Another "What's wrong with my Locomotive?" Thread

This engine is a K Line K3380-1361C, Steam Locomotive.  The symptoms are: All functions seem to work from a Lionel Legacy Cab Controller.  However when activating the throttle the Locomotive does not move.  After attempting to cause the Locomotive to move the functions that worked before no longer are activated when commanded.

The locomotive will accept ID reprogramming and acknowledge with the characteristic whistle blow.   Not that I believe this to be an issue but is puzzling to me, When I reset the Locomotive by performing the classic ENG-"ID"-SET-AUX1-"Eng Type" sequence the Keypad does not show a numeric alternative, only the functions of Legacy when executing the AUX1 key.  I was under the impression that the AUX1 brought up the numeric keypad.  But I issue the key that would be "Eng Type" being the four position but no indication that sequence was received by the Locomotive aka Whistle Blow.

My first sequence of physical trouble shooting was the removal of the Tender Shell.  Visual inspection revealed nothing out of the ordinary.  I removed the two daughter boards and reset them.  Reassembled the Tender and proceeded back to the layout.  No difference in activity as experienced previously.  Thinking that it might be a "Cruise Control" issue due to nonmovement of the Locomotive, I proceeded back to the Bench.  I removed the Boiler Shell and visually inspected the innards.  Again every thing looked nominal.  One thing I did not expect was it appears on this Locomotive the Cruise Control is monitored with a light source through a slotted wheel by the Flywheel.  It seems the last locomotive that I had an issue with had a paper tape around the flywheel for the Cruise Control.  I half expected that to be the issue when I began to suspect the Cruise Control as that tape had a habit of coming off the Flywheel.

There was one daughter board that I reset and as with the Tender I again saw no indication on any of the boards any heat damage.  At this point I still have the Boiler Shell off and am waiting to see if anyone can point me in a direction to remedy my issue(s).  Thanks again to responding to yet another "What's wrong with my Locomotive" thread.

Jim

 

Hauling Coal and Tourist to Sodus Point on the PRR-Elmira Branch

Original Post

 As to the aux1 bringing up numerals, I don’t remember if that is an issue with the engine type feature, but I have often had to just count the squares and press the representative square when presented with the Legacy symbols.

Chuck TCA LCCA ARRL BMWMOA

cjack posted:

 As to the aux1 bringing up numerals, I don’t remember if that is an issue with the engine type feature, but I have often had to just count the squares and press the representative square when presented with the Legacy symbols.

Are you aware of any type of indication such as a whistle blow that the command has been acted on by the Locomotive?  The K Line instructions for the Locomotive do not indicate any response.  Just curious as it has been a long time since having to have done this procedure.  Thanks.

Jim

 

Hauling Coal and Tourist to Sodus Point on the PRR-Elmira Branch

Being trained as an engineer (Electrical from an Accredited College) I was very meticulous as I went through all of my investigation and transcribed all my actions and took down all the Board nomenclature I encountered.  If you would like to see that information, I would be glad to send it to anyone wishing to see it.

Jim

 

Hauling Coal and Tourist to Sodus Point on the PRR-Elmira Branch

I think, because there is always a possibility I haven't, have checked the easy stuff that is always referenced on threads such as this. I am somewhat hoping it to be a failure in one of the boards that does not visually show, such as heat damage that might be apparent. I have a sister Locomotive to this one that is running. Instead of me quessing which daughter boards(s) to exchange first, I was hoping someone could point me to the one that logically could be the culprit. 

Jim

 

Hauling Coal and Tourist to Sodus Point on the PRR-Elmira Branch

gunrunnerjohn posted:

The easy board to swap is the R2LC, that would be my first attempt. 

GRJ,

From my notes:

Removed daughter board from motherboard

Tag labeled 5932, 06/03, chip on component side labeled R2LC08, Lionel Trains Board labeled on solder side Lionel Trains, 691-R2LC-C, no visual signs of heat damage

This board is located in the Locomotive Area and not in the Tender.  Is this correct?

Jim

 

Hauling Coal and Tourist to Sodus Point on the PRR-Elmira Branch

cjack posted:

A visual inspection is probably not going to reveal much. I’ve never had a bad one look visibly bad.

The visual inspection was only to see if there was noticeable Heat Damage as a result voltage spikes.  Multilevel boards, which I haven't analyzed the boards thoroughly, to see if they are can have hidden damage.  It would not take much to melt an imbedded Trace.

If I did not make the statement the first question I would get is "Is there Scorching on the Board?" So I fended off 10 of those questions.

