Long distance Amtrak service has been hanging by a thread since day one of Amtrak. We can't discuss the politics of the Congressional funding of Amtrak but therein lies the problem. Since the end of WWII all rail passenger service has run in the red and the railroads were delighted to offload this service onto Amtrak. Every year taxpayer $$ are used to make up the difference between operating revenue and operating costs, thus the political football.

Lew

Hi Sam,

 Searching for the other threads about this is not easy due to the topic titles.   Here's one where we discussed part of the issue

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...11#80128401253742111

Just my opinion but, the Amtrak long distance passenger trains are really more of a vacation outing, rather than used for business personnel, or purely transportation. Pretty hard to rationalize taking a 3 day "business trip" from, say Chicago to either Los Angeles, San Francisco, or Seattle. Thus, if vacationers desire to take a "land cruise", then they should be prepared to pay the full-boat costs of such a trip, WITHOUT taxpayer assistance.

Just like the highways and airplanes? 

Farmer_Bill posted:

Just like the highways and airplanes? 

Unlike the "highways" and "air ports", the U.S. railroads are private businesses, that not only pay income taxes, but also massive realestate/property taxes. Yes, the airlines are also private business, but have the luxury of taxpayer constructed air ports. The railroads do not have that same luxury.

Just finished this excellent book which covers this and many other topics. The author documents in detail how passenger service has been dying for decades. Way before Amtrak.

https://www.goodreads.com/book...romance-of-the-rails

Virtually all of the world's excellent passenger rail transportation is government subsidized, and the citizens of those diverse countries are all too glad to support that system. It could work here if there was the political will to do so. The focus on major intercity passenger rail upgrades might be a start. The US rail system is heavily freight oriented, and that system is currently in a state of transition to a more efficient and leaner structure. Those so-called "Land Cruise" passengers probably should bear a greater share of the cost for such non-essential travel.

This debate will be endless.  All transportation forms are supported by government subsidies in some form.  Here in CA we are spending millions on bike lanes and trails even though only a tiny percentage of the population uses bikes to get around.  Scooters and bikes from companies such as Lime Bike have become a safety and pollution problem because riders leave them on the side walks and streets.

Whether or not a train is cost efficient almost always depends on how the accounting is done.  It is easy to allocate expenses and income in many different ways depending on the point that an organization wants to make.  I suppose we will find out if passenger trains can be successful if the new Bright Line (spelling ?) service in FL succeeds.  As I understand it, the trains are mostly privately funded. 

Long distance passenger provide a service just as subsidized airline service to small airports provides a service.  There are no right, wrong or easy answers to this question.   NH Joe

This is a great idea by Amtrak.  This way the government will be subsidizing transportation that actually serves the public interest by offering more options for transportation on busy intercity corridors and alleviating the burden on the roads.   Right now the subsidy is being used to benefit vacationers on long haul routes.

Very little chance of this happening however because Congress loves to ***** about Amtrak subsidies while they act in a manner that makes it impossible for the railroad to be more efficient.  Also, the unions will go beserk because the long haul routes add to Amtrak’s already out-of-whack labor costs relative to other railroads.  So all the old geezers can relax, they will still have vacation trains subsidized by the remainder of the U.S. taxpayers.  

Highways and airports are heavily government subsidized (socialism?) quite simply because they are the MAIN systems of passenger transport in the US. With the exception of the Northeast Corridor and a few other routes, there does not really exist a concensus for government support of the entire Amtrak system with the politicians or their constituents.

As NH JOE stated above, there are NO easy answers, and the debate continues!

Hot Water posted:

Just my opinion but, the Amtrak long distance passenger trains are really more of a vacation outing, rather than used for business personnel, or purely transportation. Pretty hard to rationalize taking a 3 day "business trip" from, say Chicago to either Los Angeles, San Francisco, or Seattle. Thus, if vacationers desire to take a "land cruise", then they should be prepared to pay the full-boat costs of such a trip, WITHOUT taxpayer assistance.

I have no idea what they numbers are, but whatever they are, it's not a matter of opinion. A certain percentage is made up of people who, for one reason or other, do not fly.

But in a way, what would have happened if there was no Amtrak?  Part of the reason for it was to "help" the PC.  However, would most of the freight railroads would have gone into Conrail or something like it if they had to keep up the passenger trains they had?

Dominic Mazoch posted:

But in a way, what would have happened if there was no Amtrak?  Part of the reason for it was to "help" the PC.  However, would most of the freight railroads would have gone into Conrail or something like it if they had to keep up the passenger trains they had?

Good grief!!!!  Where do you come up with such stuff?????

Hot Water posted:

Just my opinion but, the Amtrak long distance passenger trains are really more of a vacation outing, rather than used for business personnel, or purely transportation. Pretty hard to rationalize taking a 3 day "business trip" from, say Chicago to either Los Angeles, San Francisco, or Seattle. Thus, if vacationers desire to take a "land cruise", then they should be prepared to pay the full-boat costs of such a trip, WITHOUT taxpayer assistance.

Wonder what the customer full-boat costs would be? Maybe 5-6 times todays' cost?  Sure some AMTRAK green shade visor bean counter has the cost to the penny.

I thought I heard that Amtrak was funded at current levels on the spending bill last week.

The railroads have been wanting to dump the long distance trains for a long time, but I just don't see them going away. The sky is always falling on Amtrak, but they're like cockroaches, can't get rid of them. 

Glad I rode the Empire Builder to Seattle. I'll keep following it til it actually stops. The map is going to look weird without the four big trains:

1. Sunset Limited
2. Southwest Chief
3. California Zephyr
4. Empire Builder

As a railfan this is the real national emergency.

I've said this many times in the past, but for the US, rail travel is a geography problem. It will never be profitable on it's own and will always need government support. The west just doesn't have the population density to ever have a train  turn anything close to a profit. The counterargument is does the public good outweigh the expense? Compared to other budget items, Amtrak is a drop in the bucket.

President Trump who had executive ordered Fed money, as a starter for a multi-billion, or even trillion dollar west coast mass transit system, recently became so frustrated with West Coast politics, he canceled the Fed contribution.  IMO, The water on the west coast must be different, IMO.  Use to call it progressive think, not sure what you called it today.   Yoy!!   

Mike CT posted:

President Trump who had executive ordered Fed money, as a starter for a multi-billion, or even trillion dollar west coast mass transit system, recently became so frustrated with West Coast politics, he canceled the Fed contribution.  IMO, The water on the west coast must be different, IMO.  Use to call it progressive think, not sure what you called it today.   Yoy!!   

I heard a very different story on that, that it was the Governor of California that pulled the plug on the project, by not continuing state funding. That action made the federal funding go away. Didn't have anything to do with Trump. The Governor happens to be a Democrat, as was his predecessor whose pet project it was originally. The project didn't even start on Trump's watch. It's been going on a lot longer than he's been in office. He doesn't deserve credit or blame for this one.

I'm doing my very best to not be political, but when it comes to money and real trains, there's really no worthwhile discussion without it.

Big_Boy_4005 posted:

Mike CT posted:

President Trump who had executive ordered Fed money, as a starter for a multi-billion, or even trillion dollar west coast mass transit system, recently became so frustrated with West Coast politics, he canceled the Fed contribution.  IMO, The water on the west coast must be different, IMO.  Use to call it progressive think, not sure what you called it today.   Yoy!!   

