Anyone who has / wants old fashioned DCS and Remotes... CRITICALLY IMPORTANT PLEASE READ

I would buy 1 TIU and 1 Remotes.

There is not a whole lot of new information here that we all don't already  know. The new WTIU will still have a "remote" port on it to tether a DCS remote with a curly phone cord... not ideal but it does retain some compatibility.  With this in mind, I wonder why they couldn't continue to add the little 900MHz receiver board inside the WTIU. Also, perhaps (but unlikely) the new WTIU may retain the pin header to simply pull the 900 MHz receiver board from a TIU and install it in the WTIU.

Then there is also the app which has more flexibility than most will give it credit for. I developed a way to run the app without using the touch screen by a game controller that I bought from amazon. This controller is one of thousands that would work:

The app provides the most flexibility and offers way more future feature enhancements vs a static button remote that requires an entire redesign to include newer features. All the while, designed with little to no customization support on a "one size fits all" package.

As a new empty nester, I have been bequeathed another empty room to build a second layout.  Although I love my TIU and remote, I figured I'd pick up the new WTIU for this new layout.  Like H1000 said, I can still tether a remote to it, which for me works just fine, since i usually operate my bedroom sized layouts while sitting in front of a control panel (I don't ever walk around). I can see the benefits of each form of control (app or handheld) and am willing to give the app a try. Who knows, I may like it better. Surprisingly, a couple of die hard DCS guys i know now tell me they love the app and now rarely use the handheld (their grand kids love it and they don't care if the grandkids drop the phone like they did with the handhelds). If those old geezers can get with the times, I figured maybe it will be ok for me.

I'm also planning on buying one extra handheld to tether with the WTIU if I ultimately don't like the app.

Sadly I think the ship has sailed on the remote.  Why the OLD/NEW MTH stubbornly holds on to the belief everyone is just happy using their phone to run trains is beyond me.  I hate the app and only keep the WIU around in case my remote dies.  With that said if there is a USB port or telephone port to plug in your old remote.  Maybe just maybe, Someone can come up with a plug in module that will talk to the remote.  That way if our TIU dies we can upgrade and still use the remote.

@H1000 posted:

There is not a whole lot of new information here that we all don't already  know. The new WTIU will still have a "remote" port on it to tether a DCS remote with a curly phone cord... not ideal but it does retain some compatibility.  With this in mind, I wonder why they couldn't continue to add the little 900MHz receiver board inside the WTIU. Also, perhaps (but unlikely) the new WTIU may retain the pin header to simply pull the 900 MHz receiver board from a TIU and install it in the WTIU.

Then there is also the app which has more flexibility than most will give it credit for. I developed a way to run the app without using the touch screen by a game controller that I bought from amazon. This controller is one of thousands that would work:

The app provides the most flexibility and offers way more future feature enhancements vs a static button remote that requires an entire redesign to include newer features. All the while, designed with little to no customization support on a "one size fits all" package.

Really nice.  How does it work?   Is there a link?

Thanks,

John

@Craftech posted:

Really nice.  How does it work?   Is there a link?

Thanks,

John

I intend to shoot another video on how to set this up. It's easier to show you vs. type it all out in a long article. This may be while as planting has started this week and we are pretty much running 16 to 18 hours a day right now.

What I can tell you is that the cost to do this is nothing other than the purchase of a remote controller of your liking. The controller in the video is linked to my tablet via a Bluetooth connection. The controller I used in this video is made by ipega.

Currently I've only played around with this on the Android platform and haven't yet experimented at all with the iOS devices.

My ultimate goal is to have MTH/DCS to take notice and to adopt an API to allow easier integration of these controllers into their app.

@H1000 posted:

I intend to shoot another video on how to set this up. It's easier to show you vs. type it all out in a long article. This may be while as planting has started this week and we are pretty much running 16 to 18 hours a day right now.

What I can tell you is that the cost to do this is nothing other than the purchase of a remote controller of your liking. The controller in the video is linked to my tablet via a Bluetooth connection. The controller I used in this video is made by ipega.

Currently I've only played around with this on the Android platform and haven't yet experimented at all with the iOS devices.

My ultimate goal is to have MTH/DCS to take notice and to adopt an API to allow easier integration of these controllers into their app.

Thanks,

That sounds great.  What is doing the receiving?

John

The mini iPads are ideal for running both Lionel and MTH apps.

No remotes for me, thanks!  The DCS remote is too confusing and cumbersome, especially for train show demonstrations.

I can lock a mini iPad or my iPhone in “guided access” turning it into a dedicated kiosk, which only allows the user to blow the whistle / horn, and ring the bell.

Thanks!

-Mario

Looks like it takes two hands, and now my controller is 3 times larger.

I agree with Gary, this ship has sailed.  It will be the after market crowd that will have to come up with a solution only if there is enough interest.

@clem k posted:

Looks like it takes two hands, and now my controller is 3 times larger.

Screen sizes on phones and tablets range from 4 to 12 inches, you can pick whatever size you want. This particular tablet in my video is 7 inches. See the difference in size of my 4.3 inch xt907 vs the DCS remote.

There are one handed versions of these app remotes available also.

It's a far stretch to consider the current stock of DCS and CAB2 remotes fully one handed. The CAB1 is close but lacks ergonomic buttons with unique feel and differing tactile feedback responses. Even the newest lionchief remotes (with the fewest buttons) are not one handed.

You'll also notice that I am able to use more than just my thumb to operate functions on app remote where as it takes 4 fingers just cradle an hold the traditional remotes. The buttons are fully customizable to your liking on the app remote, and not set in stone like traditional remotes.

@superwarp1 posted:

  Maybe just maybe, Someone can come up with a plug in module that will talk to the remote.  That way if our TIU dies we can upgrade and still use the remote.

Good idea. Would it be that hard to come up with a circuit that converts the data from the 900MHz signal from the remote to something the WiFi receiver can understand? Like Gary said it would plug in to the TIU and converts the signal from to the other.

Although I like the DCS remote, the idea of a hand held remote hay day is passing.  The king of remotes, the TV remote is on the way out.  We talk to the TV through the remote now.  Some interfaces like Google Home have no remote, just talk to it.  Pretty soon we will be saying "All Aboard" and the whole layout will fire up.

Depends on the price.  Myself If it's reasonably priced I'd buy 1 TIU and 2 remotes.

Keeping with the o p request and staying on topic......2 tiu's....2 remotes for me......

I will never us a phone or an Ipad to run trains. Never is a long time.

Al

I agree with the others that the DCS TIU & Remote ship has sailed. I seriously doubt if those items will ever return, MTH is are app only now and I don't see that changing. But I'd possibly buy 1 TIU and a Remote or two if I am still using DCS if, and/or when these ever become available. Tried the WIU and app and I just don't care for it at all. Last I heard the app still doesn't do everything the remote does and as far as I know hasn't been updated in quite some time now?

Almost my entire fleet is PS3, I've been wanting to try DCC for a long time, I like the NCE system....

I’d like at least one remote spare and I guess one tiu.

I agree with Gary and others that I think it is too late for whoever markets DCS to keep producing the traditional TIU and remote technology.  It costs companies money to keep producing older technology.  However, I will answer John's initial question; I would purchase one TIU and remote if offered.  I had been thinking of purchasing a spare TIU for my 11x11 layout room, but didn't do it before they were discontinued.  I did get a spare remote in this last batch that were produced.  I tried the WIU when it first came out, but didn't like using the phone touch screen.  After a couple years, I sold the WIU to a Forum member.

All that said, I certainly wouldn't have an issue plugging the remote into a WTIU in such a small room as I have.  That may be the route I take as long as I have remotes.  Push come to shove if I outlive my remotes, then I'll go back to a touch screen on a phone or tablet. 

