I'm contemplating a LIRR Non-Powered FA Unit from the new MTH Catalogue to prototypically run at the end of my LIRR Passenger Set pulled by my Nassau Hobby Center Special Premier GP38-2. However, past Non-Powered F Units are wired to only run as slaves to a Powered F Unit.
Are MTH's newest Non-Powered F Units still wired to only run as slaves? Or are they truly Non-Powered with no motors and no wire harness?
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They're dummies so ultimately they are a glorified box car. The dummies dont run anything wiring is just passed through them for the powered slave unit. I believe MTH is no longer producing powered slave units
Thanks, Matt. I appreciate the quick response.
So to verify: These newer Non-Powered F Units have no motors, no wire harness, no socket to receive a wire harness, no slave boards and, I assume, no lighting. Just as MTH's other model Non-Powered Units, these newer Non-Powered F Units are free rolling and are able to place anywhere in a consist without the need to plug into a Powered Unit in order to move.
The non-powered units have always been free rolling. The tether did nothing inside the dummy, it was just a pass through cable for the slaved powered A unit on the other side of the dummy B. If you only had a single powered unit, you didnt need to plug those cables in, and could even rip them out if you wanted to.
Language:
Slave or not, no unit with motors is "non-powered"! It takes commands from the master, but it is not a "dummy". By definition.
Boilermaker1 & D500,
Thanks for the replies. Just to clarify: I'm actually thinking of purchasing the Non-Powered "A" Unit, not a "B" Unit. I knew that the B Units were always able to roll freely and that the A Units were not, as they contained electronics that were slaved to the Powered Unit.
Are the newer Non-Powered "A" Units now free rolling?
A slave unit IS powered. Thats why it wouldnt roll freely. The non-powered units were always just locomotive shaped boxcars. It seems like you're mis-interpreting the slaved unit for non-powered... they're not the same thing.
Scott M posted:Boilermaker1 & D500,
Thanks for the replies. Just to clarify: I'm actually thinking of purchasing the Non-Powered "A" Unit, not a "B" Unit. I knew that the B Units were always able to roll freely and that the A Units were not, as they contained electronics that were slaved to the Powered Unit.
Are the newer Non-Powered "A" Units now free rolling?
All non-powered units are free rolling. All of them. It makes no difference if they are A units or B units. If they are NON-powered, they are free rolling. They always have been. They are also called dummies or dummy units.
Any internal circuitry they may have would be merely to control lights, couplers, and such.
Are you misunderstanding some of the terminology?
I suppose that I need to start over, as I'm not misunderstanding the difference between a Slave Unit and a Non-Powered Unit nor am I misunderstanding any terminology.
It's really quite simple: Older offerings of MTH F Units (F3s, F7s, FAs, etc) that had been sold as sets (ABA) distinctly had the Non-Powered A Unit wired as a "Slave" to the Powered A Unit. Meaning that this Non-Powered A Unit did indeed have a motor, yet it would not operate unless it's tether was connected to the Powered A Unit (either directly or through the Non-Powered B Unit). This Non-Powered A Unit was not free rolling and, again, would only operate if tethered to the Powered Unit.
My question is simply: Are the newer offerings of MTH Non-Powered F Units that are now sold separately (not in sets) still Slave Units? Or are they free rolling and not needing to be tethered to a Powered Unit in order to "roll"?
any non-powered "A' or "b" unit would be free rolling.........i never heard of a non power unit having motors[ did i just say that?]
Wow! Talk about confusion...
ScottM, older MTH ABA units had a powered A with all the electronics, a non-powered B with no motors, and a slave A which had motors but had to be tethered to the powered A to run. I think you knew that, but most of the replies were going somewhere else, to say the least.
This last year or so, MTH has started selling ABA's individually. If it's current production MTH, both A units should have motors and electronics to run separately. I would contact the dealer/seller to confirm this, of course, because I'm not sure when and on what engines this change came into effect.
Scott M posted:I suppose that I need to start over, as I'm not misunderstanding the difference between a Slave Unit and a Non-Powered Unit nor am I misunderstanding any terminology.
It is a misunderstanding of terminology.
