Atlas O MP15 with ESU Loksound Select L sound decoder upgrade

That is really nice ..... sound and operation! Really like it. (Those red CP engines are sharp looking, too!)

So, retailers don't load the prime movers that you request into the decoder? I guess only the retailers that do repairs/installations do ... such as Tony's in Vermont?

If you do decide to try a speaker upgrade, please post your results on the forum. Thanks.

Have used the Loksound L decoder & highly recommend it! The supplier I used here in the UK (Coastal DCC) loaded the sound file I wanted for me.

I fitted mine in an AtlasO TM RS3, similarly replacing a QSI decoder, which had been factory-fitted in an F-3. Someone re-programmed it with Alco sounds for me, but it still didn't sound right to me - except for the horn, which was awesome; even slightly better than the Loksound, & totally blew away (no pun intended!) Tsunami horns.

But overall the Loksound is much better all round.

I installed a small LokSound Select in a Sunset 44 ton engine 2 years ago, because they were the only ones to offer the correct sound set at the time. Fantastic control and sound.

Wow!  Great looks and great sound.

I was there while Scott ran the engine/consist around the layout and then did the photo/video shoot.  The low end motor control --  and at all speeds is as good as it gets.  The prime mover, bell, horn and other sounds are very crisp even with the stock Atlas O speaker with whatever attention Atlas paid to acoustics.

And how about that much cleaner and more reliable looking installation!   The O Scale engine manufactures should take a look at this!  

Thanks Scott for showing the gang a well done project!

do you guys ever meet at Frank Schmidts place?

Looks good!  Sounds great!

Dave

Bob Anson posted:

do you guys ever meet at Frank Schmidts place?

Yes, we have met at Frank's place at previous get-togethers and saw his fantastic 2-Rail O scale layout. Frank was in attendance over at this meeting as well.  A nice selection of O5W and P48 modelers here in Austin. 

Scott Kay

Austin, TX

Nice job! Looks great, sounds great, and runs great. What's not to like?  I mean.... Man that's really lousy, you should let me take that off your hands so you don't have to look at it anymore

Fantastic work!  Sounds great and certainly operates a lot better with the ESU Loksound Select L.

Seeing and hearing Scott's engine in person convinced me so I ordered two ESU Loksound Select L decoders, the ESU Programmer and the ESU decoder tester.  Look forward to installing the decoders in steam engines and comparing the results to my 6 amp QSI Titan Magnum Q2 and Q3 equipped steam engine installations. 

Will compare:  Ease of installation and programming.  Motor control.  Sound and lights.  Function button mapping.  Documentation and Support.  The ESU S/W and Programmer vs.  QSI CV Manager and the Quantum Programmer.  Downloading files. 

I go into this knowing that the QSI Titan Magnum has two totally independent speaker outputs which can be adjusted to balance the sound between an engine speaker a valuable feature.  The Loksound Select L has 2 positions to connect speakers to but on just one channel.  Wondering if I can find a way to balance them or maybe just get lucky.

 Also the Titan Magnum has screw terminals.  The Loksound Select L has solder pads on the base board with multi connectors between the decoder board which rides on top of the base board.  So, the base board can be permanently soldered in place and yet the decoder board can removed by just unplugging it for whatever reason. This is good IMO.  Bet the OEMs will like this for RMR activity.  

The new Atlas 2-rail U23Bs come with the adapter for the LokSound decoders installed, including the speaker and lights.  As they are DC only there is a plug where the decoder goes but it is a direct physical swap with the retail decoder.

Austin Bill posted:

..... I ordered two ESU Loksound Select L decoders, the ESU Programmer and the ESU decoder tester. ..... Look forward to installing the decoders in steam engines and comparing the results to my 6 amp QSI Titan Magnum Q2 and Q3 .....

Will compare:  Ease of installation and programming.  Motor control.  Sound and lights. .....

I look forward to your results, Bill.

Thanks. Matt

I have a few questions hoping someone can help...

1. Will this work on any conventional 3 rail engine???

2. what controller would be used IE. MTH DCS or Lionel Legacy???

