Problems with two Lionel locomotives...

My experience with buying modern trains has been positive, for the most part. The only "lemon" that I have bought lately was the Frisco diesel switcher, which needed to be lubricated better. I usually buy from the less expensive end of the line. I do have a good number of four axle diesels, both Legacy and Lion Chief Plus. I do not have any really large steam engines. I stick to smaller engines because they do not overpower the layout and they negotiate my track better. Having said that, I do believe that Lionel needs to get a much better handle on quality control, even if that means working on trains after they get to this side of the ocean.

"It may be time to switch over to MTH as Lionel may go the way of Kline and Weaver..."

Your crystal ball may need factory alignment .

postwar and MPC......the way to go......

I didn't bother to cancel my last two preorders from 2016 and 2018 catalogs because it appears the orders never will be filled.  Even if Lionel gets its stuff together at some future date, my credit card likely will have expired.

What, me worry?

NS6770Fan posted:

 It may be time to switch over to MTH as Lionel may go the way of Kline and Weaver...

Unlikely.  Jim Weaver retired and K-Line had self-inflicted legal issues.

Rusty

I have never pre ordered products from Lionel so forgive my question.. But when you do preorder do you have to put money down when ordering? or do you pay in full  when the item is shipped?

"But when you do preorder do you have to put money down when ordering? or do you pay in full  when the item is shipped?"

For some dealers yes they charge a deposit. I personally do not in general do business with such dealers.  Dealers such as Charles Ro accept orders and bill when shipped.  Some smaller dealers feel they cannot bear the losses of placing orders that are then cancelled,  and charge a deposit of some sort.  I sympathize but will not do business that way. 

Likewise, dealers who will not stand behind sales with warranty service are a non-starter for me, if they insist I deal directly with Lionel on warranty repair instead of being the middleman.  So I'm sympathetic but puzzled why the original poster did not return the locomotive still under warranty to the dealer even though Lionel won't repair it directly.  The dealer assumes the responsibility for the warranty in such instances in most states, I'd guess.

Bart1 posted:

I have never pre ordered products from Lionel so forgive my question.. But when you do preorder do you have to put money down when ordering? or do you pay in full  when the item is shipped?

Depends my friend, most don't require anything upfront, but there are some that require full or partial during the pre-ordering.

ns1001 posted:

About to cancel $2300 of Lionel preorders - N&W J and NYC J3A. The reason being 1. Unable to get Lionel Legacy Diesels to smoke after the initial fill up of fluid. Can smell the smoke fluid but no smoke.  Am running under Legacy Cab1l/Base - 1l command set.  2. Bought new 6 months ago from a dealer a Polar Express (K4 pacific modernized). Ran good for 6 months but now it reads short  when ever put on the track. It originally was in the 2012 catalogue so Lionel will touch it. Think it would cost too much to have repaired. Just getting tired of wasting money.

 

I'm a pretty bid advocate of canceling pre-orders, especially if there's a track record of things not working properly out of the box as they should.  My intention isn't to leave my dealer with inventory that may or may not be sold, but I would rather save myself the headache of trying to fixing something that shouldn't need fixing right away, regardless of the reason.  Also to shell out hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars just to send something back for repair is insane.  Even then, the repair may not guarantee that the item will work properly - I've heard enough of those stories to last a lifetime.  

If you want to cancel some pre-orders, I say go ahead - eventually you're dealer will get over it, you'll save yourself a headache and you may find something else that may bring your even more joy in the process.

I have absolutely no experience in retail, are hobby shops required to buy/sell a set amount every year?

Tom

The set backs Lionel has had the past 2 years does cause some major concerns. When you wait for a year or longer then discover you have to send the lemon back to Lionel for repairs on the first day of operation you get a real bad feeling for Lionel preorders.

