Are Delayed Relays My Answer?

I'm happy to try and help, but I don't think I understand what you have.  Any chance you could draw a picture of the track layout?  I think some form of delayed signaling will be your answer, but I just can't picture what you have going on.  

JGL

I have attached pictures of the layout below. The pink markings are isolated blocks. The blocks on the switch will activate the opposite side of if its entering or exiting. Black and red are the normal power for the track.

What I need is when the train hits the isolated block on the arriving switch to delay that signal from going to the relay for a few seconds. Currently it works fine with a single train and a couple cars, but we want to run 5 car passenger trains.

Thanks

If I understand it correctly, I can't understand how a delay is going to help you.  It would be speed dependent, if things are running slower than you expect, wouldn't you have the same problem?

I'm still not sure exactly what you want to do.... How many trains ? one for each siding? How do you select which train and line the switches?    What do you want the trains to do.

PS.. I   spent 6 months on one of my single track and sidings  layout hooking up blocks with relays and insulated track sections.  You lock your engine in forward and sit back and watch 'em go.. Worked pretty well too but soon became very boring. I suppose the challenge was hooking it up.    Never could get it to work in both directions .  

It sounds like your turnout and power triggers are in the wrong places. The trigger that activates the waiting train, changes the inbound/outbound turnouts, and deactivates the arriving train should be activated by the arriving train once it's far enough into the siding  to have cleared the entrance turnout. The waiting (now outbound) train should be clear of the outbound siding before it hits the trigger to reset the inbound/outbound turnouts. When it returns to its siding, it should hit a trigger that activates the original train, sending it through the properly-aligned outbound turnout. When it returns, the cycle repeats.

I'm assuming from your description that this is conventional operation with locked direction on the locomotives.

Also keep in mind that high speed can screw this up if the train coasts for a longer distance when the power is interrupted.

Is the problem that the switches are throwing when you are trying to alternate power to the other track?  Could you use a small block at the end of the siding just large enough for the engine to activate the relay? This way you could be sure your whole train made it into the siding before the switch was thrown and the power was alternated to the other track.

Matt and I are saying the same thing.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

If I understand it correctly, I can't understand how a delay is going to help you.  It would be speed dependent, if things are running slower than you expect, wouldn't you have the same problem?

On this layout there are two loops only one direction of trains, but each loop are opposite of each other. They are all conventional and only move one direction. They also have multiple power districts to control speed especially through the switches and each lane.

I have a demo video at the very bottom of my post of when I was figuring out this entire thing before I took it to the main layout.

Some facts about the alternate train control at the main layout.

It's...

• Conventional
• Two loops and each loop runs one direction only and never intersect.
  • Multiple trains in one loop, but only one at a time
• GarGrave Track, Ross Custom Switches, Z-Stuff switch machines and relays are used
• Steam engines of medium and large size old to newer and is locked to forward position
• 5 car passenger cars attached to it
• Power districts of 10, 12, 14, 16 V are used throughout the layout
  • Inside the sidings we have put appropriate power districts to slow the train down correctly to their block where it stops
  • When arriving the train is moving at a moderate speed through the switch
• My work has been soldered already (I only realized it instantly deployed when the first derail at the layout occurred.)
• Its automated because its a large room for families and kids to enjoy.

A little more facts..

• The blocks to trigger the relays for the next train to depart are at the arriving switches
  • In the video there are 3 blocks that will trigger the two relays to deploy a train
• Moving these blocks further down the line are kinda an option except
• • On the main layout I don't have enough track in the yard to do this. I would need double the length of the passenger car to properly deploy it this way
• I tried to make the triggering blocks right before the block where it parks and stops at. This made the relays fight and couldn't negotiate which siding was going to be active. That method didn't work
• We don't want to shorten the passenger cars because it looks a little odd
• We also don't want to make it go faster through the switches from what its at already, but it'll work if I make it go max speed with all the cars attached

Here is a video of it in action on my sample when I was given the task to figure this out. It works, but I need the setup to delay the deploying train a few seconds to allow the full train with cars to arrive then the other train can depart whenever.

I concluded to get this to work with a 5 passenger car train I need to delay the signal from the triggering block to the relay some how either with a device or a device that can delay the block that deploys the train (maybe this is the time delay relay).  I'm just not sure how timed relays work exactly and if its applicable to my situation.

