I am not familiar with TMCC. I wonder if it's possible to design a loco that all function wires terminate in a socket, into which either TMCC or PS3 could be plugged. The TMCC or PS3 need not utilize every terminal on the socket. This could save Atlas considerable money on inventory. Buy an ATlas loco, and have the dealer plug in a PS3, TMCC, or conventional reversing unit.
@RJR posted:I am not familiar with TMCC. I wonder if it's possible to design a loco that all function wires terminate in a socket, into which either TMCC or PS3 could be plugged. The TMCC or PS3 need not utilize every terminal on the socket. This could save Atlas considerable money on inventory. Buy an ATlas loco, and have the dealer plug in a PS3, TMCC, or conventional reversing unit.
Unlikely. The only common item is LED lighting. Couplers, speaker impedance, and motor tach are different.
Pete
Atlas builds models. They have always used 3rd party electronics. Best hope for TMCC only users is they continue to offer it as an option. Maybe they will offer engines with no electronics and let the buyer install whatever they want. DCC, PS3, and ERR are not that difficult to install especially if you start out with an empty space.
Pete
I don’t think Atlas is licensing DCS not to use it. The new DCS entity will be making the product. I don’t believe the DCS entity is interested or cares about TMCC.
It’ll be up to Atlas what command control system they desire to put inside their locomotive. And again, they wouldn’t license DCS if they didn’t plan to install it.
Since everything is BTO now, maybe they can offer both plus conventional control.
@Lou1985 posted:1. Just because DCS doesn't work for one person does not mean it's "unreliable". I've had 0 issues with DCS or TMCC. All I did in setup was read the instructions that came with my TIU, wired it how I was instructed to, and it has operated perfectly since day 1.
Although I do think it’s unreliable, I believe it’s more likely to be unreliable on larger layouts. How big is your layout?
Yes all you have to do with Legacy/TMCC is hook up one wire and you're good to go. Being that it uses radio signal there are people who have issues with the system getting interfered with by their house wiring or layout setup. So even Legacy/TMCC isn't a perfectly reliable system
2. The only reason DCS doesn't have the same things is because MTH never licensed it. They might now, and then there could be aftermarket products.
3. The only real "upgrade" path to Legacy is to buy a new Lionel locomotive. Lionel doesn't make Legacy upgrade kits available to the consumer. Want Legacy in an older locomotive? You have to make your own kit by ordering boards from Lionel and building your own wire harness. You can get older TMCC kits but in diesels you only get 4 RPM sound levels, steam needs extra hardware for 4 chuffs and puffing fan smoke. PS3 kits gets you all those features, plus remote couplers, out of the box without additional parts. Plus you get a locomotive that has the same features as a brand new PS3 locomotive out of the box. In addition there are hundreds of sound files that can be added to a PS3 locomotive, plus existing files can be modified and by the end user with programs like ADPCM.
That’s if you don’t get engine error, engine not found and out of rf range first
ERR upgrades give you limited files, nothing locomotive specific, and you can't change them. As far as Legacy Railsounds being the best around that's debatable. There are sounds in DCC that blow Railsounds out of the water.
I own PS2, PS3, TMCC, and Legacy locomotives. Quite honestly for those who want to operate their trains in a prototypical manner with the correct sounds (whistles/horns/bells) or be able to change them when they want DCS is the better, more advanced system.
Interesting that you would tout operating your trains in a prototypical manner yet you're running 3 rail 😂
A couple of observations about DCS.
If you like updating sounds files, software and electrical engineering than DCS is for you.
That DCS remote feels like it’s gonna fall apart in your hands. The remote could use a serious upgrade.
I have both Legacy and DCS. I love my MTH locos but I want reliability in operations, everything else is secondary to trains running reliably.
Depending on the future support/service of DCS will determine whether or not my current roster of MTH engine get retro fitted with TMCC. I’ve been at my wits end more than once with DCS and it’s unreliability. Depending on it’s future will determine whether I send a pile of MTH engines to Alex Maliae for TMCC conversions. Let’s wait and see
One item not considered with this licensing is if it there is an exclusivity clause in the agreement that prohibits the use of TMCC. I don't have a speculation either way, but it is entirely possible. However from a manufacturer's standpoint it is logical to use a single command system in general to minimize complexity. I will continue to watch and see what happens. Personally the only command system that matters to me is DCC in 2 rail. I don't see much benefit between DCS or TMCC in 3 rail as long as the system is reliable as mentioned above.
