Maybe this is old news now, but just received a email from Lionel the AF 2-8-4's are cancelled from lack of orders and tooling cost increases.
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Well now we will see guys detailing and TMCC conversions of the Berks we have.
http://www.tuveson.com/Berk/burk.html
Carl
To confirm this I called Lionel. Yes they are dead!!
Since I write for the S Gaugian I am going to do some calling to find out more. My earlier call was to their help desk and I didn't talk with a decision maker. I now have a call in to Ryan Kunkle to get more specifics.
Oh, well. That's a pity.
Reallocating the money I set aside for mine to the GDD passenger cars.
Rusty
eBay was hosting a sudden spurt of Flyer Chief Berkshires for sale, and my guess was that the original owners had decided to upgrade to the Legacy version announced for this year and scheduled for delivery in December according to Lionel's shipping schedule. I suspect that there were a great many orders for the Legacy Berkshire. A finely detailed Legacy Berkshire for $500 MSRP was too good to be true, and apparently Lionel realized this some time ago; but, as with the mechanical reefer from a few years back, Lionel didn't think it important enough to notify customers who had ordered them. When the news for 2019 is a rerun of U33Cs reusing the original paint masks and changing only colors for a whopping $600 each, a $500 Legacy steam locomotive was too good a deal even if the orders were substantial.
Lionel should have had enough respect for the S scale community to either: 1) communicate that prices may have to be increased beyond what was advertised in their catalogue because of external influences or even a mistake in accounting, or 2) make some announcement that the production run may have to be cancelled because of lack of orders (if that were actually true). The worst thing they could have done was to announce before the expected delivery that they had cancelled the project months before, without notice. Lionel seems to make the worst choices.
Looks like I will be sending my FlyerChief Berkshire to Carl for upgrade.
I will be letting Ryan Kunkle know at the upcoming York meet my negative reaction to this decision. I also suspect that the uncertainty caused by the trade war played some part in this development.
Mike
this sucks!
i wonder what the order amounts were
I don't think we'll ever know how many preorders there were. That's one of those nifty little secrets companies like to keep.
Are tariffs playing into this? Maybe, but we haven't heard (at least not yet) of cancellations in the 3-rail O Scale line where prices were already much higher.
I'm going to speculate that the Berkshires were simply under-priced and they probably were going sell at a loss.
Looking at the CAD drawings previously posted by Ryan, it was pretty clear that the boiler was no mere modification of the FlyerChief Berk. As I see it, the boiler and quite possibly the tender were going to need all new tooling, along with possibly some significant changes to the FlyerChief frame, assuming its reuse. Add in tooling and labor for the added details, also.
This was going to be a Legacy model with detailing level coming close to or exceeding the Y3 and yet it was priced the same as the last run of FlyerChief Northerns, which display far less in detail and complexity. We all were shocked and overjoyed by the $499.99 MSRP for the Berkshire, along with a couple of "I told you so's" thrown in.
If Lionel were to announce the price would have to rise by 30%-40% to compensate for whatever, there would likely have been a flood of cancellations, to say nothing of nasty accusations of price gouging. Realistically, the MSRP for the Berkshire should have been around 800-900 dollars.
As far as comparison's the the cancellation of the 57' mechanical reefers, the reefer cancellation announcement happened the day they were supposed to be delivered. The Legacy Berks weren't due until December, so the decision to cancel doesn't appear last minute.
So, am I disappointed the Legacy Berk has been canceled? Yes. Am I going to worry further about it? No.
Rusty
Attachments
It doesn't bother me, I am going to upgrade my two Berks after retirement. Grind off the handrails, a little custom paint, add some details. I love them, why won't I?
I have communicated with Ryan via email. His response is below.
While I am disappointed, I can understand the business decision. Let's hope that they can develop a new steam engine soon and have orders meet tooling and production costs.
_________________________________
Bill,
Got your message but don’t have time to return your call today. The Legacy Berk run was cancelled for the reasons outlined to the dealers. Tooling costs came in much higher than anticipated and when spread across the order numbers the cost of production was prohibitive. We’ve looked into other alternatives over the past several months and ultimately had to come to this decision.
Thank you,
Ryan
_________________
Ryan Kunkle
Director of Production
___________________
From: billstrains [mailto:billstrains@aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: Berks
Ryan,
Did the tariff situation cause the price to increase? If so, have other items been cancelled for the same reason?
Thanks,
Bill
_______________________
No. This had nothing to do with tariffs. It is exactly what I said – too much tooling, too little orders.