It's really quite simple: Older offerings of MTH F Units (F3s, F7s, FAs, etc) that had been sold as sets (ABA) distinctly had the Non-Powered A Unit wired as a "Slave" to the Powered A Unit. Meaning that this Non-Powered A Unit did indeed have a motor, yet it would not operate unless it's tether was connected to the Powered A Unit (either directly or through the Non-Powered B Unit). This Non-Powered A Unit was not free rolling and, again, would only operate if tethered to the Powered Unit.
If it has motors, and cant run without the head unit, this is a SLAVE UNIT. That is not the same as a non-powered unit. The fact that is has motors makes it powered.
My question is simply: Are the newer offerings of MTH Non-Powered F Units that are now sold separately (not in sets) still Slave Units? Or are they free rolling and not needing to be tethered to a Powered Unit in order to "roll"?
The non-powered units are exactly that. No motors, no gears, nothing. Its a locomotive chassis on free rolling wheels.
Scott M posted:I suppose that I need to start over, as I'm not misunderstanding the difference between a Slave Unit and a Non-Powered Unit nor am I misunderstanding any terminology.
It's really quite simple: Older offerings of MTH F Units (F3s, F7s, FAs, etc) that had been sold as sets (ABA) distinctly had the Non-Powered A Unit wired as a "Slave" to the Powered A Unit. Meaning that this Non-Powered A Unit did indeed have a motor, yet it would not operate unless it's tether was connected to the Powered A Unit (either directly or through the Non-Powered B Unit). This Non-Powered A Unit was not free rolling and, again, would only operate if tethered to the Powered Unit.
My question is simply: Are the newer offerings of MTH Non-Powered F Units that are now sold separately (not in sets) still Slave Units? Or are they free rolling and not needing to be tethered to a Powered Unit in order to "roll"?
It's quite clear that you are, indeed, misunderstanding the terminology. If it's got a motor, it's a powered unit, whether it can run by itself or not.
A slave unit can be a number of things:
-a powered unit that must be connected to the master to run
-an un-powered unit that needs a tether to control lights/couplers/smoke/etc
-needs a tether, but can either be powered or non-powered
A NON-POWERED unit can be tethered or un-tethered, depending on what is inside it, but a NON-POWERED unit is always free to roll.
The word "powered" means it has motors and can provide force to move a train, not whether or not it has electrical power going to it. It has nothing to do with whether it has a tether to provide electrical power to it.
The word "power" in the title of a powered unit refers to motors that provide motive force. A non-powered unit has no motors. If it has no motors, it is free to roll.
BRR: You hear me! I just don't know what everyone else is drinking, though!
Anyway, we're getting too deep into the weeds with this "Non-Powered" vs "Slave" title. Quite frankly, I don't care what you want to call the trailing unit...All I want is an answer to one simple question:
Do the new MTH Premier "Non-Powered" A Units have motors and tethers and are therefore "Slaves" to the lead unit? Or are they truly free rolling?
I'll call MTH and get the answer.
Hopefully you will at least listen to what THEY say.
Thank you, I will.
I'm just curious as to why I couldn't a simple answer to a simple question here...Just digressions into semantics.
If you don't know the answer to a question, don't reply.
Again, I don't care what you call the trailing unit. Non-Powered, Dummy, Slave, Choo Choo, it doesn't matter. My question was simple.
But no one knew the answer.
Scott M, I have no horse in this race but am perplexed by the dismissive tone of your posts. From beginning to end, you seem to be suggesting that non-powered units might have motors (see the title of your post, your statement that "this Non-Powered A unit did indeed have a motor," or your exasperated "Do the new MTH 'Non-Powered' A units have motors . . . .?"). As several posters noted, non-powered units by definition do not have motors. It's still not clear to me exactly what you're asking, but it is clear that there is no basis for suggesting others are being dimwitted in pointing out that non-powered units do not have motors.
So, you do not have a simple answer to my simple question either. Correct?
Here's a simple statement as noted by others: "Non-Powered A units" do not have motors. And they never have.
You can call it a dummy "A" because it has no brain or call it a slave because it does whatever it is asked of it, but because it has motors you can't call it a non powered unit. Period!!!
