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No Tender!  How far would the little bugger travel?

Given their size you would think that they would start and stop just after popping a few yards down the track. However, because of what their job was, they wouldn't need to go long distances since it seems the SP had something similar that would travel 8 miles for it's route(at least that is what I believe I just read). These engines sound like they are the taxi's of the rails. Skip or some others would have to educate us further on that.

@Norton posted:

I would be in for sure but would be surprised if they could fit Legacy electronics in there if it was built to scale. Looks smaller than a PRR A-5.

Pete

Are they bigger than the American 4-4-0 hybrids? I know the A5's are pretty small, but they have a tender for space for electronics. The hybrids there was only enough room for a pinky finger to barely fit if that. If there is no real room, they'd have to consider the possibility of having a sound passenger car for the electronics which some wouldn't like.

@NYC Fan posted:

I would love to see Lionel make a Legacy Scale Model of this little 2-4-4T Commuter Locomotive once used in Manhattan, the Bronx, and Westchester County in New York on the Putnam Division of the NYC.

244T2-4-4T

Very interesting engine Skip. I'd be interested in one for sure just because it is one of those engines most people don't know about(including me). Seeing something small like this reminds me of the small tank engine the BR&W used to have. They sold it I think to one of the railroads in NY I think to restore it. Can't remember what number it was and not sure if I could find it on the BR&W page as it used to be there years ago.

Could you give us some details on how big these engines were, I mean length of course, how far they ran, and anything else that comes to mind. I'd imagine that they had many stops on a short line traveling maybe less than a mile in some places?

I am working on upgrading a Lionel 0-6-0T “Docksider” now. Its about the same length as this engine but with a water tank surrounding the boiler so interior space is much wider. It has a tiny starter set motor and the boards fill the space from the smoke unit to the back of the coal bin. Anything they put in this engine could only be half as wide as the Docksider board. Might be possible if they use Trackmobile parts but I think you would lose most of the Legacy features.

Pete

A number of various small urban commuter engines wound up in industrial and logging uses in their second lives (so l have read).  I always think about an Illinois captive grain elevator shortline that maintained an 0-4-0T for seasonal grain rushes.  For that reason l would be interested in such a model (with preferably an unlettered version).  (I also thought l read that they were cramming  miniature electronics into HO, so...why not this?)

Nice loco Skip. I'd take one, add in LIRR and I'd buy two for sure . Not protypical but a loco like this could have operated on some of the short branches back in the day. The Oyster Bay branch comes to mind.

Lionel has LC 2.0 in the new Docksider. I'm sure the boards could fit in something like this too.

Bob

@Arthur posted:

This would require new tooling correct ? I have doubts about seeing any new tooling for a steam engine. Repaints seem to be the way they are gong these days.

Yes it would definitely be new tooling. The alternative would be brass or brass hybrid. Depending on what is out there that is comparable in size, that could be possible to do, but very doubtful anything is close enough to try something like that.

That being said, there is always a possibility of a new tooling coming into the works. These engines Skip has stressed before, back in 2017 according to what my initial search said this morning. So, they could be on the radar as it were, question is has Lionel taken a board look at this engine to see if it is something they would do?

There is always a possibility that these engines will be made or any other that we have asked about, it may take a year, may take 10, who can say. All it needs is a demand for something new and them to take it up. Yeah, that is something seldom done, but you can only hope.

Pictures show my 1:48 On30 model of Sandy River & Rangeley Lakes 2-4-4T Forney #11 offered by Bachmann around 2007. These engines ran on railroads of the two-foot narrow-gauge system in Maine until the 1930s. The prototypes were built by Baldwin between 1907 and 1909.

Locomotives of this type were also built to standard gauge (56-1/2 inches) by Alco-Brooks in 1910 for the New York Central and Hudson River Railroad and hauled short passenger trains on the Putnam Division between 155th Street in Manhattan and Getty Square in Yonkers. Similar 0-4-4Ts ran in New York City on elevated lines prior to electrification in 1903. The Boston, Revere Beach & Lynn three-foot narrow-gauge railroad also operated this type of locomotive in commuter service prior to its electrification in 1928.

My pictures show the model sitting between the center and an outer rail of Atlas O gauge track on my 10’-by-5’ model railroad. On30 models have a gauge equivalent to 30-inches at full scale which can run on HO track or, more correctly, on accurately scaled On30 track. I don’t have an On30 setup and have this model just for display. It is very small, fragile, and difficult to handle or clean – which I did quickly before taking the pictures.