Ryan Kunkle
Director of Production
This decision while disappointing was more likely predicated on too low an announced price (as described above) potentially exacerbated by low pre-orders along with a shrinking S market than anything. Observe -- new box cars for $80 (are you kidding, but more evidence of supply and demand), an EXC condition large motor 313 is valued at $208 in the 2019 Greenberg guide while in 2013 it was $288 (a 28% decrease). Imagine 5 years from now. There are simply fewer S-gaugers now than there used to be and fewer still over the course of the foreseeable future. Combine that with an increasing number of used trains going into the market and less new trains sales potential. So I'm not surprised.
Unfortunately, this doesn't bode well for the scale people. They clammered loudly for scale product and didn't support it enough to bring it to market. Can't blame the manufacturers for that.
Francine posted:Unfortunately, this doesn't bode well for the scale people. They clammered loudly for scale product and didn't support it enough to bring it to market. Can't blame the manufacturers for that.
"Scale people" would want locomotives with code 110 wheels, or at least availability of conversion wheels. Neither of those were promised or on the horizon for the Berkshire. So, don't go blaming them. Scale conversions of the Y3 (no longer available) was pretty much a one time deal by an outside third party. Guys with code 100 track aren't going to buy a locomotive that won't run on their track.
BTW. Where were all the Flyer people that wanted a Legacy steam locomotive?
What this doesn't bode well for is the possibility of any new Flyer steam from Lionel.
Rusty
Francine posted:Unfortunately, this doesn't bode well for the scale people. They clammered loudly for scale product and didn't support it enough to bring it to market. Can't blame the manufacturers for that.
I don't believe they offered it in a scale version. Hi-rail only.
My opinion is if Lionel had priced the Legacy Berks between $700 and $900 retail they may have made it to production.
I wrote Ryan one last question asking if the project would be revisited in the future. His answer was long, but my feeling was he was saying not likely. I even suggested the price was low. It seems they have tried reintroducing a cancelled product and the results have not been good.
When the FlyerChief Berk came out there were lots of complaints here and other places from guys wanting Legacy and lots of detail the FlyerChief didn't have. These complaints were loud and persistent. Lionel gave them the unit they wanted and at a great price. I wonder if the complainers ordered the Legacy. I have two of the FlyerChief Berks and I ordered a Legacy unit.
Lionel had two runs from the FlyerChief Berks and my guess is that when a new steam engine comes out again it will be a FlyerChief engine with the Berk's level of detail.
I ordered the Nickel Plate from Charles Ro in early March. When I saw the level of detail planned for the Berkshire, I was almost as excited as when I watched these monsters shake my bones as they stormed through an intersection near my home when I was a kid. Then when the 2019 catalogue appeared with the U33C rerun at $600, my suspicions rose. I still believe someone in accounting messed up with cost calculations, but I would still have kept the order even if the final price rose to $750. Now I have to figure what to buy for my kids to give me this Christmas. It won't be Lionel.
Francine posted:Unfortunately, this doesn't bode well for the scale people. They clammered loudly for scale product and didn't support it enough to bring it to market. Can't blame the manufacturers for that.
A scale version wasn't offered, so there was nothing they could support. Not offering a scale version is part of the problem. Maybe not a large number, but more would have sold if one had been offered.
What a disappointment. I was really looking forward to this November delivery.
I too would have paid more. My order with Ro would have been just as quick had the tag been $700.
Francine posted:Unfortunately, this doesn't bode well for the scale people. They clammered loudly for scale product and didn't support it enough to bring it to market. Can't blame the manufacturers for that.
Nope. As has already been mentioned, there wasn't a scale wheel version offered. I ordered one...what a shame it wasn't supported by more S modelers.
Jeff C
Rusty Traque posted:BTW. Where were all the Flyer people that wanted a Legacy steam locomotive?
I had ordered 2 so I'm pretty bummed. The price point definitely didn't sound right so it's not that surprising. Glad I didn't dump my Flyerchief Erie Berk!
Had one on order in addition to the 2 flyerchiefs I already had. Must have been too many people satisfied with previously purchased Flyerchiefs.
Rich
richabr posted:Must have been too many people satisfied with previously purchased Flyerchiefs.
Rich
I would agree with that statement.
The F/C Berk captures the look of the Nickle Plate Berk quite well. The "Good Enough" rule of thought. The one I tested ran well and the F/C control system was easy to use and provided control superior to conventional AC. I'm sure the average person would be satisfied with that.
