Attention cylindrical hopper enthusiasts.

Lots of good info:

http://railroadcarhistory.com/

 

...and the Model Train Magazine Database:

http://trc.trains.com/Train%20Magazine%20Index.aspx?view=SearchResults&advanced=true

 

...Trainlife Magazines:

http://www.trainlife.com/magazines

>> I've heard Lionel's cars are from an American prototype, while these were Canadian, close enough I'd say. I do have the prototype roadnames on order, along with the colorful Canadian schemes.

 

It should be noted that the L/AF cylindrical hopper has three discharge chutes on the bottom, but the various Canadian paint schemes were applied to cars that were longer and had four discharge chutes.  Good paint scheme, but on the wrong car.  Or a great car with an incorrect paint scheme.  Probably makes no difference to most folks, but wanted to point it out in case it is important to someone.  Ed L.

I just talked with Doug Peck of Port Lines Hobbies and he says people who bought the hoppers are unhappy because they won't run on Gilbert AF track.  Yes, they didn't read in the catalog description that they have scale wheels.  Has anyone tried to insert Gilbert wheels in the trucks?

 

The 2013 catalog does show replacement high flange wheels on page 23.  Could these be wheels to convert to high rail?

 

Thanks  

Now that's a switch! Isn't it usually the other way around?

 

Mark in Oregon

I called Doug to buy parts and we discussed how the new Flyonel was going over.  I am writing the review of the new ES44AC for the S Gaugian magazine.  That's how the subject came up.

I've heard Lionel's cars are from an American prototype, while these were Canadian

 

Lionel and Atlas make models of the early 60s vintage American Car & Foundry cylindrical hoppers in O.  MTH makes O scale models of the newer 4 bay Canadian built cars.  It would be nice to see MTH introduce a 1/64th scale model of the Canadian hoppers.

 

For more info on the prototype you might enjoy reading the O Scale Freight Car Guide to 100 ton Covered Hoppers.

 

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/t...-ton-covered-hoppers

 

 

 

Unfortunately, problems using scale flanged wheel sets on Gilbert track in a Gilbert operating environment are not unexpected. Early in 1946, Gilbert briefly fitted their new S gauge rolling stock with near scale flanges. This practice was discontinued very quickly in favor of using the large flanges we all know because the trains had chronic derailment problems. Lionel personel were informed of this possibility about 9 months ago.

 

The election to fit wheels with scale flanges on rolling stock also fitted with traditional Gilbert-style knuckle couplers is a strange one. It would be preferable to fit the new cylindrical hoppers with wheels with hi-rail flanges and offer the extra cost option of obtaining trucks fitted with scale flanges, a la S-Helper/MTH. It is my understanding is that the whole truck needs to be swapped to go hi-rail because of the simulated roller bearings modeled on the new non-traditional rolling stock, but my information may not be up to date

 

By the way, serious Gilbert collectors keep an eagle eye for early 1946 Gilbert rolling stock, because finding examples fitted with wheels with scale flanges is very unusual.

 

Bob

>>  he says people who bought the hoppers are unhappy because they won't run on Gilbert AF track.  

 

A couple of months ago, someone reported speaking with Will Holt at a train meet where the L/AF cylindrical hopper was tested on AF track and reported to run well.  Is ACG track dimensionally different from L/AF track?  I thought the differences were only cosmetic appearance factors.  Call me dumb, but shouldn't both types of track be compatible with all cars made by ACG or L/AF?  Was Will Holt mistaken?  Are Doug Peck's customer in error?

 

It is a real surprise to hear this because the cars will not operate on NMRA-scale track unless you modify them.  A wheel puller is needed to spread the wheels and an NASG gauge is also needed to measure them. 

 

It would appear, from the statements made here, that this car will not reliably operate on either of the most common forms of track in S gauge.  I find this a most amazing occurance.  Is it really true? 

 

Trying to be hopeful.......Ed L.

If Lionel have goofed for whatever reason and built scale trucks only because they were advised by some people that was what the market wants, then they have suddenly missed out on the 85% market for sales.

 

But I believe there is a silver lining here after all for possibly everyone. Now they are aware of the problem it sounds like they either have to come up with a new wheelset or at worst a new truck for Hi-rail/Flyer. So in reality the future holds well for everyone as they will now have the ability to sell to both the 85% and the 15% market without the scale people having to scratch around for a replacement truck elsewhere

Something forum members might want to model:  Canadian National is running two SD70's on a 40 mile short run for test purposes powered by Natural Gas.  They have a huge cylindrical tanker between two locomotives.  I saw the article many months ago and can not find it now.

Besides the multi-color Canadian National car, which others are based on actual prototypes?