I heard a very different story on that, that it was the Governor of California that pulled the plug on the project, by not continuing state funding. That action made the federal funding go away. Didn't have anything to do with Trump. The Governor happens to be a Democrat, as was his predecessor whose pet project it was originally.

Correct, and that was quite some days ago that the NEW California Governor "pulled the plug" on the ridiculous HSR mess within his own state.

I'm doing my very best to not be political, but when it comes to money and real trains, there's really no worthwhile discussion without it.

Thanks Jack, I always worry that people who rely on certain "news" sources  don't get the truth. I'm a firm believer in truth, despite what comes out of the President these days. I have a good ear for BS when I hear it.

The LA Times reports that the governor just called a pause in the project, allowing the Bakersfield/Merced line to proceed.

I am among those who would like to see Amtrak upgraded to track speeds and frequencies that would be useful - those of 1950 spring to mind.  I have heard that it wouldn't take all that many billions to do a reasonable upgrade.

I personally see no use for "bullet trains".  Having driven large things at 300 mph, there is just no way I want any part of a train hurtling down the tracks at speeds like that.  Eighty is plenty - maybe 110 on the straight parts.  The very nice Coast Starlight averages below 40 mph, which is why it is more like a luxury cruise than a transportation system.

This seems like a smart move if it really happens although losing a few trains will probably not impact the Amtrak bottom line all that much.  For what it is worth the North East Corridor should be spun off as an entirely separate business unit.  California seems to handle rail fairly well perhaps that should be a separate business unit as well, it appears Florida is well on its way with the Brightline experiment.  Other than nostalgia it just doesn't make any business sense to have once daily trains crossing the country at a pace just above wagon train speed and frequently late.  Better to concentrate on something that can provide quality service and build out from there.

From Amtrak website today

Tinplate Art posted:

Those so-called "Land Cruise" passengers probably should bear a greater share of the cost for such non-essential travel.

And perhaps "land cruise" motorists going on vacations should pay more highway taxes, and airline passengers on pleasure trips should pay more costs of the FAA, and airport security, and airport construction and maintenance, and etc. etc.

bob2 posted:

I am among those who would like to see Amtrak upgraded to track speeds and frequencies that would be useful - those of 1950 spring to mind.  I have heard that it wouldn't take all that many billions to do a reasonable upgrade.

I personally see no use for "bullet trains".  Having driven large things at 300 mph, there is just no way I want any part of a train hurtling down the tracks at speeds like that.  Eighty is plenty - maybe 110 on the straight parts. 

Not sure where you heard that. As most folks know, the speed problems with Amtrak primarily stem from the fact that they have to use infrastruction that belongs to the private freight railroads, and guess who takes priority? It's not a matter of upgrading Amtrak's track speeds and frequencies - freight schedules effectively keep a lid on it. Not sure what a "reasonable upgrade" would be, other than adding more dedicated track for Amtrak's use, but that cost would be enormous. 

Don't want any part of bullet trains? China, Japan, and Europe are leaving you in the dust. And the U.S. air system is becoming saturated. Now what? Then there are those who think the U.S. is "too big" for high speed rail. Really? China soars while America sleeps.

      "Beijing-Shanghai high speed train link the two megacities 1,318 km (819 mi) away in just 4.5 hours. By 2018, China          keeps the world's largest high speed rail (HSR) network with a length totaling over 29,000 km (18,000 mi). The                    world's longest HSR line, Beijing - Hong Kong High Speed Railway, extends 2,440 km (1,516 mi)."

necrails posted:

Other than nostalgia it just doesn't make any business sense to have once daily trains crossing the country at a pace just above wagon train speed and frequently late.  Better to concentrate on something that can provide quality service and build out from there.

Perhaps better to adequately fund something that's already in place but has been strangled by budget cuts, and build out from there.

To further muddy the waters:

From Railway Age:

America without Greyhound—and no replacement passenger trains

It's a "what if" piece, so cool your jets. But the "if" is currently playing out in Canada, so cautionary tale, or a prophecy...?

---PCJ 

I hardly call it a vacation..getting to one place or another..

Fly or bus is what's left...or drive. And the cost of gas nicks that. Plus motel/motel. Costs.

Not everyone makes a 100 grand a year.

As discussed before, the cost per taxpayer to subsidize Amtrak is less than $10.00 per year.  There is no vast cost savings in cutting Amtrak partially or fully, and to pretend that fuel prices are always going to be as low as they are now is short-sighted at best.

Farmer_Bill posted:

From Amtrak website today

Save up to 25% Across the Country

Book early with Saver Fares. Book Today

 

It should probably read, "Book early so you can't take advantage of 25% savings fares later on". My case with booking the Sunset Limited and Cresent a month ago for May.

It's not unusual to fund "money losers" with "money makers". The Delaware River Port Authority funds the Cape May/Lewes Ferry with profits from the Delaware Memorial Bridge up north. The ferry is a time and distance saver for cars and trucks, many of them coming from/to the Chesapeake Bay Bridge/Tunnel. On the NJ side, it links directly to the Garden State Parkway. BTW, passage on the ferry is NOT inexpensive.

necrails posted:

 it just doesn't make any business sense to have once daily trains crossing the country

The Sunset Limited, New Orleans to LA, is just 3 days per week.

breezinup posted:

Don't want any part of bullet trains? China, Japan, and Europe are leaving you in the dust. And the U.S. air system is becoming saturated. Now what? Then there are those who think the U.S. is "too big" for high speed rail. Really? China soars while America sleeps.

      "Beijing-Shanghai high speed train link the two megacities 1,318 km (819 mi) away in just 4.5 hours. By 2018, China          keeps the world's largest high speed rail (HSR) network with a length totaling over 29,000 km (18,000 mi). The                    world's longest HSR line, Beijing - Hong Kong High Speed Railway, extends 2,440 km (1,516 mi)."

Wonder if Beijing to Tibet will ever make a profit?  (think CHI to LA)

It is a fact that the rest of the world has outpaced us with high speed rail technology including some limited mag-lev operations. Most, if not all, employ electric propulsion, and operate on dedicated crossing-free rights of way. Americans, with our independent streak, quickly adopted the automobile and airplane as the dominant modes of travel, while the passenger railroads, and their antiquated infrastructure, were largely "left in the dust" only to be quasi-rescued by Amtrak. The political will (on all sides) just really was not there, and consequently, we settled for the least common denominator. The several intercity lines such as those in Florida and California are perhaps bright spots (pun intended) in what is otherwise a very pale reflection of the modern and efficient railroads of most of the developed world! "When will they ever learn?" - Pete Seeger

Matt_GNo27 posted:

Hot Water posted:

Just my opinion but, the Amtrak long distance passenger trains are really more of a vacation outing, rather than used for business personnel, or purely transportation. Pretty hard to rationalize taking a 3 day "business trip" from, say Chicago to either Los Angeles, San Francisco, or Seattle. Thus, if vacationers desire to take a "land cruise", then they should be prepared to pay the full-boat costs of such a trip, WITHOUT taxpayer assistance.

I have no idea what they numbers are, but whatever they are, it's not a matter of opinion. A certain percentage is made up of people who, for one reason or other, do not fly.

Is it the job of the American taxpayer to pay for another option because a few people don't like the other two options?  The fact of the matter is, people moving aside, the highway system and the air system support our economy by moving goods and providing services.  Passenger rail travel is one dimensional and redundant.  As I said on another forum the other day, if AMTRAK suspended ALL operations outside of a couple corridors tomorrow at 8AM, the ONLY way 98% of the population would even be aware of it is by seeing the news reports of it.  THAT is how inconsequential and unimportant rail travel is to the VAST majority of the nation.  I've managed to survive 51 years (in which I have visited 30 states) without ever setting foot on an AMTRAK train.

