Another one Bites the dust

Bummer.

don't send them back. They'll never admit it, or blame you, or maybe....?

crumbling, poor rolling trucks??? | O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum (ogaugerr.com)

Part of the hobby I'm told.

BluelineC4, As DMASSO said that's a real bummer.

Ben , did you buys those at Dauzers on Dekalb Ave for 4.95, maybe they need a drop of oil LOL 😂

Glad you have the replacement frames  

Alex

Sheesh. It sure seems like Atlas is the leader in disintegrating trains.

I wonder if their H.O. stuff crumbles too. Sure would be easier to clean up.

I have a K line RS3 that the battery/ speaker cover completely disintegrated. That’s when I was educated about the zinc rot thing. It’ll be interesting to find out in the end just how many products were produced with this issue.

Same thing happened to me with some H21 hoppers recently. Unfortunately Atlas didn’t have any replacement frames anymore for a H21 hoppers

Don and Jim  It definitely is a bummer  I can barely keep the lights on spending so much on parts

Joe  Our problem was leaving them packed so long that we didnt realize they are junk

Alex  I dont care if you dipped them in Texas they are junk

RickO  You wont see it in HO because there isnt as much die cast in that scale

OBXtrainman    There are definitely a gaggle of products   The absolute worst one is the MTH P5 Box cab  A $500 hunk of cracks

MR-150  The H21 hopper has a different type of frame   There are two pieces  One on each end over the trucks and you may be in luck as I think I have a few stashed away somewhere  I will look for them and let you know

It took me a while to find those hoppers in Rutland. 3 out of the 5 I found were bad. New in the box. 2 just had the truck mount broke off. I was able to repair them. One was beyond hope. The 2 that were perfect had the same rd. Number.  I’ve had a couple others and went to Atlas’ archives and found they were all built in the same run in the mid 2000’s.

@obxtrainman posted:

I have a K line RS3 that the battery/ speaker cover completely disintegrated. That’s when I was educated about the zinc rot thing. It’ll be interesting to find out in the end just how many products were produced with this issue.

"In the end"...?  I'm afraid zinc rot, zinc pest, ...whatever name you choose...will never "end".  At least not as long as the products are made far, far away, without metallurgical analysis/control/concern, in a land of dynamic labor and sourcing.  It's not a guaranteed certainty, but it is so widespread among manufacturers in that environment that the odds are sometimes rather dismal that you'll just be lucky in your purchase to have avoided it...sooner or later.

"How many products were produced with this issue"??...If it's die cast from that land far, far away, it could easily find its way into your whatever treasure...rolling stock, freight or passenger, locomotives (diesel, steam, electric), accessories, ...you name it.

Zinc pest, as it's commonly called, was the bane of some Pre-War Lionel in-house production until the metallurgical anomaly was identified and corrected.   Dad's 1835E tender, ca mid-1930's, got bit...badly. (I've shown the photos in prior threads.)  Lionel stepped up and provided a pest-free replacement wiki-wiki.  Then 'the pest' seemed to disappear as an issue in this hobby...until we became obsessed with having our choo-choos made in that land far, far away.  No experience, no knowledge(?), no control,...no care..., pretty certain what happened thereafter.   The other exciting characteristic is that sometimes it manifests itself within the warranty period, but sometimes not until long after.  Oh joy.

Want more on this issue as it affects us all?.....search the Forum on "Zinc Pest".  Keep the aspirin and vino handy, pal.

3D printed replacements ?

Mr. BluelineC4,

Although I am not a fan of yours since you recently called my friend Alex M. a bum, in the interests of friendship, I bet my friend Ben Fiorello can fix your zinc pest rot problem. He is a smart and talented guy who I know bought extra replacement frames for just this sort of situation. In my opinion, Atlas should step up to the plate and take care of your problem.

Let me know if you would like Ben to help you.
Erol

Ben,

I would be happy to buy you a beer at the next York since you are spending so much on parts to reduce some of your costs.

