Advice

Much of the damage I see here and in many other threads can be laid at the doorstep of poor packaging.  I get quite literally, hundreds of shipments a year.  If I can shake the package and feel the item moving inside, I open it expecting likely damage.  Sometimes the shipper gets lucky, but many times I find pieces broken off, etc.

When something is packed, you should be able to shake the package in all axis and not feel anything moving inside.  If something is moving, the packaging is poorly done.

Obviously, if the passenger car was supported by the antenna and it took a jolt from the gentle shipping folks, that would likely break it.  Another part of proper packaging is not to support an item by a cheesy little plastic trim part!

Proper packaging will cure a majority of the shipping damage we see in new or used items.

@Rich Melvin posted:

You are all blaming Lionel for these problems. What about the shipper? All of this damage could have been caused by rough handling during shipping.

Rough handling or not, the problem starts with Lionel's packaging.  I've received may items from other manufacturers, delivered by the same shipping carriers, and nothing is broken, so it seems to me that Lionel needs to re-think their packaging.

@KOOLjock1 posted:

I'm just excited that someone here knows how to spell "advice" correctly!  Lionel should replace everything just for that!

Jon

LOL. Love it! Someone must have advised him how to spell advice.

And of course, we don't want to see anything break because the UPS truck had to brake hard.

Things could come loose in the hard stop, and then we would lose them.

Stepping down off the soapbox now...

Just a few of my English language spelling and usage peeves. 

@Rich Melvin posted:

LOL. Love it! Someone must have advised him how to spell advice.

And of course, we don't want to see anything break because the UPS truck had to brake hard.

Things could come loose in the hard stop, and then we would lose them.

Stepping down off the soapbox now...

Just a few of my English language spelling and usage peeves. 

This message brought to you by the O Guage Railroading site admin.

But back to topic, if it can't survive shipping, it's not a viable product.  Don't just stuff it in something "close enough" and cross fingers nothing breaks !  Obviously they've failed for this engine type.

-Dave

There were quite a few Built to Order units offered in the last catalog.I was tempted by a lot of them. Here is my question; If Lionel receives 1000 pre-orders for a given locomotive, how many out of that 1000 will have some sort of problem? Five? ten? 243? I wish someone from Lionel would weigh in and talk about how big the problem is (or is not) and what is being done to solve it. If we got some straight talk, that would go a long way toward calming the masses, so to speak. 

IMO, that's not something you'll ever hear from any manufacturer.  In addition, they really don't know.  Some releases come out pretty clean, others are like the Mogul, a disaster that they finally recall and apparently scrap.

@tncentrr posted:

There were quite a few Built to Order units offered in the last catalog.I was tempted by a lot of them. Here is my question; If Lionel receives 1000 pre-orders for a given locomotive, how many out of that 1000 will have some sort of problem? Five? ten? 243? I wish someone from Lionel would weigh in and talk about how big the problem is (or is not) and what is being done to solve it. If we got some straight talk, that would go a long way toward calming the masses, so to speak. 

If it's five or ten, I need to start buying a lot more lottery tickets!

I'm sure revealing what you describe would be a fire-able offense (probably considered proprietary, competition sensitive, etc....), so I would not count on ever seeing such details openly shared with consumers. (for any business, not just Lionel)

-Dave

Shame on Lionel.  Yes, shame on one of our sponsors.  The Lionel SD-70 broken step problem has been occurring since at least 2018.  The packaging "upgrade" that preceded the production addressed some issues but it left the locomotives vulnerable to step breakage.  This has nothing to do with the shipping companies.  Good luck buying intact pilots from Lionel for 2018 forward and not for lack of original inventory.  The SD-70 has got to be one of the highest cash flow items in their Standard O locomotive product line.  Just look at how many variations they have made.

What is disappointing is that Customer Service knows about it but where is engineering to step in and solve the problem.  Maybe package engineering is beneath the product engineers at Concord.  However, if they don't get their heads wrapped around this soon more and more of us are going to walk away.    

Plenty more of the same right here:  New SD-70ACe damaged

Wow, wouldn't want to see Lionel founder over this; or see them go fishing...

Come on guys, flounder?

I've never had a bad MTH delivery. Yeah, there is/was the dreaded 5 volt electronics failure. But, that was primarily due to inferior electrolytic capacitors on the market at that time. I bought 2 Lionel Legacy locomotives from 2014 production and I am absolutely delighted with both. Then I pre-ordered the quasi Legacy 0-8-0, followed by the defective Mogul. With MTH leaving the market, I want to be a Lionel customer, but I have no faith. My future locomotive orders will be Atlas O (if they ever get locomotive production in gear) and 3rd rail.

@Steims posted:

However, if they don't get the head wrapped around this soon more and more of us are going to walk away.    

Plenty more of the same right here:  New SD-70ACe damaged

And go where now?  Unfortunately with the demise of MTH, we are running out of choices.

...IMHO they have a dearth of packaging attention-to-detail.  

I would dismiss the loose/damaged journal cap as 'just one of those things'.   They'll always happen, occasionally...hopefully seldom.  That Lionel wouldn't have a pill-bottle supply of those to ship one first class to an aggrieved customer is puzzling, to be sure.

But the busted steps....the observation antenna?  "C'mon, man!"  Where's the Packaging-101 horse sense about those situations???  

Those details in and of themselves have no mass to speak of.  If details like that are provided the freedom to ride in a package without any possible contact with surrounding material....rigid foam, taut clearwrap,  vacuum-formed shells with no clearance pockets, etc...there's minimal chance that shipping stresses should occur to the point of part breakage.   Parts that shake loose without 'breakage' due to inadequate press-fit or adhesive?....that's another thing entirely, and I, for one would give it a 'tsk-tsk' and take care of it myself.  