Before this thread goes down the wrong path, as these tend to do .....we need more information from the OP about his issues.....so far, the only the only locomotive that has complete information is the polar express engine that is 7 years old!!!....I’m sorry fellas! Parts fail, don’t matter who the manufacturer......what sort of  warranty did the OP discuss with his dealer? We don’t know....so, we should not speculate....these trains are very expensive, I’m not here to dispute that....I’m not here to dispute the OPs frustration.....some of you are quick to jump on the band wagon and don’t have all the facts......remember, this very forum is sponsored by the very company (companies) that some of you (not all) bash on a regular basis....I wouldn’t be surprised one bit if this thread gets deleted......yes, there are QC issues, but no company from toys to real cars isn’t immune from them.....to say certain issues is the demise of a certain company, that’s narrow minded thinking....and that’s what gets threads deleted...and rightfully so....I sympathize with OP for the issues he’s having, and it’s not right, and if he wants to cancel the rest of his orders, so be it....but perhaps his issues with the locomotives he has are just minor and simple...there’s a wealth of knowledge right here on the forum that might can help him....I can’t tell you how many new, right out the box locomotives had simple issues, like flooded smoke units, smoke units turned off, or simple things like those, that the owner wanted to throw in the towel and break out the extension cords......so, again instead of this becoming the negative waves thread, let’s see if we can help the OP get up and running....cause as he stated in his post, the pol-ex engine is out of warranty ....by like almost a decade............Pat

I haven't bought any new Lionel locomotives in almost fifteen years, don't need the headaches........  

Rusty Traque posted:

Unlikely.  Jim Weaver retired and K-Line had self-inflicted legal issues.

Rusty

An easy mistake to make, but Joe Hayter is the one who retired and thereby dissolved Weaver.

Jim Weaver had worked at Atlas, and unfortunately passed away a while back.

-Dave

I understand the frustration when stuff breaks. But assumptions are being made as to what's wrong without having the engines checked out.  the shorted polar Express could be simple broken wire. No one will know until the engine is opened and inspected.  as for the smoking diesels, if all your diesels fail to smoke after the initial fill, then it sounds like you may be doing something wrong. We need more I formation so we can help you. If you overfilled it, then it will not smoke.

Yes, lionel has made some mistakes but most of their stuff is reliable. I have engines from 1996 through current production. I've only made a few repairs to keep them running. All have been dependable. Friends I know who have mth have similar success.

The forum is a great place for help. Take a deep breath, give us more details and we can get you enjoying your trains again.

ns1001 posted:

About to cancel $2300 of Lionel preorders - N&W J and NYC J3A. The reason being 1. Unable to get Lionel Legacy Diesels to smoke after the initial fill up of fluid. Can smell the smoke fluid but no smoke. 

If you're interested in solving this problem, there are solutions.

I understand first hand about the hurt and disappointment when one opens the box and places the new Diesel or Steamer on the track and bingo, dead on arrival, or a few days later, problems. So, knowing Lionel, there fine service department, I do not worry, they have always taken care of my engines issues. I have purchased many VisionLine, TMCC, Legacy Engines, Some had issues right in the box, just after opening, and some running, Lionel always does a fabulous job repairing them. So, if you have an issue with an older engine, speak to your local repair shop, or call Lionel’s Customer Service, they will help you.  I would let your order remain with your dealer. I am fortunate, my dealer where I buy most of my trains, checks them out before I get them, yes, his price is a bit higher than our mail order dealers, but, he has a Family to. I commend Lionel, and the other manufacturers for making high end products for our enjoyment, it’s truly the best of times, good luck, Happy Railroading....

"It may be time to switch over to MTH as Lionel may go the way of Kline and Weaver..."

In truth, you probably have that one backwards.

According to management, Lionel had an excellent financial year in 2018 and MTH seems to slower and slower on deliveries.  Who knows?  They're both private and do not release sales figures.

My new Lionel purchases - some pre-ordered, others not - have generally been good, locs and all.  I did have a messed up LED on a Halloween witches tank accessory, though.  

Are you running these Lionel Legacy diesels in conventional mode, TMCC, or true Legacy. 

You might have the diesels not responding because they need additional commands.

The smoke units operate in different ways depending on the control system used. 

Andrew

What Andrew and GRJ said. Be patient and investigate, many of us have no issues with lionel products like rthomps notes.

I am running under Legacy Cab1l/Base - 1l command set. The K4 I talked about was new from the dealer and ran find for 6 months. Estimate it would cost at least $300 for some one to fix it assuming a board replacement. I have tried needle applicator, using the plastic applicator, and blowing down the stack. MTH diesels always smoke. I hate too  cancel the 2 Lionel steamers because they are two engines I always wanted. Well got to late fall to decide.

