A Hobby Observation

I see your point. I have been in the hobby since 1969 and although I had some of the new electronic wonders I got tired of not enjoying them. The issues with electronics  and many other things I decided to go back where I started which was the MPC era. Everything I had with the electronic innards went to eBay.

I'm building a small layout that will be Christmas themed of a New York Christmas with snow, the buildings of some of the most famous in New York by dept 56 in their Christmas in the city items that they make.

The new catalogs are chock full of good stuff if you have allot disposable income which I don't. I have not ordered anything from a new Lionel catalog in about 7 years. And don't intend to until they cater to the guys with smaller layouts and wallets.

I'm happy with my MPC era trains that I can buy for reasonable money. The whole point is to have fun. I'm having fun!!!

Dave

Since the advent of all the "electronic loaded" trains in O gauge since mid to late 1990s (Lionel, MTH) the cost of the electronics has continued to decrease.  So, in the computer world, for example, manufacturers have increased the power and capabilities to keep the prices "propped up" to similar levels for many years (think the last few laptops you have bought... you have always been able get one from between $400 and $1000 for the past 15 or more years).  In parallel, the software makers enhanced their offerings to take advantage of (and require in some cases) the higher capability hardware.

So, back to trains... seems like the same thing has been happening.  Instead of letting the prices drop precipitously, the manufacturers have encouraged today's preferences for scale, detail, more complicated electronics, etc.

Now, as to the wish list espoused by @JimJohnson:  What he is observing is that there seem to be fewer of the "affordable" and yet realistic items for offer than in years past.

I, too, wish for a middle ground where those who want the $1500 locomotive can have it.  I, on the other hand, want more of the $300-$500 with some of the cost effective technology in it.  This sector does seems to be shrinking in availability in my opinion.  I suspect with the demise of MTH O gauge, that trend may continue since they appeared, to me at least, to be the moderating factor in pricing and the provider of affordable, technologically based trains (think RailKing PS2/3).

Just my 2 cents...

I really think they can make all the $2500 trains they want, just make a few for the O gauge enthusiast. Something that can fit with my postwar stuff, and isn't a gimmick. Don't we have enough Polar Express already?

My concern is that the $2500 trains will hurt new people getting into the hobby. There are alternatives but if people don’t look further into used, Williams, Atlas others, new comers will be put off.  Say what you will regarding Menards model trains they are intro friendly. No engines yet.

Question: Wasn’t the reason for the train sets Lionel has sold for decades to get new people involved?

jmtc

I think this catalog actually has a pretty good selection for the budget-minded modeler (see page 64 and beyond).  Perhaps Lionel should do what MTH did and put the budget stuff first and keep the top-dollar stuff in the back of the catalog.  I think many (and perhaps some even in this thread) open the first few pages of the catalog, are blown away by sticker shock, and put it down without ever getting to the value-priced section.

Plenty of budget stuff if you want a gimmick train. Thomas, Toy Story, Frozen, Potter, Area 51, Star Trek, and on & on.

I agree with Woody.

BTW Jim --

1.) What specifically (not generically) are you looking for that is not there?  Specific roads? Steam or diesel? What kind of rolling stock?  There are starter sets, and there are mid-priced traditional-style items, maybe not the specifics you seek though.

2.) On the other hand you might like to see more traditional sized rather than scale items, and more conventional rather than command.  Is that true?

As Woody implies if you look in the Signature, or lately Big Book, catalogs you may be so overwhelmed by the number and type of offerings that you miss the good stuff that's in there.

Mike

As a Postwar/conventional operator, I totally agree and understand the sentiments.

But short of finding something you want in the latest catalogs, I put my hobby dollars towards Lionel PW, MPC, and the occasional Lionel Chief Plus/2.0 offerings. There is plenty enough of that out there!

@JimJohnson posted:

I got my first train in 1958. It was a Lionel 2056 Hudson, and I still run it to this day. It runs great. Along the way, I've accumulated some F3's, GG1's, and GP30's, and they all look great running on the small layout in my basement. I also have a Lionchief Berkshire and a GP7, and they look fine running along side my post war collection. What I see happening, is Lionel leaving the old traditional hobbyist behind. In the new catalog, I see literally dozens of new Steam locos and Diesels in the Legacy line. They look fantastic, if you have thousands to spend, and a huge layout with 72" curves to run them on. Of course you may as well consign your older trains to the shelf, because they will look silly running next to a 25" Mohawk loco. I get it, that Lionel is appealing to the scale hobbyist. They're willing to spend $2500 on a new Acela, or $1500 on a new Pacific. I think that's great, but us older guys still like an affordable(like under $500) O gauge train, with a real road name to run. A lot of us aren't interested in running a Star Trek or Area 51 train. My L&N GP7 from a few years ago, came with crew figures in the cab, smoke, electrcouplers, and rail sounds, and crew talk. The new catalog has a nice Chessie GP38, with "operating" couplers and a lighted cab?  I really like the KCS set, but I really don't need more Fasttrack. I guess all I'm saying is, Lionel, please don't leave the old hobbyist with a small layout behind. Thanks.

