Attention cylindrical hopper enthusiasts.

NotInWI posted earlier:

 

 "I have a friend who has a high rail S gauge layout with gargraves track and flyer switches and he will have to swap the wheels out on his CH for flyer wheels.  The hopper does nothing but derail. "

 

That sure sounds like using these cars with either Gilbert or Gargraves products is a headache in the making unless you convert the wheelsets to high-rail if possible.

Mark

Does anyone know if Lionel accept that they have issues with the wheel sets and have they offered any solutions to overcome these problems?

Hopefully, someone at the Circle L Ranch is monitoring discussions like these and come up with a solution.  But at this point, they would have been better off just offering the cylindrical hopper with Flyer flanges.

 

But, as I mentioned earlier, AM, the former SHS and SSA have solutions to this kind of problem that requires little or no effort on the purchaser to make the equipment suit his needs.  All of their cars ride at the correct height also, be they hirail or scale.

 

For some reason, Lionel feels the need to reinvent the S wheel.  For what reason, I don't know.  But it seems to me that the cylindrical hopper's trucks would cost more in material and labor than anything offered by AM, SHS(now MTH) and SSA. 

 

They have a reasonable solution for the U33's, SD70's and ES44's, even though they don't make it easy to secure replacement wheels.

 

Maybe we'll see some improvements in the next catalog, but seeing that I am rather fond of breathing...

 

Rusty

I, for one, have been talking to Lionel.  I tried to explain to Lionel that there was going to be a compatability problem as early as March 2013. Lionel never responded to my concerns.

 

I have been in S scale long enough to remember refitting American Models trucks with modified American Flyer wheels in order to get the cars (which originally were only available with scale wheels) to negotiate American Flyer switches.  It wasn't pretty, but it is doable. Lionel has promised to make replacement wheels for those of us who operate with gargraves or flyer switches, although it may be something of a pain to get them.   

 

The big hang up will be the switches.  As Ed L has pointed out, it is highly unlikely that the new Lionel FastTrack switches will accomodate both scale flanged wheels and traditional American Flyer wheels.  No other turnouts except Tom's have done so to my knowledge.  

 

My main fear is that poor sales because of compatability issues will make Lionel less likely to produce scale detailed products.  

I tend to agree with LittleTommy:

 

This is going to be a sour experience in Lionel's mouth... so I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see future releases come with Flyer flanges and us scale guys will have to scrounge to "make it work" for scale application.  Nothing new there!

I don't think Lionel will abandon scale detailed products, as relying on Gilbert-based or S clones of "traditional O" alone would not a be recipe for success.  (My very humble opinion...)  After all, they still have MTH to compete with (even though they are also slow out of the box.)

 

It should be a relatively easy matter to just mount Flyer wheelsets on future cars and either make adjustments (by increasing the length of the axle spacer) to the scale wheels for separate sale or leave us scalers to our own devices.

 

However, I'm beginning to have my doubts that Lionel does anything easy.

 

Rusty

Here is a prototype (real life) paint scheme that Lionel could use.  The only real difference that I can see is the sheet metal between the hopper bays.  Those would be easy to add to the Lionel model.  UP may have put those on after they were delivered since I seem to recall seeing pictures of those hoppers without them.  More research is needed but even if Lionel put this paint scheme on their car, it would be close enough for me in the short term.  The heritage cars will be collectors items and I'll help make them rare since I would strip them and repaint them for one of these cars.

 

Greg

Sparks NV 07/03/2004

We'll, took the plunge this am and ordered an Alberta hopper.  Got to check them out, besides, I have an extra pair of 808s that are laying around.
I can tell you that Lionel made a beautiful O gauge Rio Grande 4 bay cylindrical hopper cuz I had one.
Hope these are the same workmanship.

John....You will like the body casting very much.  It is well detailed and very nice.  The trucks are pretty good also except for the problems already discussed here.  Swap the trucks or spread the wheels and lower the body and you will be fine.  Have fun...Ed L.

Gents....Here is some info gleaned from another forum.

 

Mebbe they ought to just sell the car less trucks and couplers...

 

Rusty

The part I still do not understand is that someone earlier spoke with Will Holt and they reported these cars ran well on AF track.  Was that original report in error?  Seems like inconsistency is the only constant.  (slight joke, heh heh)  Ed L.

Wonder if the fact that the scale SD70 Ace were extremely difficult to find while I'm AF units still sit on store shelves?
Just pure speculation...

Darn spellcheck!

John.......Regarding SD70 scale-wheeled diesels, the best thing to do is to buy an AF unit and the scale conversion wheels.  Swap the wheels and you are off and running.  Not much of a problem if you can determine the correct L/AF part number for the scale wheels.  Talk to Lionel and they will "help" you.  Ed L.