Jim

 

Hauling Coal and Tourist to Sodus Point on the PRR-Elmira Branch

Actually, I've seen several K-Line cruise boards that went up in smoke, and the damage was clearly visible.  Others fail with no apparent visible damage.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Yes, the R2LC is in the locomotive.

Is this board not the communications board? If all other functions appear to work until the throttle is moved, would that not indicate that this particular board is working?  GRJ, you are correct that this is an easy board to check since I already have the boiler off the suspect Locomotive. But taking the Sister engine apart and swapping the boards and then testing both engines to determine if the anomaly follows the suspect board seems to be an effort in futility.  However since you very rarely, if ever, have I seen you steer anyone wrong on this Forum, if you say do it, I will.  Just need a little more of your thought process for this endeavor.

Jim

 

Hauling Coal and Tourist to Sodus Point on the PRR-Elmira Branch

BobbyD posted:

In looking thru this, does it run conventionally with your TMCC/Legacy system unplugged from the wall? (I may have missed that post if you responded about it.)

No, I did not try that test.  I am right now getting up the energy after my morning Cup of Coffee to go down and do as GRJ suggest.  When I get both Locomotive assembled I will try your test.

Jim

 

Hauling Coal and Tourist to Sodus Point on the PRR-Elmira Branch

The R2LC also controls Cruise board or motor driver.  It is an easy swap to see if that resolves your issue.  But while you are in there inspect the motor driver board for damage.  Make sure all connector are attached, no wires off motor.  Rotate motor flywheel to ensure you do not have binding of motor (tires off and stuck, linkage out of adjustment, brake detail stuck on driver, etc...)  If binding it may cause your symptom.  Other wise R2LC, Motor driver or a bad wire connector.  Wire breaks under insulation at connector.  Or else corrosion builds up so unseat 4 pin on motor driver and reseat.  Tracking this down if no obvious damage to motor driver board is a lot more involved.  G

MTH Authorized Service Center

Authorized ERR Dealer

Lionel Independent Repair Tech

Virginia Train Collectors Member

OK, Here is what I experienced.  Label 76 as the Functioning Locomotive and Label 61 as the Problem child, I mean Locomotive.  I placed the R2LC board from 61 in to Locomotive 76.  I mated the Tender from 61 to 76 (which now has 61's R2LC Board).

I went to the layout and placed Locomotive 76 (Set up as 61) on the track and powered the Locomotive. Tried several function and they all worked as advertised.  I increased the Throttle and it proceeded to move forward, hit the direction button, the Locomotive traveled in Reverse.  I tried several functions which previously after moving the throttle did not work now worked.  I did not perform the same tests on the other Locomotive as I believe this test proves that the R2LC board from 61 is not the issue.  I am going out for a while.  I hope by the time I return we can have some suggestions for the next Step.  Since I feel that the R2LC board from 61 is functioning nomily, I will return it to the original Locomotive before the next step.

I edited this post please note the change in the first paragraph.  I transposed the numbers in the unedited post. this is now correct.

Jim

 

Hauling Coal and Tourist to Sodus Point on the PRR-Elmira Branch

OK, first note that I edited my last post.  I also upon my return reassembled Locomotive 61 with 76's R2LC Board.  I placed it along with it's original Tender (Tender 61) on the track, applied power to the track and accessed the Locomotive using ID "76" (ENG "76" BOOST) Locomotive responded with Sounds engaged.  Issued various commands and they functioned as expected.  Increased the Throttle and there was no response, as I expected.  However there was one interesting aspect. When before increasing the Throttle, the other commands, TOWER TALK, etc. would not function. this time they did work. Curious or not?

Jim

 

Hauling Coal and Tourist to Sodus Point on the PRR-Elmira Branch

GGG posted:

The R2LC also controls Cruise board or motor driver.  It is an easy swap to see if that resolves your issue.  But while you are in there inspect the motor driver board for damage.  Make sure all connector are attached, no wires off motor.  Rotate motor flywheel to ensure you do not have binding of motor (tires off and stuck, linkage out of adjustment, brake detail stuck on driver, etc...)  If binding it may cause your symptom.  Other wise R2LC, Motor driver or a bad wire connector.  Wire breaks under insulation at connector.  Or else corrosion builds up so unseat 4 pin on motor driver and reseat.  Tracking this down if no obvious damage to motor driver board is a lot more involved.  G

I had originally check all of your other suggestions and as stated everything was nominal.  However your suggestion regarding the 4 Pin is interesting. Is the board you are referencing in the Locomotive (Seems right).  Is it the mother board that the R2LC plugs into?  Assuming so since that board has numerous connectors for plugs, How do I identify the plug and pin you are referring to?