It also looks pretty good hauling scale-detailed freight cars:
Plus, one of the things that worked against the Legacy model (IMHO,) it was as cataloged using the FlyerChief images, showing no visible differences between Legacy and FlyerChief.
Rusty
Attachments
They should have made Legacy to begin with. I was buying these as well but I also had the Flyer chief versions and it was difficult to own both for many people. In the future if Lionel wants to maximize sales they need to be smarter. Come out with the top of the line first then produce the cheaper version.
Rocco
I have 2 Flyer Chief Berks I'm happy with. I have/had a Legacy Berk on order. If I had known Lionel would actually catalog a Legacy Berk, I would have held off on the second FC Berk, and ordered 2 Legacy Berks, at the too good to be true price. Probably just one at $700.
Mike
I didn’t pre-order a Legacy version simply because I had ordered two of the FC Berkshires when they were advertised as having separately applied boiler handrails and other details, then Lionel switched the specs shortly after my order went in and the shop I dealt with wouldn’t refund my deposit if I cancelled, even though at that time, the FC Berkshires were not supposed to be BTO. That’s when I decided I would not pre-order anything made by Lionel ever again.
Fool me once, shame on you...
Bill in FtL
As far as I can tell, the F/C Berks were never cataloged with separately applied handrails.
While there was a lot of back-and-forth speculation here about the handrails when first announced, none of the catalogs from 2015 (where the separate sale Berks debuted) and later indicate separate handrails on the F/C version.
The no refund policy is the dealer's doing, not Lionel's. None of the dealers I've dealt with ever required a deposit from me. Only the brass builders like PBL and River Raisin require deposits due to the extremely low production runs and custom nature of their businesses.
Rusty
I am done with Lionel.
Bob
Although BTO may seem a valid way forward from Lionel’s perspective, it seems that from a consumer need it is very black or white as if something will get produced or not.
Would it not be of value to both sides if Lionel announced which specific items were short of the minimum production run and announce if they get ‘X’ many additional orders then it can be good to go? A win win for both sides.
It just seems a bit clinical at the moment on how decisions are made to run an item into production and leaves people disappointed.
Ukaflyer posted:Although BTO may seem a valid way forward from Lionel’s perspective, it seems that from a consumer need it is very black or white as if something will get produced or not.
Would it not be of value to both sides if Lionel announced which specific items were short of the minimum production run and announce if they get ‘X’ many additional orders then it can be good to go? A win win for both sides.
It just seems a bit clinical at the moment on how decisions are made to run an item into production and leaves people disappointed.
The question then becomes how long to keep the order extension open. A week? A month? 3-6 months? A year? I would guess the Berks were quite a bit more than being a couple of orders short to start production. It's pretty obvious that not one bit of steel was cut yet for molds, so they wouldn't have shown up this year anyway. And with the failure of Mega-Tracks, people are probably pretty gun-shy about taking risks at the Circle L Ranch.
Companies cost every product manufactured in design, material and labor out to the fraction of cent and the numbers have to add up to allow for a profit. Where I worked the anticipated sales of our industrial instruments were part of the calculation for production, and not for just one production run.
I'm going to guess at 500 bucks each MSRP, Lionel was going to have to sell a lot more Legacy Berks than all the FlyerChief Berks combined to approach a profitable number. Of course, Lionel could've always announced a 200-300 dollar price increase and wait for those complaints to roll in...
I'm also going to guess, the 80-85% of the S market wasn't too excited about the Legacy Berks. As of this posting, there's absolutely been NO nention about the cancellation on S-Trains Yahoo or S Trains-io. I don't recall much chatter, if any, over there when the Legacy versions were first announced, either.
Rusty
Rusty,
with regards to how long would you keep an extension open for, I personally would say three months is not unreasonable, especially if the winning line is not far away.
Lionel could network with dealers to drum up extra orders, create a page on the Lionel website specifically for this so customers can see the the progress of future products and see what the situation is.
It’s just an idea, if you don’t ask, you don’t get.
When I open the Lionel website, Products dropdown, then click on AF there is a prominent Flyerchief promo but no mention of Legacy. It might help if Legacy was added there with a direct link to S gauge Legacy engines like they have for FlyerChief.
banjoflyer posted:Just got off the phone with Charles Ro.
The S gauge Legacy Berkshires are cancelled.
They should remove them from their website. You can still order one...
FlyerRich posted:banjoflyer posted:Just got off the phone with Charles Ro.
The S gauge Legacy Berkshires are cancelled.