At this point, I believe that many of us have plenty of the best-known types of steam locomotives. These days, I’m much more interested in small engines to run on my small layouts. And, I would certainly buy a model of one of the New York Central 2-4-4T engines. I think that Scott Mann, of Sunset Models, would be the only person who might consider making one.

MELGAR

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Looking at Rusty's posted Rex, could that brass loco be ordered for Flyer AC (l know little about 2 rail Flyer), and track on it?  The fact it exists proves others have thought it an interesting engine.  l mulled over the K-Line engine back then but decided it was too big, and unlikely for my applications described above. Third Rail might be our only hope, and they would probably have to be guaranteed to sell a lot of 'em. ( Wouldn't that be great for power in a starter set?)

I’d definitely be in for one. Despite my usual penchant for big steam, lately, I’ve found a new love for small steamers. As Bob @RSJB18 mentioned, the LionChief Plus 2.0 docksider was a well priced, really nice engine (had to get the B.E.D.T version from my Brooklyn hometown). I also picked up an NYC 4-6-6T to run my version of a Westchester commuter train. Can’t have enough streamers!!!

759EE279-BBFF-42EF-8691-8F52E592EE19

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Other than having been tank engines, there is no comparison between the Boston & Albany 4-6-6T locomotives (models by K-Line and Lionel) and the New York Central 2-4-4T locomotives that ran on the Putnam Division. The 2-4-4Ts were much smaller and lighter. The B&A/NYC D-1a Class 4-6-6Ts were the size and had the tractive effort of a Pacific. They operated at a weight of 352,000 pounds, 215 psi steam pressure, produced a tractive effort of 41,600 pounds, and were 54-feet in length. The earlier NYC Class D-1a/D-2a 2-4-4Ts weighed about 142,700 pounds, operated at 160 psi steam pressure, produced a tractive effort of 13,440 pounds, and were about 38 feet in length (my scaling from a photograph). My Bachmann 2-4-4T On30 model has a length of 7.6 inches – about 30 feet full scale.

MELGAR

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This is over simplified, but, at one time the West Side and Yonkers Commuter Railway ran from the terminus of the 9th Avenue El in front of the Polo Grounds at 155th Street on the east side of Manhattan, across the Harlem River Bridge, and followed the Putnam Mainline north from Sedgwick Ave into Van Cortland Park where it branched off onto the three mile long Getty Square Branch where it made 3 stops in Yonkers before terminating in Getty Square. The entire trip covered approximately 9 miles. The line was truncated and no longer crossed the swing bridge into Manhattan in 1916. The bridge was given over to the IRT. A terminal station was built at Sedgwick Ave where there was also a small steam locomotive servicing facility with a turntable serving the Put which now included the Yonkers branch. From the Sedgwick Terminal to Getty Square was 7.77 miles. These 2-4-4T would be filled with enough water and coal at Sedgwick to easily make the 15.5 mile round trip.

IMG_7625

IMG_7626

These were the 2-4-4T Brooks Locomotives Melgar mentioned above.

Sedgwick from Coogan's Bluff

Looking from Manhattan across the swing bridge to Sedgwick.

Sedgwick at turntable facing west with 2-4-4T

Looking from Sedgwick Ave above the turntable. Swing bridge would be to the left.

Sedgwick looking east

Walkway coming off swing bridge. Stairs down to the Hudson Division trains.

Turntable and Engine House in the back left.

polo13963ANNOTATED.jpg.

This aerial photo was taken sometime between 1933 and 1936.

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  • Sedgwick from Coogan's Bluff
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  • Sedgwick looking east
Last edited by NYC Fan
@Apples55 posted:

I’d definitely be in for one. Despite my usual penchant for big steam, lately, I’ve found a new love for small steamers. As Bob @RSJB18 mentioned, the LionChief Plus 2.0 docksider was a well priced, really nice engine (had to get the B.E.D.T version from my Brooklyn hometown). I also picked up an NYC 4-6-6T to run my version of a Westchester commuter train. Can’t have enough streamers!!!

759EE279-BBFF-42EF-8691-8F52E592EE19

Yes!!! I love the 4-6-6T. Advocated for K-Line to make it originally #1295 and love my new Lionel Legacy version #1297. Really great locomotive, pulls a ton.

Interesting that one of these ex-NYC engines found its way to upstate NY and operated on the Schoharie Valley Railroad for years. I taught in that area for 30 years and talked to quite a few old timers who remembered steam in the valley.