Hi Dio,

This was a 2-rail DCC sound decoder installation, so it will only work on a DCC equipped layout, whether it is a 3-Rail DCC layout (yes, there are a few out there) or a 2-Rail DCC equipped layout.  

The actual controller that was used in the making of the video was an NCE (North Coast Engineering)  DCC controller but any DCC controller could have been used, i.e. Digitrax, MRC Prodigy.   However, MTH DCS and Lionel Legacy controllers could not be used as they are not DCC compatible control systems.  They are their own proprietary control systems.

Scott K.

Austin, TX

Austin Bill posted:

Seeing and hearing Scott's engine in person convinced me so I ordered two ESU Loksound Select L decoders, the ESU Programmer and the ESU decoder tester.  Look forward to installing the decoders in steam engines and comparing the results to my 6 amp QSI Titan Magnum Q2 and Q3 equipped steam engine installations. 

Will compare:  Ease of installation and programming.  Motor control.  Sound and lights.  Function button mapping.  Documentation and Support.  The ESU S/W and Programmer vs.  QSI CV Manager and the Quantum Programmer.  Downloading files. 

I go into this knowing that the QSI Titan Magnum has two totally independent speaker outputs which can be adjusted to balance the sound between an engine speaker a valuable feature.  The Loksound Select L has 2 positions to connect speakers to but on just one channel.  Wondering if I can find a way to balance them or maybe just get lucky.

 Also the Titan Magnum has screw terminals.  The Loksound Select L has solder pads on the base board with multi connectors between the decoder board which rides on top of the base board.  So, the base board can be permanently soldered in place and yet the decoder board can removed by just unplugging it for whatever reason. This is good IMO.  Bet the OEMs will like this for RMR activity.  

Austin Bill,

Could you please let me know when an ESU programmer is needed? Is it needed to enhance the performance / sound or to customize DCC decoders in existing DCC locomotives or is it only needed for new DCC installations? I read that high-end DCC systems like Digitrax Super Chief have more functionality compared to an entry-level Zephyr Xtra starter set but I am beginning to think that there must be something lacking from these high-end systems that required you to get the programmers.

Since you also mention QSI Manager & Quantum programmer, am I correct in assuming that even though DCC is a standard, you cannot modify default settings unless you have programmers from each decoder manufacturer. If that assumption is correct, then it would take away some of the standardization I expected from DCC. Most of my DCC capable locomotives would be MTH Proto-Sound 3.0 since they are the only choice for modern 6-axle locomotives. Would any of these programmers work if I needed to say match the speed between MTH models?

I have been running conventional DC for the last 10 years but recently bought my first DCC system from ESU.

These are just my opinion,

Thanks,

Naveen Rajan

Navreen, most settings on any DCC decoder can be modified with any DCC system. However, when I tried to adjust the chuff rate on my QSI Magnum decoder I found out that to change that particular setting I needed the QSI Programmer which I don't have. 

If all you have is MTH locomotives than none of those programmers mentioned will help you because each programmer only works with its own decoders. 

Hi Naveen,

DCC decoders can be programmed using any of the main DCC systems like my NCE DCC system.  This is accomplished by using the programming features of the DCC system to DIRECTLY change decoder attributes called Configuration Variables (CV's).  This works just fine for making small changes to simple CV's.  I use this method to make simple changes on the fly.  But, rely on the three programming methods below for installations and big changes.

 Beyond simple changes using your DCC system becomes more complex.   For example many decoders have complex CV's called Indexed CV's which are much harder to fathom and change.  So, to vastly simplify and provide a user friendly (plain old English and graphics) interface companies like ESU and QSI developed specialized proprietary programmers optimized for their brand decoders.  There is also a free public domain and very comprehensive suite of tools is available on-line called JMRI which has two tools called Decoder Pro and Panel Pro.  These can be used to program most features of many decoders.  Free.  I use it to program decoders brands other than QSI and ESU.  And it will work with QSI and ESU, too.  I can't say how well because I have the programmers. 

So, why buy the QSI Quantum Programmer and the ESU Programmer?  You must have a QSI programmer to download new sound sets and new firmware versions.  Same for ESU.  Period.  Beyond this requirement I feel the proprietary programmers just make life easier.   In my experience I cannot imagine setting up a new QSI Titan Magnum decoder without my QSI Quantum Programmer.  Others will disagree with this for sure!!  But, why not take advantage of tools that simplify?