They should remove them from their website. You can still order one...
It would be really interesting to know how their order for the Legacy Berks compared with previous AF orders, don't even need numbers, just what they think about the cancellation relative to demand they saw. For example orders were: strong, weak, robust, last one out turn off lights.....
Mike
This news is disappointing but, oh well, this frees up some cash for TMCC upgrades I was holding off on. I actually have more motive power than I need. Thank you Lionel for making this decision for me.
Ray
You guys should go back and read what Ryan Kunkle told be at the beginning of this thread. Here it is again from the email he sent me.
_______________________________
Bill,
Got your message but don’t have time to return your call today. The Legacy Berk run was cancelled for the reasons outlined to the dealers. Tooling costs came in much higher than anticipated and when spread across the order numbers the cost of production was prohibitive. We’ve looked into other alternatives over the past several months and ultimately had to come to this decision.
Thank you,
Ryan
____________________________
These were not BTO, as someone suggested, and there was around 6 months to order one. This was not on Lionel. The market just didn't order enough to make it affordable for Lionel. So in affect it is on us.
Lionel does not exist to make us miserable. We do it to ourselves.
Wow… That explains why I couldn't find them anywhere this weekend. I wanted to order a couple extras. This is what keeps me from staying with S as my main modeling scale. You just have no idea IF or WHEN anything will get made. What huge bummer.
I for one refuse to feel any guilt for only ordering one Legacy Berk. The scale flounders for many reasons, but the bottom line for Lionel, MTH, and others is pretty simple--if you don't make it, people won't buy it.
Jeff C
Roundhouse Bill posted:You guys should go back and read what Ryan Kunkle told be at the beginning of this thread.
Why? We already read it. What guys are you referring to?
dkdkrd posted:leikec posted:... the bottom line for Lionel, MTH, and others is pretty simple--if you don't make it, people won't buy it.
Jeff C
As relates to the "bottom line" of a business and production choices, if people won't buy it, you don't make it.
That's pretty simple, too.
KD
Certainly it is...but on the other hand it isn't as if it's a secret that S scale is a small market.
Perhaps S scale isn't viable under any circumstances, but it was immediately obvious to me when this locomotive was announced that something was weird about the price point. Anyone who follows the industry at all would have been skeptical of the math underlying the pricing--just look at Rapido's pricing on their HO scale Royal Hudson by comparison. Now think about their probable production forecasts versus the most optimistic possible outcome for a Legacy S scale steam loco...
If an industry outsider like me could see the problem you'd think that the bean counters at Lionel would have noticed right away.
Jeff C
It is a shame, I would settle for a Flyerchief NKP Berk if it had a Mars light. They cancel stuff like this but yet make trash like Mega Trax. Someone at the Circle L ranch needs to be fired and a proper model railroader instead of a college bred bean counter brought in. If they want to the scale to grow, then better and consistant support is needed.
Ok...guess I killed off this thread...
Jeff C
I spoke too soon...
Jeff C
artfull dodger posted:It is a shame, I would settle for a Flyerchief NKP Berk if it had a Mars light. They cancel stuff like this but yet make trash like Mega Trax. Someone at the Circle L ranch needs to be fired and a proper model railroader instead of a college bred bean counter brought in. If they want to the scale to grow, then better and consistant support is needed.
They don't care about growing the scale. They will sell anything they can make a profit on. Of course that is good for business and the bottom line, but it could be bad news for enthusiasts. I honestly believe that if they felt that they could make the same amount of profit by just licensing out the Lionel logo they would stop making trains all together. Call me cynical...
jonnyspeed posted:artfull dodger posted:It is a shame, I would settle for a Flyerchief NKP Berk if it had a Mars light. They cancel stuff like this but yet make trash like Mega Trax. Someone at the Circle L ranch needs to be fired and a proper model railroader instead of a college bred bean counter brought in. If they want to the scale to grow, then better and consistant support is needed.
They don't care about growing the scale. They will sell anything they can make a profit on. Of course that is good for business and the bottom line, but it could be bad news for enthusiasts. I honestly believe that if they felt that they could make the same amount of profit by just licensing out the Lionel logo they would stop making trains all together. Call me cynical...
Plus, they're taking on other risky ventures. Mega Tracks flopped, the HO Polar Express cratered and was blown out by the big dealers, I'm not sure if adding Bluetooth and track (which is not compatible with other brands of HO track) to them is going to help (along with the other three sets using the HO PE stuff.) Plus they recently bought the Model Power/Mantua HO line from MRC to try again to seriously break in to HO with very likely high-priced average HO. Then there's the recently opened Lionel Store in the Concord Mills mall.
