A Hobby Observation

I see your point. I have been in the hobby since 1969 and although I had some of the new electronic wonders I got tired of not enjoying them. The issues with electronics  and many other things I decided to go back where I started which was the MPC era. Everything I had with the electronic innards went to eBay.

I'm building a small layout that will be Christmas themed of a New York Christmas with snow, the buildings of some of the most famous in New York by dept 56 in their Christmas in the city items that they make.

The new catalogs are chock full of good stuff if you have allot disposable income which I don't. I have not ordered anything from a new Lionel catalog in about 7 years. And don't intend to until they cater to the guys with smaller layouts and wallets.

I'm happy with my MPC era trains that I can buy for reasonable money. The whole point is to have fun. I'm having fun!!!

Dave

Since the advent of all the "electronic loaded" trains in O gauge since mid to late 1990s (Lionel, MTH) the cost of the electronics has continued to decrease.  So, in the computer world, for example, manufacturers have increased the power and capabilities to keep the prices "propped up" to similar levels for many years (think the last few laptops you have bought... you have always been able get one from between $400 and $1000 for the past 15 or more years).  In parallel, the software makers enhanced their offerings to take advantage of (and require in some cases) the higher capability hardware.

So, back to trains... seems like the same thing has been happening.  Instead of letting the prices drop precipitously, the manufacturers have encouraged today's preferences for scale, detail, more complicated electronics, etc.

Now, as to the wish list espoused by @JimJohnson:  What he is observing is that there seem to be fewer of the "affordable" and yet realistic items for offer than in years past.

I, too, wish for a middle ground where those who want the $1500 locomotive can have it.  I, on the other hand, want more of the $300-$500 with some of the cost effective technology in it.  This sector does seems to be shrinking in availability in my opinion.  I suspect with the demise of MTH O gauge, that trend may continue since they appeared, to me at least, to be the moderating factor in pricing and the provider of affordable, technologically based trains (think RailKing PS2/3).

Just my 2 cents...

I really think they can make all the $2500 trains they want, just make a few for the O gauge enthusiast. Something that can fit with my postwar stuff, and isn't a gimmick. Don't we have enough Polar Express already?

My concern is that the $2500 trains will hurt new people getting into the hobby. There are alternatives but if people don’t look further into used, Williams, Atlas others, new comers will be put off.  Say what you will regarding Menards model trains they are intro friendly. No engines yet.

Question: Wasn’t the reason for the train sets Lionel has sold for decades to get new people involved?

jmtc

I think this catalog actually has a pretty good selection for the budget-minded modeler (see page 64 and beyond).  Perhaps Lionel should do what MTH did and put the budget stuff first and keep the top-dollar stuff in the back of the catalog.  I think many (and perhaps some even in this thread) open the first few pages of the catalog, are blown away by sticker shock, and put it down without ever getting to the value-priced section.

Plenty of budget stuff if you want a gimmick train. Thomas, Toy Story, Frozen, Potter, Area 51, Star Trek, and on & on.

I agree with Woody.

BTW Jim --

1.) What specifically (not generically) are you looking for that is not there?  Specific roads? Steam or diesel? What kind of rolling stock?  There are starter sets, and there are mid-priced traditional-style items, maybe not the specifics you seek though.

2.) On the other hand you might like to see more traditional sized rather than scale items, and more conventional rather than command.  Is that true?

As Woody implies if you look in the Signature, or lately Big Book, catalogs you may be so overwhelmed by the number and type of offerings that you miss the good stuff that's in there.

Mike

As a Postwar/conventional operator, I totally agree and understand the sentiments.

But short of finding something you want in the latest catalogs, I put my hobby dollars towards Lionel PW, MPC, and the occasional Lionel Chief Plus/2.0 offerings. There is plenty enough of that out there!

@JimJohnson posted:

I got my first train in 1958. It was a Lionel 2056 Hudson, and I still run it to this day. It runs great. Along the way, I've accumulated some F3's, GG1's, and GP30's, and they all look great running on the small layout in my basement. I also have a Lionchief Berkshire and a GP7, and they look fine running along side my post war collection. What I see happening, is Lionel leaving the old traditional hobbyist behind. In the new catalog, I see literally dozens of new Steam locos and Diesels in the Legacy line. They look fantastic, if you have thousands to spend, and a huge layout with 72" curves to run them on. Of course you may as well consign your older trains to the shelf, because they will look silly running next to a 25" Mohawk loco. I get it, that Lionel is appealing to the scale hobbyist. They're willing to spend $2500 on a new Acela, or $1500 on a new Pacific. I think that's great, but us older guys still like an affordable(like under $500) O gauge train, with a real road name to run. A lot of us aren't interested in running a Star Trek or Area 51 train. My L&N GP7 from a few years ago, came with crew figures in the cab, smoke, electrcouplers, and rail sounds, and crew talk. The new catalog has a nice Chessie GP38, with "operating" couplers and a lighted cab?  I really like the KCS set, but I really don't need more Fasttrack. I guess all I'm saying is, Lionel, please don't leave the old hobbyist with a small layout behind. Thanks.