 

Mike

Ask the good folks at Lionel or use the links in the second post in this thread to get started. 

 

...or try an internet search on the road name, car number and car type...

 

The red "CANADA" , Green "SASAKATCHEWAN" and blue "ALBERTA" are all prototypical paint schemes. Al

As are the Burlington Northern, Southern Pacific(not sure about the yellow lettering, though) and gray Pennsylvania (not the PRR/NS heritage fantasy car.)

 

Rusty

Al and Rusty,

Thanks for the answers.  That was really helpful.  Good to know since I have the Canadian versions on order.  I'll have to consider some of the ones Rusty mentioned.

 

Old Goat,

Thanks for the links.  I did contact Lionel and asked if they could tell me which ones were based on prototypes and they replied asking me to give them the specific product numbers.  I haven't gotten around to compiling the list yet and responding.

 

Mike A.

The red "CANADA" , Green "SASAKATCHEWAN" and blue "ALBERTA" are all prototypical paint schemes. Al

 

Well, sort of.  They are certainly real world paint schemes.  But they are applied to more modern Canadian built 4 bay cars, not 1960s vintage American Car & Foundry built hoppers.

 

 

 

 

 

As are the Burlington Northern, Southern Pacific(not sure about the yellow lettering, though) and gray Pennsylvania (not the PRR/NS heritage fantasy car.)

 

Rusty

 

 

The silver BN model is bases on a GN six bay aluminum car.  Yellow lettering is at least correct for the Cotton Belt.

 

Atlas has made a bunch of 3 and 6 bay ACF cars.  I think any of the paint schemes would be welcome additions to S scale.

 

http://www.atlaso.com/o3bayhoppers.htm

 

http://www.atlaso.com/o3bayhoppers1.htm

 

http://www.atlaso.com/o3bayhoppers2.htm

 

http://www.atlaso.com/o3bayhoppers3.htm

 

 

 

 

 

 

If ultimate authenticity is your goal, you should be looking at these five areas for going the extra mile:

 

1.  Strip the incorrect paint from the 3-bay L/AF cylindrical hopper and replace it.

2.  Replace the 33" wheels with 36" wheels.

3.  Lower the height of the body by about 3/16" or slightly more.

4.  Regauge the wheels if you are an NMRA-scale modeler.  No need for #4 if you are a Lionel-scale modeler.

5.  Double check the coupler height.  Larger wheels will change the height.

 

Trying to be helpful -- not critical.  Facts is facts.  No need to get out the shotguns.

 

Cheers....Ed L.

Good Day,

 

Here are a few Cylindrical Hoppers I'd like to see produced.

 

Regards,

Frank

 

 

Does anyone know for a fact if these new "scale" wheels will operate thru American Models switches without the switch being modified?

The Lionel model of the ACF Center Flow 3-Bay Cylindrical Covered Hoppers were based on hoppers built by American Car & Foundry from 1961-1965.

 

The Canadian 100-Ton Cylindrical Hoppers were built by Marine Industries, Hawker-Siddely, and National Steel Car from about 1976-1990.

 

If the people at Lionel were not trying to squeeze everything out of the ACF Covered Hopper model they would have made one of the Canadian covered hoppers.

 

Andrew

After a two year wait (for some of these) Charles Ro shipped my 5 CHs.  The paint and detail is good.  I am not that knowledgeable about what the prototypes really look like what would be an appropriate paint scheme.  I just like what looks good!  I am curious how these wheels will work out in a high rail environment.  I have a friend who has a high rail S gauge layout with gargraves track and flyer switches and he will have to swap the wheels out on his CH for flyer wheels.  The hopper does nothing but derail.  The pictures are just with an Iphone but they should give an idea of what they look like...

 

 

A friend recently wrote to me regarding how he made these cylindrical hoppers runnable on NMRA-scale track with the correct coupler height.  A very easy fix from the looks of things.  Here is his message:

 

Lionel has done a strange thing with this car.  Scale-profile wheels, but way off-gauge,  in a tinplate-type truck arrangement (but very scale-looking with end-caps visibly turning) with talgo AF coupler, and car too high above the rails.

 

But even with only 3 bays, they are nice cars and nicely decorated.

 

I just put AM RB trucks and scale couplers right where they should be, without spacer, and the coupler height comes out right on

 

Here is the real ALBERTA car.  Compare to L/AF if curious.  Ed L.

I'd like to see Lionel offer the 4-Bay Cylindrical Hoppers next!

 

Regards,

Frank

Having been involved with this forum for about 18 months now, I do not recall seeing one single message from Lionel/AF asking for our new product desires.  Am I missing something?  Do they read what we write? 