I checked one-way flight from Chicago to Seattle at 2PM this Saturday - $300

Then the same trip via Amtrak, also leaving 2PM this Saturday - $400

Amtrak travel is much cheaper per hour than flying.  I'm surprised more businessmen don't choose it. 

Outside of selected high density urban corridors, passenger rail travel in the US is practically invisible to the vast majority of Americans. Farmer Bill's suggestion above about state initiated and sponsored intercity travel has merit. Maybe it is also time to rededicate the remaining long distance Amtrak trains as true land cruises with appropriate increased revenue structures to pay for their operation. The folks who are patrons due to an aversion to flying are probably fewer than the rail cruise customers, so the greater good would be served. Amenities and gourmet meals could be added to justify the increased fares, and maybe even a mini-spa and hair salon.

Well, then, I'd better book a ride soon. It's a nice way to go if you're not in a hurry.

Farmer_Bill posted:

I checked one-way flight from Chicago to Seattle at 2PM this Saturday - $300

Then the same trip via Amtrak, also leaving 2PM this Saturday - $400

Amtrak travel is much cheaper per hour than flying.  I'm surprised more businessmen don't choose it. 

True, until fuel prices rise again.  A 737 size airplane uses about 800 gallons of jet fuel per hour.  Fuel makes up about half the operating cost of airlines, so any change in price has a disproportionate impact on ticket cost compared to the railroads.  In the 70s, the demand for rail travel rose dramatically after the oil embargo.  More recently, the 2008 spike in oil prices with gasoline topping $5.00 per gallon caused a net reduction in the total miles driven in the United States.  It will not take much to cause another economic disaster and, suddenly, the time required to travel by train does not seem so bad after all.

johnstrains posted:

Just finished this excellent book which covers this and many other topics. The author documents in detail how passenger service has been dying for decades. Way before Amtrak.

https://www.goodreads.com/book...romance-of-the-rails

The guy who wrote this book has no idea what he is talking about. Amtrak passenger ridership has increased steadily for many years and the majority of its funding comes from ticket sales. Fact is that less than 3% of the total national transportation budget is used as an Amtrak subsidy.  The majority goes to highways, airports, city transportation, roads, highways, bridges and tunnels.

Today about 300 million travelers use the airlines. About 30 million use Amtrak.  Myself and my wife are regular Amtrak travelers as we refuse to be lowered to the level of animals just to board a plane. We have been as far West as Seattle, as far South as Miami/ New Orleans ,and to the mid-West in Chicago, Denver, Omaha and Kansas City. While there has been talk about doing away with some long distance routes; I do not see that happening. Large airports are scarce or too far away from 100's of small towns across the country. There Amtrak is the only public transportation means.

Dennis LaGrua posted:

johnstrains posted:

Just finished this excellent book which covers this and many other topics. The author documents in detail how passenger service has been dying for decades. Way before Amtrak.

https://www.goodreads.com/book...romance-of-the-rails

The guy who wrote this book has no idea what he is talking about.

And we should believe that you do??????

Amtrak passenger ridership has increased steadily for many years and the majority of its funding comes from ticket sales. Fact is that less than 3% of the total national transportation budget is used as an Amtrak subsidy. 

Maybe that is due to the fact that Amtrak is funded separately?

The majority goes to highways, airports, city transportation, roads, highways, bridges and tunnels.

Today about 300 million travelers use the airlines. About 30 million use Amtrak.  Myself and my wife are regular Amtrak travelers as we refuse to be lowered to the level of animals just to board a plane. We have been as far West as Seattle, as far South as Miami/ New Orleans ,and to the mid-West in Chicago, Denver, Omaha and Kansas City. While there has been talk about doing away with some long distance routes; I do not see that happening. Large airports are scarce or too far away from 100's of small towns across the country. There Amtrak is the only public transportation means.

Piggybacking on the 30 million Amtrak riders statistic, how many of those riders are concentrated in California and the North East Corridor?  Remember the original post was about long distance travel and Amtraks decision (possibly) to concentrate on corridor service.  So with that in mind, how many of the 30 million ride the long distance trains?  And with those trains in mind the other metrics should be operating costs and on time performance.  Also with regards to the 100's (not sure there are that many Amtrak stations in the region you are referring to but we will go with that), what is the passenger pick up and departures from those locations?  As far as comparing the US to China, I think China lacks the following, a robust road network, large numbers of individuals owning private vehicles and a robust air transport system.  Coupled with an overall lower GDP and the ease in obtaining a ROW the Chinese do present an entirely different environment for long distance rail travel.  

I guess one of the best metrics we can use on Amtrak long-distance train travel is looking at ourselves.

As train buffs, how many long distance trips did we take before we were retired and how long were the trips?

The taxpayers dime can only be stretched so thin.   At some time fiscal responsibility has to take place.

I hate to say it, but long distance train travel is no longer a necessity for the US.

Big_Boy_4005 posted:

Mike CT posted:

President Trump who had executive ordered Fed money, as a starter for a multi-billion, or even trillion dollar west coast mass transit system, recently became so frustrated with West Coast politics, he canceled the Fed contribution.  IMO, The water on the west coast must be different, IMO.  Use to call it progressive think, not sure what you called it today.   Yoy!!   

I heard a very different story on that, that it was the Governor of California that pulled the plug on the project, by not continuing state funding. That action made the federal funding go away. Didn't have anything to do with Trump. The Governor happens to be a Democrat, as was his predecessor whose pet project it was originally. The project didn't even start on Trump's watch. It's been going on a lot longer than he's been in office. He doesn't deserve credit or blame for this one.

I'm doing my very best to not be political, but when it comes to money and real trains, there's really no worthwhile discussion without it.

Elliot,

You are spot on. When it comes to money and trains we the taxpayers end up paying too much for too little. Our government will never get out of Amtrak's way enough to let it shine. We could have better passenger rail service in America and it would not need to break the back of taxpayers. Unfortunately politicians will not allow it.

Farmer_Bill posted:

I checked one-way flight from Chicago to Seattle at 2PM this Saturday - $300

Then the same trip via Amtrak, also leaving 2PM this Saturday - $400

Amtrak travel is much cheaper per hour than flying.  I'm surprised more businessmen don't choose it. 

A major difference between long distance trains and airlines is that Amtrak, on the Empire Builder for example, makes over 40 stops along the way. This is a critical difference, and illustrates a value of the long distance trains that some people are ignorant about. Not the people living along the train route, though.

The train stops at places like Portage, WI, Red Wing, MN, Stanley, ND, Havre MT, Sandpoint, ID, and dozens of other towns, connecting those folks with the outside world.  Other than driving, which for many is not an option, there's no other alternative. There's no airline service to these places!

Thanks Mike. Amtrak will always be a "second class citizen" at the mercy of the freight railroads. This is a design for failure, but it's the system we were born with, and other options are far more expensive. 

When the comparisons point to Europe, Japan and China for HSR. European and Japanese distances are very small compared to the needs of the US. China has a political and geographical advantage over the US even though the sizes of the two countries are about the same. First their population is about four times that of the US, and second, their autocratic form of government is much more conducive to declaring a policy and getting it done. However, I would not trade places with a citizen of China, just for their trains. Not a good deal!