@Steve Harris posted:A couple of observations about DCS.
If you like updating sounds files, software and electrical engineering than DCS is for you.
That DCS remote feels like it’s gonna fall apart in your hands. The remote could use a serious upgrade.
I have both Legacy and DCS. I love my MTH locos but I want reliability in operations, everything else is secondary to trains running reliably.
Depending on the future support/service of DCS will determine whether or not my current roster of MTH engine get retro fitted with TMCC. I’ve been at my wits end more than once with DCS and it’s unreliability. Depending on it’s future will determine whether I send a pile of MTH engines to Alex Maliae for TMCC conversions. Let’s wait and see
"Although I do think it’s unreliable, I believe it’s more likely to be unreliable on larger layouts. How big is your layout?"
16'X17'. Two interconnected loops, 7 sidings, a turntable, and 9 whisker tracks. Got 10s for DCS signal strength everywhere.
"That’s if you don’t get engine error, engine not found and out of rf range first"
I've never had that issue. I have 15 DCS locomotives and they all run without issue, and I've modified or changed the sound file on each one.
"Interesting that you would tout operating your trains in a prototypical manner yet you're running 3 rail 😂"
I run 3 rail because I can turn a scale AC6 Cab Forward on a 36" radius curve. Can't do that in 2 rail O. DCS has pre-programmed whistle sequences, so you can hit the SXS key and your locomotive will play the correct whistle sequence as it approaches a crossing on your layout at a set scale speed. Pretty prototypical to me 😉.
DCS has been plenty reliable for me. I read the instructions that came with the TIU, followed them, and it’s been perfectly fine for me. Never bothered with any add on materials. It's not hard to use at all. I run TMCC and DCS on my layout without any issues at all. In fact I run my TMCC locomotives with the DCS remote 90% of the time.
I will agree the thumb wheel on the remote sucks. I'd prefer a knob like on a Cab-1.
Before we moved I had very good reliability with DCS on my former 54’ X 32’ layout with six loops on three levels. My 17 year old DCS system and remote still works as good as new. Initially I had some of the error messages, but then I just simplified the wiring to bus wires and I haven’t had a problem since. Only time I get error messages is if the remote batteries are low.
I like being able to get software updates via my computer. I remember having to send my whole Legacy system back to Lionel with specific mailing instructions for the first Legacy update.
I love my MTH locomotives, but I always wondered and hoped that someday Atlas O and their high quality locomotives would have DCS installed. Seems like that day is coming to fruition!
Steve, you must have strong hands. My grandkids often tried to crack the concrete floor with the remotes, and were unsuccessful in damaging either.
My 35'x16' layour is, and has been, quite reliable. DCS only with capability of operating many trains conventionally simultaneously.
"If you like updating sounds files, software and electrical engineering than DCS is for you."
Hardly the case in my experience. I've had dcs for almost 17 years and never updated a sound file for an engine (they sound great to me), I hate electrical engineering (i just know how to wire a layout in a star wiring pattern) and have only updated the TIU three times to utilize new and improved software features. I get all 9s and 10s on my four levels, 10 loops, over 20 sidetracks and isolated blocks. I have no doubt people here are sincere in their difficulties. It just hasn't been that way for me. Not even close. Love my dcs command and conventional control.
"One item not considered with this licensing is if it there is an exclusivity clause in the agreement that prohibits the use of TMCC. "
This would potentially be illegal under anti-trust law , as an anti-competitive practice, should anyone want to litigate it. MTH could probably incorporate a legally defensible clause requiring Atlas use of PS3 in formerly MTH locos, but could not legally specify that a competitor's product could not be used at all. Atlas would be very foolish indeed to agree to restricting their use of other products down the road, of course, but we don't know and probably may never know the details of the contract.
I'm not a lawyer, of course 
.
@Landsteiner posted:I'm not a lawyer, of course
You might qualify if you slept at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
@Traindiesel posted:...... but then I just simplified the wiring to bus wires and I haven’t had a problem since.
Interesting that the manual says avoid common bus wiring. Also says to clean off the blackening on top of the center rail. I wonder how many people have done that.