I don't think they did. For the traditional hobbyist with a small layout and not wanting to spend a huge amount of money, the new 2021 Lionel catalogue offers these in either Lionchief, Lionechief Plus or Lionchief Plus 2.0, at reasonable prices and not "gimmicky" :

Four (4) Baby K-4's

Four (4) RS-3's

Four (4) GP-7's

Thirteen (13) full train Sets

Two (2) Generals

Four (4)  0-8-0's

Four (4) U36b's

Four (4) GP-38's

That's thirty-nine (39) steamers, diesels or sets ranging in retail price from $550.00 down to $220.00 (and street prices cheaper). I'm no Lionel apologist, but I don't see how anyone can legitimately gripe that they have abandoned the traditional hobbyist with a small layout.

You beat me to it Richie.  There's still more "Traditionally Sized" non-licensed motive power today than there was 30 years ago... it's just buried between a much larger chunk of Scale and a huge pile of nonsensical licensed, Christmas, and Halloween junk.  

This just makes the "traditional" reader FEEL forgotten... when in fact there's plenty there.  You just need a rather sturdy strainer to find it.

I'd probably prefer to have a demo-targeted catalog for my tastes than a "Big Book" of stuff I don't care for that I have to wade through... but it is what it is.

Jon

thats why i use second hand market.personally i think the new stuff is awesome,yet there is a place for postwar,MPC era equipment.I love them all.One needs to be rich to afford the latest models.I love the smoothness of legacy engines.

Again, they need to do a better job of separating out their offerings.  Mixing in B&O GP7s and Kansas City Southern ES44s with Frozen and Area 51 trains is not the best choice for marketing their products in the best way.

But all the fictional "gimmick" stuff sells.  If it didn't sell, they wouldn't make it.  And if it draws more kids and families into the hobby, for that reason alone I can't see why anyone in their right mind would have a problem with it.  But separating it from the stuff for us "serious" modeler would be a good move.

True, and point taken. However, the GP-38's & U36B's with "operating couplers and illuminated cab" really don't compare to my L&N GP7 with smoke, cab figures, and electrocouplers, from a few years ago. It kinda looks like they cheapening some places. I guess I should shut up, and take what I can get. Thanks for the responses.

Jim, this forum is the place to speak up about concerns, questions, etc.  Should never feel like you should be quiet!

I think I must say in defense of Lionel though, your GP7 from a few years ago had an msrp of $329.99, whereas these U36Bs and GP38s have msrps of only $219.99 (yes, I had to look twice at that number, too).  The GP7 was LionChief Plus, and these new ones are just LionChief basic, hence the difference in price and features.  The RS3s and GP7s on pages 72 and 73 might be more in the range of what you're looking for feature wise.

If they really loved us, they would put ALCo trucks on those LionChief Plus 2.0 RS-3's...

Jon

My last purchase of a command engine was over ten years ago. Since then I've moved totally to post war. My roster now is 16 engines of which only four not made prior to 1957. Not against new stuff but , for me, it's not worth it. Heck, I even choose to run with the old post war transformers rather through my TIU. Agree with a previous post about appealing to young people and those with less discretionary income. Not everyone can afford a $500 engine let alone $1500.

As I have stated many times on this forum, O gauge/scale is a big tent with lots of options.  For me the only reason I got into O scale was after I discovered scale O and accurate models of the railroads I enjoy modeling and operating.  I have continuously been into trains since my first HO set at age 7 in 1976 but didn't discover O until 2003.  I do have lots of O trains of 50's vintage, but they tend to fall into the All-Nation, Walthers, and Athearn side of the hobby.

It is hard to define "young people" in this hobby anymore.  I know several 2 rail master modelers in their 20's-40's who mainly collect fine scale brass that I couldn't hope to afford.  I'm the youngest member of my TCA Division as far as I know and I'm 52 this year.   