A train buddy of mine once said, " A horse designed by committee is a camel." In other words, when you get a lot of different opinions on a project nobody gets exactly what they want. This is the American way. High speed rail needs its own right of way if we ever want to have any. That's a tough nut to crack, as California is proving in spades.

Regarding my previous comments on the California HSR project, I learned shortly after I made that post, that the President made comments to the effect that he wanted California to either repay federal funds already spent on the project or that he would attempt to deny them future federal funding for any number of unrelated projects, especially disaster relief. Fortunately, this still is the United States of America, and neither of those things will fly. He denies the Constitution and makes those comments at his own peril.

We can always move highway funds to rail... if we wanted.

Don't know if this would be covered, but just this past weekend took the auto-train north bound.

Yes I was on vacation, returning with my family, and simply didn't feel like driving.  I could have made it the same amount of time as driving plus had to be there early and then of course wait for the car to be unloaded.  Overall a very good trip.  Left on time and arrived an hour early.  Traveling as a family of five I figure the difference was about an extra $200 to $250 to not have to drive. Off set costs being gas, hotel for family of five and two meals.  Tolls were insignificant.

This was not peak time and the train was still huge.  15 passenger cars and 20 auto carriers.  This included one cafe car and 1 dining car, all modern bi-level equipment.  We slept in the seats, the actual room cost tipped the scales too far for me.

Arrival and departure were both efficient.  Interestingly a staffer takes a narrated walk-around video of each car to be loaded, noting pre-existing scratches and dings. A soft magnet identifies your car.  Once you check in you get one boarding pass per party and meal tickets. No wasted paper for individual tickets.  the only thing would be a little better would be the ability to select meal seatings when ordering your tickets.  Seating time selection is first come first serve.

The amount of room available is fantastic.  Two bags a piece onboard if desired.  Bathrooms had handicapped options and also a midsized room with a baby changing station.  I used this one the most so my pre-school aged kids could do their business and I still had a place to stand.  Onboard staff was very nice.  The temperature in our car was getting very warm at one point and the attendant was able to reset the compressor to get the hvac working better, no other issues.  

Two plug 115 volt outlet at each seat so charging electronics wasn't a problem.  I was also able to use my cpap through the night so I didn't keep every one else up. ( I snore like a chain saw!)

My 13 yr old was able to use a table in the cafe car in the evening to crank out some home work.  Overall very good experience.

A playground while waiting was greatly appreciated.

Some extra wheel sets and truck assemblies 

Our car was #5212.  The assigned car number is not the same as the physical number.  Here is 5243

Car 5243 was hard painted as 32073

Florida waiting area

Disc brakes

They thought the idling engine was too loud!

Smile nice for the picture!!  (Tables not meant for five - made it work)

Lorton VA playground not nearly as nice

Lorton waiting room.  They announce which cars are ready to pick up and put them on number boards. 

I hope this service doesn't go away.  It is really a nice way to travel.  If I was traveling for business and was going to be on either end for a long period of time that made it impractical to rent a car I would consider this for business.

Thank you for your trip description. Glad it worked out so well for you and your family.

Dan Weinhold

As someone who took the train across Canada in 1965 with our VW Beetle onboard, I'm as nostalgic as anyone about passenger trains, but it seems clear that they are not a viable long distance transport method as presently constituted.  There is the national security issue that popped up after 9/11, which is that both small package delivery and passenger service were out of commission for weeks. However,  the military and rail freight service were not seriously compromised, so I don't think we can make that argument for passenger long distance rail.  But if you were stranded 2000 miles from home, it was no fun I'm sure and you would have welcomed the opportunity to spend a few days going coast to coast by rail. 

But even in Europe, which is much more densely populated, and has better infrastructure for passenger rail travel, if you are going from London to anywhere other than perhaps Paris or Amsterdam, you're flying, not taking the train. At least  if you are on business, not vacation.  London to Venice or Prague by train isn't exactly timely or convenient.  You fly.

I suspect the future of ground long distance travel is a technology such as maglev or loop (vacuum sealed, electrically powered tube travel) at many hundreds of miles per hour.  Perhaps not in our lifetimes nationwide, but eventually.  Will need lots of infrastructure, but so did the national rail network in the 19th century and the interstate highway system in the 20th century.  With robotics, you could travel crosscountry while someone else (the robot) drives if you have the time. 

Thus the railroads are going to be mostly to transport freight, and only large items/volumes at that. 

Don't worry, be happy, I guess. . Watch old train movies and play with models. Go to China, India or Europe and ride the trains there.  The world of the passenger railroad is passing into history, at least in the USA.

Farmer_Bill posted:

I checked one-way flight from Chicago to Seattle at 2PM this Saturday - $300

Then the same trip via Amtrak, also leaving 2PM this Saturday - $400

Amtrak travel is much cheaper per hour than flying.  I'm surprised more businessmen don't choose it. 

When traveling for business, I need a trip length measured in hours, not days. 

Time is money...

Glad to hear (and see) your trip went well. Never took the Auto Train because the people we stay with in Ft. Lauderdale have 2 cars. We usually take the Silver Meteor down and fly home. In fact, we leave in 12 days. We know a few people that use the Auto Train, and they love it. If you ever use it again, get the Ashland, VA live cam (via Youtube) on your laptop, and see yourselves passing by the Ashland station.

FORMER OGR CEO - RETIRED posted:

When traveling for business, I need a trip length measured in hours, not days. 

Time is money...

What?

So what's the "RETIRED" thing doing in the title?  

FORMER OGR CEO - RETIRED posted:

When traveling for business, I need a trip length measured in hours, not days. 

Time is money...

Could be a different story if HSR is ever developed, at least in some markets.

HSR advocates argue that the throughput (in terms of numbers of people moved from place to place for a given investment) provided by high-speed rail far outpaces those provided by highways or airports. In the chart, the US High Speed Rail Association depicts how high-speed rail offers significant time savings compared with flying or driving between downtown San Francisco and downtown Los Angeles in California.

breezinup posted:

FORMER OGR CEO - RETIRED posted:

When traveling for business, I need a trip length measured in hours, not days. 

Time is money...

What?

So what's the "RETIRED" thing doing in the title?  

I've been retired from EMD for more than 20 years, but when we go to visit our kids, or grandkids, I'm sure as he)) not going to spend a day on the train to Kansas City, nor 3 days on the train to Sacramento, California! Thats just stupid, in my opinion.

breezinup posted:

Could be a different story if HSR is ever developed, at least in some markets.

HSR advocates argue that the throughput (in terms of numbers of people moved from place to place for a given investment) provided by high-speed rail far outpaces those provided by highways or airports. In the chart, the US High Speed Rail Association depicts how high-speed rail offers significant time savings compared with flying or driving between downtown San Francisco and downtown Los Angeles in California.

Just wait till TSA and the Dept. of Homeland Insecurity get hold of it:  They'll make sure the savings is eliminated.

FORMER OGR CEO - RETIRED posted:

Farmer_Bill posted:

I checked one-way flight from Chicago to Seattle at 2PM this Saturday - $300

Then the same trip via Amtrak, also leaving 2PM this Saturday - $400

Amtrak travel is much cheaper per hour than flying.  I'm surprised more businessmen don't choose it. 

When traveling for business, I need a trip length measured in hours, not days. 

Time is money...

Farmer Bill, hilarious! I love it!