@Craftech posted:

Thanks,

That sounds great.  What is doing the receiving?

John

The ipega is connected to the the tablet via a Bluetooth connection as an HID (Human Interface Device), the app sends commands to the TIU via WiFi to the WIU & TIU.

One of each as a spare .

I have a lot of MTH One Gauge (no O gauge DCS ) and for me my Ipad and Iphone are very hard to see outside in the sunlight sometimes and that's why I prefer the remote. I currently have two TIU and two Remotes.  It's just a PP.

The whole thing is  still so disappointing MTH !!

Larry

I would purchase 1 spare remote.  I got a spare TIU in the last batch of Rev L.

That said, I thought there was one more run of remotes due this summer?

I have a spare TIU and 2 spare remotes so I don't think I will need any more.

I don't know that I am into buy spares, but I am very disappointed in this development.   One of the best things about dcs has been that it has always been backwards compatible.   Moving to a combined interface unit always seemed like a logical step.   I simply have a hard time understanding why the new unit wasn't made to be able to communicate with the existing remotes.  Perhaps we will say a change, or a plug in module that will allow for use of the original remotes via the dcs plug, as mentioned above.   Software updates though would stall, so the remotes would still be on borrowed time.

I am going to build a shadow box and install the two DCS remotes I have in it. I will call it 'When trains where fun"

I would buy 1 TIU

I think the way forward is the box that plugs into the remote cord connection and communicates using the 900mhz band with the remote.  That would seem like a development that is quite possible.  If the existing DCS Remote works well with the port on the "new" TIU, I can't see why this isn't the way to keep using the existing remotes.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I think the way forward is the box that plugs into the remote cord connection and communicates using the 900mhz band with the remote.  That would seem like a development that is quite possible.  If the existing DCS Remote works well with the port on the "new" TIU, I can't see why this isn't the way to keep using the existing remotes.

Seems very doable.  Part of me wonders if the ability to plug in a 900 MHz transceiver somewhere in the signal path might already exist.  I thought I read somewhere there is little difference to the signal that the remote sends to that of whats on the center rail, just modulated differently.

This has come up before, but I can't imaginethat the signal that comes from the remote looks anything like what is on the rails, and I'm not talking about modulation!  However, I'm not sure we really need to know all that much about the actual data, we just need a 900mhz link.

@Susan Deats posted:

I would buy 1 TIU

Susan,

I want to personally thank you for that fantastic project on your website:

Sound Activation and Block Protection Box

I built it to replace the Lionel one and it works great.  Thank you so much.

Regards,

John

I would buy 1 remote and 1 TIU

Back in the 70's we ran a club layout with a control system one of the members designed.  One of the features of this was phone plugs located around the layout where we would plug in remote controllers.  Sounds like this is now an option for the WTIU.  I would be ok with this based on my experience with that 70's HO layout.

Rolland

This is why I purchased two new, older TIUs and 2 spare remotes.

The remote gives me nostalgia for when I was very young and my LHS tech. would let me run the trains on the store layout. That's what really got me into DCS!

Bryce

Last year I bought a new second remote and several cradle/wheel assembles.  Last week I bought a second TIU new from The Railyard in Ronaoke VA . I also have the stand alone WiFi but prefer the remotes but have used the app on both my phone and iPad. My granddaughter has the app on her iPad and loves it. So yes I would by another TIU and remote just to have them. I must say my current TIU and remote I bought shortly after MTH introduced the system and have had no issues during that 15 or so years I have been using the first 10 or so was with 2 PW ZW’s.  

I will keep my remotes and TIUs for as long as they work, and I expect that to be a long time to come yet. Only when they die and there is no alternative will I use the phone app.  

Answer this survey so we can get the facts.

I'd buy two of each.

@Oman posted:

Answer this survey so we can get the facts.

Good idea Keith!

@Oman posted:

Answer this survey so we can get the facts.

Where is the "BOTH / EITHER" option for question 1?

The new WTIU does work with the DCS remote, just not wirelessly.

I currently use 2 TIU's on my layout.  With a planned expansion, I will need to add a 3rd TIU.  I also have 2 Wi-Fi adapters  connected to the TIU's.  I have not been very happy with using a phone or ipad to control the trains, and I prefer to use the DCS remote.

I am concerned that even if something is developed to allow the new WTIU to accept commands from the DCS remote, will the WTIU be able to be added as a 3rd TIU.

I will continue to buy MTH rolling stock and accessories, but no more engines until the future of DCS hardware and software is better defined and communicated.

@H1000 posted:

Where is the "BOTH / EITHER" option for question 1?

The new WTIU does work with the DCS remote, just not wirelessly.

I think we want to know how many people are really attached to handheld operation. I don't think tethered connection is of much interest to those that love their handheld. Too many answer options makes the result ambiguous. You are welcome to create a better survey.

All the DCC systems in HO are abandoning their handhelds too and going to the iphone.

- Crank

"I will continue to buy MTH rolling stock and accessories, but no more engines until the future of DCS hardware and software is better defined and communicated."

If a large enough group of people did this, I bet MTH would get the message and find a way to meet consumer demand for the wireless remote.

I would buy 2 more of each, but only if the TIU is modified so it will continue to work with the remote (not a phone or tablet) on a wireless basis. No tether.

With the time and money invested to re-design the remote for the last production run, one would think it would be to their advantage to continue to produce it. In my opinion the demand is out there. I need two sets of each, maybe three.

Just curious but MTH has been saying the remote was going away for at least 4 or 5 years. Why didn’t you stock up on extras then?  

Another thing to consider, I’ve seen where people say if XYZ makes this engine or item I’ll buy it.  They make it and no one buys it.

I really think you guys are out of luck. MTH has given everyone more than enough warning.

I think the problem here is that it appears that MTH has not taken the time to ask its customers who support the company what they want. These surveys are great, but unless the leadership of the company is willing to listen to the people who ultimately pay their salaries, nothing will change. At one of the last York meets, I went to the MTH booth to talk to the guys about the remote and a few other things. They were all glued to a TV set watching a golf tournament and not one of them would break away to speak with me, so I left.

I think they know most people want the remote and maybe if they were still the MTH of the past you’d get one. Everyone on this forum has been voicing their opinion on the remote since MTH said it was going away. They listened but most likely realized the investment wasn’t worth it.

With the company winding down and components for the remote harder to get I don’t see the investing in a new or redesigned remote.

@MartyE posted:

Just curious but MTH has been saying the remote was going away for at least 4 or 5 years. Why didn’t you stock up on extras then?

That gave me a chuckle Marty, it's why I have five (or six) remotes now, and also a bunch of TIU's!

I also have a couple spare thumbwheels and I think I found a source for the display panel.  I plan on keeping the existing TIU/Remote configuration in operation for many years.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

That gave me a chuckle Marty, it's why I have five (or six) remotes now, and also a bunch of TIU's!

I also have a couple spare thumbwheels and I think I found a source for the display panel.  I plan on keeping the existing TIU/Remote configuration in operation for many years.

My solution is to convert my few remaining PS2/3 engines to legacy.  Chances are I’ll only keep DCS for guests.

I have probably at least 35-40 DCS locomotives, maybe more if I count carefully.  I don't think I want to spend the time and money to convert all of those to TMCC or Legacy!

@BlueComet400 posted:

I think the problem here is that it appears that MTH has not taken the time to ask its customers who support the company what they want. These surveys are great, but unless the leadership of the company is willing to listen to the people who ultimately pay their salaries, nothing will change. At one of the last York meets, I went to the MTH booth to talk to the guys about the remote and a few other things. They were all glued to a TV set watching a golf tournament and not one of them would break away to speak with me, so I left.