The best part of the hobby is that there isn't a wrong way to do it as long as you enjoy what you are doing.

Is it me or does exaggeration seem to rule the roost here ?

I'm not sure about $500-$1,500 engines, but I know that for $338.00 street price you can get a brand new, good looking, well made RS-3 or GP-7 engine in a variety of liveries that can be operated in command mode, Bluetooth or conventionally with Voice Control, Railsounds, crew talk, fan-driven smoke, front and rear electro-couplers, dual motors, directional headlights, horn bell/whistle, cab light and crew figures that will run down to at least O-31.

If you want to run post-war, that's great and maybe you don't need or want all those features (there are lower priced options for those who don't), but I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that, when you account for inflation and cost of living, the current roster of engines is a much bigger bang than you would have ever received in the 1950's - 60's or any other previous decade and provides plenty of lower priced and feature driven options for the traditional hobbyist. 

@GG1 4877 posted:

It is hard to define "young people" in this hobby anymore.  I know several 2 rail master modelers in their 20's-40's who mainly collect fine scale brass that I couldn't hope to afford.  I'm the youngest member of my TCA Division as far as I know and I'm 52 this year.   

The best part of the hobby is that there isn't a wrong way to do it as long as you enjoy what you are doing.

Exactly.   There is no "Right" way to do this hobby.   Heck, I'm 57, and my  layout is Post War Style, and I still buy all the so called whimsical offerings, because that's what I like.   I have everything from Postwar loco, to LionChief, to Lionchief +, to TMCC, LEgacy, VisionLine, Railking and Premier.  I buy what I like and I never worry about what the other guys likes.

As far as prices:  One does not have to spend $1200+ on locos to get good stuff.  In the last several Lionel catalogs, there's been enough Lionchief and Lionchief + to give you a huge roster of motive power.

From the very beginning of this hobby, if you wanted the top line, scale, more prototypical stuff, you had to shell out more money.

In some ways, I think my post was misunderstood, or maybe I wasn't clear enough.  My biggest complaint, is the biggest % of Lionel offerings, is in O Scale, which is too big to run on my layout( I don't have 72" curves) and makes my O Gauge trains look small. I guess I'd just like to see a few more traditional offerings in O Gauge. Thanks for all the viewpoints.

I align with @JimJohnson and @Brad Trout. In another thread, I called us 'tweeners. Too small of a layout, too small of curves, or plain stubborn dedication to traditional-sized gear but with desires for some (not all) of the latest technology.

Couple of data points on why we might feel a bit left behind (not whining, just observing the impact on what might be a declining demographic).

1.  LC isn't enough. I view plain LC as toyish, GREAT and on target for families starting out with a youngster, but not enough for me and, I suspect, other 'tweeners. Bought an LC Thomas for my youngest about 10 years ago.

2. Seems like LC+ came out with a bang. Lots of variety from the start. Steam in Hudsons, Mikados, Camelbacks, A5s, and later the PW726 style Berk. Throw in ~5 models of diesels, and a bunch of road names, and LC+ hit the market with a bang. Not seeing the same aggressive launch with LC+ 2.0.

3. The LionMaster line seems to focus on articulated steam which is still bigger than what I prefer. The most attractive engine in my roster is the LionMaster Hudson from the mid-2000s and, while slightly larger at 22", it doesn't dwarf my other traditional roster. Or how about using the K-line semi-scale Hudson tooling.....to me, that's the 2nd best looking traditional Hudson made.

4. To get some extra features like 4 chuffs, more variety, and more detail, I made the possibly ill-fated decision to add DCS to my new layout. I got the bug and have purchased 6 Rail King Imperial engines in the last 3 years, 4 new from Forum sponsors and 2 used from a Forum member. Love 'em.  Fingers crossed that the new DCS Tech company can help keep this late move to MTH going.

I'm sure Lionel knows its market better than me. If it's kids with LC and 1:48 scale high-end with limited in between, I guess I'll have to look more at the used market and ERR component upgrades. But, if I see more variety in LC+ 2.0 steam, I'll be a buyer at $400-$500 for replacements of my obsolete TMCC 1.0 engines.

I am part of the (relatively) small crowd that wants scale size, moderate but accurate detailing, and minimal electronics--i.e. no command control, generic sounds (NO Crew Talk!), minimal lighting, and conventional smoke units.

