There is a Fox news bulletin on a Amtrak derailment with some of the cars off the track and one on its side. Injuries reported.
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Sad news
Empire Builder in Montana. AP story on it:
https://apnews.com/article/lif...68ca68b455eb23b49cef
David
The latest, three killed. God take their souls.
I used Google Maps to check out 48.558390, -110.816270, which seems to match the signal and background images from the news reports. It looks to me, that the switch was thrown under the third passenger car as the train passed.
Apparently some riders noted a 'rough ride' in one of the mid-rear cars, which might indicate a damaged wheel that derailed at the East Buelow switch. If you're familiar with the Builder, it was the rear 'Portland' part of the train that derailed and tipped, apparently the engines and the main 'Seattle' part remained on the rails (or at least were upright).
There a You Tube interview available with one of the passengers:
@RogerofSandwich posted:It looks to me, that the switch was thrown under the third passenger car as the train passed.
How did that happen? Do you know a lot about railroad signals and dual-controlled switches, and how they are interlocked de-energized, and timed out, whenever the circuit is occupied? Please enlighten us.
@wjstix posted:Apparently some riders noted a 'rough ride' in one of the mid-rear cars, which might indicate a damaged wheel that derailed at the East Buelow switch. If you're familiar with the Builder, it was the rear 'Portland' part of the train that derailed and tipped, apparently the engines and the main 'Seattle' part remained on the rails (or at least were upright).
Article in today's New York Times mentioned the "rough ride," suggesting something broke internally. Also, hot temperatures might have softened a rail.
Guess we'll have to wait until all the investigations are over for a definitive anser.
@Andrew-Porter posted:Article in today's New York Times mentioned the "rough ride," suggesting something broke internally. Also, hot temperatures might have softened a rail.
In all my years of working in the railroad industry, I have NEVER heard of "hot temperatures might of softened the rail"!!!!!
Guess we'll have to wait until all the investigations are over for a definitive anser.
Hot temperatures may have softened the rail? Good God. Journalism is definitely dead.
That is one of the dumbest and most ignorant things I have ever seen reported. Are they really that stupid? Unfortunately, the answer is, "Yes."
Is it any wonder that no one trusts the media these days?
So sad that this claimed the lives of three people. Prayers to the families.
@Rich Melvin posted:Hot temperatures may have softened the rail? Good God. Journalism is definitely dead.
That is one of the dumbest and most ignorant things I have ever seen reported. Are they really that stupid? Unfortunately, the answer is, "Yes."
Is it any wonder that no one trusts the media these days?
Well, as an award-winning former news journalist and publisher, I trust the media.
No sure if you noticed, but there's this weird thing called "climate change" which fosters extreme temperatures, extreme rainfall, etc.
From the New York Times article:
"If the turbulence was more sudden, Saturday’s heat could also be to blame, said Russell Quimby, a retired accident investigator for the National Transportation Safety Board. Mr. Quimby said he suspects the train may have hit a section of the track that had buckled from overheating.
"'When that happens, the train can’t negotiate that tight little change in the curvature of the track, and it will run up over the rail and derail and fall over the side like you see in the pictures,” he said.
"Around the time of the accident, the temperature in Joplin peaked at 84 degrees. Railroad tracks are usually about 20 to 30 degrees hotter than the outside temperature, Mr. Quimby said, which “could be well above” what the tracks were designed to withstand."
@Andrew-Porter posted:Saturday’s heat could also be to blame, said Russell Quimby, a retired accident investigator for the National Transportation Safety Board. Mr. Quimby said he suspects the train may have hit a section of the track that had buckled from overheating."'When that happens, the train can’t negotiate that tight little change in the curvature of the track, and it will run up over the rail and derail and fall over the side like you see in the pictures,” he said.
"Around the time of the accident, the temperature in Joplin peaked at 84 degrees. Railroad tracks are usually about 20 to 30 degrees hotter than the outside temperature, Mr. Quimby said, which “could be well above” what the tracks were designed to withstand."
That seems really strange. 84 degrees is considered cool down here in South Florida, where mid 90's and higher for the past three summer months is the norm (we call it "weather" as opposed to "climate change"). None of our Amtrak, commuter, freight,or other engines seem to be derailing. Unless manufacturing techniques and materials are significantly different (which I doubt), I tend to agree with Rich Melvin and the others. Hopefully, a thorough investigation nails down the cause of this tragedy.
@Strap Hanger posted:That seems really strange. 84 degrees is considered cool down here in South Florida, where mid 90's and higher for the past three summer months is the norm (we call it "weather" as opposed to "climate change"). None of our Amtrak, commuter, freight,or other engines seem to be derailing. Unless manufacturing techniques and materials are significantly different (which I doubt), I tend to agree with Rich Melvin and the others. Hopefully, a thorough investigation nails down the cause of this tragedy.
Wonder how all those track thru Arizona survive. 
Well as a current broadcaster who works with "journalists" every day, I concur with Rich. Journalism... at the New York Times and all who use it as a "primary source", at the so-called "J-Schools", at the network level, and especially at the local level is, and has been dead for a very long time.
84 degree temps and heat kinks have been with the industry since its inception. This is nothing new.
Jon 
@Rich Melvin posted:Hot temperatures may have softened the rail? Good God. Journalism is definitely dead.