Here's the part number for SD70 scale wheels:

 

6409879625

SCALE WHEELSETS / 40" / 6 PC   SET / A/F SD70Ace

$29.95

 

Ya gotta call Lionel to order.  They're not availble through the regular web order process.

 

Rusty

Thanks guys but I have two SD70s already.   One more and I'll be sleeping amongst the frozen dog poop in the back yard.
Ed, please, what AM part number will I need to switch trucks on the hopper?  Thanks!
One more thing...did Flyonel make these things in multiple numbers per road name?

John......

 

Here is the message (received from someone else) that I posted on Feb. 27th:

 

I just put AM RB trucks and scale couplers right where they should be, without spacer, and the coupler height comes out right on

 

I would suggest you go to the AM web site and look up their roller bearing trucks.  Not hard to do.  If lazy, click here:  http://www.americanmodels.com/misc/wheels.html

 

I cannot state these are the prototypically correct trucks to use.  I am merely passing along some information regarding what someone else did.  Of all the solutions so far, this appears to be the easiest although the rolling end caps are sacrificed.

 

Regarding multiple numbers for the same car, my understanding is that the Lionel/AF catalog shows what is being offered.  If it shows multiple numbers, then just order what you want.  If not, then plan to scrape off a digit or two and apply a decal.  Not hard.  Just an everyday task for model railroaders. 

 

Good luck...Ed L.

Thanks, I'll have a look and see.
Yes I am lazy.
I need 3 pair of trucks but I hate to call Ron with a little order like that.
No real hurry.

Gents.......I am wondering if we are approaching the wheel situation here backwards.  Instead of reporting what does not work, perhaps we should ask for success stories about which track systems the cylindrical hopper does work well on.  This would include switches on both the straight and curved route as well as backing up a long train through both routes, sharp curves, broad curves, up grades, down grades, etc.  Hopefully, there is some track out there upon which this car will track well.  Can anyone tell us of a good experience?   Hoping.....Ed L.

Hopefully after Friday, I can report on scale codes 83 and 100 track.

John...

 

Rail height is irrelevant.  It is the gauge and the turnout construction that will affect operation.  The rails could be ten feet tall and, if the switches are gauged correctly, the cars will work fine.  It would be interesting to know what switches these cars were intended to run on.  The design engineers must have had something in mind.  Maybe the Marketing folks never specified anything? 

 

Good luck...Ed L.

If results with the ES44AC and third-generation of SD70ACe locomotives could be included in the running, that would be great. I suspect that the revisions to the ES44AC trucks will allow them to cross American Models switches without losing electrical contact, but I would like to know for sure. I would also like to know if that same modification was made to the latest SD70ACe locomotives.

 

I know Lionel would like customers to order products from their catalogues long before the products hit the stores, but the difficulties in actually getting the products to work would make anyone reluctant to take a chance.  

Perhaps someone should ask Will Holt exactly what he meant by "ran well." And what the observation of that operating session consisted of.

Well Ed, IF my BN hopper EVER shows up, I'll let everyone know how it operates (or doesn't) unmodified on code 100 Old Pullman and Shinohora turnouts.

 

Rusty

Well here's my input on your request.

Today I received my first American Flyer CH:

 

 

I have two types of molded roadbed track on my layout...Lionel/AF Fastrack and 

S-Helper-Service S-Trax.

My observations:

1. My point-to-point SHS track has two passing sidings. I ran the hopper forward and reverse when placed between an SHS SW9 and an SHS caboose. The car negotiated all straights and 19" radius curves easily. The car ran smoothly through all SHS turnouts when being either pulled or pushed through the straight or divergent route. I increased the speed as high as I safely could on this 25 foot track and the car ran smoothly through all possibilities. In short, there were No derailments!

2.My Lionel Fastrack loop is over 90' long and shaped like a horseshoe. I placed the car at the front of a 20 car train behind an American Models Pacific engine. All the curves are 20" radius. The car ran and pulled smoothly without problem.

I placed the car mid-way and at the end of the same 20 car train and it performed perfectly. No derailments!

3. I did notice that while the wheelsets track well on both types of track there is a noticeable side-to side "slide" of the wheelsets. What I mean is that the distance from the rail side of one wheel flange to the rail side of the other wheel flange on the same axle is about 1/16" to 3/32" narrower than the distance between the rails themselves. If you push one flange tight to a rail the other wheel will stay on the opposite rail but not by much. I don't know if my example is an oddity or not as all the axles were the same. Perhaps this "narrowness" has something to do with traveling through curves. In any event Lionel has designed them to operate on their own track. I'm NOT going to attempt an adjustment. If it ain't broke.....