From talking to both Mike and Andy at various meets, the impression I got was that the main problem with continuing production of the hand held was the difficulty in getting obsolete parts.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I have probably at least 35-40 DCS locomotives, maybe more if I count carefully.  I don't think I want to spend the time and money to convert all of those to TMCC or Legacy!

Hey John, you get the feeling to thin your DCS Locomotive collection just let me know! LOL

@mike g. posted:

Hey John, you get the feeling to thin your DCS Locomotive collection just let me know! LOL

Mike, you're going to replace them all with Legacy models, right?

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Mike, you're going to replace them all with Legacy models, right?

LOL The only Lionel I have on the layout are conventional engines that just sit most of the time, everything else is MTH DCS and plans to stay that way!

I think I would find a tether annoying and in the way. I’m no technophobe and I have and use lots of apps on my phone and tablet. I have used Lionel’s LionChief app and it’s Okay, but nothing impressive. A remote is far easier to use and feels natural in my hand. Let’s be honest here, the end of the hand held remote is not about what the customer wants. It’s about what’s best for a company that has lost the capacity to manufacture and support these devices.

I hope Lionel is paying attention to this fiasco. PLEASE continue to manufacture and support the CAB-1L and CAB-2!

@Madockawando posted:

Let’s be honest here, the end of the hand held remote is not about what the customer wants. It’s about what’s best for a company that has lost the capacity to manufacture and support these devices.

Exactly.  Imagine if TV, stereo, etc. manufacturers told you "just use your phone".  My 15 year old daughter asked me to get her an Amazon FireStick because it comes with a remote.  This is not an age issue, luddite issue, or however they want to frame it.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I have probably at least 35-40 DCS locomotives, maybe more if I count carefully.  I don't think I want to spend the time and money to convert all of those to TMCC or Legacy!

Yeah it ain’t cheap.  MTH just never made engines I wanted other than the few I have

@Madockawando posted:

Let’s be honest here, the end of the hand held remote is not about what the customer wants. It’s about what’s best for a company that has lost the capacity to manufacture and support these devices.

This is certainly true IMO.  It's pretty clear that a significant number of customers are not enamored with the idea of using their phone to control their trains, me being numbered among them.

OTOH, I can't be too hard on MTH for this decision.  They do have to weigh the expense of redesigning the remote to use new parts against any potential lost sales based on discontinuing the remote.  For many years in aerospace I faced similar issues of parts obsolescence, and the solution was to buy thousands of parts that guaranteed that we could continue to build a specific product for many years into the future.  However, the price for this practice was high, and I suspect the profit margins on model train products just don't allow for such extravagant expenditures.  This is likely the reason for the limited lifetime of stuff like the remotes.

Well I’m going to be hard on MTH.  Yes it’s a cost savings canceling the remote but they redesigned it for the production run last winter.  Why not keep making it.  Theirs still demand.

@superwarp1 posted:

Yeah it ain’t cheap.  MTH just never made engines I wanted other than the few I have

Amazing, considering the diversity of engines MTH made over the 15 year period from about 2001 to 2016 compared to Lionel. Anyone have a count, and I'm not just talking about different road names. I mean different engines.

Anyone remember how many different engines Lionel made before MTH came on the scene? IMO, we lived thru the Golden Age.

Having said that, I too like the remote.

Gerry

@gmorlitz posted:

Amazing, considering the diversity of engines MTH made over the 15 year period from about 2001 to 2016 compared to Lionel. Anyone have a count, and I'm not just talking about different road names. I mean different engines.

Anyone remember how many different engines Lionel made before MTH came on the scene? IMO, we lived thru the Golden Age.

Having said that, I too like the remote.

Gerry

Well since I limit myself to steam, NYC, and New England roads you can see why.  For the most part what’s on My layout MTH has never made, except for the three I have.  Check out my YouTube video for my inventory

@superwarp1 posted:

Well I’m going to be hard on MTH.  Yes it’s a cost savings canceling the remote but they redesigned it for the production run last winter.  Why not keep making it.  Theirs still demand.

You assume facts not in evidence Gary.  I believe they went out and procured enough parts to produce the existing remote, I don't think anything significant, other than maybe a capacitor or IC footprint changed.

For several years, as most of us know, MTH sets have not come with a remote.  They expect even the new consumer to operate their trains using a smartphone or tablet purchased separately.  I thought that was an exceptionally bad idea. Cannot imagine that contributed to their set sales, but perhaps that's just me.  Being charitable, they have done the math and they do not think they can recover the redesign and production costs of a remote with the likely size of the market.  Being a little less kind, someone at MTH made this decision and stubbornly isn't going to be dissuaded by a bunch of amateurs .  That said, it doesn't, to my mind, seem a favorable prognostic sign for the future of DCS production and PS3 equipped locomotives to limit consumers in this way.  More like the road to ever smaller market share.

As a contrast, and I hope it continues, Lionel has actually shipped all of its previous LC and LC+ locos with an inexpensive but useful remote, and has made a $40 universal remote available that operates both Bluetooth and LC systems of all current Lionel locomotives. I hope they do this for the long haul, so that those of us who don't want to use a smart device do not have to do so.  It adds complexity (you mean you still use a flip phone?) by requiring additional purchase or reuse of some other device you have and forces one approach on everyone.

I don't want to use my iPhone to operate my cable box or television either.  I use it for voice (I'm on-call 24/7 for work) and personal/work email, texting, and some Internet browsing. Even reading newspapers and magazines while in line for this and that.  I occasionally take photos or scan stuff. I don't want to use it to operate my toy trains, and it sounds like there are many who feel the same way, and we are not necessarily technophobes.

@superwarp1 posted:

Well I’m going to be hard on MTH.  Yes it’s a cost savings canceling the remote but they redesigned it for the production run last winter.  Why not keep making it.  Theirs still demand.

They won’t because they no longer have the ability to do so.

@gmorlitz posted:

Amazing, considering the diversity of engines MTH made over the 15 year period from about 2001 to 2016 compared to Lionel. Anyone have a count, and I'm not just talking about different road names. I mean different engines.

Anyone remember how many different engines Lionel made before MTH came on the scene? IMO, we lived thru the Golden Age.

Yep, one of the things that got me looking at MTH was the diversity of stuff they were making.  There are a ton of cool engines, not to mention novelty stuff like the Coors Silver Bullet, the Doodlebug, the Galloping Goose, etc.  MTH made a bunch of PRR stuff that never came out of Lionel, and I'm sure they pushed Lionel to make stuff that might have languished on the cutting room floor had it not been for the competition.

@superwarp1 posted:

Well I’m going to be hard on MTH.  Yes it’s a cost savings canceling the remote but they redesigned it for the production run last winter.  Why not keep making it.  Theirs still demand.

For all we know, the remote is based around a PIC or microprocessor that is was discontinued a while ago (like 4-5 years ago when they started to warn customers) and there are no equivalents being produced.  Couple that with a software code base that is tied to that particular architecture and the programming tools that supported it, it could be a significant lift to both redesign the hardware AND software.  

The redesign they did last year was only for a different thumbwheel from what I remember. They were probably using the remaining stock on the other parts for the rest of the remote, or some leftovers they found somewhere.

Electronic parts supply chain logistics are extremely difficult.  I do repairs for vintage electronics I collect, and when it comes to anything semiconductor wise, I have to stay on my toes since a part can change without much warning.  Then I have to start researching a suitable replacement, which can take a while.  Mind you, I do it as a hobby - imagine trying to do it and slap a warrantee on it and continue to support it.  

Do you have any expensive audio electronics at home with one of those blue dot matrix or segmented displays?  Those are called vacuum fluorescent displays and after about 5-10 years there’s little to no chance you’ll find a replacement for them.  And while they’re very durable, they do fade/dim and wear out.  

