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@MartyE posted:

Jeez while I find some of the angst humerus, I wouldn't be gloating.  How is this any where near supporting the hobby.  While the OP has good intentions I still feel that ship has long sailed but I would never gloat about it.  It could have easily been Lionel dropping the hardware remote.

You are absolutely right, it isn't a time for gloating. I would feel as disappointed, angry and frustrated as DCS fans feel if Lionel did the same thing.  I also think you are correct, the ship has sailed and the new DCS company isn't going to reverse course because people on OGR petition them to do so. Why? Because they can't make them any more.

Ultimately, if this thread serves as a warning to Lionel against doing the same bone-headed thing as ending hand held remotes, then this thread will have helped the hobby.

Last edited by Madockawando
@Jim Sandman posted:

On Android the last MTH App update I've seen is Nov 5th 2018.

Not really being updated that often - bigger question is the MTH DCS Wi-Fi app going to continue to receive updates in a timely manner?  As OS and hardware evolve updates will be required.

Jim

Google is pretty easy going for allowing apps to remain on the store and allowing developers to build apps for devices going all the way back to Android version 4.x. Developers just need to keep there TOS, support and contact information up to date. Keep in mind the iCab app hasn't been updated since March 15, 2017.

I too would like to see regular updates with enhancements but to update an app on the store only to give everyone a warm fuzzy feeling with a new version number and a recent release date is a nothing burger. It's kind of like the 6.10 firmware update for the DCS remote. It did nothing for the remote (enhancement or feature wise) other than change the version number on the splash screen from 6.00 to 6.10. MTH released the 6.10 update for the DCS remote only so that it's version would match the TIU.

Getting the APK file to install the DCS app on any android device is pretty easy to do. I'm not too concerned about getting the WiFi app to work on android devices, it's a much more open platform than Apple.

Hybrid.... the ESU Cab Control remote:



it’s an android device in a custom box. I’m a fan. It’s easy to update, easy to use, tedious but easy to configure the functions, has a knob and 4 buttons that can be programmed to whatever function you want. The knob has motorized rezero and going past 0 changes the direction.  Holds more engines than any one person can own... oh, and it talks to the cab control base via Wifi.

I like what the TCS UWT100 can do, but it needs a bunch of stuff to talk to the ESU base and I’m just not there yet.

900 MHZ is dead. I don’t even think you can get a cordless phone in that band anymore. If you want a new remote, get with the times and campaign the new Electronics company to build a wifi remote with a thumb wheel.

I had one and didn't really like it.  I think they are going in the right direction, though.

Brendan

Just a thought.......if the 900 MHZ platform is a thing of the past, would there be a way to retrofit/convert existing remotes to communicate with the TIU via WiFi?

Well then you open up a pretty big can of worms by having to modify all the existing remotes to work with the WiFi.  Seems as previously mentioned, the simple solution would to create the 900MHZ bridge to the new TIU's "remote jack" if it truly does have one.

@MartyE posted:

Well then you open up a pretty big can of worms by having to modify all the existing remotes to work with the WiFi.  Seems as previously mentioned, the simple solution would to create the 900MHZ bridge to the new TIU's "remote jack" if it truly does have one.

Wouldn't this all be a waste of time if no one is updating the remotes going forward?  You may get it to work now, but will it down the road?

Wouldn't this all be a waste of time if no one is updating the remotes going forward?  You may get it to work now, but will it down the road?

Very valid point.  Despite going forward without remotes the reality of it is there are more remotes and TIUs than Wifi and TIUs.  Seems they would still have to support the remote if with nothing else but compatibility.

Last edited by MartyE
@MartyE posted:

Very valid point.  Despite going forward without remotes the reality of it is there are more remotes and TIUs than Wifi and TIUs.  Seems they would still have to support the remote if with nothing else but compatibility.

There is another thread here about issues with the wifi app and the latest Apple iPad OS. The implication is that changes will have to be implemented in the app to keep up with changes in OSes. My experience with Apple OSes is they make many apps obsolete in less than 5 years and if not the App then the hardware it resides on.
Who knows, the remotes may well outlive any software dependent alternative.

Pete

I have a remote in for upgrade with 4.2 software, and I've run it with the 6.1 version of software in my TIU on the layout with no issues.  It seems that until a significant change in the protocol between the remote and the TIU happened, the RF link would still be fine.  I still think there's a place for this product idea.