All of which probably have drawn resources away from the Flyer Line. If HO fails (again) and the store doesn't do well, I expect we might see a head or two rolling down the street. And if there winds up being another management shake up, it's back to square one with Flyer.
Rusty
dkdkrd posted:Roundhouse Bill posted:
These were not BTO, as someone suggested, and there was around 6 months to order one. This was not on Lionel. The market just didn't order enough to make it affordable for Lionel. So in affect it is on us.
Lionel does not exist to make us miserable. We do it to ourselves.
Absolutely spot on!
Pogo agrees....
I'm still trying to figure out if I'm misery or company...
Rusty
Folks, you are beating a dead horse, people didn't support/order enough, so Lionel backed out - very understandable. Lionel is coming out with new stuff and people are buying it - they react to what people actually buy, not want.
All the chest beating and bleating does nothing but discourage others from entering the S hobby.
You get more flies with honey then vinegar.
Francine posted:
All the chest beating and bleating does nothing but discourage others from entering the S hobby.
And here I thought it was the lack of readily available or the lack of variety of S products in stock at the dealers...
Rusty
Roundhouse Bill posted:You guys should go back and read what Ryan Kunkle told be at the beginning of this thread. Here it is again from the email he sent me.
_______________________________
Bill,
Got your message but don’t have time to return your call today. The Legacy Berk run was cancelled for the reasons outlined to the dealers. Tooling costs came in much higher than anticipated and when spread across the order numbers the cost of production was prohibitive. We’ve looked into other alternatives over the past several months and ultimately had to come to this decision.
Thank you,
Ryan
____________________________
These were not BTO, as someone suggested, and there was around 6 months to order one. This was not on Lionel. The market just didn't order enough to make it affordable for Lionel. So in affect it is on us.
Lionel does not exist to make us miserable. We do it to ourselves.
Ladies and Gentlemen,
There is another factor that is easy to miss in the Berk cancellation, we touched on this earlier in the thread, but here is the take away:
Ryan's letter says 'Tooling costs came in much higher than anticipated and when spread across the order numbers the cost of production was prohibitive'.
With the much higher tooling costs, maybe Lionel would have made little or nothing selling the Berks at the price they cataloged, regardless of the orders, so they pulled the plug. The orders may have been ok for $499 production, but was not for whatever the much higher tooling cost was.
So we shouldn't beat ourselves up over how many were ordered at the price Lionel originally pitched without knowing the rest of the story.
Mike
A last several people are making real sense with what they are writing. Lionel is a business not a hobby for its owners.
Roundhouse Bill posted:A last several people are making real sense with what they are writing. Lionel is a business not a hobby for its owners.
If Lionel is a business, then someone dropped off big time and got their sums wrong, shouldn’t be any excuses really. It doesn’t matter how many orders they took it was always going to be cancelled regardless, so why give people false hopes for so long?
If they picked a sale price at the beginning with a view to costing it all later then shame on them for bad decision making, very unprofessional.
UKAFLYER - Not true on setting their price too low on purpose.
I was told Ryan that they got a great production price from the manufacturer. It was an unexpected increase in the tooling cost that couldn't be covered by the number of orders.
Roundhouse Bill posted:UKAFLYER - Not true on setting their price too low on purpose.
I was told Ryan that they got a great production price from the manufacturer. It was an unexpected increase in the tooling cost that couldn't be covered by the number of orders.
I never said the price was set low on purpose. You actually confirm that the price was set on an initial build contract but the builder has goofed on actual costs later on.
What was the unexpected costs that caused the cancellation? Perhaps the contractor should have honoured the original price and absorbed the additional costs as it was his mistake. As I said above it was bad planning not to have calculated the costs at the beginning.
I'm not upset that Lionel didn't make a post announcing the Legacy Berks were cancelled. It wouldn't change the fact they were cancelled. Them's the breaks. Just disappointed they were cancelled.
However, I won't be picking up a F/C Berk either. Testing a friend's loco in January satisfied my curiosity about them.
As I mentioned earlier, I'll just move the money I set aside for the Berk to my GDD passenger car fund. If those get cancelled, well I'm sure I could find some place to eventually spend the money.
Rusty
Folks, some have criticized Lionel for their contractor in China raising the price after quoting. For any of you who work for companies that contract with China, you know that this is not uncommon. They also "lose" molds that belong to customers. That's what destroyed HO company IHC, after they moved all the molds/manufacturing to China, and couldn't get them back.