The small size of the group means that we command very little attention n the marketplace, alas!  Rolling stock is easy enough to come by, but engines are usually either scale with all the unnecessary felgercarb or sub-scale, too often also with too much electronic stuff.  Postwar provides the right level of gimcrackery but sub-scale.

Thus, my HiRail purchases have been at a standstill for years.  My focus has lately turned to Marx (8-wheel plastic/DeLuxe) and Standard Gauge--original only, please.

Talk about your diverse interests!

l live in the past.  I left three rail in my teens for HO's then (50's-60's) wide variety of small steamers and variety of branch and shortline rolling stock.  I rediscovered three rail in the 1980's, but it was/is where l left it, concentrated on Class 1 railroads.  So l find little  of interest in catalogs.  It seems to me that small layouts could better use what l want then large articulateds (l have long pleaded for a small articulated, not scaled down, but a logger).  With the demise of a variety of mfrs., I never hope to see it.

@JimJohnson posted:

...  I guess all I'm saying is, Lionel, please don't leave the old hobbyist with a small layout behind.

Thanks.

I agree with your sentiment, but I guess everyone finds or carves their own niche in this hobby and goes with it, finding what they can when they can to feed their ongoing interest. For me, that is largely Postwar with some earlier Modern Era, but the production in the last 20-25 years or so, from Lionel to MTH, doesn't really hold my interest. When folks start talking about DCS 3.0s or Legacy 3000s, sine waves, and quantum computing and all that (!), I politely nod my head, but my mind is going wistfully back to a simpler time in O gauge railroading. That being said, I am glad that the hobby has progressed and includes these modern elements for those that love them--the hobby would have died off if the manufacturers hadn't evolved. But I like hunting for old fossils more!

1.  Whatever part of our hobby gives you something to look forward to and get excited is great.

2.  I think everyone would like more options in their specific area of interest, not less.

3.  IMO - Lionel is doing a great job paving the path to stay in business and provide options for all of us.  I read complaints about prices or quality.  How would we feel if Lionel goes out of business now? Crickets?  They serve many masters but at the end of the day they have to make money.  They are trying to continue to draw new people into the hobby (snow princess trains to high dollar steam) (race cars and HO to draw people to the brand).

4. No one is forced to buy anything but the next time we want to complain about Lionel just to complain, reflect on what it might look like with just Williams, Atlas Offerings??? and 3rd Rail/Sunset.

@JimJohnson posted:

True, and point taken. However, the GP-38's & U36B's with "operating couplers and illuminated cab" really don't compare to my L&N GP7 with smoke, cab figures, and electrocouplers, from a few years ago. It kinda looks like they cheapening some places. I guess I should shut up, and take what I can get. Thanks for the responses.

Squeaky wheel gets the oil!  This is the place to speak your mind and ask for what you want.  I’m sure Lionel knows what sells and what doesn’t but at the same time they can’t afford to lose a sale to a competitor that they could easily make.  That being said, they are here and I am sure they value our opinions.  After all, one-time purchases are not what keep them in business-hobbyists buying consistently are!

@palallin posted:

I am part of the (relatively) small crowd that wants scale size, moderate but accurate detailing, and minimal electronics--i.e. no command control, generic sounds (NO Crew Talk!), minimal lighting, and conventional smoke units.

The small size of the group means that we command very little attention n the marketplace, alas!  Rolling stock is easy enough to come by, but engines are usually either scale with all the unnecessary felgercarb or sub-scale, too often also with too much electronic stuff.  Postwar provides the right level of gimcrackery but sub-scale.

Thus, my HiRail purchases have been at a standstill for years.  My focus has lately turned to Marx (8-wheel plastic/DeLuxe) and Standard Gauge--original only, please.

Talk about your diverse interests!

Wow, you're right! That's another group with limited representation.

@DETROIT posted:

1.  Whatever part of our hobby gives you something to look forward to and get excited is great.

2.  I think everyone would like more options in their specific area of interest, not less.

3.  IMO - Lionel is doing a great job paving the path to stay in business and provide options for all of us.  I read complaints about prices or quality.  How would we feel if Lionel goes out of business now? Crickets?  They serve many masters but at the end of the day they have to make money.  They are trying to continue to draw new people into the hobby (snow princess trains to high dollar steam) (race cars and HO to draw people to the brand).

4. No one is forced to buy anything but the next time we want to complain about Lionel just to complain, reflect on what it might look like with just Williams, Atlas Offerings??? and 3rd Rail/Sunset.