Run the diesels in conventional mode for 10 minutes to see if they operate differently. 

Andrew

Several of my friends have had the problem of adding smoke fluid to their engines, and then little or no smoke. Apparently, the smoke fluid can form a liquid bubble that blocks the smoke unit tube (surface tension of the oil??? allows the formation). Some blow down the stack, others use a toothpick and "gently" put the toothpick down the stack till it won't go in any further - let gravity do the work, don't force the toothpick down. Both of these methods attempt to break the liquid bubble. 

ns1001 posted:

I am running under Legacy Cab1l/Base - 1l command set. The K4 I talked about was new from the dealer and ran find for 6 months. Estimate it would cost at least $300 for some one to fix it assuming a board replacement. I have tried needle applicator, using the plastic applicator, and blowing down the stack. MTH diesels always smoke. I hate too  cancel the 2 Lionel steamers because they are two engines I always wanted. Well got to late fall to decide.

I think you should cancel the engines. It might be better for your health.. less stress. 

"The K4 I talked about was new from the dealer and ran find for 6 months. Estimate it would cost at least $300 for some one to fix it assuming a board replacement. "

Should be under warranty no?  I'd check with Lionel when their repair services are back up.  This is clearly a situation where the moral and legal issues are on your side.  If that brings no relief.... check your state laws as the dealer may be responsible when the manufacturer refuses to back up a written warranty, which is as I recall one year.  There is no mileage in them turning you down if you have a legal warranty.  Stuff fails.  Sony, Toyota, Cuisinart stuff fails.  A pain in the you know what, but a reality.

I am rather new to all this pre-order business.  

I pre-ordered a Lionel Legacy F7 A/A set last year from my LHS, who I try very hard to support.   He cannot stock these (rather expensive) products, being a small one-man shop trying to continue business selling full-line hobby products.  O Scale locomotives (at any level) simply do not appeal to the majority of his customers, and the inventory would not "turn" near fast enough to make sense. 

So I ordered the Legacy set- first one "new"for me, in April or so.   It was not perfect- and Lionel paid for shipping the set back for service, repaired it, and returned it in about 10 days.  It now works perfectly, and has turned out to be a favorite.  But the experience was NOT what a customer expects from the "best Lionel offers".  

Truly- I think that any distributor who relies on outside companies located far away, and that cannot have people they employ on site to manage the process is at the mercy of his manufacturers.  You get in bed with a Communist country- you have to deal with language, but more significantly- BUSINESS practices that do not follow what we expect in the USA. 

Bring the process home!  One step at a time.  Start with the specialty, less price sensitive products, and over time a greater share of the line.  Lionel Chesterfield MI made good products that still run (now) 30 years later.

ns1001 posted:

About to cancel $2300 of Lionel preorders - N&W J and NYC J3A. The reason being 1. Unable to get Lionel Legacy Diesels to smoke after the initial fill up of fluid. Can smell the smoke fluid but no smoke.  Am running under Legacy Cab1l/Base - 1l command set.  2. Bought new 6 months ago from a dealer a Polar Express (K4 pacific modernized). Ran good for 6 months but now it reads short  when ever put on the track. It originally was in the 2012 catalogue so Lionel will touch it. Think it would cost too much to have repaired. Just getting tired of wasting money.

 

I have had pretty good luck with Lionel.  Only one engine had to go back for service.  You have ordered a   COUPLE OF VERY NICE ENGINES, I think the  chances of them working properly is greater than the opposite.

I haven't had much experience with MTH lately in O gauge because it seem they are not really offering anything new ( repeat the same stem engines over and over again).  I do have a few of their HO models which run very well from the start up.

Good luck!

I would not put down a deposit at all, period, end of discussion. I lived through the  Lionel's first attempt to bring back the Hudson in 1984, where they moved all the tooling to Mexico with the intention of manufacturing them there. That crew was not up to the task. I had one ordered through a company called High Country Brass in Denver, Colorado. Well, Lionel delivered on about 25% of the orders. The owner of High Country Brass ended up going to prison because he did not refund the deposits. That situation was about as bad as it gets. 