As for NMRA standards,  they are fine as far as they go.  They standardize many basic and important DCC attributes.  But, the various manufacturers are free to add proprietary attributes layered on top of the NMRA attributes.  This is a lengthy topic and I won't attempt it here.  

Bottom line.  DCC is not all that hard to understand.  It just takes time and effort and study.  Good luck and have fun.

Bill

Thanks for the in-depth explanation Bill. I too was wondering what the benefits were for purchasing the programmers.

"Will compare:  Ease of installation and programming.  Motor control.  Sound and lights.  Function button mapping.  Documentation and Support.  The ESU S/W and Programmer vs.  QSI CV Manager and the Quantum Programmer.  Downloading files."

Please post with the results of your comparison. I also look forward to it.

Austin Bill posted:

...

 Also the Titan Magnum has screw terminals.  The Loksound Select L has solder pads on the base board with multi connectors between the decoder board which rides on top of the base board.  So, the base board can be permanently soldered in place and yet the decoder board can removed by just unplugging it for whatever reason. This is good IMO.  Bet the OEMs will like this for RMR activity.  

Grump.  Here I must disconcur.  I got out of smaller scales because I could no longer see the tiny things all over the place and now to have to deal with soldering to tiny pads is annoying.  I have yet to get the adapter to work.  If I plug the decoder into an Atlas adapter on a U23B the decoder works perfectly.  But plugged into the solder only adapter I only get shorts or nothing.  Now that I have eliminated all the shorts it's just plain nothing.   At least they could have soldered wires to those pads like they and everyone else does.  Those tiny pads are intended for soldering machines not people.

rdunniii.  Bummer.  Factory soldered wires is a good idea. Hopefully ScottK will weigh in on his  soldering technique so we can all profit from his success. 

I've been doing other things and haven't yet done my first Select 4.0 L.   I've always planned to pre-solder wires on the pads on my workbench with the decoder stabilized and using my variable heat soldering rig with the best possible tip from the many tips for this soldering station.   I'll be extra careful now that I've heard your sad story.  So, thanks and better luck next time.

Bill

RDUNNIII, yeah I agree with you. Tiny solder pads are no fun. 

I do like that Atlas made a DCC Ready locomotive where the user can literally just drop in a decoder that has sound and all the modern features. The old DCC ready boards were okay but all that dropped in was a bare bones old technology NCE Atlas O decoder. I assume all that the user has to do after plugging in the Loksound decoder is add a speaker. Do you guys have any preferences on what speaker to use? 

Bill or anyone else, have you guys tried the ESU Power Pack Maxi? I was just wondering if it was worth the added expense. 

BTW.  As we know the Loksound L Select decoder comes as two separable boards.  The bottom board with the soldering pads is the 51959 Adapter Board.  It sells for $19.95.  I'm going to order one and permanently wire it into my decoder tester board so I can just plug the upper board into it for pre-testing during installations.  Nice feature.  And maybe order an extra while I'm at it in case I screw up soldering the wires to the pads and burn up the PCB traces. 

http://www.esu.eu/en/products/...lect-loksound-l-v40/

Bill

Wow! Those soldering pads do look awfully small!!

They are easy.  Just use a 1 mm rounded tip.

I've done lots of them.

Cheers

I soldered the power connections to the pads on the top of the board and now it works great.  Apparently if doesn't matter but you need to make sure there is a connection between the pads and the traces which are on the in between layers of the board.  So if the solder doesn't flow into the very tiny holes in the pad they may not work.

Hudson J1e posted:

RDUNNIII, yeah I agree with you. Tiny solder pads are no fun. 

<..snip..>

Bill or anyone else, have you guys tried the ESU Power Pack Maxi? I was just wondering if it was worth the added expense. 