That is one of the dumbest and most ignorant things I have ever seen reported. Are they really that stupid? Unfortunately, the answer is, "Yes."
Is it any wonder that no one trusts the media these days?
The article quotes a retired investigator for the NTSB as saying that heat-induced buckling could be a factor in the accident. It says nothing at all about 'softening'.
Reading is definitely dead.
@Andrew-Porter posted:Well, as an award-winning former news journalist and publisher, I trust the media.
Well, that's your opinion. Certainly NOT mine.
No sure if you noticed, but there's this weird thing called "climate change" which fosters extreme temperatures, extreme rainfall, etc.
Don't know just what "climate change" has to do with "softening the rail". I've been on trains in the desert southwest where the wayside defect detectors read-off ambient temperatures in excess of 110 degrees F, and the rails did NOT "melt". Train speeds are reduced as the temps increase.
From the New York Times article:
"If the turbulence was more sudden, Saturday’s heat could also be to blame, said Russell Quimby, a retired accident investigator for the National Transportation Safety Board. Mr. Quimby said he suspects the train may have hit a section of the track that had buckled from overheating.
Now there you have it! The high heat (90 to 100 degrees" can, and does, cause the track structure to buckle, as the rails expand. Thus, train speeds are reduced as the heat temps increase.
"'When that happens, the train can’t negotiate that tight little change in the curvature of the track, and it will run up over the rail and derail and fall over the side like you see in the pictures,” he said.
"Around the time of the accident, the temperature in Joplin peaked at 84 degrees. Railroad tracks are usually about 20 to 30 degrees hotter than the outside temperature, Mr. Quimby said, which “could be well above” what the tracks were designed to withstand."
Sure sounds like this Mr. Quimby needs to educate himself a LOT more about track structures in VERY hot climates (I don't consider only 84 degrees all that hot, when the track structure in the desert southwest is exposed to air temps over 110 degrees).
@Andrew-Porter posted:Article in today's New York Times mentioned the "rough ride," suggesting something broke internally. Also, hot temperatures might have softened a rail.
Guess we'll have to wait until all the investigations are over for a definitive anser.
Back in 1995 when Chicago had multiple daily temperatures pushing past 100 degrees (and in the 80's at night,) I didn't see the rails on the Metra commuter line outside where I worked turning into Silly-Putty or looking like a Dali painting...
Rail steel is rolled at 1250 degrees centigrade. (2282 degrees Fahrenheit.) Temperatures of 80's, 90's, 100's is nothing to rail. Now rail expansion, bowing and sun kinks of rail is a different matter...
Rusty
@Andrew-Porter posted:Well, as an award-winning former news journalist and publisher, I trust the media.
No sure if you noticed, but there's this weird thing called "climate change" which fosters extreme temperatures, extreme rainfall, etc.
From the New York Times article:
"If the turbulence was more sudden, Saturday’s heat could also be to blame, said Russell Quimby, a retired accident investigator for the National Transportation Safety Board. Mr. Quimby said he suspects the train may have hit a section of the track that had buckled from overheating.
"'When that happens, the train can’t negotiate that tight little change in the curvature of the track, and it will run up over the rail and derail and fall over the side like you see in the pictures,” he said.
"Around the time of the accident, the temperature in Joplin peaked at 84 degrees. Railroad tracks are usually about 20 to 30 degrees hotter than the outside temperature, Mr. Quimby said, which “could be well above” what the tracks were designed to withstand."
I'm not as knowledgeable as Rich Melvin or Hot Water (Jack) about the engineering details of railroad equipment or ROW.
OTOH, being an engineer by education, training, and 34 years as such in the automotive industry, this sort of knee-jerk summary journalism naive speculation leaves me with only one response...
.
.
.
I'll accept that 'journalism' may not be clinically dead....yet. But unvetted publishing of this sort of BS shows it's festering....badly.
Sadly, you'll never see a retraction/correction published. It's truth...the 'gray lady' said so.
And, like everything else, traceable to "Climate Change".
As so it goes...ad nauseam.
Attachments
Okay, before we attempt to solve the cause(es?) of this derailment from the comfort of home, 
let's think about how many there could be. These are some of the causes of past derailments of passenger trains:
- Broken rail
- Broken frog
- Broken or missing joint bar and/or bolts
- End-battered rail or low joint
- Missing spikes, tie plates, or broken ties unable to retain spikes
- Insufficient or washed-out ballast
- Improper cross level
- Excessive speed
- Slid flat wheel building up a false flange
- Something falling off of this train or a preceding train
- Failure of a truck component
- Roller bearing retainer strap missing
- Track misalignment due to heat or insufficient maintenance, or excessive speed through turnout by a preceding train.
- Bent, broken, or improperly adjusted point rail of turnout
- Broken connecting rod on turnout
- Broken wheel or wheel flange
- Obstruction on track, especially at turnout
- Improperly installed, maintained, or repaired signal or dual controlled switch circuitry or mechanisms.
For us to solve the cause of derailment, one of us is going to have to head out to the Montana prairie and investigate the track, equipment, and signal system, and find evidence which will lead to identification of the root cause, as well as any contributing causes.
It's an awful derailment, and three lives have been cut short. Some of the injured may never fully recover. The investigation team will be able, by methodical examination, be able to determine how the derailment occurred, as well as how the likelihood of future incidents of a similar nature occurring can be prevented.
But we do all want to know, and soon, don't we?