Jim

 

Hauling Coal and Tourist to Sodus Point on the PRR-Elmira Branch

OK, Now I am not sure what I just learned.  I was looking at Locomotive 61 with 76's R2LC.  I noticed a slide switch for Cruise Control.  It was "OFF".  I slide it to "ON" and put it on the track.  Powered it up in the usual way.  Checked out the command functions and they responded as expected.  Increased the Throttle and it began moving to my surprise.  Executed the Direction command and increased the Throttle and the Locomotive moved in reverse.  No matter how much I increased the Throttle, the locomotive would not increase in speed.  I removed Power and Slide the Cruise Control Switch to "ON".  I think I mentioned earlier that I was experiencing the "Flickering" Headlight Phenomenon.  I placed my hand over the engine and the "Flickering" ceased.  As I turned the Throttle the engine did increase in speed.  It was very erratic so I am not sure that any definitive statement can be made at this point.

Jim

 

Hauling Coal and Tourist to Sodus Point on the PRR-Elmira Branch

So you have a weak signal issue. Is it in one area or thru out the layout? If it is all over the layout, then you have to investigate the strength of the output of the base. There are several ways to check this out, an oscilloscope if you have one is the fastest. You should get about 6 vpp at the U output at the base against ground of the scope.

Chuck TCA LCCA ARRL BMWMOA

cjack posted:

So you have a weak signal issue. Is it in one area or thru out the layout? If it is all over the layout, then you have to investigate the strength of the output of the base. There are several ways to check this out, an oscilloscope if you have one is the fastest. You should get about 6 vpp at the U output at the base against ground of the scope.

So remember back a few messages, I used the carcass of 76 with the R2LC of 61 and it worked fine on the same section of track.  So it would appear to me that it is not a total layout issue.  Further I have six or seven locomotive that traverse my entire layout without issue. So let's just for a minute think that it is a receive issue with the carcass of 61.  Now the question I have is why are throttle commands more sensitive to signal receive issues than other command such as TOWER TALK, COUPLER FIRE, etc. which seem to work fine. 

Jim

 

Hauling Coal and Tourist to Sodus Point on the PRR-Elmira Branch

First, no need to move tenders over.  Either the engine has partial ground on the antenna, (Hand Rails).  Or some other function on the motor driver.

Does the engine run in conventional?  Also, it looks like your not consistent with what you did with Cruise switch.  There are 2 switches that can effect this.  The Run program, needs to be in run.  The Cruise switch on or off.  Which position does it run in?  Be advised that some K-Line Cruise engines do not run in conventional except real slow speed regardless of voltage setting. 

To me sounds like Cruise board going bad, and the fix is an ERR Cruise M.  I can do this repair, if your not comfortable doing this despite your background.  Understanding the inter relationship of parts matter when tracking down a motion problem and doing an upgrade.  G

MTH Authorized Service Center

Authorized ERR Dealer

Lionel Independent Repair Tech

Virginia Train Collectors Member

GGG,

You are right. you asked me to do the conventional test and I forgot all about that.  Thank-you for reminding me.

I am very methodical.  There was no reason for me to reassign ID's so the RUN/PRG switch has not been moved from the RUN position since beginning these tests.

I will attempt the "conventional" test this morning.

If I checked Continuity from the handrail (I assume that the handrail is the antenna, but I will check first) and the Shell, I should see an Open since the handrail should be isolated from the Shell.  I will check but I think usually both Handrails are part of the antenna system.

Jim

 

Hauling Coal and Tourist to Sodus Point on the PRR-Elmira Branch

BobbyD posted:

In looking thru this, does it run conventionally with your TMCC/Legacy system unplugged from the wall? (I may have missed that post if you responded about it.)

OK, I thought I understood when I quickly read your message.  But now rereading it I am confused.  You say to un-power the Command Base by unplugging it from the wall.  If I do that, I do not see how I would be able to issue any commands to my TPC 3000 to set it up as for Conventional Running and further if I previously set the TPC up for running as conventional and stored that function using the SET button, power down everything, unplugging the Command Base, power the remainder of the equipment. Now the Question.  How do I inform the TPC that is in a "conventional run" state to increase track voltage since the Command Base is not functional to issue the commands to the TPC?  Am I missing something?

I think what you had in mind was the removal of the wire to the Base Antenna Lug so that there would be no indication of a Command Base and therefore the Locomotives would default to "Conventional Running".  Does this make sense or am I off in left field?

Jim

 

Hauling Coal and Tourist to Sodus Point on the PRR-Elmira Branch

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