I think us 'tweeners (like electronics and details, but in the smaller traditional line) aren't so much complaining as merely observing that we're a small market for Lionel.  I'm just not sure if demand or supply is the cause, and I think that's the speculation. Is the market of potential buyers really concentrated on the two ends.....families with young children where Lionchief sets are perfect fits and 40-80 y/o men on the other end of the spectrum with disposable income/assets and a penchant for detail and technology.  IMO, that's ONE POSSIBLE message from the 2021 catalog.

I wonder, though, if it's supply driven and, if so, no complaints. Perhaps Lionel's engineers and financiers have figured out that they can make the greatest margin on ready-to-run LC sets made and sold in high volumes AND in the high-end, 1:48 scale world, but not as much in between.  That would mirror to some extent the domestic automakers who have all but abandoned the mid-size sedan market to Honda, Toyota, etc. in favor of small, electric cars and big SUVs and pickups.

I discovered very late in the game that the Rail King Imperial Line fit me the best. Lots more variety than Lionel's Lionmaster line, a rough equivalent. Perhaps the message is I'm a rare type of customer.

Raising4Daughters, you are correct.  Individuals in our hobby with very specific unique tastes probably will suffer - so to speak.

My comments were offered with the intention of attempting to cut to the heart of the question getting kicked back and forth.

If a company doesn't make money, it probably can't / won't stay in business.  In our hobby in the last decade or so we have said good bye to K-Line, Weaver and now MTH.  Each for a different set of reasons.  As privately held firms, some realities were probably not public information.

Whatever anyone likes is GREAT but Lionel (others) need to produce products that make money and appeal to a broad enough base to support their production.  Lionel is doing a pretty good job offering something to almost every interest (IMO) BUT they can't loose money.

For better or worse the consumer dollars spent dictate what will be produced.

Mr. Muffins recent outreach regarding Lionel special runs, is a perfect example.  There were many excellent suggestions but in the end, Muffin would only pull the trigger on those suggestions that cleared his minimum pre-order number.

Lionel is doing what they are doing to stay vibrant and health for a long time, I hope!!!

In the case of Lionel, I think some of their corporate structure unfortunately spills over into their catalog structure. 

For example, they may have the same team members working on the development of the licensed and fantasy items who also work on the starter sets and LionChief Plus(2.0) lines.  And another team that focuses on advanced engineering and scale items.

But I'd wager a huge chunk of the LionChief Plus(2.0) customers choose that line because it most closely resembles the size and feel of the Lionel trains they grew up with... has the primary features they seek (ElectroCouplers, synchronized fan driven smoke, sounds, cruise), and matches the size and type of rolling stock they enjoy, but have zero interest in Halloween and Christmas items... much less Frozen.

And I'd also wager the Frozen customer has no interest in shelling out for features they'd never notice; like four chuffs per rev, and electro-couplers.

So when Lionel buries their LionChief Plus 2.0 line in and amongst the fantasy world... or there appear to be more traditionally sized rolling stock choices in the WWII Airplane Art, John Deere, and Coca Cola line than in real road names, the "core" traditional customers may get their hackles up.

Jon

Jon - I think your observations might be dead on.  The problem especially Lionel faces (huge overhead) is they somehow have to bring new blood into the O scale market or they are on the titanic taking on water fast.  (That would be terrible news for all of us / all interests)

When we were kids there were dozens of class one railroads and trains/railroads were a pretty common part of the daily existence of half to two thirds of Americans.  Therefore the average kid knew of Southern, Chesapeake & Ohio, etc.  and the "up take" to trains was pretty direct.  Today unless you live in a rural town that trains still pass through or an industrial section of a major city, most Americans not only don't think much about trains but probably couldn't tell you the name of one, let alone two of the remaining class one railroads.

I would suggest that's why there is the "co-mingling" at the entry level of the hobby.  Bring them in with Scooby Do and hope they later find the LV Lionchief set cool.  Ultimately up the chain to the more expensive specialized trains.  I suspect the crazy stuff some disdain is sort of the gateway drug into the hobby!?

Hardcore O gauge hobbyists can probably support one or two smaller niche manufacturers but Lionel needs bodies into the hobby and I'm not sure how else to do it than the approach they have taken.  Often to the dismay of many hardcore, real train enthusiasts / purists (myself being one) but I understand.

Question: Wasn’t the reason for the train sets Lionel has sold for decades to get new people involved?

Yes...

But I think this part of the hobby...O3R...is searching somewhat for a lifeline?