I think Lionel Legacy owners will be in the same boat with their remotes eventually too if a key part is discontinued.  Why redesign the software AND hardware when you can just design the software and let the big tech companies worry about sourcing parts and all the vertical integration problems.  

Lionel is NOT discontinuing the Legacy remotes. There are  no announcements or hints of any announcements that they are planning to do so.

Lionel Legacy users are not in the same boat and aren’t even on the dock next to the boat.

@BlueComet400 posted:

I think the problem here is that it appears that MTH has not taken the time to ask its customers who support the company what they want. These surveys are great, but unless the leadership of the company is willing to listen to the people who ultimately pay their salaries, nothing will change. At one of the last York meets, I went to the MTH booth to talk to the guys about the remote and a few other things. They were all glued to a TV set watching a golf tournament and not one of them would break away to speak with me, so I left.

Interesting. Will not having a remote available negatively affect purchases of new DCS equipped engines?

@superwarp1 posted:

Well I’m going to be hard on MTH.  Yes it’s a cost savings canceling the remote but they redesigned it for the production run last winter.  Why not keep making it.  Theirs still demand.

The only thing that is likely to get MTH's attention is this: if we simply stop buying their products. We are essentially being forced to use a phone or tablet if we want to run DCS. If the orders start to dwindle and they start choking on their inventory, my guess is they would find a way to continue producing a designated remote. Someone once told me that men are just little boys with money; as long as that money keeps flowing to MTH, they have zero incentive to listen to what anyone says.

@rplst8 posted:

I think Lionel Legacy owners will be in the same boat with their remotes eventually too if a key part is discontinued.  Why redesign the software AND hardware when you can just design the software and let the big tech companies worry about sourcing parts and all the vertical integration problems.  

What he said. Eventually Lionel will be in the same boat. Whether they recreate a hardware remote or most likely go the way of the smart phone is yet to be seen. I agree, why deal with ever changing hardware that can take years to redevelop when you can push software updates regularly.

@MartyE posted:

What he said. Eventually Lionel will be in the same boat. Whether they recreate a hardware remote or most likely go the way of the smart phone is yet to be seen. I agree, why deal with ever changing hardware that can take years to redevelop when you can push software updates regularly.

Why deal with it? Because that's what the consumers are demanding. If you own a business and you produce something for which there is no demand, you have no business. Like I said, until the money stops flowing, they're not likely to listen.

@MartyE posted:

What he said. Eventually Lionel will be in the same boat. Whether they recreate a hardware remote or most likely go the way of the smart phone is yet to be seen. I agree, why deal with ever changing hardware that can take years to redevelop when you can push software updates regularly.

One reason would be sufficient push-back from Lionel's customers.  Obviously, if they just whimper and take it, then Lionel would have little incentive to spend the extra money to keep a real remote.

"Lionel is NOT discontinuing the Legacy remotes. "

Not only that, but every single one of the hundreds of thousands of Lionel sets for sale, including Ready to Play sets for under $100, have a remote included.  Thus justifying MTH's decision making by stating "Lionel hit me first" or "Lionel will do dumb things in the future" isn't going to work with Mom and Dad .  And probably not with a lot of consumers.

I think it is a near certainty that Lionel keeps making a remote that operates all its locomotives made from here on in.  They would be deeply misguided not to.  Dave Olson is probably reading this thread and thinking "we'll find a way to make this work."   Lionel has the additional advantage that they are trying to remain in business as an ongoing full train line concern.  MTH and DCS are heading to stasis,  or the history books, depending on whose goat entrails you are reading.

@BlueComet400 posted:

Why deal with it? Because that's what the consumers are demanding. If you own a business and you produce something for which there is no demand, you have no business. Like I said, until the money stops flowing, they're not likely to listen.

O gauge consumers have short memories. How many times people on this forum have sworn off Lionel and a new catalog comes out and they’re running hand in hand with them down the beach.

Lionel and for now MTH will make trains, people will buy them whether they use a hardware remote or smart phone.

If i remember correctly not to long ago MTH said they were keeping the remote. Myself i like remotes. I don't wanna run trains or anything else with a phone.

I just now have a cell phone and trying to figure that out. Only reason i got it was because of my health.

@MartyE posted:

Lionel and for now MTH will make trains, people will buy them whether they use a hardware remote or smart phone.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see what really happens.  My Crystal Ball is a bit cloudy right now, so I'm not getting a good picture.

I recall adding my vote for keeping the remote to prior forum threads when this subject was first "news." I subsequently ordered two new DCS remotes last year - which was good timing as the power button on my older remote bit the dust during repeated attempts to hold the button down for that peculiar and rather ridiculous method of updating the remote's software.

In my assessment, MTH has been streamlining, a euphemism for cost-cutting, for years now. First, gutting instruction manuals to a one page "fits all" for steamers; then by not updating steamers with whistle steam (I think the Premier Big Boy has it), nor no attempt to match Lionel's various top-notch engine features. To me, this all translated that MTH was losing to Lionel. 

It's not that I won't use a Smart device to run trains, I literally cannot due to hand-eye impairment that makes swiping screens next very frustrating. If my remotes should die and I cannot obtain replacements, I'll either run my MTH conventionally or with TMCC (if possible) or just sell my MTH engines.

@MartyE posted:

What he said. Eventually Lionel will be in the same boat. Whether they recreate a hardware remote or most likely go the way of the smart phone is yet to be seen. I agree, why deal with ever changing hardware that can take years to redevelop when you can push software updates regularly.

This is an MTH problem, today. It is not a Lionel problem... now or in the future.

@Madockawando posted:

This is an MTH problem, today. It is not a Lionel problem... now or in the future.

You sure about that?  Because I’m not.

@BlueComet400 posted:

The only thing that is likely to get MTH's attention is this: if we simply stop buying their products. We are essentially being forced to use a phone or tablet if we want to run DCS. If the orders start to dwindle and they start choking on their inventory, my guess is they would find a way to continue producing a designated remote. Someone once told me that men are just little boys with money; as long as that money keeps flowing to MTH, they have zero incentive to listen to what anyone says.

Its an interesting idea but you are making an assumption that MTH (or what ever is left of MTH) can make a remote, they just don't want to. I think it is far more likely that this much reduced "MTH" can't make a remote because they no longer can make or support them.  So buying or not buying their locomotives will not sway them one way or another on the remotes.  You can't persuade them to do what they are incapable of doing.

@MartyE posted:

You sure about that?  Because I’m not.

You should be sure that Lionel will support it. There is absolutely NO evidence they won't support remotes. As Landsteiner noted, " Lionel has the additional advantage that they are trying to remain in business as an ongoing full train line concern."

Lionel and MTH are in two very different places now. Lionel is remaining a full line Train Company, with a real hand held remotes ( 3 of them), twice a year catalogs and a full line of trains from S-scale, HO, traditional O gauge, Scooby Doo and Disney, and then all the way to O-72 scale Vision Line locomotives. MTH has shrunk, sold off much of their tooling and building, they no longer offer a remote and will no longer offer any traditional catalogs. MTH and Lionel are no longer peers in the market place. So what happens to MTH does not mean it will also happen to Lionel.

The hobby will be OK.

@H1000 posted:

Where is the "BOTH / EITHER" option for question 1?

The new WTIU does work with the DCS remote, just not wirelessly.

None of my friends want to be "plugged in" to run trains. Of our 2 rail friends most went with NCE and a few Digitrax, all but 1 avoided Lenz because they don't have a true wireless remote and he now regrets it.

IIRC being "Corded" to one TIU eliminates the ability to run in multiple TIU's "Super" mode correct?