Erol

I would have hit the "dislike" button on this thread if there was one because, well, it really stinks to read this.  Sorry Ben.

My stomach turns every time I read another thread about zinc pest.  It makes me think about how many freight cars I have stored away that haven't been examined since I originally purchased them.

Atlas--and all the other manufacturers/importers--should stand behind every single one of these items.  Why?  Because they're all very aware of the zinc pest issue yet they continue to pump products into the market produced with this low-quality "metal".

A big "thumbs down" if you ask me!

I got a prewar Lionel signal, and it had a lot of, and I assume zinc cracking. But still together. I decided to coat every crack with super glue. when dried you can't tell the glue is their...

has anybody ever tried that and  found out it either it worked or didn't? 

Queen

Has anyone ever seen a Lionel 18" Super Chief set that the truck frames haven't crumbled?

@RickO posted:

Sheesh. It sure seems like Atlas is the leader in disintegrating trains.

I wonder if their H.O. stuff crumbles too. Sure would be easier to clean up.

All of the manufacturers have pesty stuff out there. I have Williams with trucks, side frames, pilots that had it. I have a premier Veranda with both smoke units that have it and a gondola that had pesty trucks. I had K-Line freight cars with pesty trucks and wheelsets and a loco with bad wheels.

Most smaller scales use plastic so they don't have this issue. I have lots of N-scale stuff, lots by Atlas, and I don't have this issue with any of it. I wish O-gauge manufacturers would use plastic on their stuff so the O-gauge community wouldn't have to deal with this issue any longer.

This topic comes up a couple of times a year and it doesn't have to be like this.

Ben, I agree, Bummer!!

I think I'm glad I sold my Atlas hoppers, because they were so heavy on my steep grades.  Maybe mine were made later than yours.  Now I am wondering if the problem will show up on my Steam Era Classics boxcars.  I'm afraid to look! 

@Mark Boyce posted:

Ben, I agree, Bummer!!

I think I'm glad I sold my Atlas hoppers, because they were so heavy on my steep grades.  Maybe mine were made later than yours.  Now I am wondering if the problem will show up on my Steam Era Classics boxcars.  I'm afraid to look! 

I've got three Atlas O USRA steel rebuilt boxcars. I've had them for a couple years without issue.

@Lou1985 posted:

I've got three Atlas O USRA steel rebuilt boxcars. I've had them for a couple years without issue.

I have 60 55 ton Hoppers and 40 h21 hoppers. I have had 12 so far go bad. 8 55 tonners and 4 h21.   It’s not the model but the year produced that has the problem.   I have seen it on ps1 box cars and reefers too.  All made between 2005 and 2007

@bluelinec4 posted:

I have 60 55 ton Hoppers and 40 h21 hoppers. I have had 12 so far go bad. 8 55 tonners and 4 h21.   It’s not the model but the year produced that has the problem.   I have seen it on ps1 box cars and reefers too.  All made between 2005 and 2007

Yeah my stuff is newer. Made in the last 5 years or so.

I think mine are newer also; unless they sat on the store shelves a while.

"I would have hit the "dislike" button on this thread if there was one because, well, it really stinks to read this.  Sorry Ben."  I hit the like button because I thought it was good you were sharing the issue then changed my mind because there is nothing to like about expensive, "top of the line" merchandise falling apart due to manufacturing flaws or defects.

"No experience, no knowledge(?), no control,...no care...,"   Quality control isn't just looking at one in a thousand of the finished product as it is slid into it's packaging, it should include materials making the parts that make the assemblies that are assembled in a proper fashion to provide a finished product free of blemishes and defects that functions as intended and designed.  We all know that this doesn't exist in todays world yet we are forced to pay premium prices for products that may or may not work and may be damaged right out of the box.

Ben I truly feel bad that you are subjected to this and have to anticipate the potential that it will eventually happen to the remaining 48.