Dennis LaGrua posted:

johnstrains posted:

Just finished this excellent book which covers this and many other topics. The author documents in detail how passenger service has been dying for decades. Way before Amtrak.

https://www.goodreads.com/book...romance-of-the-rails

The guy who wrote this book has no idea what he is talking about. Amtrak passenger ridership has increased steadily for many years and the majority of its funding comes from ticket sales. Fact is that less than 3% of the total national transportation budget is used as an Amtrak subsidy.  The majority goes to highways, airports, city transportation, roads, highways, bridges and tunnels.

Today about 300 million travelers use the airlines. About 30 million use Amtrak.  Myself and my wife are regular Amtrak travelers as we refuse to be lowered to the level of animals just to board a plane. We have been as far West as Seattle, as far South as Miami/ New Orleans ,and to the mid-West in Chicago, Denver, Omaha and Kansas City. While there has been talk about doing away with some long distance routes; I do not see that happening. Large airports are scarce or too far away from 100's of small towns across the country. There Amtrak is the only public transportation means.

It's time to get over this myth about Amtrak providng service to samll towns.  If you look at the timetables for Amtrak long distance trains, that thing about Amtrak being the only transoportation option for hundreds of small towns is clearly wrong.  Here are a few examples.

Coast Starlight.  On a 1200 mile journey, it serves seven small cities/towns that are not in a state subsidized high density corridor.

California Zephyr In 2300 miles, there are seven stations not reasonably close to a commercial airport.

Empire Builder - 16 stations in 1400 miles and only ten with service at a time anyone would want to travel.

We should also recognize that that there being one daily Amtrak train, often in the middle of the night, does not mean it is available to the local traveler who wants to use the train tomorrow or next week.  There are many times when most of the train is reserved months in advance.

One other issue with HSR, at least in Texas. It might be one of those days where the heat index is through the roof.  A/C units ate running at full.   A HST system, could, send the state into blackout conditions.

necrails posted:

Piggybacking on the 30 million Amtrak riders statistic, how many of those riders are concentrated in California and the North East Corridor?  Remember the original post was about long distance travel and Amtraks decision (possibly) to concentrate on corridor service.  So with that in mind, how many of the 30 million ride the long distance trains?  And with those trains in mind the other metrics should be operating costs and on time performance.  Also with regards to the 100's (not sure there are that many Amtrak stations in the region you are referring to but we will go with that), what is the passenger pick up and departures from those locations?  As far as comparing the US to China, I think China lacks the following, a robust road network, large numbers of individuals owning private vehicles and a robust air transport system.  Coupled with an overall lower GDP and the ease in obtaining a ROW the Chinese do present an entirely different environment for long distance rail travel.  

As a former railroader and cost analyst, I still love passenger trains and would rather travel that way.  But if you look at the numbers, you will see that with the amount of federal subsidy dollars to those Amtrak long distance trains you could buy some luxury buses (1-2 seating) run service twice daily to those small towns where Amtrak stops, provide the service free and have money left over.

breezinup posted:

Farmer_Bill posted:

I checked one-way flight from Chicago to Seattle at 2PM this Saturday - $300

Then the same trip via Amtrak, also leaving 2PM this Saturday - $400

Amtrak travel is much cheaper per hour than flying.  I'm surprised more businessmen don't choose it. 

A major difference between long distance trains and airlines is that Amtrak, on the Empire Builder for example, makes over 40 stops along the way. This is a critical difference, and illustrates a value of the long distance trains that some people are ignorant about. Not the people living along the train route, though.

The train stops at places like Portage, WI, Red Wing, MN, Stanley, ND, Havre MT, Sandpoint, ID, and dozens of other towns, connecting those folks with the outside world.  Other than driving, which for many is not an option, there's no other alternative. There's no airline service to these places!

There are perhaps 100 such places served by Amtrak.  Why shpuld our tx money favor those 100 towns over the 10,000 or more not near an amtrak stop.

And is Amtrak really serving those towns ?  How far ahead do you have to make a reservation ?  In those halcyon days of rail travel, you could just got down to  the station and get on the train - no reservation needed.  I've sat in the aisle on my suitcase traveling on those trains to get home for Thanksgiving and Christmas, but I didn't have to know days ahead when I was going to travel - very ionconvenient for a student or a soldier on leave.

Dominic Mazoch posted:

One other issue with HSR, at least in Texas. It might be one of those days where the heat index is through the roof.  A/C units ate running at full.   A HST system, could, send the state into blackout conditions.

Don't you have a lot of sunshine down there in Texas.  Just add money to the construction budget for a lot of solar power arrays and a huge bank of battereies for nights and cloudy days.

We all know that the "big" Amtrak trains lose money.  They have from day one.  The thing that bothers me is that once they go away it will be nearly impossible to ever get them back.

There are people that depend on those trains as with all  Amtrak service.  The ones who ride those trains aren't all vacationers and they don't all ride from Chi. to LA when they get on the Southwest Chief.  

Another thing is that feeder airline fares are subsidized.  Nothing new there. So, why does Amtrak keep getting kicked around?  There are people who, for various reasons, cannot fly.  I feel that having an alternative means of getting around is a good thing and I wish Amtrak had more support with more routes in this country providing the sort of service that's seen in other developed countries.   We just can't seem to make up our minds where we are going as a nation and this is a great example.  

breezinup posted:

FORMER OGR CEO - RETIRED posted:

When traveling for business, I need a trip length measured in hours, not days. 

Time is money...

Could be a different story if HSR is ever developed, at least in some markets.

HSR advocates argue that the throughput (in terms of numbers of people moved from place to place for a given investment) provided by high-speed rail far outpaces those provided by highways or airports. In the chart, the US High Speed Rail Association depicts how high-speed rail offers significant time savings compared with flying or driving between downtown San Francisco and downtown Los Angeles in California.

That chart looks pretty good IF you are starting out from pretty close to the station, and your destination is pretty close to the station.  If not, the time and money spent starts to escalate quickly, AND the chart assumes that whatever you are carrying is suitable as luggage.

Dieselbob posted:

breezinup posted:

FORMER OGR CEO - RETIRED posted:

When traveling for business, I need a trip length measured in hours, not days. 

Time is money...

Could be a different story if HSR is ever developed, at least in some markets.

HSR advocates argue that the throughput (in terms of numbers of people moved from place to place for a given investment) provided by high-speed rail far outpaces those provided by highways or airports. In the chart, the US High Speed Rail Association depicts how high-speed rail offers significant time savings compared with flying or driving between downtown San Francisco and downtown Los Angeles in California.

That chart looks pretty good IF you are starting out from pretty close to the station, and your destination is pretty close to the station.  If not, the time and money spent starts to escalate quickly, AND the chart assumes that whatever you are carrying is suitable as luggage.

A lot of people live a long way from airports, too - it's no different. You have to get to and from the airport as well, with the costs involved. As for the luggage situation with airplanes, well ..........

Rail transit also generally has the increased comfort factor over airline travel with more spacious seating. And unlike an automobile or a plane, you can easily stand up and stretch your legs.

We have at least two long distance Amtrak runs in Pennsylvania.  East-West kinda.   

The Pennsylvanian. Points west/Pittsburgh/points east to Philadelphia.   Car via PA turnpike I76 (Pittsburgh to Phily, north subs. about 5 1/2 hrs). 

The Capitol Limited. Points west/or east/ Pittsburgh/ over the mountains eventually to Washington DC.  Car via PA turnpike I76 and I 70 south about the same 4 to 5 hrs. 