In addition to the parts issue, I wonder if the DCS developers aren't hoping to attract a younger crowd to the hobby; they're more likely accustomed to blue tooth and iPhones than most of us are. But, if that's the case, I question the logic. If the papers are to be believed, most are saddled with debt, have little disposable income, and probably have little or no interest in model trains.

As for myself, I have both DCS and Legacy, but with only one PS 3 locomotive (my PS 2 bi-polar won't fit through the lift bridge), I think I will keep the DCS, but keep my eyes open for a Lionel replacement for the MTH SW-1.

@Madockawando posted:

You should be sure that Lionel will support it. There is absolutely NO evidence they won't support remotes. As Landsteiner noted, " Lionel has the additional advantage that they are trying to remain in business as an ongoing full train line concern."

Lionel and MTH are in two very different places now. Lionel is remaining a full line Train Company, with a real hand held remotes ( 3 of them), twice a year catalogs and a full line of trains from S-scale, HO, traditional O gauge, Scooby Doo and Disney, and then all the way to O-72 scale Vision Line locomotives. MTH has shrunk, sold off much of their tooling and building, they no longer offer a remote and will no longer offer any traditional catalogs. MTH and Lionel are no longer peers in the market place. So what happens to MTH does not mean it will also happen to Lionel.

The hobby will be OK.

No one is questioning the hobby, and no one is questioning the solvency (currently) of Lionel either.  The fact that Atlas and ScaleTrains.com bought up parts of MTH is promising for the industry overall IMHO.

The electronics market is changing though, in that things are consolidating and there is more vertical integration in tech products.  Look at Apple with their custom silicon in the iPhone and soon their Macs too.  What this means is there less “general purpose” processors to pick from.  

And it’s not that there are none, but if a small company like the former MTH or Lionel picks a platform to build out quite a technically complicated system like Legacy or DCS, and that platform loses industry support, well—it can be quite expensive to switch to something else lock stock and barrel.  One thing’s for certain, they aren’t going to roll their own silicon like Apple, Microsoft, or FANG.

There might even come a time when through-hole products are sort of a “well here’s what’s left” sort of situation, because let’s face it, we eat the table scraps of whatever is left over from the big tech players.  If they don’t need the parts, and no one is requesting them in large numbers, the manufacturers aren’t going to make them.  Take a look at a computer motherboard from the mid 80s, the late 90s, and then today’s and the differences are stark.

"One thing’s for certain, they aren’t going to roll their own silicon like Apple, Microsoft, or FANG."

I'm pretty certain Lionel didn't roll their own for LionChief, LionChief+, etc.  They likely used off the shelf technology from the radio control car/airplane/drone industry.  Drones aren't enormously different from trains and that's a robust pipeline of OEM remote control technology from what I can see.  What is interesting and revealing is that MTH developed essentially one system over the last quarter century and tweaked that system. Lionel has developed TMCC, Legacy, LC, LC+ and LC +2.0.  And they make remotes that cost $40, not $150, as well as the high priced spread.  If Lionel can do it and enclose a remote in every set, why couldn't MTH have done something similar? The answer is they chose not to, for whatever reasons, and perhaps now they do not have the resources/motivation to do so.

But predicting that what happened to MTH is going to happen to Lionel is taking ouija board reliance to an unwarranted level .  That's not the way things have turned out previously,  and there's no reason the future of Lionel has to recapitulate that of MTH.  One of the things some folks thought was a strength of MTH, the reliance on one passionate and committed leader has turned out to be a long term weakness. One of the things some folks thought was a weakness of Lionel, the corporate entity, turns out to be a long term strength.  They don't rely on a sole proprietor to keep the show going.

Way back during one of the OGR York show-and-tell gatherings, when MTH first raised the topic of having to hunt down supplies of discontinued electronic components necessary for DCS remotes, after the presentation broke up, I went over to the Lionel booth and asked one of the higher-ups present whether or not Legacy was staring at that same potential problem. The answer was "Yes". Owing to a different architecture, their chicken has yet to come to roost, but as has been pointed out by those with actual experience sourcing electronic parts, that day will come eventually. Nobody will know when that is, until the manufacturer of some necessary component announces it's EOL.

---PCJ

@RailRide posted:

Way back during one of the OGR York show-and-tell gatherings, when MTH first raised the topic of having to hunt down supplies of discontinued electronic components necessary for DCS remotes, after the presentation broke up, I went over to the Lionel booth and asked one of the higher-ups present whether or not Legacy was staring at that same potential problem. The answer was "Yes". Owing to a different architecture, their chicken has yet to come to roost, but as has been pointed out by those with actual experience sourcing electronic parts, that day will come eventually. Nobody will know when that is, until the manufacturer of some necessary component announces it's EOL.

---PCJ

I think your first sentence says it all: “way back during one of the OGR York shows..”

“way back” does not equal “Lionel is going to give up remotes too”

As someone pointed out, every Lionel ready to run train set has a hand held remote. On top of that, Lionel has two additional hand held remotes. Remotes at Lionel are not going away.

This is a current MTH problem, not a Lionel problem.

@Landsteiner posted:

I'm pretty certain Lionel didn't roll their own for LionChief, LionChief+, etc.  They likely used off the shelf technology from the radio control car/airplane/drone industry.  Drones aren't enormously different from trains and that's a robust pipeline of OEM remote control technology from what I can see.  What is interesting and revealing is that MTH developed essentially one system over the last quarter century and tweaked that system. Lionel has developed TMCC, Legacy, LC, LC+ and LC +2.0.  And they make remotes that cost $40, not $150, as well as the high priced spread.  If Lionel can do it and enclose a remote in every set, why couldn't MTH have done something similar? The answer is they chose not to, for whatever reasons, and perhaps now they do not have the resources/motivation to do so.

I never said they made their own processor or radio control parts.  Your proving my point though, that companies at the Lionel and MTH level that get into tech will be forced to go where the tech industry goes.  

But predicting that what happened to MTH is going to happen to Lionel is taking ouija board reliance to an unwarranted level .  That's not the way things have turned out previously,  and there's no reason the future of Lionel has to recapitulate that of MTH.  One of the things some folks thought was a strength of MTH, the reliance on one passionate and committed leader has turned out to be a long term weakness. One of the things some folks thought was a weakness of Lionel, the corporate entity, turns out to be a long term strength.  They don't rely on a sole proprietor to keep the show going.

It’s not just Lionel that I’m predicting for, but rather anyone who doesn’t have the market heft of the tech giants.  I’m not saying I like the way it’s going, or that I like the phone/tablet app more than the remote.  I’m saying that non-tech companies have no choice but to use commodity hardware—and the industry is moving on.

I want to thank those who stayed on topic or directed others to do the same.

I am keeping a running count.  I am in contact with someone (Who I shall NOT identify--who can make it happen)  who says another run is a possibility.  However, issues unrelated to production, business matters, etc., must pass.

This person added that: "I too believe the demand is there."  BUT, It would be valuable to know precisely the number of product.  This person requested I report the figures gathered.  Please do NOT NOT NOT launch into a treatise that I must read to figure out if the answer is "hidden" in a mass of text.  Just answer number of remotes and TIUs PLEASE

I respectfully request PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE that we stay on topic.  If another run would be made in the future,  How many TIU's and Remotes would you order?

Highly Respectfully,

@Madockawando posted:

This is a current MTH problem, not a Lionel problem.

It is a past MTH problem, they’ve already moved past the remote, it’s a future Lionel problem because they either need to redesign, retool, and produce another hardware remote or use software and the phone manufacturers to do it for them.

Don’t get me wrong I prefer the remote to a smart device any day but I personally see a day without a Legacy hardware remote. If Lionel goes in that direction people will still buy their trains just like they’re scooping up the “last” runs of MTH products.