Hi Hudson J1e,

I used the smaller ESU Power Pack on this install as I stated in my original email but this new Power Pack Maxi for the larger scales looks very interesting, indeed.  It says the Power Pack Maxi has 5 Farads of capacitance .  It will be interesting to see what the price ends up being.  I have been finding that for really good reliable backup power on other O Scale sound decoder installations on dual motor drivers, I've needed to install three TCS KA2s in parallel and this still only gives about 1.8 Farads of capacitance vs. the 5 Farads on the Maxi.  I have not seen any prices yet (the ESU web site says expected delivery for the Power Pack Maxi is 2Q/2016), but even if it comes in at around $75, I can still see justification. To me, these super capacitors in itself , have created a mini revolution in model railroading by negating the need for keeping track absolutely spotless and all frogs be powered to have uninterrupted operating performance.  The downside is if you look at the prices of these Keep Alive components (even the KA2s), the manufacturers are generously marking them up.  ESU justifies some of that markup with the on board chips to stop the charging process when in programming mode or to adjust buffer times, which are foo-foo features that a programming track booster, like the DCC Specialties Power Pax and the Soundtraxx PTB will work around.  In any event these little gadgets do really improve the "quality of life" when running trains with DCC.   Hopefully in time these backup power modules will come down in price like the decoders have done but for the early adopters, it still hurts a little in the backside pocket on each installation .

Scott K.

Austin, TX 

Scott Kay posted:

Hudson J1e posted:

RDUNNIII, yeah I agree with you. Tiny solder pads are no fun. 

<..snip..>

Bill or anyone else, have you guys tried the ESU Power Pack Maxi? I was just wondering if it was worth the added expense. 

Hi Hudson J1e,

I used the smaller ESU Power Pack on this install as I stated in my original email but this new Power Pack Maxi for the larger scales looks very interesting, indeed.  It says the Power Pack Maxi has 5 Farads of capacitance .  It will be interesting to see what the price ends up being.  I have been finding that for really good reliable backup power on other O Scale sound decoder installations on dual motor drivers, I've needed to install three TCS KA2s in parallel and this still only gives about 1.8 Farads of capacitance vs. the 5 Farads on the Maxi.  I have not seen any prices yet (the ESU web site says expected delivery for the Power Pack Maxi is 2Q/2016), but even if it comes in at around $75, I can still see justification. To me, these super capacitors in itself , have created a mini revolution in model railroading by negating the need for keeping track absolutely spotless and all frogs be powered to have uninterrupted operating performance.  The downside is if you look at the prices of these Keep Alive components (even the KA2s), the manufacturers are generously marking them up.  ESU justifies some of that markup with the on board chips to stop the charging process when in programming mode or to adjust buffer times, which are foo-foo features that a programming track booster, like the DCC Specialties Power Pax and the Soundtraxx PTB will work around.  In any event these little gadgets do really improve the "quality of life" when running trains with DCC.   Hopefully in time these backup power modules will come down in price like the decoders have done but for the early adopters, it still hurts a little in the backside pocket on each installation .

Scott K.

Austin, TX 

I absolutely agree Scott. The capacitors are a game changer. To me it's worth the extra expense to get it done right the first time. I have never regretted installing as much capacitance as I could fit, but I have regretted not doing it.

Scott, I have been meaning to respond to your post. First thank you for the in depth reply. I agree with you and Johnny that these Power Pack Maxis are a game changer but in my opinion the price is kind of high. $75 is pretty much half the price of a decoder. And just how expensive are the capacitors on a board that, at least to me, doesn't seem like it took a lot of R&D to design? If one is doing say 10 locomotives that's an extra $750. And don't forget that the prices never come down on these things unlike other house hold electronics. I remember buying TA Studios TMCC upgrades when I was a 3 railer for $149 in the early '90s. Upgrades today are still at about the same price point if not a little more. Well, I guess given inflation they have remained about the same price. I will probably try one of these Power Pack Maxis when they come out and decide for myself it they are worth the extra (hopefully) $75. I certainly hope they are not more than that. Everyone has a different sized budget.

I agree 100% that keep alives are a game changer. But a little surprised that you need so much capacitance. I have added a TCS KA-2 to Atlas SW and MP15, several China drive GPs, a Yoder dual motor drive and a couple of older Pittman motored units. With 1 KA-2 I am getting about 4-5 seconds of run time with lights and sound on from the Atlas & Yoder units and 2-3 seconds on the Pittmans. That's with Digitrax DCC at 14.8V on the track, and various Loksound, TCSWOW and Tsunami decoders. I do have DCC friendly switches and powered frogs so that amount of run time seems to work great for me. No more flickering lights and "pop>restart" sounds. 