@Norton posted:

There is another thread here about issues with the wifi app and the latest Apple iPad OS. The implication is that changes will have to be implemented in the app to keep up with changes in OSes. My experience with Apple OSes is they make many apps obsolete in less than 5 years and if not the App then the hardware it resides on.
Who knows, the remotes may well outlive any software dependent alternative.

Pete

John and Pete, having dealt with upgrades in both hardware and software, including the issues of obsolescence (hey I spelled that right first try) in the telecom industry, I think both of you have valid points.   If we didn't have to constantly increase the bandwidth and features of the Internet, and deal with security issues, we could run almost any equipment indefinitely.  That is what we were doing with the old SONET (Synchronous Optical Network).  Usually when something broke, it was when we pushed a new software upgrade and some other feature stopped working.  In a closed system, like our layouts, we could run the same system at the same software level for many years.  Granted I don't expect the hardware in consumer electronics to be as reliable as on commercial hardware, but what usually breaks?  Plastic thumbwheels?

Excellent point about simply not upgrading the TIU or remote software once you get it all working.  If there are no meaningful upgrades for your operating environment and locomotives, let sleeping dogs lie.

This often the advice I used to give people in the computer world - but security issues have rendered that advice useless.  Thankfully we mostly don't have to worry about that with our trains (WIU/phone/tablet excluded of course).  That said, what happens to us remote users when the new DCS company adds a new PS3 feature - or "PS4" comes out?  Hopefully there will at least be some period of overlap in compatibility, but I could see a time in the future where the Remotes may not be able to operate a new feature or a new version of ProtoSound.

That said, I'm still down for one more remote in the mean time.

Good point, rplst8!  I don't use most of the features we now have.  I only have one PS3 engine, and never looked into what PS3 has that PS2 doesn't.  That's just me.  I'm not a power user at anything.    I'm quite happy driving my 18-year old Hyundai for instance.    I can't take my eyes off the road and mirrors long enough to use my wife's touchscreen anyway. 

If the situation is so good that new features or a new version of ProtoSound comes out, I think we will all be quite happy wherever we stand.

Short answer:  One TIU and one remote.

Longer answer:  It really depends on cost, timing of delivery, and availability of ongoing support. Not optimistic about a favorable outcome on any of those factors.

BTW, there's a used TIU and remote currently being offered on that online auction marketplace for the bargain basement price of $650. I hope it sits there for a loooong time. 

"BTW, there's a used TIU and remote currently being offered on that online auction marketplace for the bargain basement price of $650. I hope it sits there for a loooong time."

"I saw a pair go across OGR with a $400 asking price, for used equipment. These were $350 new."



So the demand for remotes is there but MTH will no longer make make them and a petition will not change that situation. The demand is high enough that the market value for used equipment is above the "new" price.  No business walks away from that kind of opportunity voluntarily.

Note that Old, old Lionel TPC's (Track Power Controllers) could access MTH commands in CONVENTIONAL mode.  The new-er Powermasters can also do the CONVENTIONAL mode thing.   From a foggy head at this point.  TPC's date to the early 1990's  Part of early development of the MTH system was the copyright lawsuit, which seems rather trivial at this point.

The silver boxes.

Also note that the pictured TIU is in passive mode, only providing MTH signal to the rails.  Most operators did not understand passive mode.

The 150 page operator's manual should accompany any TIU/Handheld remote set  at this point.  IMO, Mike CT.  Some local shops did repair on these TIU's.  Common problem was internal fuses that would open, requiring replacement.

Last edited by Mike CT

"BTW, there's a used TIU and remote currently being offered on that online auction marketplace for the bargain basement price of $650. I hope it sits there for a loooong time."

"I saw a pair go across OGR with a $400 asking price, for used equipment. These were $350 new."



So the demand for remotes is there but MTH will no longer make make them and a petition will not change that situation. The demand is high enough that the market value for used equipment is above the "new" price.  No business walks away from that kind of opportunity voluntarily.

I suspect the "New MTH" will take a serious look at the remote situation.  Then again when Lionel said they were going to end the Black Modules every one got mad so Lionel made sure they had a supply and then no one bought them either.