Note that traffic, I76 (Turnpike), and I70 has become much more intense the last few years.  Eventually Baltimore/Washington DC you access the dreaded I95. (speed average, may be, 30 mph at times). 

DC area has other rail transit. I think. 

Recently Allegheny County/Pittsburgh airport authority announced a 2 billion dollar terminal make-over. Most interesting design, that eliminates the people mover land side/ air side.  Air planes are not going away. IMO. 

Could be wrong and often, Mike CT.  

jhz563 posted:

Don't know if this would be covered, but just this past weekend took the auto-train north bound.

Yes I was on vacation, returning with my family, and simply didn't feel like driving.  I could have made it the same amount of time as driving plus had to be there early and then of course wait for the car to be unloaded.  Overall a very good trip.  Left on time and arrived an hour early.  Traveling as a family of five I figure the difference was about an extra $200 to $250 to not have to drive. Off set costs being gas, hotel for family of five and two meals.  Tolls were insignificant.

This was not peak time and the train was still huge.  15 passenger cars and 20 auto carriers.  This included one cafe car and 1 dining car, all modern bi-level equipment.  We slept in the seats, the actual room cost tipped the scales too far for me.

Arrival and departure were both efficient.  Interestingly a staffer takes a narrated walk-around video of each car to be loaded, noting pre-existing scratches and dings. A soft magnet identifies your car.  Once you check in you get one boarding pass per party and meal tickets. No wasted paper for individual tickets.  the only thing would be a little better would be the ability to select meal seatings when ordering your tickets.  Seating time selection is first come first serve.

The amount of room available is fantastic.  Two bags a piece onboard if desired.  Bathrooms had handicapped options and also a midsized room with a baby changing station.  I used this one the most so my pre-school aged kids could do their business and I still had a place to stand.  Onboard staff was very nice.  The temperature in our car was getting very warm at one point and the attendant was able to reset the compressor to get the hvac working better, no other issues.  

Two plug 115 volt outlet at each seat so charging electronics wasn't a problem.  I was also able to use my cpap through the night so I didn't keep every one else up. ( I snore like a chain saw!)

My 13 yr old was able to use a table in the cafe car in the evening to crank out some home work.  Overall very good experience.

A playground while waiting was greatly appreciated.

Some extra wheel sets and truck assemblies 

Our car was #5212.  The assigned car number is not the same as the physical number.  Here is 5243

Car 5243 was hard painted as 32073

Florida waiting area

Disc brakes

They thought the idling engine was too loud!

Smile nice for the picture!!  (Tables not meant for five - made it work)

Lorton VA playground not nearly as nice

Lorton waiting room.  They announce which cars are ready to pick up and put them on number boards. 

 

I hope this service doesn't go away.  It is really a nice way to travel.  If I was traveling for business and was going to be on either end for a long period of time that made it impractical to rent a car I would consider this for business.

Your Post illustrates why Amtrak long-distance service must be saved. Your kids will remember this experience and hopefully will someday be able to give their kids the same kind of experience. Some of my fondest childhood/teenage memories are of riding trains.

Lew

breezinup posted:

FORMER OGR CEO - RETIRED posted:

When traveling for business, I need a trip length measured in hours, not days. 

Time is money...

What?

So what's the "RETIRED" thing doing in the title?  

I stepped down from the OGR CEO position on September 1, 2018. I still do some of the IT and admin work and consult with the guys a bit, but I am officially "retired" from OGR now.

When I have to travel long distance,  Amtrak is not on the list. As Hot Water said above, there is no way I'm spending multiple DAYS on a train to go cross country.

When The Lovely and Gracious Linda and I travel now, we do it in this Land Yacht, otherwise named our "Wheel Estate." It is MUCH nicer than anything Amtrak has to offer, and almost as fast.

WOW! Didn't realize this topic was getting so much traction (pun intended).

When I was a kid I remember my Dad saying how upset the Alcoa guys were when forced from the train to the tin bird. Alcoa is and was headquartered in Pittsburgh. The Alcoa Building was a short walk from Pen Station. Even then Alcoa was heavily international so executives frequently needed to travel to NYC (hub of international trade). They would walk from their offices over to the station after a meal somewhere and climb aboard a Pullman which was sitting on a stub track at the station. When ready the Porter would make up their bed and they would turn in. During the night the car was switched into the Broadway and away they all went. They would get off at Penn Station in NYC, grab a nice breakfast and walk to the Alcoa offices. Same thing for the (nighttime) return trip to the Burgh.

When told to go by air instead they had to get a taxi out to the airport in the early morning (before rush hour slowed traffic to a crawl), hope they didn't have to fly through rough weather, arrive at the airport and have to take a taxi for the commute into NYC. Return was by Red Eye while trying to get a bit of sleep sitting upright in a cramped seat. Then go to work in a few hours with very little sleep.

Lew

Take Amtrak 3-4 trips a year, mainly to Williamsburg VA to see the grandkids and once a year on the Silver Star to visit my brother and his wife. Things can't get much worse--the "food" in the cafe car on the NE regional is over priced and basically inedible, a cup of coffee is now $3.50. The Silver Star lost its diner a couple of years ago so you have passengers lining up at the cafe car. We now take food with us to eat in our bedroom. Of course all the accommodations involve getting into an upper berth which my wife still can do.

My neurologist has forbidden me to fly and while that's an impressive RV I really can't see myself driving all the way to Florida.

We've booked a trip on the VIA Ocean for this May. Got a "cabin" as they call it with a twin bed. Cafe car and diner. And while most of the Budd equipment has been shifted to the Continental to Vancouver the Ocean carries a Park class dome observation-lounge car. Really looking forward to this trip. (Except for the Amtrak Adirondack which usually takes over 12 hours NYC-Montreal, coach only and the wonderful cafe car.

Some of us really need to be able to take a train and I'd be willing to pay more for a decent experience. Its not just the ride.

Rich: NICE RV, but if I am not mistaken, don't you also own a twin turbo-prop aircraft with full avionics?

I read an interesting article in our local paper about China's expanding high speed rail system. It is impressive, however the article pointed out that it was easy for the autocratic government to lay out routes and build without all of the legal obstacles railroads in the USA would face.

Also, such impressive infrastructure is very expensive and China is going way into debt to finance it. Their national debt of 33 trillion (in US dollars) is 50% more than our 22 trillion. China is taking a huge risk carrying this much debt (as is the USA).

As expensive as infrastructure is to build, it also costs a tremendous amount to maintain, and maintenance is often the first cut made when the economy hits a downdraft. 

The great advantage that emerging economies have is that they are building their infrastructure with state of the art equipment. Here, we are patching up 100 year old infrastructure and true modernization is only done in isolated locations. The current regulations in the USA make construction of new high speed rail links between cities cost prohibitive for entrepreneurs. 

It's nice to fantasize about a 200 mph NY - Miami east coast dedicated high speed line. 6 hours from Penn Station to Miami, or 8 hours for a "local" with stops in major cities along the way, with linked light rail to airports. The technology exists, but the funding, and the national will (especially given the current crop of politicians in the USA) doesn't.

Dominic Mazoch posted:

One other issue with HSR, at least in Texas. It might be one of those days where the heat index is through the roof.  A/C units ate running at full.   A HST system, could, send the state into blackout conditions.

Ho ho. Good one!

So I guess they're also going to have to park the 163 electric train units that the DART (Dallas Area Rapid Transit) system currently has in operation. 