Just curious, what's the reason for needing 3 KAs in a loco?

Thanks,

Pete  

Hi Pete,

The reason for my use of three KA2 Keep Alives is due to a test that I ran.  Basically, it had to do with what it would take to not have to clean track.  I had a test loop and I started out an cleaned the track thoroughly by hand wiping with alcohol and a paper towel.  I then used the wiped finger test where no black residue was left on my finger so I knew the rail was clean.  I then ran about a 10-car train around several laps and no flickering lights and then let it set, came back and ran the train again a month later, did the wiped finger test and noticed the black residue had returned.  This was good though and actually what I wanted to see.  I also noticed that the lights started flickering a bit, especially at slow speeds.  I then installed a single Keep Alive and performance improved, no more flickering lights.  I then let it set for another month, ran the train a bit, and then noticed the flickering lights had started again.  So I added a second KA2 Keep Alive and the flickering lights went away again.  It finally took three Keep Alives to get it to the point where I no longer had flicking lights or sound hiccups while still not cleaning track on these particular Atlas Dual Drive locos.

 Now, I was nosing around the ESU Loksound and various ESU Loksound DCC retailer web sites (always a dangerous proposition) and I noticed that the Loksound XL 4.0 has a built in Power Pack  (Keep Alive) that looks like it uses the exact same capacitors as those used on their upcoming Power Pack Maxi device so I’m thinking that it might end up being a wash to go with the Loksound XL 4.0 vs. Loksound Select L decoder with a Power Pack Maxi even though in some respects the XL 4.0 is a bit of overkill for O Scale.  However… even with a street price just north of $200 for the XL 4.0 and a slightly larger size, you get more speaker handling capability with two independently balanceable channels, nice screw terminals (not the small solder pads), built-in keep alive that might be equivalent to the Power Pack Maxi (just guessing at this point), and all in a single package.  Has anyone installed a Loksound Select XL 4.0 and does it truly have a noticeable extended keep alive capability for the larger scale?

Thanks.

Scott K.

Austin, TX

I've fitted a lot of Loksound decoders over the journey and they all succumb eventually to dirty rails.

I've found the best product to deal with the problem at the source is Track Magic.

It will give you months of trouble free running - I even left a test track outside in the weather for three months after treating it with Track magic, and it still ran fine.

If you want to only clean your rails twice a year, this is the go.  Clean your wheels with it as well.

http://www.gaugemaster.com/ite...ils.asp?code=DLAC-13 

Cheers

Scott,

Good sleuthing.  Thanks.  Makes the XL price seem much better.  I finally found the words after digging around myself in the XL part of the installation manual.  

Bet it's those two large green capacitors.  Agree?  I couldn't find any reference to total capacitance.  Did you?  Here's the statement in the maual:

Hi Bill,

Yes, I agree that it is indeed those two green capacitors that are storing the current for the keep alive feature in the 4.0 XL decoder.  They looked just like the ones in the picture for the Power Pack Maxi and being these XL decoders are for even larger current consumers than O scale, e.g. G Scale, I am presuming they are hopefully at least the same size as the Maxi.  As for the capacitance, I did not see any reference to the actual capacitance in the XL decoder manual, nor did I see any reference to the amount of capacitance in the Power Pack Maxi web page, at least on the English version of the Power Pack Maxi ESU web page…  However, on the German version of the Power Pack Maxi web page, you can see a reference to 5 Farads in the German text .

 Scott K.

Austin, TX

Scott Kay posted:

Hi Pete,

The reason for my use of three KA2 Keep Alives is due to a test that I ran.  Basically, it had to do with what it would take to not have to clean track.  I had a test loop and I started out an cleaned the track thoroughly by hand wiping with alcohol and a paper towel.  I then used the wiped finger test where no black residue was left on my finger so I knew the rail was clean.  I then ran about a 10-car train around several laps and no flickering lights and then let it set, came back and ran the train again a month later, did the wiped finger test and noticed the black residue had returned.  This was good though and actually what I wanted to see.  I also noticed that the lights started flickering a bit, especially at slow speeds.  I then installed a single Keep Alive and performance improved, no more flickering lights.  I then let it set for another month, ran the train a bit, and then noticed the flickering lights had started again.  So I added a second KA2 Keep Alive and the flickering lights went away again.  It finally took three Keep Alives to get it to the point where I no longer had flicking lights or sound hiccups while still not cleaning track on these particular Atlas Dual Drive locos.