Personally, my experience with this has been hit and miss with the Lionel Standard O trucks.  It’s upsetting to sell one and have the buyer report that they fell apart in shipping.
Alan

@coach joe posted:

"I would have hit the "dislike" button on this thread if there was one because, well, it really stinks to read this.  Sorry Ben."  I hit the like button because I thought it was good you were sharing the issue then changed my mind because there is nothing to like about expensive, "top of the line" merchandise falling apart due to manufacturing flaws or defects.

Coach Joe, I did the exact same thing!  I first hit the Like button, but the more I thought about it, I couldn’t bring myself to “like” a thread about this recurring product quality issue!

It's simply criminal that the various model train manufacturers charge an arm and a leg for their product and then to see it literally disintegrate before your very eyes.     

I would recommend a simple boycott of their products until issues like this are addressed.

Who needs a set of $60 - $85 dollar boxcars or hoppers without a frame or a set of trucks?! 

To avoid a shark attack, stay out of the water(*).

To avoid the pest, do not use zinc.

Why is Zinc still being used in trains?

(*) SURVIVOR TV seriets Survivor handbook.

@Dominic Mazoch posted:

Why is Zinc still being used in trains?

Because some still view it as a hallmark of a quality item. I haven't read anything to support this reasoning. The interesting thing is that everyone complains about "pot metal" in everything else, including cheap household items, but gladly pay top dollar for it in a high priced model train.

@coach joe posted:

"I would have hit the "dislike" button on this thread if there was one because, well, it really stinks to read this.  Sorry Ben."  I hit the like button because I thought it was good you were sharing the issue then changed my mind because there is nothing to like about expensive, "top of the line" merchandise falling apart due to manufacturing flaws or defects.

"No experience, no knowledge(?), no control,...no care...,"   Quality control isn't just looking at one in a thousand of the finished product as it is slid into it's packaging, it should include materials making the parts that make the assemblies that are assembled in a proper fashion to provide a finished product free of blemishes and defects that functions as intended and designed.  We all know that this doesn't exist in todays world yet we are forced to pay premium prices for products that may or may not work and may be damaged right out of the box.

Ben I truly feel bad that you are subjected to this and have to anticipate the potential that it will eventually happen to the remaining 48.

You basically hit the nail on the head, quality isn't about inspections, those only catch the most glaring of problems. Back in the 'good old days' of GM and the other US manufacturers, they spent 50% of their time rebuilding cars coming off the assembly lines (and a lot of floor space) because of poor quality control and then in the field, well, there is a reason they gained the reputation they had. The problem is that for many products the manufacturing has gone backwards and it shows in the quality of many mass produced products done for 'cheapest price, always'.

With the trains we are buying they are sourcing components from the cheapest source (likely in China), the chips and boards are made and assembled there, and it is kind of like the old auto industry (dead now around 25 years). If the part can be used to assemble the train, they use it, if the board plugs into the harness, they put it in there. If a part doesn't fit, it goes into a bin or dumpster. If the engine starts up on being powered up, lights up, passes basic checks, it is done.  If a truck already showed signs on Zinc pest, it would go into the garbage, no one asks why it is like that from the vendor. If they get a lot of bad parts, they refuse to pay the vendor, they ship them new ones.

I am sure they are checked out when they get here, too, and I am sure some of them are fixed and repaired because screws fell out, etc. The real problem with this kind of thing is you end up with marginal parts that fail fast, that can't be found this way.

Really the only difference between the trains we are buying and the cheap mass produced stuff you buy at Walmart is likely the profit margin, that cheap fry pan is made in the millions so if they make 1 buck on each, that Lionel Engine sells in the thousands so the profit margin is a lot higher/unit (Just to throw a number out there, a 2000 grand engine might cost them 800 to produce hypothetically).

Other makers of high end products use lean production and quality techniques, for example Apple when producing its phones and tablets and such, so the quality is higher there for a comparable priced product (and yes, the margins on those items is large, too, last I checked the prod cost on a an Apple Phone was like around 200 bucks).

And basically it is what it is, not likely to change because it is the dynamic of this market.