As I look back at catalog covers and advertisements, I think early Lionel was capturing the romance and allure of the main transportation industry and travel...the railroads.  In the 1930's, for instance there was a lot of encouragement of the relationship between youngsters and railroad workers...the locomotive engineer, in particular.  He's the one kids dreamed of being someday.  He had all that power, responsibility, excitement, adventure in his hands.  He related to everyone he waved to.  People set their timepieces by the conduct of his schedule, they knew him by the unique, musical whistle he blew nearing a town.

In the 1940's the railroads were the lifeblood of victorious, purposeful living.  On the railroads rested the future of....everything at home.

In the 1950's we celebrated home itself....re-bonding of the wartime family, father-son, Mom-Sis-Fido also, having close relationships, doing things together.  It all just clicked with our values.

But, frankly, after the mid-60's, I don't think Lionel...electric trains...has had a clue on how to get the buyer excited and wholly on board with the 'über alles' idea of a train set.   Now it seems to have become one licensing coup after another, one incompatible electronic upgrade after another, one feature after another, one scaling-up release after another, one re-release capturing all preceding variants after another, one price increase to be dressed up in the general USBLS CPI after another...etc., etc..

And, in the midst of it all, according to any assessment, the modelers of railroads, by far and away, have taken the hobby into a wholly different area....HO, uniform DCC standards, interchangeable upgrades, the widest range of products in support thereof ever imaginable (Tell me you haven't drooled or whimpered at the latest Walthers HO compendium for all segments of this HUGE end of the hobby?!  Yeah.....sure.)

Don't take this the wrong way.  If you think the "new people" you want in the hobby are the young kids...as was their focus of the 40's-50's...then O3R has the interactive play qualities that are appropriate for that age group.  And a train set thereof is the way to go.  But hanging on to them thereafter will be a real challenge, what with all the other enticements of this world...their friends...pursuing.  If you wanted to entice an older person into the hobby, I'd certainly have them give serious consideration in HO for the reasons stated above.

If they insist on getting started in O3R?   I guess I'm not sure whether a 'train set' is the best approach for the older buyer.  They should fully understand the nature of each segment of the hobby, the long term perspectives, before making that initial purchase.

Sorry for the ramble....just MHO....like everyone else's.

KD

I respect what you are saying.  For the sake of O scale and having some level of choice and selection into the future, I hope you are wrong.  I think to a degree it is a numbers game.  If you entice 0 new people into O scale it's nose down, ground approaching fast.  If you sell one thousand entry level sets, perhaps 50 people stay with it and grow into the hobby.  I have no idea what the conversion rate is.  I have noticed a number of late teen to thirty somethings finding there way to O scale, not sure how but I enjoy the enthusiasm and energy of their YouTube channels.

If the answers were easy K-line, Weaver, Mth, Lionel and more would be serving this hobby segment and we wouldn't have this thread.

Support what we still have the best you can and encourage new people that dip their tow into our pond, it's an awesome hobby IMO.

The old Sears catalogue had a section for kids, and a section for tools, and a section for ladies, etc.  This worked because customers didn't mix the tools with the skirts or the kids shoes.  The beauty of Lionel, on the other hand, is that items from all different sections of the catalogue actually play together rather nicely.  Thomas could pull a Legacy train.  UP's Big Boy could pull Annie and Claribel.

Grocery stores have the same problem - does a simple can of black beans with a Spanish label belong with the canned beans, or the Spanish food, or both?

Happy hunting!

Times change, things change.

We are lucky to have our trains, whatever they may be. I'm content with what I have.

Ron H

@Ron H posted:

Times change, things change.

We are lucky to have our trains, whatever they may be. I'm content with what I have.

Ron H

Yes, absolutely. I certainly don't want anyone to take my above comments as "gimme more of what I want."  I'm starting to recognize that what I want may not be profitable and am smart enough to know that no one will provide a product or service if they can't make a buck while doing it.

Between what I already have and what I see on the used market, I'm also content with what I have or likely can get.

I never noticed, for example, that my original TMCC engines lacked speed control or 4 chuffs. The new technology offers those features and others, and I'll probably buy some LC+ 2.0 if they come out in models and liveries I want.  But, if not, I'll still be happy with and grateful for what I've got.