Many companies are now moving production from China to Indonesia or Viet Nam because of the difficulties with China. The Chinese don't seem to care, as they are repurposing manufacturing to autos and the military, both of which are growing significantly.
Sunset made the lovely Pennsy L2 Mikado in the Philippines a few years back. I was hoping it would be a trend with them but sadly does not seem to be. It was a great model but to my knowledge they didn't make anything else there?
Cadillac Mike posted:Sunset made the lovely Pennsy L2 Mikado in the Philippines a few years back. I was hoping it would be a trend with them but sadly does not seem to be. It was a great model but to my knowledge they didn't make anything else there?
In S scale?
No they did it in O scale but it sounds like they are contemplating doing some lovely S scale passenger cars!
China is where most of the expertise is when it comes to the detail work on model trains, which is one big reason why it is difficult for production to move elsewhere. The process is much more complicated than people think.
Jeff C
This thread is about Berks. Back to topic......
Really now... What more can be said about the Legacy Berkshires now that they're cancelled.
Rusty
Good grief...
What does the S scale forum average--about three posts per week? Heaven forbid if we broaden the topic a bit to cover something that, when you give it two seconds thought, is actually relevant to the AF Berkshire debacle...
Jeff C
"What more can be said about the Legacy Berkshires now that they're cancelled." He sez...
Some final thoughts about the cancellation of the Legacy Berks.
I'm skipping the facts and fictions about overseas manufacturing. Those have and will continue to be discussed as the detriment and benefits of modern model train manufacturing in various threads and forums ad infinitum.
I'll take Ryan's explanation at face value and not assign blame: Not enough orders and increased costs of practically all new tooling killed the project.
However, I think these two issues contributed substantially:
Duplication of effort: After two runs of the FlyerChief Berks, only the American Railroads and RF&P locomotives were "new" roadnames in Legacy. The other four roads were well represented in the FlyerChief versions. Granted you're dealing with a well known NKP prototype, so in the strictest sense that sort of limits other roadname choices to NKP and something visually similar.
However, I can't help wonder if wandering off into fantasy-land a little might have made the difference. Illinois Central, Louisville & Nashville, Santa Fe and others all rostered their own classes of Berkshires. Southern Pacific got some second-hand B&M Berks. While the wheel arrangement with these are the only common link with an NKP Berk, maybe adding some of these roads and eliminating some of the duplicates might have helped in the pre-order department.
Optics: When I first looked at the 2018 Volume 1 catalog, I wondered why there were four pages of FlyerChief Berkshires. I didn't give it a second thought until someone mentioned it here on the forum that the first two pages were of Legacy models. Now OK, shame on me for just lookin' at the pretty pictures and not reading the description, but anyone casually glancing through the catalog probably came to the same conclusion.
It's well known Lionel (and MTH) use Photoshop for cataloging purposes. As the Legacy Berks were to be more detailed cousins to the F/C Berks, this may have been an instance where the O Scale Berkshire could have been Photoshopped to better represent the S Scale model. I don't know if any of the CAD drawings were available when the catalog was printed. If so, maybe they could have been included to help differentiate the Legacy version from the FlyerChief versions.
Rusty
Optics: When I first looked at the 2018 Volume 1 catalog, I wondered why there were four pages of FlyerChief Berkshires. I didn't give it a second thought until someone mentioned it here on the forum that the first two pages were of Legacy models. Now OK, shame on me for just lookin' at the pretty pictures and not reading the description, but anyone casually glancing through the catalog probably came to the same conclusion.
Rusty
I, too, just looked at the pictures, and did not realize that the initial 2 pages showed Legacy locomotives. I just thought that these were new FlyerChief locomotives with new numbers and the addition of 2 new roadnames. If I had not read that they were Legacy locomotives in this forum, I would have persisted in that misguided belief.
LittleTommy
I own 2 of the Flyerchief Berks and think they are great locomotives. I'm not hung up on the cast-in handrails and other details, but I would have liked Legacy TMCC and a more capable sound system. I wonder if Lionel will consider doing a version with current castings and upgraded electronics?
Scott Griggs
Louisville, KY
Flyer 52 posted:Roundhouse Bill posted:You guys should go back and read what Ryan Kunkle told be at the beginning of this thread. Here it is again from the email he sent me.