Here's an idea, though...  Why not return to packaging techniques that folks like Kato learned years ago....for their far less massive N-scale products??  Example: Observation car antenna.  Simply package the antenna separately in a sealed package with any instructions for assembly to the car.   No, Lionel won't reduce the price.  Yes, you're going to have to acquire some basic skills along the road to happiness in this hobby...or find someone who has them.

The upside to this age-old idea is that this fragile detail doesn't arrive broken, thereby causing an EKG image akin to a cross-section of the Himalayas.

The downside to requiring a DIY assembly at the product's final resting point is that, well, glue goobers may abound which, at normal viewing angles, will become the embarrassing new topic of discussion at your next club meeting, result in 50%...or more...lower resale value of the car on Ebay, expose your kids to blue language for the first time (yeah, right.), and result in an EKG image akin to a cross-section of the Himalayas....inescapable in this hobby.  But it'll be YOUR fault.....not Lionel's.

Atlas HO also comes to mind.  I remember in my dark, dark HO days that their Geeps and Alco hood units arrived in their package with those incredible finely molded handrails in separate flat packages safely tucked under the foam block.  Again, DIY.  Kato also delivered their whisper-quiet HO SD's that way...handrails in a special pocket carved into the bottom of the foam block to ensure there would be...No breakage from shipping!  Brilliant, folks!

Meanwhile, liquor sales will be brisk, confessional booths will be available...if not busy, and the Forum will welcome your thoughts on the matter...typically....maybe.........whatever, in 'moderation'.

Besides, after 'playing' with our trains...they're "toys", remember...for a while, all those parts will be trashed, anyway.  Missing roof overhangs on Lionel's molded plastic PW cabooses, missing marker lights on die cast PW boiler fronts of steam engines...among a myriad of other common traits of fragility...are proof-positive of that.

(See, Mike Wolf?  THIS is why you're retiring...isn't it?....really?  I know it would be reason enough for me!)

Peace and safety.

KD

When Hallmark Models* imported HO scale brass models of Cotton Belt  4-4-2's that had been made in Korea, Miss Hall refused the entire shipment because they wouldn't run.  NorthWest Short Line picked them up and offered the models for ca. $89.00, each, as is, no returns!  They have become rare collectables as a result there haven't been any SSW Atlantic manufactured in brass or plastic since.  

Item: One would expect Lionel to offer rebates on damaged models since it appears the problem is internal and isn't shipping related.  I wonder if the broken step problem would exist had the models been Proudly Made in the U.S.A. instead of over there, over there?

*Hallmark Models were marketed by Bobbye Hall, owner of Hall's Hobby House, which was located in Dallas, TX.

one word  FRUSTRATING. We can get angry about major flaws but its difficult to get too excited about minor cosmetic and easily corrected ones.

Ask yourself; I paid $1500 say for a steam engine, It came with a broke off pipe. what's the value of the engine with the broken pipe . . .$1,499.? or $0.0 ?

Perfection is just a word not a reality for handmade toys. And I do think Lionel needs better QA and package design.

With any mass produced and complex assembled toys attaching hundreds of small parts by gluing is bound to have variations that result in too much or not enough adhesion applied or broken tabs from assembling too quickly to make quotas. Again frustrating not excusing!

The fancier the model with all the tiny flourishes and fiddly bits the more likely the potential for damage due to *fill in the blank*. 

Yes, they should be able to package them so they don’t get damaged in shipping. It still happens, regardless of the packaging, to x percentage of models.

If you want to have 100% perfect models with zero damage you have to lower your standards and buy products with a reduced chance of possible defects. Pre-war and Postwar trains were infinitely simpler than most of the display case queens we see today.

I worked around the manufacturing of miniatures and you can expect some percentage of problems. If that’s unacceptable then explore other aspects of the hobby to lower your stress level.

Premium prices demand premium customer service. I would reach out to Lionel again and try to take it up with someone else. Then again that’s counter to the roughly 21 years worth of history of the forum’s average user but that’s just my observation.

Good luck!

Jim

Drop testing needs to be performed. The results need to be analyzed and adjustments to the packaging need to be made if required. Additionally, all packaging material specifications relative to foam density and mold shrinkage, as well as cardboard wall thickness, burst strength, etc. must be specified and compliance to these specs must be enforced. These items travel about 7000 miles from China to NC..........If these tests and specifications are not in place there will be failures. I would trust Lionel has a packaging engineering group or review process? 

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

IMO, that's not something you'll ever hear from any manufacturer.  In addition, they really don't know.  Some releases come out pretty clean, others are like the Mogul, a disaster that they finally recall and apparently scrap.

I'm sure they don't really know, but more importantly, it's something they can't control.  When you cede production to a 3rd party you are, more or less, at their mercy.  This is the great argument against out-sourcing (of anything).  Do you want your business in hands of others who are (likely) less invested in success than you?

George

refused the entire shipment because they wouldn't run. 

 

I'm not sure that the current business arrangements with over-C's manufacturers would allow this financially.  It's my understanding that nowadays it's strictly "No tickee, no washee" before putting the whole lot into a shipping container for the next step homeward....based on approval of one-or-a-handful final production samples.  IOW, payment up front.

Of course, who really knows?...or who would divulge specific agreements by manufacturer/importer?

Oh, and BTW...I doubt production samples receive the same level of packaging/shipping that the production lot will incur.  Get real.

I agree with George⇑....but I doubt it'll happen.  As they say in 'our' language: "That train left the station LONG ago!"

KD

Utterly unacceptable— as someone mentioned old Josh and his Italian crew are spinning in their graves—