Though I am a Charter Member of The 48 Club, I am heading more and more to the scale side of things, but unfortunately the space in my residence (and my wallet) won’t allow me to do that in “O”, especially if I wanted to do 2-Rail O in regards to my interests in model railroading (long 80+ foot passenger and freight cars).  In a basic 12 x 12 room with 2-Rail that would be next to impossible outside of basically a big circle with straights of negligible lengths, if any at all. My 14.75 x 9 ceiling layout fits my needs to a point, but I would love to be able to look down (as opposed to up) on my trains running through scenery.

The pandemic has all but shut down my O/HO/N/G modular club where my trains could stretch their legs on super long runs.

Because I want scale sized trains, I’ve been purchasing more HO stuff (I sold off all my N stuff, can’t see them as good anymore) and plan on doing that scale in a layout format and running my O on my ceiling, for Halloween + Christmas, and at the club, whenever that opens again.  Haven’t run on the floor in about 5+ years when I would set up Tubular layouts, but may very well start accumulating Fastrack so that I can run the big trains throughout the house and change up the layout on a whim.

scale,traditional,fantasy, they all work for someone.  I have a very small layout and use 40ft or smaller scale rolling stock.  Looks fine and works well.  I look for small locomotives as even an RS3 is too big visually.  As a point of fantasy info wasn't it a rodent that kept Lionel alive in the depression, or am I wrong?

O Scale Steam Era freight is great for smaller layouts. I have limited myself in that way because it's what I'm more interested in and also because it better fits my limited space. I do have some larger steam locomotives for a time later when more area will hopefully be available.

@train steve posted:

My concern is that the $2500 trains will hurt new people getting into the hobby.

The same argument was made back when it was, "will $10 for a new locomotive hurt the hobby because who can afford that?" If you go back and look at the old magazines, you'll see letter writers and editors addressing this question even back then.

When I was a kid and was reading Model Railroader in the early 80s, I specifically remember a letter to the editor about that, from some older guy who remembered back in the day of $1 cars and he was aghast that Athearn was charging what he considered way too much. Even as a kid with no money no access to way to earn any (and at the mercy of parents who meant well but weren't rolling in cash), I didn't think the stuff was all that expensive.

This is where free market comes into play. If Lionel wasn't selling all these higher-end locomotives with all the literal bells and whistles, you wouldn't see them come out with more and more stuff.

I find it funny especially among 3-rail fans, many of who I know buy stuff just to sit in boxes for eternity, as they're probably the reasons why the stuff just keeps getting more and more complicated (and maybe more proportionately expensive). In other words, some Lionel collectors will buy anything they make, so they make more and more and keep raising the bar at the same time.

@palallin posted:

I am part of the (relatively) small crowd that wants scale size, moderate but accurate detailing, and minimal electronics--i.e. no command control, generic sounds (NO Crew Talk!), minimal lighting, and conventional smoke units.

The small size of the group means that we command very little attention n the marketplace, alas!  Rolling stock is easy enough to come by, but engines are usually either scale with all the unnecessary felgercarb or sub-scale, too often also with too much electronic stuff.  Postwar provides the right level of gimcrackery but sub-scale.

Thus, my HiRail purchases have been at a standstill for years.  My focus has lately turned to Marx (8-wheel plastic/DeLuxe) and Standard Gauge--original only, please.

Talk about your diverse interests!

Someone like yourself could buy stuff like MTH PS2, Lionel TMCC engines and the like used, scale or near scale, rip out the broken command control and put in a dallee reversing board and maybe wire some lighting, and prob do it pretty cheaply. Thing is, people who want scale features also want the command control features that allow slow operations, etc.

Basically the problem is that the o gauge 3 rail world is diverse and Lionel and the other companies had to figure out how to navigate it. I would hazard a guess that Lionel's most profitable market right now is the scale side, the 1500-2000 buck engines, the scale detailed freight cars that cost 60 or 70 bucks, they command premium prices for those and the margins are likely high.  The more traditional sized stuff, the lionchief/lc+/lc 2.0 to me is a kind of 'gateway' drug, they introduce people to the fun of remote control without breaking the bank.  Menards is kind of covering the traditional stuff as far as cars go, RMT sort of covers that, too. Atlas is really scale as is 3rd rail, relatively expensive.

The novelty sets are what they always have been, to toy side of it to get kids and younger people into it, back in the day we had those operating cars, the helicopter car, the space car, the accessories, they had the 'ladies train', they had sets later on based around merchandising of popular products. The coors light train, the Polar Express, the santa trains, the frozen train, is based on a similar thing, get kids something they will enjoy they know.