As everyone pointed out, none of us have a crystal ball so at this point it’s wait and see. Maybe you’re right. ICab certainly wasn’t a big hit but then again Lionel was and is still selling Legacy.

One TIU

two tiu  two remotes

I'd be in for 1 TIU and 2 remotes.

Trying to stay on topic here. I'm 56, so technically among the youngest of the baby boom generation, and would love to be able to squeeze at least 15 and, ideally, 20-25 good years out of my investment in 6 DCS engines.  These are all recent purchases as I have more TMCC, some upgrades with ERR, and even an LC+ engine on my roster. No issue moving back to LC+2 if for new purchases in the future, but I'm happy to contribute to the cause of keeping DCS viable.

I too would be interested in 1 TIU and 2 remotes as all my command engines are MTH.

Yes, please.   1  TUI and 1 remote.

1 TIU and 2 remotes

Ed

I would be interested in 2 TIU and 2 Remotes

One and one.

@Eccentric Crank posted:

All the DCC systems in HO are abandoning their handhelds too and going to the iphone.

- Crank

Not really - Digitrax just released a new handheld.  TCS released two handhelds in as many years.  NCE has done nothing.  I use Roco and they have wifi remotes.  Neither Digitrax, EasyDCC, nor NCE have migrated to smart phones.  Digitrax offers "JMRI in a box" via its LNWI product.

Brendan

one remote

I would be in for 1 remote and 1 tiu

Two (2) TIUs and 2 Remotes

One remote.

@Mark Boyce posted:

However, I will answer John's initial question; I would purchase one TIU and remote if offered.

John, Excellent topic!  On reflection since this may be a one time, go for broke purchase, I would like to revise my commitment to 2 TIUs and 2 remotes if this becomes a reality.

Ok, I'll buy a TIU and remote to support the community.    

I just bought a second hand MTH subway set (first MTH) so unless there is another alternative I guess I need a set too.

John

Two TIUs and one remote.

Tom

2 TIUs and 4 remotes with LCD display

I would buy 0 TIU and 0 DCS Remote.

I run Legacy and DCS with a WIU as well.  I find myself using my iPhone or iPad more and more for running my trains, and I'm an old school guy.  I still use a  PostWar 275W ZW to power the yards section.  I have Powerhouse 180's for the mains.

2 TIU and 3 remotes.

I’m going to buy another Lionel Legacy system and some more Legacy engines while you guys cry yourselves to sleep over the demise of DCS

@Steve Harris posted:

I’m going to buy another Lionel Legacy system and some more Legacy engines while you guys cry yourselves to sleep over the demise of DCS

Good idea...  Wait, you're too late!

@Steve Harris posted:

I’m going to buy another Lionel Legacy system and some more Legacy engines while you guys cry yourselves to sleep over the demise of DCS

Never could understand the mentality of those who feel the necessity to rain on others' parades. Must be a sad existence.

@raising4daughters posted:

Never could understand the mentality of those who feel the necessity to rain on others' parades. Must be a sad existence.

Not as sad as bemoaning the end of the hobby and for some the end of the world because they have to run their trains from a phone, or worse without DCS. FYI, your smart phone will run everything someday.

@Steve Harris posted:

Not as sad as bemoaning the end of the hobby and for some the end of the world because they have to run their trains from a phone, or worse without DCS. FYI, your smart phone will run everything someday.

The best anti- Mth comment to date.....too bad there's no unlike icon to click on....

@Brendan posted:

Not really - Digitrax just released a new handheld.  TCS released two handhelds in as many years.  NCE has done nothing.  I use Roco and they have wifi remotes.  Neither Digitrax, EasyDCC, nor NCE have migrated to smart phones.  Digitrax offers "JMRI in a box" via its LNWI product.

Brendan

Hybrid.... the ESU Cab Control remote:

it’s an android device in a custom box. I’m a fan. It’s easy to update, easy to use, tedious but easy to configure the functions, has a knob and 4 buttons that can be programmed to whatever function you want. The knob has motorized rezero and going past 0 changes the direction.  Holds more engines than any one person can own... oh, and it talks to the cab control base via Wifi.

I like what the TCS UWT100 can do, but it needs a bunch of stuff to talk to the ESU base and I’m just not there yet.

900 MHZ is dead. I don’t even think you can get a cordless phone in that band anymore. If you want a new remote, get with the times and campaign the new Electronics company to build a wifi remote with a thumb wheel.

i use my smart phone to call AAA when i have a flat tier,, and i use my beautiful remotes to run my trains,, i saw this coming wen it was  announce' t   YFI trains are  here ,, i told my dealers i will take ALL the MTH remotes you got so i bought six .

@Steve Harris posted:

I’m going to buy another Lionel Legacy system and some more Legacy engines while you guys cry yourselves to sleep over the demise of DCS

Jeez while I find some of the angst humorous, I wouldn't be gloating.  How is this any where near supporting the hobby.  While the OP has good intentions I still feel that ship has long sailed but I would never gloat about it.  It could have easily been Lionel dropping the hardware remote.

(Edited to correct that the angst being a leg bone to being a funny bone)

@MartyE posted:

Jeez while I find some of the angst humerus, I wouldn't be gloating.  How is this any where near supporting the hobby.  While the OP has good intentions I still feel that ship has long sailed but I would never gloat about it.  It could have easily been Lionel dropping the hardware remote.

You are absolutely right, it isn't a time for gloating. I would feel as disappointed, angry and frustrated as DCS fans feel if Lionel did the same thing.  I also think you are correct, the ship has sailed and the new DCS company isn't going to reverse course because people on OGR petition them to do so. Why? Because they can't make them any more.

Ultimately, if this thread serves as a warning to Lionel against doing the same bone-headed thing as ending hand held remotes, then this thread will have helped the hobby.

@Madockawando posted:

You are absolutely right, it isn't a time for gloating.

You mean like the gloating you did in the thread about DCS signal interference that thankfully was deleted?

@rplst8 posted:

You mean like the gloating you did in the thread about DCS signal interference that thankfully was deleted?

Huh??

On Android the last MTH App update I've seen is Nov 5th 2018.

Not really being updated that often - bigger question is the MTH DCS Wi-Fi app going to continue to receive updates in a timely manner?  As OS and hardware evolve updates will be required.

Jim

@Jim Sandman posted:

On Android the last MTH App update I've seen is Nov 5th 2018.

Not really being updated that often - bigger question is the MTH DCS Wi-Fi app going to continue to receive updates in a timely manner?  As OS and hardware evolve updates will be required.

Jim

Google is pretty easy going for allowing apps to remain on the store and allowing developers to build apps for devices going all the way back to Android version 4.x. Developers just need to keep there TOS, support and contact information up to date. Keep in mind the iCab app hasn't been updated since March 15, 2017.

I too would like to see regular updates with enhancements but to update an app on the store only to give everyone a warm fuzzy feeling with a new version number and a recent release date is a nothing burger. It's kind of like the 6.10 firmware update for the DCS remote. It did nothing for the remote (enhancement or feature wise) other than change the version number on the splash screen from 6.00 to 6.10. MTH released the 6.10 update for the DCS remote only so that it's version would match the TIU.

Getting the APK file to install the DCS app on any android device is pretty easy to do. I'm not too concerned about getting the WiFi app to work on android devices, it's a much more open platform than Apple.

Probably interested in at least 2 remotes and another TIU. I will also cancel the combo set. Thanks for the information.

@Boilermaker1 posted:

Hybrid.... the ESU Cab Control remote:

it’s an android device in a custom box. I’m a fan. It’s easy to update, easy to use, tedious but easy to configure the functions, has a knob and 4 buttons that can be programmed to whatever function you want. The knob has motorized rezero and going past 0 changes the direction.  Holds more engines than any one person can own... oh, and it talks to the cab control base via Wifi.