FORMER OGR CEO - RETIRED post

 

When I have to travel long distance,  Amtrak is not on the list. As Hot Water said above, there is no way I'm spending multiple DAYS on a train to go cross country.

 

I enjoy my coast to coast Amtrak travel, Yes.......I can drive about as fast but can't cat nap while moving. I take Amtrak LD travel for what it is...an adventure.  An RV is nice....but today's large number of idiots on the interstate I do not miss. If you have held a CDL or like and have many more miles than average you know the idiots I mean. To each his own.

I'd much rather take long distance Amtrak, then drive a bus across country. Darn sure not going to fly. I want nothing to do with driving to the airport, parking, security people, crowds, small seats , sitting still, and not seeing anything.  I am not in a hurry, my train trip is a part of my vacation. The destination is just part of my trip.  If I ever go to Europe, which I probably won't,  It will be the 35 minute drive to Amtrak free parking then to NYC and get on board a ship,  I was even thinking by container ship, automobile does not figure into my plans until I get home.

Clem 

Clem

You could always take the Queen Mary, makes several crossing a year sailing from Brooklyn as she's too big for the passenger ship terminal on the west side of Manhattan.

My wife did this last summer as she was born in Southampton and felt that was the only way to "go home".

breezinup posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

One other issue with HSR, at least in Texas. It might be one of those days where the heat index is through the roof.  A/C units ate running at full.   A HST system, could, send the state into blackout conditions.

Ho ho. Good one!

So I guess they're also going to have to park the 163 electric train units that the DART (Dallas Area Rapid Transit) system currently has in operation. 

About two summers ago, the people who were running the state grid were warning the people of the state that power usage was approaching gird limits.  If power usage did not drop, the grid managers could institute rolling blackouts.

Actually, at a public meeting I did ask about the above possibility from Texas Central.  Basic answer was no answer.  

But due to the speed of such a train, they must use a lot of power.  I have heard to double the speed of a particular item, one needs to SQUARE the amout of engery needed to move the item. And that is for each speed increase....   

And a power blackout could ground the fleets of either DART and/or Houston METRO.

clem k posted:

I'd much rather take long distance Amtrak, then drive a bus across country. Darn sure not going to fly. I want nothing to do with driving to the airport, parking, security people, crowds, small seats , sitting still, and not seeing anything.  I am not in a hurry, my train trip is a part of my vacation. The destination is just part of my trip.  If I ever go to Europe, which I probably won't,  It will be the 35 minute drive to Amtrak free parking then to NYC and get on board a ship,  I was even thinking by container ship, automobile does not figure into my plans until I get home.

Clem 

No fly for me!!!! No fear....hate being treated worst than animals.....which on flights are treated pretty well. 

The difference is, whatever you think about how you are treated by the airlines, in most cases it lasts for a couple of hours.  I can put up with quite a bit for a few hours, as opposed to being locked into a passenger train for DAYS.  Personally, I'm a driver.  I LOVE to drive out on the open road, and I LOVE being the boss of my trip.  If I want to go, I go.  If I want to stop, I stop.  If I want to pull off the road and take a picture, I do.  If I see an interesting restaurant, I stop and eat.  My number one option is always to drive.  If I don't have the time, I fly.  Going by train, which gives me neither control, speed or flexibility offers no appeal to me.

Dieselbob posted:

 I LOVE to drive and I LOVE being the boss of my trip.  

On our trips to Boston, on Amtrak, I love looking out the window at the car and truck traffic crawling trough urban areas while I read my book. Also, it was fun driving to St. Augustine, Florida last year in two days of pouring rain.

From the Amtrak/VIA live map, Westbound Empire Builder, both over 10 hours late, Eastbound Empire Builder both over 3 hours late.

California Zepher, either direction between 90 minutes and 3 hours late.

Southwest Chief, a little better between 90 minutes and 2 hours late in either direction.

Better yet, take a look at this live map and decide for yourself if long distance service is really serving anyone.

https://asm.transitdocs.com/map

Failing to meet the schedule has been an Amtrak problem since its inception. Whereas previously dispatchers were careful not to stick the Varnish (because Boss said so), now that all long distance Amtrak runs on someone else's railroad there are basically no such strictures.

Lew

Tinplate Art posted:

Rich: NICE RV, but if I am not mistaken, don't you also own a twin turbo-prop aircraft with full avionics?

Good Lord NO!

I fly a nice King Air 350 for its owner, and it's equipped with the Garmin G1000 avionics suite, but I'm just the airborne bus driver. I don't own it. I get paid to fly it. There's no way I could afford to own a $2+ million aircraft.

Flying this thing does sort of spoil you for the slow pace of train travel.  We routinely fly this aircraft from northeastern Ohio to Key West in 3-1/2 hours. Going there again on Thursday. 2,100 horsepower (1,050 a side) moves us right along...

necrails posted:

From the Amtrak/VIA live map, Westbound Empire Builder, both over 10 hours late, Eastbound Empire Builder both over 3 hours late.

 

https://asm.transitdocs.com/map

 

I watched that happen with the Builders last night. I suspect that the westbound 7 was held between Wis Dells and Tomah on the siding and the eastbound 8 at Lacrosse for HOURS due to weather in the area, lots of snow and high winds. I must say, that for the Builder, they were running pretty well until that wicked cold snap back in January, and all the Snow in Seattle earlier this month. They've been so screwed up since then, missing entire trains at least once a week or maybe twice. Just when I think they have it back together, it happens again. 

Maybe the CP was just letting the freights go through last night, as passengers are no longer considered a "perishable commodity". What are they going to do, complain to Amtrak.  A cynical person would say the railroads are doing this on purpose, to make their case for dumping the service, especially since they have a very sympathetic administration in power. My cynical factor is about 75%. I believe Congress has the final say on this, and so far the trains are being funded.

As a result, very unusual thing happened this morning. The two hour late #8 met the ten hour late #7 at the depot in St Paul. The #7 was sitting just in view of the camera, as the #8 pulled in on the track next to it. This happened around 9 AM. On time is normally 7 AM for the eastbound #8 and 10 PM for the westbound #7.

St Paul Union Depot, AKA SPUD, has two rail cams on Youtube. Combine that with the website that has all the Amtrak trains listed above, and a thing called ATCS monitor, which gives users a dispatcher's panel view of train traffic, I can literally see them coming miles away, so I can watch then come in, on the cameras.

SPUD camera 1

SPUD camera 2

If you haven't noticed yet, I'm an Amtrak Empire Builder junkie. It's what I model.

Big_Boy_4005 posted:

necrails posted:

From the Amtrak/VIA live map, Westbound Empire Builder, both over 10 hours late, Eastbound Empire Builder both over 3 hours late.

 

https://asm.transitdocs.com/map

 

 

Maybe the CP was just letting the freights go through last night, as passengers are no longer considered a "perishable commodity". What are they going to do, complain to Amtrak.  A cynical person would say the railroads are doing this on purpose, to make their case for dumping the service, especially since they have a very sympathetic administration in power. My cynical factor is about 75%. I believe Congress has the final say on this, and so far the trains are being funded.

Hate to tell you but I rode the Maple Leaf under a very "Amtrak Friendly" administration (President and both houses of Congress at the time) and thought CSX screwed their Amtrak tenant when we went in the hole and sat there for half an hour to let a trash train through. 

So you can leave your partisan politics at the door. 