_______________________________
Bill,
Got your message but don’t have time to return your call today. The Legacy Berk run was cancelled for the reasons outlined to the dealers. Tooling costs came in much higher than anticipated and when spread across the order numbers the cost of production was prohibitive. We’ve looked into other alternatives over the past several months and ultimately had to come to this decision.
Thank you,
Ryan
____________________________
These were not BTO, as someone suggested, and there was around 6 months to order one. This was not on Lionel. The market just didn't order enough to make it affordable for Lionel. So in affect it is on us.
Lionel does not exist to make us miserable. We do it to ourselves.
Ladies and Gentlemen,
There is another factor that is easy to miss in the Berk cancellation, we touched on this earlier in the thread, but here is the take away:
Ryan's letter says 'Tooling costs came in much higher than anticipated and when spread across the order numbers the cost of production was prohibitive'.
With the much higher tooling costs, maybe Lionel would have made little or nothing selling the Berks at the price they cataloged, regardless of the orders, so they pulled the plug. The orders may have been ok for $499 production, but was not for whatever the much higher tooling cost was.
So we shouldn't beat ourselves up over how many were ordered at the price Lionel originally pitched without knowing the rest of the story.Mike
Mike,
Your post makes sense, and I would have been happy to pay more for the Legacy Berkshire given the opportunity.
It's too bad that the cost of tooling and manufacturing the Legacy Berk wasn't known when the MSRP was set.
That way Lionel could have made money and I could have had a Legacy Berkshire to add to my Challenger, my Y-3, my Polar Express, my Flyer Chief/Bluetooth Berk, and my ES44 and SD70 roster.
And as was previously stated it is too bad that all the other improvements to the Legacy Berkshire were not better communicated. That could have had a big effect on the pre-orders.
Aflyer
How much did the latest trade policy tariff's with China have to do with it?
I don't see why they couldn't have put external handrails on it like the postwar locos. Fill in the fake handrails on the mold, drill some holes and use cotter pins, like postwar. That would not have cost more, but would have looked a lot better.
Then there would be something new to complain about.
SXE
Lionel has made several comments that the tariffs have not effected Lionel’s production and importation of our trains, and if it did, I would think Lionel would be willing to let the consumer know that the reason for a cost hike is out of their hands due to a tariff.
Ben
banjoflyer posted:Rusty Traque posted:BTW. Where were all the Flyer people that wanted a Legacy steam locomotive?
Right here. Ordered the Legacy RF&P Berkshire.
Mark
I ordered the RF&P as well, from C Ro.
Art
Rusty Traque posted:BTW. Where were all the Flyer people that wanted a Legacy steam locomotive?
Right here. Ordered the Legacy RF&P Berkshire.
Mark
I ordered the RF&P as well, from C Ro.
Art
I ordered the P.M. Berk, just canceled the P.M. caboose I wont have use for.
Ray
I had also ordered a Legacy Berkshire. With the cancellation I sent my Erie FlyerChief Berk to Carl Tuveson for his conversion to TMCC/Railsounds.
They had so much trouble with the flyer cheif versions, I'd cancel too. Lots of new. Boards.
Dmaxdeere87 posted:They had so much trouble with the flyer cheif versions, I'd cancel too. Lots of new. Boards.
What trouble? The original PE sets? I haven't heard much complaining about the FlyerChief operations. The previous post was about the cancelled LEGACY BERKS. To what trouble are you referring?
Mark
Mark I agree, I have heard very little of problems with the Flyerchief locomotives. All three of mine are fine.
Ray
I've replaced many of boards in flyer cheif engines. The diesels are about the same too.
Since I know of nobody else who has trouble with the FlyerChief boards what is the problem you are having with yours?
Dmaxdeere87 posted:They had so much trouble with the flyer cheif versions, I'd cancel too. Lots of new. Boards.
I have 3 and never had a problem with the boards. Also, never heard of others having problems. Interested to hear what type of trouble.
We are a Lionel repair station and have had several issues with both the Lionel and AF Chief systems. Mostly issues with the smoke systems. Either no fan or element voltages. We have had some that needed 3 boards swaps before they worked properly. We can not repair them as there is no documentation or repair
sub-boards available. Also the tender tether wiring between the Bluetooth and first generation are not compatible. Neither are most of the boards connectors.
Rusty Traque posted:"What more can be said about the Legacy Berkshires now that they're cancelled." He sez...
Some final thoughts about the cancellation of the Legacy Berks.
I'm skipping the facts and fictions about overseas manufacturing. Those have and will continue to be discussed as the detriment and benefits of modern model train manufacturing in various threads and forums ad infinitum.