 Now, I was nosing around the ESU Loksound and various ESU Loksound DCC retailer web sites (always a dangerous proposition) and I noticed that the Loksound XL 4.0 has a built in Power Pack  (Keep Alive) that looks like it uses the exact same capacitors as those used on their upcoming Power Pack Maxi device so I’m thinking that it might end up being a wash to go with the Loksound XL 4.0 vs. Loksound Select L decoder with a Power Pack Maxi even though in some respects the XL 4.0 is a bit of overkill for O Scale.  However… even with a street price just north of $200 for the XL 4.0 and a slightly larger size, you get more speaker handling capability with two independently balanceable channels, nice screw terminals (not the small solder pads), built-in keep alive that might be equivalent to the Power Pack Maxi (just guessing at this point), and all in a single package.  Has anyone installed a Loksound Select XL 4.0 and does it truly have a noticeable extended keep alive capability for the larger scale?

Thanks.

Scott K.

Austin, TX

Thanks very much for the detailed reply Scott. Makes sense now.     That is a big challenge to never have to clean your track again!  I did similar cleaning stages with alcohol and then applied a very thin layer of graphite which I learned about on MRH and at my local club. I have not cleaned track in a year now and still no flickering lights or dropped sound. Of course there are several treatments that I'm sure work well, such as what Max suggested. 

A couple of things I've heard about Loksound that might be relevant. Max, you're way ahead of me on Loksound so please chime in if I'm talking through my hat again!       I think there's a CV to set what happens in the event of momentary power loss. You can have the motor go back to what is was doing, or stop, or something else. And you can have the sound go back to its previous state, or re-start, maybe something else. Not sure if having the motor go back to previous speed would alleviate the issue at all, compared to having it stop (if that's even a thing)?

Secondly (this is not about keep alive, but about XL 4.0), I believe the XL 4.0 does have larger keep alive built in, but didn't Max have trouble with the PWM drive frequencies not being compatible to some degree with China drives and at all with Pittman motors? Not sure if that would direct you back to the newer Select L.

Last thought I had was that your track seemed to get dirty very quickly i.e. a month later. Do you have any plastic wheelsets on your stock? The biggest single improvement in track cleanliness for me was when I switched to 100% metal wheelsets a few years ago.

Sadly I suspect that in the end, to run DCC flawlessly even with large keep alives may be a bit of a tall order without DCC friendly switches, powered frogs and clean track. If I were starting today I'd be looking hard at dead rail/battery power! 

Pete

Hi Pete

I don't use CV's, I use a Lokprogrammer.  The individual sound project defaults to that setting as a rule.

When I'm programming, I always check to make sure that it's turned on.

Cheers

"Secondly (this is not about keep alive, but about XL 4.0), I believe the XL 4.0 does have larger keep alive built in, but didn't Max have trouble with the PWM drive frequencies not being compatible to some degree with China drives and at all with Pittman motors? Not sure if that would direct you back to the newer Select L." (Pete)

With the KA for free, the two audio channels and screw terminals I'm really interested for engines with the room for the decoder.  BUT.  Can anyone provide more info on the above statement made by Pete.  I find it counter intuitive that this would be the case for several reasons.  But, stranger things have happened.  It's the Pittman motor part that concerns me.

Thanks, Bill

That's true, Pete but I was using Select L - not the XL.

Both the Atlas China and the Pittman still moan a bit with the BEMF turned on, but I keep the sound up to hide it.