While I suspect MTH will definitely be a new entity, there is just too much product coming out for a company that is closing among other things, I suspect the new owners will see if they can justify a remote that everyone is panicking about now and when produced will possibly sit on the shelves...until they announce they are closing again.  LOL!  To be fair Mike Wolf did state they were looking for buyers so he really never said they were closing.  Nothing like creating a buying frenzy by announcing a retirement and let the internet forums do the work for you.  I have to wonder, would all of these "special runs" be selling like they are if there was a solid path for MTH or is this I have to have the last one type thing?  Until the next "last one".  The hits will keep on coming.

So the demand for remotes is there but MTH will no longer make make them and a petition will not change that situation. The demand is high enough that the market value for used equipment is above the "new" price.  No business walks away from that kind of opportunity voluntarily.

Sure they do, you're living in a dream world!  You don't make business decisions on a handful of people that are looking for a discontinued product!  In order to make a realistic profit on the remotes, the quantities would have to be at least a thousand or more.  There really is no question as to "if" a DCS remote can be made, it's simply a matter of "how much will it cost" to fill in the gaps for any obsolete parts.

Sure they do, you're living in a dream world!  You don't make business decisions on a handful of people that are looking for a discontinued product!  In order to make a realistic profit on the remotes, the quantities would have to be at least a thousand or more.  There really is no question as to "if" a DCS remote can be made, it's simply a matter of "how much will it cost" to fill in the gaps for any obsolete parts.

I am not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that MTH will no longer sell remotes that are in high demand because MTH won’t make money on them?  People want them, people are begging for them, people are paying high $$$ for them on the secondary market but MTH won’t sell them because there is no business case for them? But you do believe that MTH “could” sell them?

I am not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that MTH will no longer sell remotes that are in high demand because MTH won’t make money on them?  People want them, people are begging for them, people are paying high $$$ for them on the secondary market but MTH won’t sell them because there is no business case for them? But you do believe that MTH “could” sell them?

Maybe I'm saying, why do you even care?  You don't run DCS, but you sure have a lot of opinions on it!

Perhaps you should go back and read what I actually said, not what you think I said.  Do you really think if MTH made more remotes that people would be willing to shell out $500-600 for them?  Do you actually think it would be smart for a company to base a business decision on that assumption?  Do you actually know how big the market truly is for a new remote?  I'll answer that for you, of course you don't!  Just because people are madly looking for them now, that market could evaporate in a flash!

I have no idea if MTH, or whatever entity emerges from the ashes of MTH, will reconsider the DCS remote availability.  So, I'll just wait and see what happens and let you anguish over the lack of DCS remotes that you have no use for anyway.

I am not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that MTH will no longer sell remotes that are in high demand because MTH won’t make money on them?  People want them, people are begging for them, people are paying high $$$ for them on the secondary market but MTH won’t sell them because there is no business case for them? But you do believe that MTH “could” sell them?

Personally I think the demand that is being created is probably smaller than this forum represents.  But that's just me.

Last edited by MartyE

I am not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that MTH will no longer sell remotes that are in high demand because MTH won’t make money on them?  People want them, people are begging for them, people are paying high $$$ for them on the secondary market but MTH won’t sell them because there is no business case for them? But you do believe that MTH “could” sell them?

John’s hit the nail on the head and what he is saying is easy to follow. One thread on OGR that solicited non binding commitments for what - 40 maybe 50? - remotes is nowhere near what would would be required to re-engineer and re-source a device that has hit obsolescence.  A handful of overpriced used listings does not mean they are selling at those prices.

John is also 100% correct in that it CAN be done - these are simple devices of (now) old technology. There is no magic to making them if one is willing to spend the money to redesign the remote with currently-available components. Whether or not the cost of that effort can be justified is the question and the current MTH has said clearly that it isn’t as they see the world. That doesn’t mean the new DCS company will see it the same way, but the analysis will be he same: what is the cost of the redesign and can enough of them be sold to justify it?

It’s easy to sit on a forum and spend OPM. Given MTH is chopping itself into pieces, perhaps they would be agreeable to licensing the rights to make the remote to an OGR forum spinoff company? (tic)

Last edited by Rider Sandman

MTH or whatever is left of MTH, will no longer have the capability to manufacture the remotes.

Baloney, you have no idea what you're talking about!

I have the capability to manufacture the remotes if I were so inclined!  It's not a question of the ability, it's the question of desire.  The desire would obviously hinge on the profitability of such an endeavor.  Since I'd be starting from scratch, I see very little chance I wouldn't lose my shirt on the project, so it ain't gonna' happen here.

However, the thought that even a small company couldn't manufacture a fairly simple remote control is ridiculous!

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