is that only who it should be for?

The show has to continue being for TCA MEMBERS. Otherwise there is no point to having the show. 

What's more, even if it is for TCA MEMBERS, are the majority of those members both table holders and members or just members? I would guess the majority of TCA MEMBERS to be just members and IMHO an organization should strive to serve the interests of it's membership majority rather than its minority if it hopes to continue and prosper!


How successful do you think the show would be without member table holders from across the country?
If you want to discuss majorities, the question should be "What do the majority of Eastern Division members want? It's an Eastern Division show.

It's good to know you think as a non-table holder member you are more important than member table holders.

I like it just the way it is. If I could make a change, I would open the meet at 9AM on Thursday.

RPM COBRA, I agree 100% with you.

I had a vendor in the Orange Hall that when I made it to his booth it was slightly after lunch and he was just sitting down ready to eat his lunch I can understand this, been there done that.

He made no gesture (like hello I will be right with you) so I went on down a few isles and killed 45 minutes. The vendor had plenty of what I was looking for so it was no big deal.

Came back to his booth and now he is on the phone. I have good hearing and the phone conversation was nothing about trains.

Picked up the pieces I needed and stood there waiting for him to get off the phone so I can pay him, apparently he can't multi task !!!

Finally got disgusted laid everything back down in a pile and started to walk away.

 He yelled at me and I just kept going. I came home and added up the cost for the pieces I was going to purchase and that phone call and lunch cost him $ 567.89

And then the vendors complain about losing money.

I don't know much, but their is no question that it was the most empty tables  I have seen  since I have been going. 5 years ago I don't remember any empty, although their could have been. Also 1 less hall now. I would love to see a Saturday and Sunday show. I have seen venders from Nebraska selling at Springfield. They don't seem to have a problem with weekend table holders. John

It seems to me that the nature of the York meet has changed regardless of the TCA's attempts to keep it "pure." It may have begun as a TCA members only swap meet, but now it has evolved significantly into something more like a biannual train celebration, almost the Mecca of the train world along with folks taking pilgrimages.  And all this attention has attracted the interests of the general public, which is necessary for the meet and hobby to continue to grow. So the options are ether to embrace the new nature by relaxing all this TCA-member privilege (and those ridiculous rules) or to roll back the scope of the meet (and sacrifice any sort of hobby ambassador role). While I'm sure diehard TCA members would be in favor of the former, the hobby really would benefit from the latter.

My $0.02 anyways.

C W Burfle posted:

About it being for TCA MEMBERS is certainly true CW, but if it wants to grow and prosper is that only who it should be for?

The show has to continue being for TCA MEMBERS. Otherwise there is no point to having the show. 

What's more, even if it is for TCA MEMBERS, are the majority of those members both table holders and members or just members? I would guess the majority of TCA MEMBERS to be just members and IMHO an organization should strive to serve the interests of it's membership majority rather than its minority if it hopes to continue and prosper!


How successful do you think the show would be without member table holders from across the country?
If you want to discuss majorities, the question should be "What do the majority of Eastern Division members want? It's an Eastern Division show.

It's good to know you think as a non-table holder member you are more important than member table holders.

It's good to know you think as a non-table holder member you are more important than member table holders.

Kindly reread my post, CW, as you misinterpreted its intent. I never suggested any individual, myself included was more important than a group of TCA members but rather the opposite. That's why I repeatedly used the plural, members and membership, (a collection of individuals) as opposed to the singular form, member!

And yes, since it's an Eastern division show the majority of it's membership is responsible and accountable for determining the meet's future path. Likewise, if the the members of other TCA divisions and nonmember vendors disagree with that chosen path then they should do what they feel is in their best interest.

I'm not feeling the enthusiasm, here, nor on the other threads in the York sub-forum, that I used to read from post-York posters. What's happened?

FrankM

CALM DOWN, PEOPLE !

Jeez, remember we're going there to buy TOYS and to have fun.