I will add that I don't know if you have been looking at HO prices in Model Railroader or N scale for that matter, the engines, not talking brass, are pushing into the 500-600 dollar range (saw a rivarossi engine for that much), freight and passenger car prices are going up a lot, too, you see HO scale cars that are in the 40,50 buck range. While most engines can be had with either dc with DCC compatible plug or with DCC decoder in it, they are still expensive. The price of HO track isn't that cheap, either, last I looked.  Like with O gauge, of course you can go cheap, you can buy stuff off fleabay or used at shows pretty cheap, there are still relatively cheap new product out there and of course there is a lot more offered, but these are still pretty expensive hobbies. Lionel prob knows what sell and honestly with traditional stuff, with everything outside engines, why buy new when you have like 75 years of post WWII you can buy? Unlike engines boxcars and the like don't really wear down and are easily fixed. With the engines, you can run post war, if you want to have some ability to run remote you can use a powermaster with legacy or tmcc command base to control your conventional engines. It would be great if lionel produced new offering in scale and semi scale in large numbers, but isn't going to happen.

I have moved into postwar Lionel now. I do have command engines .  Never got into scale engines ect. I can see the attraction to the "bells and whistles" but I satisfied that with a few semi scale engines. Don't think I paid more than $300 for any engine I have.

A huge range of opinions!!

I had dumped all of my HO equipment, and scrapped the "open grid benchwork" that I had attempted to build (poorly) for years, as I moved (again) around 2004.  While on a winter getaway in 2013  I stopped on a whim at a train shop in Ft. Myers FL that had a simple, but large O Scale track w/ a LionMaster steamer set up.

I decided to jump into trains again, this time with a flat tabletop layout.  The reason I chose O GAUGE WAS the reliability of three-rail equipment and track.  Not "fiddly", as are N and HO (IMO).  This after years of attempting to build HO scale layouts- none of which ever ran at all.   I had an O gauge track plan developed, and even had a modular set of tables built to order, medium-sized with 048, 060, and O72 curves.   I started off w/ postwar conventional and in the 8 years since,  I have moved on to buy used Legacy, a few NEW Legacy, and LC+ locos.

A couple of years into building my layout, I bought a Starter PRR "Pennsylvania Flyer" LC set for grand daughters as a Christmas present.  I was blown away with what could be bought for $ 250, as were the grandchildren pleased having it.  I have since bought the same set for three families of grandchildren, and have caused friends to do the same for their grandchildren.

My visitors can't tell the difference between "scale" and O Gauge.  They don't SEE the 16" passenger cars as being "shorties".  And they think the layout is terrific, some even think museum quality (no way is it!!).

From a business standpoint, no doubt the largest dollars of sales in Lionel's business must be the sets, which means (today) Lion Chief lines and theme sets.

At the same time,  the "scale" crowd IS willing to spend a LOT more for a locomotive that is 1:48, has a bunch of features.  I think many never RUN them- they collect them, not any more as "an investment", but just because NOW they can afford them, and like them.   That makes Legacies that are new -never run-  available at good prices.  The market is now better for Lionel with MTH out of the picture.

So- there are two opposed market segments, separated by price, theme, and  complexity.  If I were Lionel, I would split the catalog- Legacy in one small catalog (maybe even only an online catalog), and everything else, with LC+ and LC+ 2.0 being the step up.  The LHS will still carry the lower-priced items, as their customers seek out and order them.  But the real volume IS and had always been, "toy trains".  Even big-box stores (like Menards) would likely carry the sets.

I was reading everyone's comments.  I was a little confused because Lionel has made that push for less expensive more traditional sized trains with all the LionChief lines.  And even though it does not match the scale lines in terms of variety, it certainly has a lot.  The reason I never went for Postwar stuff was because it really was toy like and that's fine because that is what it was at the time.  But everything gets more advanced and Lionel's scale stuff obviously is incredible looking, has all the tech in it but it is super expensive.  I don't think people who want traditional size stuff are being left out.  With Lionel adding LionChief to the mix they gave them that smaller size and lower cost.  I realize for some 500.00 may not be low enough you have to be realistic.   Please remember, they are a BUSINESS.  They will produce product that gives them the best return.  I think they have been trying to give a larger variety for everyone, but you are not going to see 200.00 trains anymore.  Even back in the 50's when Lionel was making trains, they were not cheap compared to incomes.  For post war enthusiasts eBay has massive amount of inventory available.  I still think todays train world has tons of options for everyone, on every budget for what realistically can be produced by a company to make a profit and stay in business. 

What Sean said ...

kd