I have excellent performance from three Lionel engines,  as an aside I did have the electronics removed.  However, being my favorite engines they are all run whenever the layout is operated.   Both my MTH and Lionel power are equally dependable when run in conventional.  Sorry, but I just have absolutely no patience for failures.

I had the same smoke issue on my Amtrak F40 and it just needed some wick adjustment. Open up the smoke unit, take out the wicking, and put it back making sure it's feeding through the top of the element. While it's open soak the wicking with some smoke fluid. Smoked like a champ after that.

why not sell them on forum "as is" and try some other models.

ns1001 posted:

2. Bought new 6 months ago from a dealer a Polar Express (K4 pacific modernized). Ran good for 6 months but now it reads short  when ever put on the track. It originally was in the 2012 catalogue so Lionel will touch it. Think it would cost too much to have repaired. Just getting tired of wasting money. 

If you would like to donate it to River City 3 Railers we'll pay shipping, and get it repaired. I can assure you it will be well utilized at our displays during the Christmas season.

In another thread I complaint about my $1,600.00 Niagara not working properly, I call Lionel three times in order to get a RA and I was told to wait until the first week of August, very disappointment with Lionel, I do not think that I am going to pre-order and expend so much money to put up with another frustration

Nope.  I am a glut for punishment! I ordered 2 J1a in different numbers and a NYC Hudson with a long haul tender!

I don't think I could miss out on all this action.

Besides, if it was not for the latest PA ID setting fiasco, I wouldn't see my favorite LHS  owner but once every 3 months. 

Landsteiner posted:

"It may be time to switch over to MTH as Lionel may go the way of Kline and Weaver..."

Your crystal ball may need factory alignment .

Lol! If Lionel goes, this market segment will go as well. Non of the other guys holds a candle to the name and marketing of this brand. 

Lionel is the 3rd rail hobby for better or worse. Guess we have to face reality like it or not.

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

Landsteiner posted:

"It may be time to switch over to MTH as Lionel may go the way of Kline and Weaver..."

Your crystal ball may need factory alignment .

Lol! If Lionel goes, this market segment will go as well. Non of the other guys holds a candle to the name and marketing of this brand. 

The Lionel brand is safe even if the current owner dumps the company. There is always some dreamer out there that thinks they can make a buck off of the name like the current owner assumed.

My experience, which is limited, with recent modern Lionel has been positive so far, even with one locomotive I had problems with.

My first LC+ engine, a Jersey Central Pacific steamer that I love (it's my Blue Comet), that I  bought last year, stopped chuffing shortly after I bought it. It was well within the warranty period. Lionel was great about fixing it promptly and paying for all shipping so the repair did not cost me a penny. 

A couple of months later, the same engine developed another problem. At the moment, I can't remember what it was. Again, it was well within the warranty period and Lionel made the repair quickly and totally free of charge. 

I subsequently bought 2 more LC+ locomotives from my LHS. No problems whatsoever with them.

I view the 1 year warranty period as an opportunity to get the kinks out of what I purchase, free of charge.

My sense about new Lionel, and I may be wrong, is that a lot more can go wrong with Vision Line than LC+, that for the most part Lionel is good about repairs within the 1 year warranty period, and it is important to meticulously follow the directions when running new Lionel. I have a very good LHS, Tom's Trains in Ardsley, NY, and I talk to Tom, the owner, about his experience with these engines, follow his advice, and I read every word of the instructions, and follow them to the letter. One more thing: the advice offered on this Forum is very helpful to me.

IMO, LC+ is a ground breaking product and cutting edge technologically.  I think it will keep Lionel alive and well for a long time. It's also affordable, very user friendly, and fun to operate, IMO. 

Now for something inspirational. Imagine if new Lionel came with a Lifetime warranty. IMO, that is something Joshua Lionel Cowan would consider doing.

Lionel, are you listening? Arnold

Arnold D. Cribari posted:

1. My experience, which is limited, with recent modern Lionel has been positive so far, even with one locomotive I had problems with.

2. I view the 1 year warranty period as an opportunity to get the kinks out of what I purchase, free of charge.

1. That's a good thing...although the percentage of issues you've had so far (one out of three) seems rather high.

2. Shouldn't that process ("get the kinks out") be done by the manufacturer/importer prior to the model's release to you, the buying public?

Just asking...

Mark in Oregon