Cheers

Sorry guys, didn't mean to muddy the waters. I realized I'm not 100% clear in this still. Max, I think this is the post I mis-remembered:

Hi Pete

Sorry for the confusion, the decoder was a V4 L (not XL), and for what ever reason, it didn't like the BEMF on either of the Pittman motors.  My weapon of choice is the Select L, for various reasons.  Bryan at SBS4DCC.com swapped the V4 L for a Select L and the Select only causes marginal moaning from the motor.  Easily masked by the sounds from the decoder - as was the Atlas' moaning (with a Select L).

The L series was developed by ESU during 2014 specifically for O scale, but given that there are so many Atlas and Pittman motors out there, its performance in the motor area is a bit below par.  Not to worry, I think that it will be acceptable.

So to double check, you didn't have the Pittman back EMF issue with the XL 4.0 (big one with screw terminals at large caps)? And you came to the conclusion that the new Select L with the blue PCB and plug-in loco interface board is acceptable hum/control-wise even with Pittman?

By the way, I looked into coreless motor replacements for the Pittman and found that I can get a drop-in replacement that will draw under 1A stalled and deliver twice the torque with better slow speed control. The cost will be the same or less for this and an HO Select decoder together than for one high amp Select L. Plus I'll have more room for speakers. Going to try this in an old Weaver as soon as funds permit.   

Thanks again,

Pete     

Hi Pete

No, not an XL.  I've used one of them in a G scale loco, but only  V.4  L and Select L  in O scale.

What I have now is an Atlas SDP 35 and the rebuilt Weaver GP 38-2 with the adjustable tower.  The Weaver runs very smoothly on notch one (you can barely see it moving), but the Atlas is lumpy until about notch 4.  Both have Select L decoders.  The hum is bearable.

Interesting about the coreless motors.  I read somewhere that they don't like PWM power.  Maybe I imagined it. 

Cheers

Thanks Max, I've got it now, finally! Re coreless, you're right, we discussed that in your GP38 thread also. Coreless motors have been in European O scale for a long time. They don't like low frequency PWM such as found on early Digitrax and NCE decoders, and tend to overheat or melt. One reason Zimo, Lenz and ESU decoders have much higher frequency PWM is to optimally control coreless motors. Which happens to be a factor in why they don't work a well with "old school" Pittmans and to a lesser extent, somewhat newer Atlas can motors. Sigh.  

Like you said it's a sport not a hobby...     

Pete

Well, now I don't know what to do between staying with QSI Titan Magnums or trying  L Selects or XL's in my O scale steam engines which probably have "recently manufactured Pittman's".  Guess this means I'm confused on a higher level which is a form of progress .

Please clarify what is meant by an "old Pittman's." 

ScottK.  While your Atlas O MP 15 has a horizontal drive, not china drives, best I remember it had no low speed hum.  Correct?   Judging from the pictures looks like a pretty standard can motor.  Nothing special.  Correct?

I have some engines with QSI Titan Magnums which initially had low speed hum - especially at startup.  But, almost all of it was worked out to the point that it was all but gone by carefully setting decoder properties using CV Manager.    Are you guys saying that the Loksound series does not offer this type of motor tuning or what?

Good stuff.  Thanks, Bill

HI Bill,

I did not notice any hum on my Atlas O MP15 and I have run the loco with the sound muted and still no noticeable hum.  These Atlas horizontal drives, like the one on this MP15,  use basically the same motor as those used on the dual vertical drive configuration.  Also, as another data point, here is a video from Alex K. from DCC Train on Rick Trinkle’s Overland SD70Ace (Pittman Motor equipped) Loksound XL 4.0 installation and a short test run and I don’t hear any hum, Just the sweet sound of that EMD 710 prime mover .  The actual demo starts at the 7:35 mark.

 https://youtu.be/xgBjQ3AmhGc

 Scott K.

Austin, TX

Austin Bill posted:

Please clarify what is meant by an "old Pittman's." 

 

Bill, the Pittman motors used in O scale models come in 2 broad types. "Seriously old" ones with regular magnets and "fairly old" ones with Alnico magnets. There are plain bearing and ball bearing versions of both as I understand it. These motors have not been made by Pittman for something like 10-15 years as I recall. This based on a post I read by a proper O scale drive expert (maybe Jay Criswell or Rod Miller?). It went roughly like this: A builder contacted Pittman a few years ago for more of these motors for a run of engines and the Pittman guy wondered why someone would want to order something they hadn't made in many years. 