Thanks for taking your time to read this!

Then I would suggest you move to optical sensors to detect the trains and use the blocks only for motion/track power control.

If you want an adjustable timer this will do what you are looking for. You will just have to supply the 12v dc.

DC 12V Delay relay shield NE555 Timer Switch Adjustable Module 0 to 10 Second

Link here

$2.58 free shipping

I can see how you came up 1 straight short for the passenger train. The timer should do it for you. Azatrax  uses a five second delay for their exhibit controller.

Forum member Dale H. does a lot of this type of control. email him if you get stuck. Automating a passing siding.

I have trouble determining if those timers are set up for always on and timed off or always off and timed on.

They don't do a good job of explaining that stuff in the listings.

Is it a requirement that the next train start moving before the previous one stops?   If not, you simply need to move the triggering point to the last section on each track.  Ex, no switches move or power to other trains until the first engine comes to a stop.  

JGL

NelsonW posted:

If you want an adjustable timer this will do what you are looking for. You will just have to supply the 12v dc.

 

DC 12V Delay relay shield NE555 Timer Switch Adjustable Module 0 to 10 Second

Link here

$2.58 free shipping

 

 

 

 

 

That seems exactly like the solution I'm looking for. They don't ship to Hawaii, but I found someone else that does thanks! I'll report back here on the results.

To use the timed relay successfully you are counting on the trains always running at the same speed.  Though you said you are using fixed voltage power districts, there are plenty of situations that could cause the trains to run at a different speed than you initially set the system up at.  Dirty track, dirty wheels and rollers, you haven't lubed the engine lately, someone in the family touches something...  

Optical sensors will work regardless of the speed of the train (within reason).  Azatrax has a nice product that I've used to successfully prevent collisions on crossings and turnouts with my 3 year old at the transformer.

elementdude195 posted:

NelsonW posted:

If you want an adjustable timer this will do what you are looking for. You will just have to supply the 12v dc.

 

DC 12V Delay relay shield NE555 Timer Switch Adjustable Module 0 to 10 Second

Link here

$2.58 free shipping

 

 

 

 

 

That seems exactly like the solution I'm looking for. They don't ship to Hawaii, but I found someone else that does thanks! I'll report back here on the results.

Question now since I bought 4 of these delay timers. How exactly do I do 12v DC? Do I need a battery or can like a AC adapter be used or some converter to go form AC to 12v DC? I was hoping I could just use the ACC power the guys setup for everyone to use from an old ZW.

Also I thought about how I wanted to delay the automation on the layout from earlier. Now I want to only delay the power going into the blocks where the locomotives are deploying from when those specific sections are activated on the relay. I found a problem with my solution earlier and thought of a way to correct it because if I delay it from the switch where its arriving from the arriving train will just run away with the departing train because the block it arrives on is being delayed from turning off too. I want to narrow my windows of error for the arriving locomotives since they are all so different in age, size, and technology.

If everything is activates properly just like the video and I only delay the block where the locomotives departs from I'll be all good. Hopefully there is an item for it. I think guys are getting excited to run all the trains to start breaking them in since they're starting to oil some of them. 

Thanks!

Hi Element,

I know this is an old thread, but were you able to get this to work? What was the solution?

Also, the power districts you have, are they a different transformer set for 10, 12... for each district? Sorry, if seems like a silly question, just started playing with more advance wiring ideas.

Thanks,

Lou

Hi Lou,

Yes, I did get it all of it working. I learned lots during this entire process.

The summary of this project was the Z-stuff documentation had errors, which I did let them know about and for the individual block on each siding has a time delay relay that receivers power only when the Z-stuff relays throws power to it.

The time delay relay was another project in itself. I got DC powered time delay relays that are powered with AC accessory power that is converted to dc with a bridge rectifier. Once the time delay relay receives power from the Z-stuff relays it starts counting down to 0 then proceeds to turn it's own relay on to give that block power.

I hope that makes sense? If not I can upload a video of it in action at the museum I volunteer at.

Thanks for the reply!

I think I understand what you did. The documentation being off I’m sure didn’t help. I have been bench playing with relays, so I’ll see if I can replicate what you did.

As for making the train slow down, did you create isolated center rails and each block is powered by its own transformer?  

Thanks again,

Lou