I don't think they did. For the traditional hobbyist with a small layout and not wanting to spend a huge amount of money, the new 2021 Lionel catalogue offers these in either Lionchief, Lionechief Plus or Lionchief Plus 2.0, at reasonable prices and not "gimmicky" :

Four (4) Baby K-4's

Four (4) RS-3's

Four (4) GP-7's

Thirteen (13) full train Sets

Two (2) Generals

Four (4)  0-8-0's

Four (4) U36b's

Four (4) GP-38's

That's thirty-nine (39) steamers, diesels or sets ranging in retail price from $550.00 down to $220.00 (and street prices cheaper). I'm no Lionel apologist, but I don't see how anyone can legitimately gripe that they have abandoned the traditional hobbyist with a small layout.

You beat me to it Richie.  There's still more "Traditionally Sized" non-licensed motive power today than there was 30 years ago... it's just buried between a much larger chunk of Scale and a huge pile of nonsensical licensed, Christmas, and Halloween junk.  

This just makes the "traditional" reader FEEL forgotten... when in fact there's plenty there.  You just need a rather sturdy strainer to find it.

I'd probably prefer to have a demo-targeted catalog for my tastes than a "Big Book" of stuff I don't care for that I have to wade through... but it is what it is.

Jon

thats why i use second hand market.personally i think the new stuff is awesome,yet there is a place for postwar,MPC era equipment.I love them all.One needs to be rich to afford the latest models.I love the smoothness of legacy engines.

Again, they need to do a better job of separating out their offerings.  Mixing in B&O GP7s and Kansas City Southern ES44s with Frozen and Area 51 trains is not the best choice for marketing their products in the best way.

But all the fictional "gimmick" stuff sells.  If it didn't sell, they wouldn't make it.  And if it draws more kids and families into the hobby, for that reason alone I can't see why anyone in their right mind would have a problem with it.  But separating it from the stuff for us "serious" modeler would be a good move.

True, and point taken. However, the GP-38's & U36B's with "operating couplers and illuminated cab" really don't compare to my L&N GP7 with smoke, cab figures, and electrocouplers, from a few years ago. It kinda looks like they cheapening some places. I guess I should shut up, and take what I can get. Thanks for the responses.

Jim, this forum is the place to speak up about concerns, questions, etc.  Should never feel like you should be quiet!

I think I must say in defense of Lionel though, your GP7 from a few years ago had an msrp of $329.99, whereas these U36Bs and GP38s have msrps of only $219.99 (yes, I had to look twice at that number, too).  The GP7 was LionChief Plus, and these new ones are just LionChief basic, hence the difference in price and features.  The RS3s and GP7s on pages 72 and 73 might be more in the range of what you're looking for feature wise.

If they really loved us, they would put ALCo trucks on those LionChief Plus 2.0 RS-3's...

Jon

My last purchase of a command engine was over ten years ago. Since then I've moved totally to post war. My roster now is 16 engines of which only four not made prior to 1957. Not against new stuff but , for me, it's not worth it. Heck, I even choose to run with the old post war transformers rather through my TIU. Agree with a previous post about appealing to young people and those with less discretionary income. Not everyone can afford a $500 engine let alone $1500.

As I have stated many times on this forum, O gauge/scale is a big tent with lots of options.  For me the only reason I got into O scale was after I discovered scale O and accurate models of the railroads I enjoy modeling and operating.  I have continuously been into trains since my first HO set at age 7 in 1976 but didn't discover O until 2003.  I do have lots of O trains of 50's vintage, but they tend to fall into the All-Nation, Walthers, and Athearn side of the hobby.

It is hard to define "young people" in this hobby anymore.  I know several 2 rail master modelers in their 20's-40's who mainly collect fine scale brass that I couldn't hope to afford.  I'm the youngest member of my TCA Division as far as I know and I'm 52 this year.   

The best part of the hobby is that there isn't a wrong way to do it as long as you enjoy what you are doing.

Is it me or does exaggeration seem to rule the roost here ?

I'm not sure about $500-$1,500 engines, but I know that for $338.00 street price you can get a brand new, good looking, well made RS-3 or GP-7 engine in a variety of liveries that can be operated in command mode, Bluetooth or conventionally with Voice Control, Railsounds, crew talk, fan-driven smoke, front and rear electro-couplers, dual motors, directional headlights, horn bell/whistle, cab light and crew figures that will run down to at least O-31.

If you want to run post-war, that's great and maybe you don't need or want all those features (there are lower priced options for those who don't), but I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that, when you account for inflation and cost of living, the current roster of engines is a much bigger bang than you would have ever received in the 1950's - 60's or any other previous decade and provides plenty of lower priced and feature driven options for the traditional hobbyist. 

@GG1 4877 posted:

It is hard to define "young people" in this hobby anymore.  I know several 2 rail master modelers in their 20's-40's who mainly collect fine scale brass that I couldn't hope to afford.  I'm the youngest member of my TCA Division as far as I know and I'm 52 this year.   

The best part of the hobby is that there isn't a wrong way to do it as long as you enjoy what you are doing.

Exactly.   There is no "Right" way to do this hobby.   Heck, I'm 57, and my  layout is Post War Style, and I still buy all the so called whimsical offerings, because that's what I like.   I have everything from Postwar loco, to LionChief, to Lionchief +, to TMCC, LEgacy, VisionLine, Railking and Premier.  I buy what I like and I never worry about what the other guys likes.

As far as prices:  One does not have to spend $1200+ on locos to get good stuff.  In the last several Lionel catalogs, there's been enough Lionchief and Lionchief + to give you a huge roster of motive power.

From the very beginning of this hobby, if you wanted the top line, scale, more prototypical stuff, you had to shell out more money.