4. The high-rail couplers mate perfectly with other Lionel/AF cars but are noticeably "higher" than couplers on SHS, American Models, PRS and some original Gilbert.

If you use the high-rail coupler and want to lower it it looks like an easy fix. Two small screws hold the coupler arm to the truck. I would add a tiny washer or two behind the arm to "lower" it if needed. Mis-mated couplers can come unjoined on uneven track but if you have that scenario these cars probably wouldn't track too well on it anyway.

As no one to my knowledge has an example of an AF Fastrack switch we will have to wait and see if these cars like them as well as the SHS switches.

5. If I could easily swap these wheelsets for High-rail wheelsets I would but I'm not sure if you can do that with these roller cap rotating trucks.

6. The entire truck could be easily be swapped out for another brand of truck by removing one screw. I tightened the truck screws on my example slightly as there seemed to be a little too much "wobble" of the car body on the trucks. A very slight adjustment made a nice difference.

I hope this has helped out a little.

All in all the cars will run fine on AF or SHS track and SHS turnouts.

Mark

The sheet metal is there on the Lionel model of the ACF Center Flow Cylindrical Hopper. The big difference is the height of the trucks and the typical viewing angle.

 

 

Andrew

Hi Andrew,

I see in Marks picture the sheet metal and high water look of the Lionel car.  My UP model will take less work than I thought.  As for trucks, AM roller bearings will be fine for me since it looks like it will lower the car. To me the bolster on Lionel’s truck looks like it is wrong, an adaptation of their O gauge truck with the raised truck bolster and no bolsters on their cars.  Mark, thanks for that view of your new Saskatchewan hopper.

 

Greg

You are welcome Greg. I'm too lazy to take more pictures of my newest two CYL. Hoppers from Lionel so here's some stock photos:

These two cars run just as smoothly as the Saskatchewan car.

I joined all three in a 20 car mixed train on AF Fastrack and had no problems at all.

There was one minor production flaw in the construction of the Canada car...two of the roof hatches were lying loose in the box inner protective case. Not really a big problem but annoying. One of the movable hatches had come disconnected from it's base and another hatch/base assembly had come unglued from the car body.

Both problems were fixed in a matter of minutes. I guess inattention to detail is a world-wide phenomenon.

I am expecting delivery of this car shortly:

as described in an earlier post be aware that this car is painted like this on one side only. The other side is plain grey in color with a large red CN logo just like the prototype had.

Mark

I am so surprised and pleased that Lionel chose to adhere to the prototype and do one side plain as per prototype. This means the artwork is set up so we could see plain grey CN hoppers in the future. Multi-pack anyone?

I only ordered the prototypical roadnames for the covered hopper. My LHS called and they are in. I can hardly wait for Friday night and bring them home.

The truck bolsters must have been made so the hoppers sit high, in order to maneuver around small radius curved tracks, thus avoiding scraping the hopper bays and hitting the stirrup step when the trucks turn severely.

 

Andrew 

Sounds like having a scale bolster in the box or available for sale separately would solve the car height issue.  That and some NMRA-scale wheels and the problems go away.  Ed L.

I have my Alberta car.  It definitely wears high water pants which is unnacceptable.  The bolster wouldn't be easy to trim or replace from what I see.  The big wheeled trucks are toylike IMHO.  The top running boards, etc., could have been made of thin metal instead of heavier plastic.
I didn't get a chance to get a wheel gauge on the wheels but I will tonite.
All in all, don't know if I would have another or not.  Flyonel did not put the same effort quality wise as their O scale cylindrical hopper, which is stunning.
Sorry to rain on your parade.

Parade rained on. Bottom lip quivering. I wanted stunning.

Having owned their O scale cylindrical hopper, I felt this car to be a letdown. 
But, KD couplers, AM trucks and some weathering and heck, mixes in the train ok.

It's a nice thought, but I doubt we'll see it from the old Circle L Ranch.  Us folks of the scale persuasion will probably be left to our own solutions.

 

After this fiasco, I would expect future scale-detailed cars will come with Flyer wheels from this point on.

 

Pity, Lionel got off to such a good start with the SD70's.

 

Rusty

Quite some time ago, I wondered how many of us actually communicated with Lionel about the AF cylindrical hopper.  Nobody raised their hand.  This inaction might be interpreted as unrestrained happiness out there in L/AF land.  Ed L.

 

I have, but primarily from a Gilbert operating compatibility perspective. They know that all is not well.

 

Bob

Good Day,