IMO, the only practical improvement for most folks between earlier MTH double A cab units and their latest release is the addition of sound in the second "A" unit . The slave now has a brain, speaks and moves independently but you'll pay dearly for the upgrade. Cost nearly doubled. I bought the last release of the older powered/slave cab unit. It has P-3, updated sound file, runs beautifully and paid under $600 for this E-6 A-B-A set. MTH should have made the costly upgrade an option.
Joe
Do the NEW MTH Premier "Non-Powered" A Units have motors and tethers and are therefore "Slaves" to the lead unit? No. They do not have motors nor tethers.
Or are they truly free rolling? Yes.
Phil,
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!
Not only are those exact answers to my exact questions, but they were precisely the answers that I was hoping for!
Again: Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!
Hudson J1e posted:Do the NEW MTH Premier "Non-Powered" A Units have motors and tethers and are therefore "Slaves" to the lead unit? No. They do not have motors nor tethers.
Or are they truly free rolling? Yes.
Its been pretty much this way since day 1.......
Hudson J1e posted:Do the NEW MTH Premier "Non-Powered" A Units have motors and tethers and are therefore "Slaves" to the lead unit? No. They do not have motors nor tethers.
Or are they truly free rolling? Yes.
Wrong. You have a choice. The powered "A" unit is available in two road numbers. Both units are identical. Also available, a non-powered "A" and a non-powered "B". However, and sadly, Cab units are no longer available as a A-B-A set with the powered "A", non powered "B" and the lower cost powered slave "A" .
Joe.
Wow.
JC642 posted:Hudson J1e posted:Do the NEW MTH Premier "Non-Powered" A Units have motors and tethers and are therefore "Slaves" to the lead unit? No. They do not have motors nor tethers.
Or are they truly free rolling? Yes.
Wrong. You have a choice. The powered "A" unit comes in two road numbers. Both units are identical. Also available, a non-powered "A" and a non-powered "B". However, and sadly, Cab units are no longer sold as a lower cost set with the powered "A" the non powered "B" and the lower cost powered slave "A"
Joe.
No you are are WRONG about me being wrong. I was right because SCOTT M asked SPECIFICALLY about "Non-Powered" A units. I answered his questions truthfully and to the best of my knowledge. He didn't ask about road numbers for powered A units nor did he ask about "cab units no longer sold as a lower cost set" or the cost differences between the way MTH used to sell an A-B-A set as compared to how they sell it now. Nor did he ask if he has a choice. However, I do agree with what you said after you said I was wrong but my answers were and still are correct. If I am wrong, please post a picture of a NEW MTH Non-powered unit that has a tether or is not free rolling.
You are welcome Scott. It's always great to help out a fellow TCA member.
Hudson J1e posted:JC642 posted:Hudson J1e posted:Do the NEW MTH Premier "Non-Powered" A Units have motors and tethers and are therefore "Slaves" to the lead unit? No. They do not have motors nor tethers.
Or are they truly free rolling? Yes.
Wrong. You have a choice. The powered "A" unit comes in two road numbers. Both units are identical. Also available, a non-powered "A" and a non-powered "B". However, and sadly, Cab units are no longer sold as a lower cost set with the powered "A" the non powered "B" and the lower cost powered slave "A"
Joe.
No you are are WRONG about me being wrong. I was right because SCOTT M asked SPECIFICALLY about "Non-Powered" A units. I answered his questions truthfully and to the best of my knowledge. He didn't ask about road numbers for powered A units nor did he ask about "cab units no longer sold as a lower cost set" or the cost differences between the way MTH used to sell an A-B-A set as compared to how they sell it now. Nor did he ask if he has a choice. However, I do agree with what you said after you said I was wrong but my answers were and still are correct. If I am wrong, please post a picture of a NEW MTH Non-powered unit that has a tether or is not free rolling.
Yep, Sorry, you were right. I did not fully read your post before I replied.
Joe
Thanks Joe.
Not to stir the pot anymore than it has been, but I have a Milwaukee Road DL110 powered slave unit. It is stated that way on the box. The DL110 is the B unit to the DL109. I picked it up at auction for next to nothing, but don't have a corresponding A master unit to pull it. Do the master A units have a special PS2 board for master / slave operation or do the electronics come with a standard PS2 board? I know mentioning standard and anything in this scale is treading on dangerous water.