@Mike D posted:

Most smaller scales use plastic so they don't have this issue. I have lots of N-scale stuff, lots by Atlas, and I don't have this issue with any of it. I wish O-gauge manufacturers would use plastic on their stuff so the O-gauge community wouldn't have to deal with this issue any longer.

Uh, yeah, Mike, let’s see, I have more than 200 locomotives and more than 500 pieces of rolling stock in N scale, including diecast steam and diesel engines from:

Arnold Rapido (USRA Pacific, 1960s),

Arnold (S2 diesel switcher, 1980s),

Minitrix (0-6-0 based on the Pennsy B6, 1970s)

Roco (BR80 0-6-0T steam switcher, 1980s)

Rivarossi (the B&O C-16a marketed simply as an 0-4-0 for Atlas),

Roundhouse Products (2-8-0, 1980s)

Graham Farish (six steamers and the Class 08 diesel shunter, all from the 1970s to 1990s),

Model Power (4-6-2, 4-4-0 steamers and FP7 diesel circa 2000-2005),

Atlas (the two-truck shay and the mid-19th-century American, both since 2000),

Bachmann (including its original 1970s, loosely modeled A5 0-4-0 switcher, diecast reissue of formerly cheap plastic steamer J-class, and recent models of the K4 Pacific, J3a Hudson and the Pere Marquette 1225 Berkshire, plus the 4-6-0 steamer identical to its Williams model),

Broadway Limited (heavy Mikado and light Pacific). A diecast Big Boy is coming this fall.

That’s 23 of my 49 steamers.

In addition, all of my steamers and almost all of my diesels have diecast frames, as do more than half of my freight cars.

Zinc pest problems I have had in N scale? Zero.

Number of broken, warped or heat damaged plastic models over the years? About a dozen.

There are many more N scale diecast steamers I haven’t bought as manufacturers increase the volume of diecast models for an appreciative market.

O gauge manufacturers are having Chinese subcontractor supply problems with inferior zinc alloy castings. There is no question about it. All of this has been covered on the forum. China seemingly could care less to correct this problem, and American manufacturers are either too tolerant or too complicit.

Now, name one steam or diesel body shell, the work of the main contractors, that has succumbed to zinc pest in the past 30 years.

Now name all the diecast castings in O gauge in the postwar era that have had no problem with zinc pest. Go ahead, I’ll wait for the book-length entries for you to compile.

Plastic replaced diecast in smaller scales because it was a cheaper material, both from a tooling perspective (tooling used for die casting doesn’t last as long) and a materials standpoint. The plastics industry lobbied long and hard to expand itself and succeeded. Manufacturers are figuring out that zinc castings done right are superior.

Arguing for plastic over diecast in O gauge. Yeah, that’s been talked about on the forum, too. Got a thumbs down from most.

Jim, you seem to be the most vocal proponent of zincs superiority, yet you fail to provide a valid argument as to why it is superior to plastic. There is nothing inherently superior about that material. None. It adds nothing that plastic doesn't add except perhaps weight. Who cares if it's done right or not. It adds nothing. The fact that it isn't being done right and that it probably never will be done right again is the whole issue. As long as pest is an issue, it is inferior.

I have lots of Weaver with plastic frames, bodies, trucks and couplers and none of it has given me any issues that I didn't cause. Warped, heat damaged, cracked shells are usually from electronics failures, mis-storing an item or assembly issues and not issues with the material itself. Never has anyone complained that plastic just crumbled apart.

I too have a lot of N scale from back to the sixties. I have many of the makes in that scale, Arnold, LifeLike, Kato, Atlas, Con-Cor, BLI, Bachmann/Spectrum and E-R Models. I have 188 locomotives, 249 passenger cars and 553 freight cars in N scale. Number of these with zinc pest = zero. Number with warped or broken shells that weren't my fault = zero. I can't say the same for my O gauge stuff.