I like what the TCS UWT100 can do, but it needs a bunch of stuff to talk to the ESU base and I’m just not there yet.

900 MHZ is dead. I don’t even think you can get a cordless phone in that band anymore. If you want a new remote, get with the times and campaign the new Electronics company to build a wifi remote with a thumb wheel.

I had one and didn't really like it.  I think they are going in the right direction, though.

Brendan

Just a thought.......if the 900 MHZ platform is a thing of the past, would there be a way to retrofit/convert existing remotes to communicate with the TIU via WiFi?

@BlueComet400 posted:

Just a thought.......if the 900 MHZ platform is a thing of the past, would there be a way to retrofit/convert existing remotes to communicate with the TIU via WiFi?

Well then you open up a pretty big can of worms by having to modify all the existing remotes to work with the WiFi.  Seems as previously mentioned, the simple solution would to create the 900MHZ bridge to the new TIU's "remote jack" if it truly does have one.

@MartyE posted:

Well then you open up a pretty big can of worms by having to modify all the existing remotes to work with the WiFi.  Seems as previously mentioned, the simple solution would to create the 900MHZ bridge to the new TIU's "remote jack" if it truly does have one.

Wouldn't this all be a waste of time if no one is updating the remotes going forward?  You may get it to work now, but will it down the road?

@Strap Hanger posted:

Wouldn't this all be a waste of time if no one is updating the remotes going forward?  You may get it to work now, but will it down the road?

Very valid point.  Despite going forward without remotes the reality of it is there are more remotes and TIUs than Wifi and TIUs.  Seems they would still have to support the remote if with nothing else but compatibility.

I have a remote in for upgrade with 4.2 software, and I've run it with the 6.1 version of software in my TIU on the layout with no issues.  It seems that until a significant change in the protocol between the remote and the TIU happened, the RF link would still be fine.  I still think there's a place for this product idea.

@MartyE posted:

Very valid point.  Despite going forward without remotes the reality of it is there are more remotes and TIUs than Wifi and TIUs.  Seems they would still have to support the remote if with nothing else but compatibility.

There is another thread here about issues with the wifi app and the latest Apple iPad OS. The implication is that changes will have to be implemented in the app to keep up with changes in OSes. My experience with Apple OSes is they make many apps obsolete in less than 5 years and if not the App then the hardware it resides on.
Who knows, the remotes may well outlive any software dependent alternative.

Pete

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I have a remote in for upgrade with 4.2 software, and I've run it with the 6.1 version of software in my TIU on the layout with no issues.  It seems that until a significant change in the protocol between the remote and the TIU happened, the RF link would still be fine.  I still think there's a place for this product idea.

@Norton posted:

There is another thread here about issues with the wifi app and the latest Apple iPad OS. The implication is that changes will have to be implemented in the app to keep up with changes in OSes. My experience with Apple OSes is they make many apps obsolete in less than 5 years and if not the App then the hardware it resides on.
Who knows, the remotes may well outlive any software dependent alternative.

Pete

John and Pete, having dealt with upgrades in both hardware and software, including the issues of obsolescence (hey I spelled that right first try) in the telecom industry, I think both of you have valid points.   If we didn't have to constantly increase the bandwidth and features of the Internet, and deal with security issues, we could run almost any equipment indefinitely.  That is what we were doing with the old SONET (Synchronous Optical Network).  Usually when something broke, it was when we pushed a new software upgrade and some other feature stopped working.  In a closed system, like our layouts, we could run the same system at the same software level for many years.  Granted I don't expect the hardware in consumer electronics to be as reliable as on commercial hardware, but what usually breaks?  Plastic thumbwheels?

Excellent point about simply not upgrading the TIU or remote software once you get it all working.  If there are no meaningful upgrades for your operating environment and locomotives, let sleeping dogs lie.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Excellent point about simply not upgrading the TIU or remote software once you get it all working.  If there are no meaningful upgrades for your operating environment and locomotives, let sleeping dogs lie.

This often the advice I used to give people in the computer world - but security issues have rendered that advice useless.  Thankfully we mostly don't have to worry about that with our trains (WIU/phone/tablet excluded of course).  That said, what happens to us remote users when the new DCS company adds a new PS3 feature - or "PS4" comes out?  Hopefully there will at least be some period of overlap in compatibility, but I could see a time in the future where the Remotes may not be able to operate a new feature or a new version of ProtoSound.

That said, I'm still down for one more remote in the mean time.

Good point, rplst8!  I don't use most of the features we now have.  I only have one PS3 engine, and never looked into what PS3 has that PS2 doesn't.  That's just me.  I'm not a power user at anything.    I'm quite happy driving my 18-year old Hyundai for instance.    I can't take my eyes off the road and mirrors long enough to use my wife's touchscreen anyway. 

If the situation is so good that new features or a new version of ProtoSound comes out, I think we will all be quite happy wherever we stand.

1 TIU and 1 Remote for me

@rplst8 posted:

That said, what happens to us remote users when the new DCS company adds a new PS3 feature - or "PS4" comes out?

I predict a long cold winter of no updates before that happens.

So, any updates on what may or may not be happening?

In regard to the old remotes, I suspect nothing's happening.

They don’t want to make any additional remotes and more critically, they can’t.

Well, "can't" is too strong a word, clearly it's possible for them to make remotes.  We can argue that any changes to accommodate obsolete parts might make it cost prohibitive, that's another discussion.

I just made a deal with a Forum member to purchase his little used TIU and remote, thinking the chances are “remote” that TIUs that aren’t Wifi and remotes will be produced. Who knows; maybe these will outlive me.  😉

And you are right Mark, the chances are "remote".

My money is on "won't" rather than "can't" when it comes to producing the remotes for which there clearly is still demand. Mike Wolf didn't get to where he is today by saying "It can't be done."

In the end, the distinction between “won’t “ or “can’t “ is meaningless...  no remotes in either case.

Seems like this should be filed under "was never going to happen". I didn't see how if MTH can't even source the thumb wheels. But there were implications made in this thread that someone had contacts and could make it happen. . .

I guess we know where to file that as well.

Short answer:  One TIU and one remote.

Longer answer:  It really depends on cost, timing of delivery, and availability of ongoing support. Not optimistic about a favorable outcome on any of those factors.

BTW, there's a used TIU and remote currently being offered on that online auction marketplace for the bargain basement price of $650. I hope it sits there for a loooong time. 

I saw a pair go across OGR with a $400 asking price, for used equipment. These were $350 new.

"BTW, there's a used TIU and remote currently being offered on that online auction marketplace for the bargain basement price of $650. I hope it sits there for a loooong time."

"I saw a pair go across OGR with a $400 asking price, for used equipment. These were $350 new."

So the demand for remotes is there but MTH will no longer make make them and a petition will not change that situation. The demand is high enough that the market value for used equipment is above the "new" price.  No business walks away from that kind of opportunity voluntarily.

Note that Old, old Lionel TPC's (Track Power Controllers) could access MTH commands in CONVENTIONAL mode.  The new-er Powermasters can also do the CONVENTIONAL mode thing.   From a foggy head at this point.  TPC's date to the early 1990's  Part of early development of the MTH system was the copyright lawsuit, which seems rather trivial at this point.

The silver boxes.

Also note that the pictured TIU is in passive mode, only providing MTH signal to the rails.  Most operators did not understand passive mode.

The 150 page operator's manual should accompany any TIU/Handheld remote set  at this point.  IMO, Mike CT.  Some local shops did repair on these TIU's.  Common problem was internal fuses that would open, requiring replacement.