Photo click here

Jim

Hi Jim!!! I believe the five 4-6-6T D2a locomotives that started off on the B&A also ended up in upstate New York as well. Not sure exactly where, but suspected they were in the western part of the state.

New York Central D2a 4-6-6T Suburban Tank Engine #1297

#1297

nyc1298enhanced

#1298

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Harnonyards ..three railing brass steam locos, (and a brass McKeen car, although l tackle other brass railcars with less complicated undercarriages ),  and l could produce a long list of desires, some for which l had to pass up bargains, because they lacked wide flanges and center collector ,is a challenge. No chance you or someone does that professionally?

I will be offering these services and more when I retire in about a year from now,…especially doing 2 rail brass to 3 rail,…however, my approach is much more different then one would think,….when looking at a 2 rail brass model, I choose the best fit 3 rail MTH or Lionel chassis to my swaps,….two things happen doing this: no.1, you get a robust chassis, no.2 sell off the 2 rail chassis to recoup monies spent,….usually the brass 2 rail chassis holds a pretty healthy premium on the market,…..just my approach,….the 2 rail guys vomit at what I do,….😉

Pat

Ah-hah!  There is one in its second life,  on the Schoharie Valley,  just as l described, and a reason to justify one in other than urban commuting.  Bring it on.  Thanks, J.P.  But, did any of the larger K-Line/ Lionel prototypes have photo documented short line second lives far from the maddening crowds?

I have been trying to find photos but no luck so far but supposedly the 4-6-6Ts pulled commuter trains between Buffalo and Niagara Falls in the ‘40s. Then replaced by Budd cars, Beeliners in NYC parlance, shortly after. I was too small to hold a camera, let alone get out and take pictures at the time.

Pete

@MELGAR posted:


At this point, I believe that many of us have plenty of the best-known types of steam locomotives.

I find that statement shocking.  There are only a handful of railroads that are well represented by O gauge steam locomotives.  For the rest it is something close, hopefully with the correct paint and lettering scheme if you are lucky.  I agree there is a demand for smaller locomotives, but for most people that means 4-6-0s, 2-8-0s and the like.

@Bill N posted:

I find that statement shocking.  There are only a handful of railroads that are well represented by O gauge steam locomotives.  For the rest it is something close, hopefully with the correct paint and lettering scheme if you are lucky.  I agree there is a demand for smaller locomotives, but for most people that means 4-6-0s, 2-8-0s and the like.

Clearly he’s made your decision for you,…….rather than say HE feels or thinks, he writes WE feel and think…..I must’ve missed his questionnaire,…..🙄

Pat

@NYC Fan posted:




polo13963ANNOTATED.jpg.



The "Sedwick Terminal" could be the basis of a delightful mini layout: The Putnam trains would enter and leave the layout using a "fiddle yard" to the left, terminating at Sedwick, where there could be an interchange with the Hudson Division, which might loop around to an off-layout yard. Meanwhile, the 9th Ave. IRT El could cross nearby, and for the truly ambitious, the swing bridge could open and close over the river.  With more space, both Yankee Stadium AND the Polo Grounds could be included, with recorded sounds of the roar of the crowds!

Last edited by West Side Joe
@Norton posted:

I have been trying to find photos but no luck so far but supposedly the 4-6-6Ts pulled commuter trains between Buffalo and Niagara Falls in the ‘40s. Then replaced by Budd cars, Beeliners in NYC parlance, shortly after. I was too small to hold a camera, let alone get out and take pictures at the time.

Pete

I seem to remember hearing that after coming over from the B&A, these locomotives were used in commuter service in the Buffalo area. But, I have found nothing to support this.

The photos that have turned up show #1297 in Dewitt, NY (East Syracuse) looking like it's still in service, #1295 in Watertown, NY looking like it's still in service, #1299 in Watertown, NY and #1298 white lined in Watertown, NY.

Only two looked like they had been legitimately re-lettered and renumbered for the New York Central and that lettering varied:

#1295

*4-6-6T #1295 at Watertown, NY

#1297

1297 Dewitt crop

The others looked like they had been hastily numbered and lettered by the local shop.

1298 Watertown crop



It appears that all 5 of these locomotives, #1295 - #1299 were in service on the New York Central for less than a year.

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  • *4-6-6T #1295 at Watertown, NY
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Last edited by NYC Fan

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