This looks like a job for @CentralFan1976 with 3D printing from Shapeway

@Mike D posted:

Jim, you seem to be the most vocal proponent of zincs superiority, yet you fail to provide a valid argument as to why it is superior to plastic. There is nothing inherently superior about that material. None. It adds nothing that plastic doesn't add except perhaps weight. Who cares if it's done right or not. It adds nothing. The fact that it isn't being done right and that it probably never will be done right again is the whole issue. As long as pest is an issue, it is inferior.

I have lots of Weaver with plastic frames, bodies, trucks and couplers and none of it has given me any issues that I didn't cause. Warped, heat damaged, cracked shells are usually from electronics failures, mis-storing an item or assembly issues and not issues with the material itself. Never has anyone complained that plastic just crumbled apart.

I too have a lot of N scale from back to the sixties. I have many of the makes in that scale, Arnold, LifeLike, Kato, Atlas, Con-Cor, BLI, Bachmann/Spectrum and E-R Models. I have 188 locomotives, 249 passenger cars and 553 freight cars in N scale. Number of these with zinc pest = zero. Number with warped or broken shells that weren't my fault = zero. I can't say the same for my O gauge stuff.

I’m among those who agree that another alloy casting, either brass or aluminum, would be better than zinc. More costly with some drawbacks. However, plastic-bodied steamers? Sounds like a lobby interest to me.

Seems to me I remember numerous postwar plastic shells with stress fractures where screws attach the body to the frame. EP5s ring a bell? How about that bulging mid-section on all the F3s from heat? Care to do some more postwar O gauge studying before coming to your plastics conclusions?

How about all the crazed plastics from early Floquil paints, requiring the company to formulate a barrier application in the 1970s?

I also have plastic frames on quite a few freight cars that have bowed? Why? Well, plastic shrinks with age. So if a metal weight is attached, something has to give.

Plastic also becomes more brittle with age. And you say you have never seen plastic crumble? Huh, maybe you should search the landfills, where uncounted tons of plastic model components end up. I have seen countless broken trucks that snapped when new wheel sets were installed on N and HO cars. I have seen broken shell mounting holes on numerous Athearn engines. I have seen endless broken truck mounts on old Tyco locomotives.

None of this sound familiar? Or did you decide to ignore all these facts in favor of trumpeting plastics’ superiority over all else.

The zinc problem is with subcontractors in China who O gauge manufacturers depend on for zinc-based components such as couplers, car frames, trucks, truck sideframes and, in the case of my MTH American Freedom Train GS4 from 2002, the locomotive skirting. Some folks here have decided the problem is the alloy. Funny we went decades without any problems until China production became the norm.

So who is to blame? The subcontractors because of ignorance? The Chinese government for not setting industrial standards? The main contractors for not vetting the subcontractors? The import manufacturers for not tolerating top quality control? The U.S. government for allowing domestic manufacturing to be supplanted by foreign manufacturing?

Plain and simple, I don’t know. But it’s clear O gauge zinc pest as in Ben’s sample here is the result. On the other hand, shall we line up all the diecast parts over the past 80 years that are perfectly fine? You couldn’t fit those components in a New York mansion.

The fact is an infinite number of plastic components have failed at a rate eternally greater than diecast failures. But you’re right. There is no such thing as plastic pest. So it’s got that going for it.

@bigkid posted:

You basically hit the nail on the head, quality isn't about inspections, those only catch the most glaring of problems. Back in the 'good old days' of GM and the other US manufacturers, they spent 50% of their time rebuilding cars coming off the assembly lines (and a lot of floor space) because of poor quality control and then in the field, well, there is a reason they gained the reputation they had. The problem is that for many products the manufacturing has gone backwards and it shows in the quality of many mass produced products done for 'cheapest price, always'.

With the trains we are buying they are sourcing components from the cheapest source (likely in China), the chips and boards are made and assembled there, and it is kind of like the old auto industry (dead now around 25 years). If the part can be used to assemble the train, they use it, if the board plugs into the harness, they put it in there. If a part doesn't fit, it goes into a bin or dumpster. If the engine starts up on being powered up, lights up, passes basic checks, it is done.  If a truck already showed signs on Zinc pest, it would go into the garbage, no one asks why it is like that from the vendor. If they get a lot of bad parts, they refuse to pay the vendor, they ship them new ones.