While the OP question has been answered already in various forms, MTH does not use the tether system anymore on diesel sets. They are either powered or dummy in lieu of the hybrid tethered units of the past.
GG1 4877 posted:Not to stir the pot anymore than it has been, but I have a Milwaukee Road DL110 powered slave unit. It is stated that way on the box. The DL110 is the B unit to the DL109. I picked it up at auction for next to nothing, but don't have a corresponding A master unit to pull it. Do the master A units have a special PS2 board for master / slave operation or do the electronics come with a standard PS2 board? I know mentioning standard and anything in this scale is treading on dangerous water.
While the OP question has been answered already in various forms, MTH does not use the tether system anymore on diesel sets. They are either powered or dummy in lieu of the hybrid tethered units of the past.
Unless you can find its mate, the matching "A" unit, your "B" unit is almost worthless. Your unit has the original PS1 QSI board. It's conventional powered, not command controlled.
Joe
Thanks for the info. I only paid $20 for it so no loss on my part. I think it's worth that much at least in parts. 
GG1 4877 posted:Thanks for the info. I only paid $20 for it so no loss on my part. I think it's worth that much at least in parts.
There were sets of this series produced with Proto 2 electronics. They were still a master/slave set and required a tether. I suspect if yours is PS2, any tetherable PS2 unit would work with your slave board. Without your model number, however, it is hard to answer definitively.
GG1 4877 posted:Not to stir the pot anymore than it has been, but I have a Milwaukee Road DL110 powered slave unit. It is stated that way on the box. The DL110 is the B unit to the DL109. I picked it up at auction for next to nothing, but don't have a corresponding A master unit to pull it. Do the master A units have a special PS2 board for master / slave operation or do the electronics come with a standard PS2 board? I know mentioning standard and anything in this scale is treading on dangerous water.
While the OP question has been answered already in various forms, MTH does not use the tether system anymore on diesel sets. They are either powered or dummy in lieu of the hybrid tethered units of the past.
Some of the PS-1 slave units will operate on their own without a master unit hooked up. You could put your B unit on the track and try it out. It starts in neutral before forward.
Scott M posted:I'm contemplating a LIRR Non-Powered FA Unit from the new MTH Catalogue to prototypically run at the end of my LIRR Passenger Set pulled by my Nassau Hobby Center Special Premier GP38-2. However, past Non-Powered F Units are wired to only run as slaves to a Powered F Unit.
Are MTH's newest Non-Powered F Units still wired to only run as slaves? Or are they truly Non-Powered with no motors and no wire harness?
I have read this thread and found it rather profound, if not somewhat humorous. Where confusion began is the difference between slaved powered units and dummies. MTH has not produced slaves in some time and has also stopped supplying slave boards. You must now put PS3/2 in all powered units and consist them when upgrading an old PS1 master/slave set.
The A/Master unit had the primary board set and the second A or B/Slave unit had a "slave" board that synced it with the Master to run in the proper direction. Anytime a diesel is referred to as a Dummy in Model Railroad speak it is "assumed" there is no motor present and therefore would be "pushable."
I believe you got your answer, eventually, and that is all cataloged "dummy" units are just that, non-powered. Occasionally they will light, but that is all. I hope you'll still enjoy the forum and feel free to post again. Sorry to get to the party so late.
Scott M posted:I'm contemplating a LIRR Non-Powered FA Unit from the new MTH Catalogue to prototypically run at the end of my LIRR Passenger Set pulled by my Nassau Hobby Center Special Premier GP38-2.
Think about this: With a dummy unit, how are you going to control the headlight, bell and whistle? Also, the LIRR Alcos still had the diesel engine, which, although it was no longer powering traction motors, was used for head-end power to provide lighting, heating, and air-conditioning in the cars. How's the sound in that dummy unit?
"What we have here is a failure to communicate..."
"What we have here is a failure to communicate..."
Wish I could have got here sooner.
Here's the deal: I recently bought MTH Santa Fe F7's with PS3, one is powered and the other is unpowered BUT HAS center rail pickups for the working headlight (a perfect config for trains with cabs at both ends). If MTH makes this config for your FA, you're there!
Now to belabor the point:
It is non-powered. It is not a "slave". It is free rolling. It has working lights. No sound. No smoke. The diapragm hinges down to reveal headlight controls.
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