@Madockawando posted:

"BTW, there's a used TIU and remote currently being offered on that online auction marketplace for the bargain basement price of $650. I hope it sits there for a loooong time."

"I saw a pair go across OGR with a $400 asking price, for used equipment. These were $350 new."

So the demand for remotes is there but MTH will no longer make make them and a petition will not change that situation. The demand is high enough that the market value for used equipment is above the "new" price.  No business walks away from that kind of opportunity voluntarily.

I suspect the "New MTH" will take a serious look at the remote situation.  Then again when Lionel said they were going to end the Black Modules every one got mad so Lionel made sure they had a supply and then no one bought them either.

While I suspect MTH will definitely be a new entity, there is just too much product coming out for a company that is closing among other things, I suspect the new owners will see if they can justify a remote that everyone is panicking about now and when produced will possibly sit on the shelves...until they announce they are closing again.  LOL!  To be fair Mike Wolf did state they were looking for buyers so he really never said they were closing.  Nothing like creating a buying frenzy by announcing a retirement and let the internet forums do the work for you.  I have to wonder, would all of these "special runs" be selling like they are if there was a solid path for MTH or is this I have to have the last one type thing?  Until the next "last one".  The hits will keep on coming.

@Madockawando posted:

So the demand for remotes is there but MTH will no longer make make them and a petition will not change that situation. The demand is high enough that the market value for used equipment is above the "new" price.  No business walks away from that kind of opportunity voluntarily.

Sure they do, you're living in a dream world!  You don't make business decisions on a handful of people that are looking for a discontinued product!  In order to make a realistic profit on the remotes, the quantities would have to be at least a thousand or more.  There really is no question as to "if" a DCS remote can be made, it's simply a matter of "how much will it cost" to fill in the gaps for any obsolete parts.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Sure they do, you're living in a dream world!  You don't make business decisions on a handful of people that are looking for a discontinued product!  In order to make a realistic profit on the remotes, the quantities would have to be at least a thousand or more.  There really is no question as to "if" a DCS remote can be made, it's simply a matter of "how much will it cost" to fill in the gaps for any obsolete parts.

I am not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that MTH will no longer sell remotes that are in high demand because MTH won’t make money on them?  People want them, people are begging for them, people are paying high $$$ for them on the secondary market but MTH won’t sell them because there is no business case for them? But you do believe that MTH “could” sell them?

@Madockawando posted:

I am not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that MTH will no longer sell remotes that are in high demand because MTH won’t make money on them?  People want them, people are begging for them, people are paying high $$$ for them on the secondary market but MTH won’t sell them because there is no business case for them? But you do believe that MTH “could” sell them?

Maybe I'm saying, why do you even care?  You don't run DCS, but you sure have a lot of opinions on it!

Perhaps you should go back and read what I actually said, not what you think I said.  Do you really think if MTH made more remotes that people would be willing to shell out $500-600 for them?  Do you actually think it would be smart for a company to base a business decision on that assumption?  Do you actually know how big the market truly is for a new remote?  I'll answer that for you, of course you don't!  Just because people are madly looking for them now, that market could evaporate in a flash!

I have no idea if MTH, or whatever entity emerges from the ashes of MTH, will reconsider the DCS remote availability.  So, I'll just wait and see what happens and let you anguish over the lack of DCS remotes that you have no use for anyway.

@Madockawando posted:

I am not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that MTH will no longer sell remotes that are in high demand because MTH won’t make money on them?  People want them, people are begging for them, people are paying high $$$ for them on the secondary market but MTH won’t sell them because there is no business case for them? But you do believe that MTH “could” sell them?

Personally I think the demand that is being created is probably smaller than this forum represents.  But that's just me.

@Madockawando posted:

I am not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that MTH will no longer sell remotes that are in high demand because MTH won’t make money on them?  People want them, people are begging for them, people are paying high $$$ for them on the secondary market but MTH won’t sell them because there is no business case for them? But you do believe that MTH “could” sell them?

John’s hit the nail on the head and what he is saying is easy to follow. One thread on OGR that solicited non binding commitments for what - 40 maybe 50? - remotes is nowhere near what would would be required to re-engineer and re-source a device that has hit obsolescence.  A handful of overpriced used listings does not mean they are selling at those prices.

John is also 100% correct in that it CAN be done - these are simple devices of (now) old technology. There is no magic to making them if one is willing to spend the money to redesign the remote with currently-available components. Whether or not the cost of that effort can be justified is the question and the current MTH has said clearly that it isn’t as they see the world. That doesn’t mean the new DCS company will see it the same way, but the analysis will be he same: what is the cost of the redesign and can enough of them be sold to justify it?

It’s easy to sit on a forum and spend OPM. Given MTH is chopping itself into pieces, perhaps they would be agreeable to licensing the rights to make the remote to an OGR forum spinoff company? (tic)

MTH or whatever is left of MTH, will no longer have the capability to manufacture the remotes.

@Madockawando posted:

MTH or whatever is left of MTH, will no longer have the capability to manufacture the remotes.

Baloney, you have no idea what you're talking about!

I have the capability to manufacture the remotes if I were so inclined!  It's not a question of the ability, it's the question of desire.  The desire would obviously hinge on the profitability of such an endeavor.  Since I'd be starting from scratch, I see very little chance I wouldn't lose my shirt on the project, so it ain't gonna' happen here.

However, the thought that even a small company couldn't manufacture a fairly simple remote control is ridiculous!

Wow... okay then. MTH can make remotes but they refuse to do so even though their customers want them.  I’m not sure how that’s better?

@Madockawando posted:

MTH or whatever is left of MTH, will no longer have the capability to manufacture the remotes.

They are obviously still pumping out new locomotives & rolling stock. If they wanted to, a new remote could also be built. What is your source for "will no longer have the capability"?

@Madockawando posted:

Wow... okay then. MTH can make remotes but they refuse to do so even though their customers want them.  I’m not sure how that’s better?

How many customers??? Like it was stated earlier 40 maybe 50 from this thread? Let's just speculate and triple those numbers, the profitability still isn't there. How many of those 40 to 50 will cancel their orders when they realize a new remote will cost $400 Just so MTH can turn a profit?

MTH runs a business not a charity. A pithy order of 300 remotes doesn't make enough money unless the price for those remotes are well beyond what people are willing to pay. A DCS remote with an MSRP of $350 will price MTH out of business.

Define "Trolling".

M.H.M.

@H1000 posted:

They are obviously still pumping out new locomotives & rolling stock. If they wanted to, a new remote could also be built. What is your source for "will no longer have the capability"?

How many customers??? Like it was stated earlier 40 maybe 50 from this thread? Let's just speculate and triple those numbers, the profitability still isn't there. How many of those 40 to 50 will cancel their orders when they realize a new remote will cost $400 Just so MTH can turn a profit?

MTH runs a business not a charity. A pithy order of 300 remotes doesn't make enough money unless the price for those remote are well beyond what people are willing to pay. A DCS remote with an MSRP of $350 will price MTH out of business.

You raise an interesting point, does this mean that remotes are “loss leaders” for train companies?

@Madockawando posted:

You raise an interesting point, does this mean that remotes are “loss leaders” for train companies?

If you want to have that discussion, start a new post on the forum.

No new remotes, the reason isn’t technology, the reason appears to be financial. There is no profit in selling handheld remotes. Very interesting.

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

Define "Trolling".

M.H.M.

Yep, I'm outta' here, this is clearly a circular discussion and is approaching ridiculous!

There Are None So Blind As Those Who Will Not See!

Another thread (like the one about Atlas acquiring MTH tooling) that has started to turn into "Haters gonna hate".

I think there are some folks that either just like to watch the world burn or are such Lionel fanboys and that they can't stand to see anyone else compete in the market.  I don't get it.