I am sure they are checked out when they get here, too, and I am sure some of them are fixed and repaired because screws fell out, etc. The real problem with this kind of thing is you end up with marginal parts that fail fast, that can't be found this way.

Really the only difference between the trains we are buying and the cheap mass produced stuff you buy at Walmart is likely the profit margin, that cheap fry pan is made in the millions so if they make 1 buck on each, that Lionel Engine sells in the thousands so the profit margin is a lot higher/unit (Just to throw a number out there, a 2000 grand engine might cost them 800 to produce hypothetically).

Other makers of high end products use lean production and quality techniques, for example Apple when producing its phones and tablets and such, so the quality is higher there for a comparable priced product (and yes, the margins on those items is large, too, last I checked the prod cost on a an Apple Phone was like around 200 bucks).

And basically it is what it is, not likely to change because it is the dynamic of this market.

Exactly right.  You can't inspect quality into a product.  It must be designed and built in as part of its creation.  That's true of manufactured items as well as software.  If someone is testing something to determine its quality, that train has already left the station.

Zinc pest has been around for what, 80 years?  Sheesh.      There really isn't any excuse for it in 2022.

George

When concidering plastic models, look at the development of plasticizer migration.   From my work with vinyl flooring products,  the time line of plasticizers leaving their host has determined the products serviceability.

Think outdoor plastic furniture, awning, pools, etc.  They get hard and brittle , crack and break then wind up in a land fill just like we do.

Not sure how chemistry has changed in recent years but plasticizer migration has been a major player in determining the useful life of many plastics.

@Tom Tee posted:

When concidering plastic models, look at the development of plasticizer migration.   From my work with vinyl flooring products,  the time line of plasticizers leaving their host has determined the products serviceability.

Think outdoor plastic furniture, awning, pools, etc.  They get hard and brittle , crack and break then wind up in a land fill just like we do.

Not sure how chemistry has changed in recent years but plasticizer migration has been a major player in determining the useful life of many plastics.

I am no chemist, so I have to take your word about Plasticizer migration. The outdoor furniture thing is different in that although they have UV stabilizers in outdoor plastics, they still are affected by UV and deteriorate over time. Indoor plastics, like our trains, especially those painted, won't suffer from that same type of deterioration at anywhere near the same rate as outdoor plastics and will last longer.

I am no lobbyist and have no interest in the plastic industry. I just want models that don't fall apart in the box, on my layout or in my hands from material defects. That doesn't happen with plastic. Is plastic perfect, no.

Like I said Zinc pest is a problem. The manufacturers are not interested in addressing this problem. They aren't out anything when our models fall apart. As a matter of fact it is a windfall for them, because that means we are buying new rolling stock, locomotives, accessories, etc. when ours fall apart. I would rather have plastic that lasts longer than I will be around than zinc that has the potential to fail while I'm still alive.

As far as steamers are concerned, I have some very nice Kato, Spectrum and BLI steamers in N scale that can be considered top of the line in that scale that have plastic shells. They have outstanding levels of detail and run flawlessly. My HO Spectrum Mikado is actually nicer than the N scale version of it that I have and it has a plastic shell. I would say they are the N and HO scale equivalents of my O gauge Premier steamer in both detail and performance. If MTH offered a plastic Premier steamer I would have no issue with purchasing one.

If the manufacturers would get the pest issue resolved then I would have no problem with zinc what so ever. They aren't going to fix it, so I have a problem with it.

Insert beating dead horse emoji here.

Michael   what makes you think the  people's republic cares?  At any time they can pull the plug on the toy market  , and it wouldnt hurt their GNP one bit!, You can see what holding back electronic components  has done to  markets  world wide. The production  of toys and trains is not a priority and may be cut sooner than you think!