Sounds as if Atlas bought just full scale MTH diesels and cars, no semi-scale tooling (sorry I have not had time read these previous five pages of comments 
). Too bad, as its getting harder to find "small" cars to run on small layout sharper curves without looking out of place (trucks jutting out, car body hanging way over the curves). The few full size cars I have are parked on sidings in far corner of layout to diminish the out of proportion look. I can run those "huge" cars for myself but never when there is open house.
But that just me and my layout 
.
@Steve Harris posted:Also says to clean off the blackening on top of the center rail.
IMO, that statement applies to MTH track. I had to do that with Real Trax. My LTS, uses Atlas on his layouts. He told me that he did not remove the blackening.
@Landsteiner posted:"One item not considered with this licensing is if it there is an exclusivity clause in the agreement that prohibits the use of TMCC. "
This would potentially be illegal under anti-trust law , as an anti-competitive practice, should anyone want to litigate it. MTH could probably incorporate a legally defensible clause requiring Atlas use of PS3 in formerly MTH locos, but could not legally specify that a competitor's product could not be used at all. Atlas would be very foolish indeed to agree to restricting their use of other products down the road, of course, but we don't know and probably may never know the details of the contract.
I'm not a lawyer, of course
That makes sense. I would think that Atlas would want the flexibility to use what ever command control system it wants. While it certainly makes sense for Atlas to use the tooling, I am a bit skeptical of the value of using MTH packaging and MTH control system for these locomotives. Given the historical slowness of Atlas getting locomotives to market, are Atlas customers really going to care a couple of years from now that these Atlas locomotives come in "MTH" boxes? Also, given the success of Lionel's Legacy and TMCC systems, is anyone a couple of years from now really going to want locomotives with command system technology from a defunct company?
My point is that time works against any value of tying these upcoming Atlas locomotives too closely to their old MTH roots. It seems more logical to equip these locomotives with what ever version of TMCC is current and slap them in Atlas boxes. The people that are going to purchase these locomotives are operators, not collectors. All they will care about is how it looks and how it runs. The color box will make no difference to them. Don't think 2021, think ahead to 2023 or 2024.
@RJR posted:I am not familiar with TMCC. I wonder if it's possible to design a loco that all function wires terminate in a socket, into which either TMCC or PS3 could be plugged. The TMCC or PS3 need not utilize every terminal on the socket. This could save Atlas considerable money on inventory. Buy an ATlas loco, and have the dealer plug in a PS3, TMCC, or conventional reversing unit.
Oh now that would be too simple, easy and convenient like plugging a DCC board into HO engine socket. Don't you enjoy wading your way through a maze of wire bundles wondering where that yellow wire goes or does, why is this white wire spliced into the green and blue soldered to the motor??? etc, etc ,etc 
There are Lionel and MTH software “camps”. Atlas will probably try to accommodate both (read not alienate) As Long As it Makes ECONOMIC SENSE !!! And to do this, everything would be BTO and probably require a non-refundable deposit. Juggling the two systems will add complexity to the manufacturing chain.
Which system is scaleable ? That is, which has the best ability to be easily changed/modified/upgraded ? That might be the winner. Remember. They want to make money. To make money - simple always wins.
I Sure Don’t Know where the software situation will go. Time will tell. Help them decide and step up and buy some of your favorite products as this unfolds. In a way - you get to vote with your $ spent.
All - IMO 😬
Cheers !!!
PS The Real Key here is the FACTORY !!! Think about it !!!!
"My point is that time works against any value of tying these upcoming Atlas locomotives too closely to their old MTH roots. It seems more logical to equip these locomotives with what ever version of TMCC is current and slap them in Atlas boxes. The people that are going to purchase these locomotives are operators, not collectors. All they will care about is how it looks and how it runs. The color box will make no difference to them. Don't think 2021, think ahead to 2023 or 2024."
Excellent comment.
IMO, it would be foolish for Atlas to tie itself to the old and defunct MTH company. Why do that? Atlas has an established O gauge rep (for better generally, and for worse occasionally). The new "Atlas" locs will be that: Atlas locs with whatever remote system Atlas installs. In my case, if it's DCS, then I won't buy. If it's TMCC -- or a newly licensed Legacy-driven loc (nobody has mentioned the possibility that Lionel might license Legacy given the changing hobby), then I may just buy.
Atlas will be thinking ahead to 2024 ... and beyond ... and establishing a market for their new locs probably in the current Atlas box-color scheme.