 

How many of us asked for the new 57' mechanical reefer about to be announced?  Yet it is almost official whether we asked for it or not.  Personally, I think it is a good choice, but I do not remember any huge outpouring of requests for this particular car.  I do hope it comes with the sound features of the refrigeration equipment.

 

Wondering.......Ed L.

Ed, a reefer with sound would be awesome.
In a previous post, you mentioned the trucks being out of gauge for the scaler, and an easy replacement was an AM roller bearing truck.  Do these have rotating end caps?  Thanks!

>> you mentioned the trucks being out of gauge for the scaler, and an easy replacement was an AM roller bearing truck.  Do these have rotating end caps? 

 

Hi John...

 

The AM trucks, to the best of my knowledge, do not have rotating end caps.  If you buy an NWSL wheel puller and an NASG gage, you can use the existing L/AF trucks on your NMRA-scale layout after pulling the wheels farther apart.  It appears that will work from earlier posts.  So it is not hard to retain the rotating end caps if you want.

 

Also, SMMW makes 100 ton trucks with rotating end caps that might work equally well as the AM trucks.  I do not know of anyone who has done this yet, but it should theoretically be doable.

 

Also to clarify one point:  The L/AF "scale" wheels will not operate properly on NMRA-scale track as defined by the NMRA standards.  The L/AF "scale" wheels will (apparently) operate on Lionel-scale track which is different from NMRA-scale track. 

 

When discussing scale on this forum, it should be remembered that there are two versions of "scale" in S.  The NMRA version and the Lionel/AF version.  Most confusing to be sure.  It would be nice if Lionel were consistent with the rest of the model railroading hobby.  I see nothing to be gained by being out of step with everyone else.

 

Have fun...Ed L.

If I understand it correctly, Lionel’s cylindrical hoppers with scale wheels may appeal to the S scale crowd who strive for the most prototypical realism. These hobbyists care about details, and these cars are:

• fairly correct—the profile for the wheels (the least visible aspect)
• wrong—the alignment of the wheels, which have to be adjusted to meet NASG standards to which their other wheel sets probably correspond
• wrong—lobster-claw couplers
• wrong—number of bays for the prototypical liveries
• half wrong—half of the liveries are glossy “fantasy” designs (but at least the prototypical versions do not appear to have the showroom gloss)
• wrong—wheel size (33-inch instead of 36-inch)
• wrong—body height

 

On the other hand, high-rail enthusiasts are typically not as picky about such details. For them, these very attractive cars simply don’t work. Anecdotal reports suggest they derail if high-railers use the common American Flyer Gilbert or Gargraves track and switches. I’m having difficulty understanding for whom Lionel intended these cars.

Welcome to the club.  I'm not sure Lionel knows either.  I don't know if they use a dart board, crystal ball, gather around a cauldron to decide what to do or just take their information from certain sources.

 

One thing is certain: American Models, the former S Helper Service and S Scale America have figured out how to deal with the Flyer/Hirail and Scale markets with simple and elegant solutions, whereas Lionel seems to want to march to their own drumbeat.

 

Personally, as primarily an S Scaler, I'm more than willing to accept "close enough" in most cases.  If I didn't, I would have very little S Scale.

 

If a car is accurate for what it's supposed to represent, so much the better, but I don't really care if the car is supposed to have 33" or 36" wheels, as long as it looks good, tracks well and the couplers come out to the right height. 

 

As far as Ed's question about Lionel asking us for input, I will say this:  Input for the DCC compatibility was solicited on this board by Lionel.  I like to think it was a successful outcome.

 

However, since the management change, the folks that used to communicate publicly here have gone silent.  I suspect there was an edict from on high.

 

The one thing I expect to happen is that pretty much anything new in the Flyer line will be based on products already existing in the "Standard O" product line.  There's actually a pretty good variety there.

 

Rusty

 

Be careful what you order when looking at these hoppers.

I was going to order an AF 6-48639 from Charles Ro which is shown as:

But...when I was checking for competitive pricing on the net I saw this photo from an on-line auction for the same AF 6-48639:

The second photo is an actual boxed example so what's with Lionel changing the car so drastically from the catalog. It was shown only in the 2012 catalog.

The car's road numbers match so I guess Lionel just changed graphics mid stream in production?

The 2013 catalog showed only the NS Heritage fantasy hoppers and no others.

The Canada, Alberta and Saskatchewan cars are stunning but I can find no catalog that shows them. How would you know they exist?

Is anybody else as confused as I am?

Mark

Both pictures of AF 6-48639 are correct. The rainbow colored graphic (shown in virtually all advertising pictures) is painted on only one side of this car, while the other side is plain shade of gray. 

>> The Canada, Alberta and Saskatchewan cars are stunning but I can find no catalog that shows them. How would you know they exist?