Eddie G,  I also like it the way it is.  I also agree they should open earlier on Thursday.  Maybe not 9 am but at least by 11am or possibly 10 am.  I went to the East Coast Large Scale Train Show in March, at York, and they open at 9am.  Now, what's the difference between TCA York and the ECLSTS?  Almost everyone that I see at ECLSTS buys something.  People can be seen carrying boxes (that's right I said BOXES, plural, ) out the door and it's the same old stuff.  Is it PRICE?  If it was just Sat and Sun I'd probably pass and do my shopping online.  Thursday is very convenient for me.

Rick

artyoung posted:

CALM DOWN, PEOPLE !

Jeez, remember we're going there to buy TOYS and to have fun.

 

Nice try, Art, but the "sky is falling crew" will never calm down on this topic! The hand-wringing, fretting, doomsaying, and pontification will continue after every TCA Eastern Division Meet... and it will always produce the same result ..... (cricket, cricket)..... (wait for it).......(wait for it)......NOTHING! 

I can't believe I just wasted the time it took for me to read and reply to this thread!! I need a hobby.  

If we wish to talk about a successful York meet these things need to happen:

All dealers need to sell enough product to pay for their trip and turn a decent profit

The ED needs a sufficient amount of dealers, TCA member and public admissions to pay for the fairgounds rental, security, sanitation, buses etc.

Point is that its all hooked together.

Moonson posted:

I'm not feeling the enthusiasm, here, nor on the other threads in the York sub-forum, that I used to read from post-York posters. What's happened?

FrankM

I wouldn't quite know where to start, Frank! I love this hobby and expect to be involved with it in some compacity until the No. 1 Dispatcher upstairs decides my time is up. I also thoroughly enjoy attending the York Meet, and I'm happy to say that my bride enjoys it as much (or perhaps even more) than I do because she enjoys meeting and talking with the people there. We plan to continue atttending whenever we can, and certainly for as long as I am associated with the magazine.

As for possible improvements to the meet: Well, that kind of depends on an individual's perspective. My days of heading home with a car full of trains are pretty much over simply because I truly do have most all of what I want and need. But there is still more on the way for me because I have a number of preorders in the hopper. These days, I have a semi-formal "deal" with the wife whereby I can buy all the new trains I care to so long as I sell-off enough excess to pretty much defray the cost. Works okay for me! That being the case, York, for me, is primarily a recruitment effort for the magazine and, best of all, a social gathering where I get to share time with fellow hobbyists AND with the folks who supply the products I buy.

My own personal druthers, if I was pressed to express them (which I frequently am), would be, in light of evolving trends in the hobby and the industry in recent years, to see the Eastern Div. scale back to a once-a-year event--preferably held in October. I also would probably recommend that it be further scaled back to a two-day event, although that might not be necessary if it became an annual rather than a semi-annual event.

At the same time, I do reqognize the original purpose of the event which dates back many years. It was designed/intended to be a destination for toy train COLLECTORS to gather together for the purpose of buying/sell/trading trains and exchanging information and ideas to perpetuate that aspect of the hobby. That certainly worked well enough for a long time because the O and Standard Gauge segments of the hobby, as far as new product was concerned, was pretty stagnant for a couple of decades or so. Then came the 80s and 90s, and a dramatic rebirth of the hobby. At that point, a couple of things happened. Manufacturers, old and new, jumped on the bandwagon with new products and new texcnologies that couldn't even be dreamed of in the so-called "Golden Years of Toy Trains" in the poswar period. Concurrently, more hobbyists became interested in actually "playing with" the trains they had or were planning to acquire. Some developed an insatiable appetite for product, and in many ways that hunger for something new continues to this day. So, the manufacturers and suppliers to the hobby appeared front and center at York and similar events. Nowadays, so of those industry folks believe that going to York is like "preaching to the choir," and to a large extent they are right. BUT...and this is an important "but"...it is a very important choir because many of these TCA members are the very foundation of the hobby. Anyone in the industry has to be kind of careful about overlooking or alienating that choir!

Anyhow, these are just some preliminary thoughts. I could go on for many more paragraphs, but someone is knocking at my front door. Gotta go...for now.