I'll take Ryan's explanation at face value and not assign blame: Not enough orders and increased costs of practically all new tooling killed the project.
However, I think these two issues contributed substantially:
Duplication of effort: After two runs of the FlyerChief Berks, only the American Railroads and RF&P locomotives were "new" roadnames in Legacy. The other four roads were well represented in the FlyerChief versions. Granted you're dealing with a well known NKP prototype, so in the strictest sense that sort of limits other roadname choices to NKP and something visually similar.
However, I can't help wonder if wandering off into fantasy-land a little might have made the difference. Illinois Central, Louisville & Nashville, Santa Fe and others all rostered their own classes of Berkshires. Southern Pacific got some second-hand B&M Berks. While the wheel arrangement with these are the only common link with an NKP Berk, maybe adding some of these roads and eliminating some of the duplicates might have helped in the pre-order department.
Optics: When I first looked at the 2018 Volume 1 catalog, I wondered why there were four pages of FlyerChief Berkshires. I didn't give it a second thought until someone mentioned it here on the forum that the first two pages were of Legacy models. Now OK, shame on me for just lookin' at the pretty pictures and not reading the description, but anyone casually glancing through the catalog probably came to the same conclusion.
It's well known Lionel (and MTH) use Photoshop for cataloging purposes. As the Legacy Berks were to be more detailed cousins to the F/C Berks, this may have been an instance where the O Scale Berkshire could have been Photoshopped to better represent the S Scale model. I don't know if any of the CAD drawings were available when the catalog was printed. If so, maybe they could have been included to help differentiate the Legacy version from the FlyerChief versions.
Rusty
Good point Rusty. The ONLY place that listed ALL of the new improved features was the post on this forum by Ryan. The vast majority of potential customers might not have know that they would have new detail parts, separate handrails, 4 chuffs/rev, and Kadee mounting pads. Personally I would have been happy to order two at double the price instead of the four that I was ordering. Heck, if they would have given it whistle steam I would have paid up to $1100 for one.
I think this will be the last attempt at a high-end S scale steam locomotive from Lionel. I don't believe that their customer base will support models at the price that they would need to charge. If they couldn't get enough orders at this bargain price...
6 years ago I thought that S would be my perfect scale as I loved the size and Lionel was going to make O scale jr. without the stupid 3 rail compromises. The thoughts of S scale Legacy controlled Hudsons, Mohawks, J's, Daylights, EM-1s, K4's, etc... danced through my head. I was so excited. Now I'm just defeated. S is dead IMHO. Time to move on.
Hi Folks,
I just want to clear up a misconception in this thread, that is, that Lionel did not get enough orders for the AF Legacy Berk.
I talked with Ryan Kunkle at the York Meet. Lionel was pleased with the number of orders and interest in the AF Legacy Berks. The tooling costs came in much higher they had anticipated/planned, so they could not produce the Berks at the original selling price. If they had an incredibly large order, they may have been able to absorb some of the cost and still done the run, but not the case.
So the number of orders was fine for the original tooling cost/selling price and the AF Legacy Berks would have been produced.
My interpretation of what Ryan also said was that based on the interest in the AF Legacy Berks, they would be considering future AF Legacy projects. No guarantees of course or hints, but for those that might care, we are still in the game.
Mike
Thanks Mike, nice to know that the orders received were at or above the planning number.
Mike,
Thank you for that clarification.
Flyer 52 posted:My interpretation of what Ryan also said was that based on the interest in the AF Legacy Berks, they would be considering future AF Legacy projects. No guarantees of course or hints, but for those that might care, we are still in the game.
Mike
At the TCA presentation during the Q&A, (the video's on Youtube, look up TCA Netvision) Ryan mentioned the Legacy Berk may be revisited in the future, but don't look for it anytime soon. He also mentioned cancelling the Berk doesn't close the door on Legacy Flyer locomotives.
I suspect any future new-tooled Legacy locomotive will also be priced more realistically.
Rusty
If Lionel ever produces the Legacy Berk, they should look into the SD-40 they once promised. They could make a whole new series, "The Revisited Series." Special packaging, certificates of authenticity, the possibilities are endless..
Quick Casey posted:If Lionel ever produces the Legacy Berk, they should look into the SD-40 they once promised. They could make a whole new series, "The Revisited Series." Special packaging, certificates of authenticity, the possibilities are endless..
They could start a new Vaporware division...
Jeff C