The Empire builder seems to have a following, at least for those who frequent the great Northwest/Glacier National Park.  It is a drive.  Return trip east.  Early morning I left Apgar Camp Ground, a 12 hr. day on the road to Fargo, South Dakota, over night.  Day two, on a redirect, I wanted to cross the Michigan Saginaw Bridge, another long day, Overnight Michigan.  Alternative to the Upper peninsula of Michigan, which is scenic, and very rural, is two cities, Milwaukee, Wisconsin and Chicago, Illinois, interesting traffic at best. Chicago traffic some of the worst I've seen.  Returned to western PA the third day. from Michigan after a visit with my one remaining Great Aunt. 

 From Western Pa to Glacier National Park, there is an Amtrak depot, lodging with in walking distance of the depot, and rentals available.  Probably at the least 4 or 5 days.  Amtrak never seemed to be real good at talking hours.   IMO, Mike CT.

When does Amtrak long distance stop?   A lot of people frequenting the Facebook Glacier National Park sight seem intent on taking the train?? 

The Amtrak station East Glacier National Park has an old historic rural park look.  So I guess they would be taking down the Amtrak signs. 

So ends the Empire builder.  

Rule292 posted:

Big_Boy_4005 posted:

necrails posted:

From the Amtrak/VIA live map, Westbound Empire Builder, both over 10 hours late, Eastbound Empire Builder both over 3 hours late.

 

https://asm.transitdocs.com/map

 

 

Maybe the CP was just letting the freights go through last night, as passengers are no longer considered a "perishable commodity". What are they going to do, complain to Amtrak.  A cynical person would say the railroads are doing this on purpose, to make their case for dumping the service, especially since they have a very sympathetic administration in power. My cynical factor is about 75%. I believe Congress has the final say on this, and so far the trains are being funded.

Hate to tell you but I rode the Maple Leaf under a very "Amtrak Friendly" administration (President and both houses of Congress at the time) and thought CSX screwed their Amtrak tenant when we went in the hole and sat there for half an hour to let a trash train through. 

So you can leave your partisan politics at the door. 

 

Gee, a whole half hour, more than ten years ago. I'm talking about double digit hourly delays, and outright full cancellations of trains. Apples and oranges in my book.

There was nothing partisan about that comment. Just stating the facts about about the current management. This entire topic is based on a Wall Street Journal article that said Amtrak wanted to drop the long distance trains, or did I just make that up?

Here we go again with the Empire Builder. The new #7 is already four hours late, and it's not even on the map in Chicago yet. If they wait much longer, it'll be a scratch. The #8 is three hours late arriving. It's possible that they don't have a train set available, but I think they have six sets, and when things are running correctly there are only supposed to be four out on the line at any given time. Right now there are just three. Recently there have been five at a time on occasion. There should always be one in Chicago ready to go because they have 23 hours to get it ready for the next day (on schedule). The eastbound arrives an hour after the westbound departs.

The only problem with the map is, it only tells us what is happening, it doesn't tell us why.

The BNSF is my favorite railroad, but when it comes to Amtrak, I'm not so sure anymore. A few months ago there was a topic on the forum regarding the Southwest Chief, and how Amtrak wanted to cut service right out of the middle of the route, from Dodge City, KS to somewhere like Albuquerque, NM. What I'm getting at here is, I have never heard any rumblings from the UP or any of the other four host railroads (CSX, NS, CP, CN) about ditching Amtrak. BNSF only has the two routes. Is Amtrak's money not green enough for Warren Buffett? 

I have had the opportunity to speak to a retired BNSF executive a few times in the last year. One conversation was about the Builder, where he said it was only running three times a week. I had to correct him and told him that it was still running daily, but his comment has stuck with me since then. Maybe that's why I keep watching so intently, to see if it comes to pass. I even had my laptop with me and tried to show him the map, but he doesn't see too well anymore.

Maybe he sees the future?

I was pleasantly surprised to find the Amtrak Rail Pass program is still in place.  We took a cross-country tour for $400 p/p twenty years ago.  The current rate is $689.  Of course that's for coach and bedroom upgrade would add substantially.  Still, not too bad for thirty days of wondrous adventure.  Or abject torture for some people here. 

Farmer_Bill posted:

Maybe he sees the future?

Obviously he heard something from the inside, so this could indeed be the future, but not yet. This why I'm on Builder watch. No #7 tonight, that window has closed. No point starting six hours late. Try again tomorrow.

Doesn't look like there's a new #8 coming out of Seattle either. Today is Monday. No service!

Farmer_Bill posted:

I was pleasantly surprised to find the Amtrak Rail Pass program is still in place.  We took a cross-country tour for $400 p/p twenty years ago.  The current rate is $689.  Of course that's for coach and bedroom upgrade would add substantially.  Still, not too bad for thirty days of wondrous adventure.  Or abject torture for some people here. 

As long as there's a way to get from coast to coast in the system. The price increase isn't really that bad. I would think with a pass you might not want to spend that many nights on the train anyway. You'd want to ride and get off in a number of places. Just upgrade to a room a few times as necessary.

I know I can't ride the train anymore. I'm on dialysis, and have to be places every M-W-F, without fail. This version of Amtrak is out of the question for that. I'm a driver anyway. I need my freedom like a previous poster said further up the page.

"I would think with a pass you might not want to spend that many nights on the train anyway. You'd want to ride and get off in a number of places. Just upgrade to a room a few times as necessary."

Yes, that's exactly what we did. Even I will admit more than three days straight on a train would be too much!!

Yeah Bill, that's why they give you 30 days. Only a lunatic would spend all of them on the train.

BTW, it's official, I went to Amtrak's website, and #7 and #8 are cancelled today. I'd hate to be holding one of those tickets, and need to be somewhere. Of course, the airlines do that all the time, but usually there's another flight unless it's weather related. The Amtrak long distance trains, it's one chance per day, period.

He might be confusing the EB with the NORTH COAST, a discontinued CHI-SEA train which did run try weakly under Amtrak.

Dominic Mazoch posted:

He might be confusing the EB with the NORTH COAST, a discontinued CHI-SEA train which did run try weakly under Amtrak.

Nah, I trust that he really meant the current Empire Builder. Didn't the old (long gone) Amtrak North Coast (Hiawatha?)use the NP tracks anyway? Different route parallel to that of the GN which the Builder uses.

There has also been talk of adding a Chicago to St Paul round trip daily, which might make real sense if the full Builder was three times a week. That run is not "long distance" at around 400 miles. 

FORMER OGR CEO - RETIRED posted:

Tinplate Art posted:

Rich: NICE RV, but if I am not mistaken, don't you also own a twin turbo-prop aircraft with full avionics?

Good Lord NO!

I fly a nice King Air 350 for its owner, and it's equipped with the Garmin G1000 avionics suite, but I'm just the airborne bus driver. I don't own it. I get paid to fly it. There's no way I could afford to own a $2+ million aircraft.

Flying this thing does sort of spoil you for the slow pace of train travel.  We routinely fly this aircraft from northeastern Ohio to Key West in 3-1/2 hours. Going there again on Thursday. 2,100 horsepower (1,050 a side) moves us right along...

That's a beautiful King Air, always loved those planes.   As I learned from my dad having owned 4 different planes, the final a CJ circa 1992 with modern avionics and navigation, the purchase price is the easiest point.  Cost of of operations is THE killer.  I laugh when I here people with a little bit of money talk about owning their own plane and having it piloted.  They think because the price of entry is X that they're all good, Y never even comes into the equation but when it does, reality puts them back on the ground quick.