Anyone please chime in if you have actual facts to correct my shaky anecdotage...     

I think these motors were top of their class in their day, but modern can motors and especially coreless motors are way more efficient - a lot more torque for less Amps in a lighter package. 

Some of this was covered in Max's excellent Weaver GP38 thread:

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/t...first-attempt?page=1

Pete

Pete and Max, 

I just "slogged" thru the lengthy GP-38 post.  A monument to tenacity with a very good outcome and an interesting learning experience.  All I can say is that hum in the earlier video sounds the same as a DC non-decoder engine sitting on a DCC layout as Max more said.   Sounded like no decoder or a faulty decoder.   Or maybe just bad luck with that particular combination of motor and decoder?

The GP-38  performance in that last video was awesome.  Certainly equal to anything I currently have.  ScottK ran his L Select  equipped engine on my layout and it too had excellent  sound and motor control .  I can only conclude that we "pay's our money and take's our chances" with each project regardless of what brand decoder we select to combine with what ever brand motor is in the engine -- for starters.  Then take it from there. 

Thanks, Bill

Austin Bill posted:

Pete and Max, 

I just "slogged" thru the lengthy GP-38 post. 

You might need a little lie down after that!   

I learned a lot from that thread. I also thought that buzzing was the "DC loco on DCC" buzz at first, but the I realized the buzz gets higher frequency as the throttle increases, whereas with a DC loco on DCC it gets lower at throttle steps increase. So I did come to think it was the variable frequency PWM that modern "Euro" decoders use to optimize stating and slow running. They start off around 40kHz which is great for coreless motors (and way above human hearing of course) and seem to drop down to try and compensate to control higher current drawing, lower efficiency can motors at start off and low speed. Pittmans with their 8-10A stall current draw seem to be the least good fit with such a motor control approach. Mind you, this is total conjecture on my part as what I know about PWM, VFD, motor power factors etc. can be written on the head of a pin! 

Next for me is to try a coreless Pittman replacement with an HO Loksound decoder and I will report back as soon as I get it done. I will use the Finescale 360 tower kit as well on that one.

FWIW currently I am running an HO Loksound Select in a Yoder 44-tonner, and an HO TCSWOW Diesel in an Atlas SW9 and both are excellent at start off and slow running after a simple 1 minute calibration step as described in the manuals. I do also have 2 Atlas China drive GP35s with HO Tsunamis that run OK. No issues under load, but it took a week of evenings messing about with multiple CVs based on 3 different recommendations found online to try and get the slow running nice. And it has never got close to what the TCS and ESUs can do out of the box.

Onwards and upwards...  

Pete    

Thanks again, all. 

Factoring in all I've learned from seeing Scott's engine in person on my layout and then following all of the informative responses to his topic, I've decided to go with the Loksound XL 4.0 for a steam project.   Just ordered one from Tony's.  The XL will easily fit in the project tender.  The selling features for me are:  Screw terminals instead of those tiny solder pads, on-board Keep Alive (by any other name) making the price seem more reasonable,  two separate audio channels that can be balanced for one speaker in the boiler and one (larger) speaker in the tender to enhance bass response (like with my QSI 6 amp Titan Magnum Q2 and Q3 decoders in steam engines).  

I also have two Titan Magnums with the latest Q3 firmware yet to be installed.  They are awesome too.  And I have been using the QSI Quantum Programmer for years and look forward to learning and using my new ESU Loksound Programmer.  Best of both worlds?  No wonder, I haven't gotten around to starting scenery on the layout.  Oh well, it runs well under NCE DCC control.

Thanks, Bill

I think that's a good decision Bill. Looking forward to the video! I hear that the Q3 firmware is a huge improvement for QSI so I look forward to hearing about that as well.  

Pete

rdunniii posted:

The new Atlas 2-rail U23Bs come with the adapter for the LokSound decoders installed, including the speaker and lights.  As they are DC only there is a plug where the decoder goes but it is a direct physical swap with the retail decoder.

If an adapter for a U23B doesn't work, can you replace it with the loksound select L adapter? Can the loksound select L adapter manage lights to the U23B by itself?