 

Just a guess, but perhaps an earlier catalog. Maybe 2012?  One other technique for learning about new products is to rely on a really good S dealer.  Port Lines Hobbies puts out a newsletter periodically which keeps folks up to date on new S products from a wide variety of sources.  Hoquat Hobbies is another good dealer although I am not sure if he sells Lionel products.  Des Plaines Hobbies is another dealer that stocks S.

 

Is anybody else as confused as I am?

Mark

 

Becoming familiar with the Lionel environment is a bit of a challenge to all of us.  I think we are slowly beginning to figure it all out.  I cannot say it is a bad environment, but it is different from everything else in S.   To minimize frustration, it is probably best to adapt our thinking to "the Lionel way" and accept it for what it is. 

 

With luck, there are enough folks on this forum to keep us all informed and to help solve those picky little problems when they arise. 

 

Philosophically speaking, of course.....Ed L.

Thanks Ed for the reply. I checked the 2012 catalog and it does show the Saskatchewan car. Guess I missed it the first go-around. The Canada and Alberta cars are not in either the 2012 or 2013 catalogs.

The response from hmb forum member about the two-sided paint scheme on the 6-48639 was a real eye-opener for me. I had a long discussion with a salesperson from Charles Ro on the phone and he verified the two differing sides on the car. I wonder if the prototype car had graphics like that?

I have ordered several of these hoppers now and feel pretty confident they will run smoothly on my Lionel American Flyer Fastrack loop as all American Models and S-Helper-Service so-called "scale" wheeled cars run just fine on that loop of track.

As was discussed in other threads I think Lionel's version of "scale" for the AF line applies to the cars' appearance to some extent (smaller wheel flange) but also to their ability to  run on their own Fastrack which differs vastly from the old Gilbert tubular track. Which means they will also run on the old SHS S-Trax and the new (soon) MTH S-Trax since the rails are virtually identical to AF Fastrack. I still haven't heard from anyone about these cars negotiating American Models track and switches but I have none of that anyway.

I'm really a high-rail kinda guy and am attracted to the colorful cars being offered by Lionel. Pizza-cutter wheel flanges or "scale" flanges make no difference to me as long as they run smoothly. "Lobster-Claw" couplers are fine by me also.

If I can put together a Kadee-couplered train I'll run it also.

Hey...if you're having fun that's all that matters!

Mark

Yes, it did.

 

Rusty

Well if I wasn't so lazy I would have looked it up...sure enough here's both sides:

Mark

>>   I still haven't heard from anyone about these cars negotiating American Models track and switches

My suspicion is that there are not very many folks using AM track.  No facts, mind you, just a suspicion.

 

>>  I have ordered several of these hoppers now and feel pretty confident they will run smoothly on my Lionel American Flyer Fastrack loop as all American Models and S-Helper-Service so-called "scale" wheeled cars run just fine on that loop of track.

If you do not have any switches on your loop of track, then most anything will work.  Once you have switches, the problems will become apparent really fast.  You should consider making a decision on what kind of switch you want and then be sure that whatever rolling stock you purchase will be compatible with your switch choice.

I'm really a high-rail kinda guy and am attracted to the colorful cars being offered by Lionel.

I'm a scale kinda guy and am attracted to things that are unique and special.  I have enough brown box cars for two lifetimes.  Not to mention black hoppers.  Those Canadian paint scheme are certainly appealing.  The fun part is making them work on NMRA-scale track.  Sort of like a kit-bashing project.  Not a big deal, but it sure would be nice if Lionel did it for me considering the prices being charged.

 

Pizza-cutter wheel flanges or "scale" flanges make no difference to me as long as they run smoothly.

Be aware that both ACG and scale flanges will not both operate well through the same switch.  The one exception, I believe, is Tom's Turnouts which can handle both types of flanges.  If you are using something other than Tom's, you might have a disappointment waiting for you just around the bend.

 

>>  "Lobster-Claw" couplers are fine by me also.

If I can put together a Kadee-couplered train I'll run it also.

Coupler choices are many, but do not affect the ability of the trains to stay on the track.

 

>> Hey...if you're having fun that's all that matters!

If fun is the goal, then more fun is even better.

 

Cheers...Ed L.

I eliminated all switches for my current layout and run 2 concentric horseshoe shaped loops of S gauge fastrack. Smooth as silk. 

I do have a point to point track of SHS S-Trax that has two passing sidings to store cars while switching cars elsewhere on the track. When I get the new hoppers I'll be able to see if they negotiate the S-Trax switches.

If they do that might bode well for the some-day-to-be-released AF Fastrack switches. It seems logical (but never, never, never rely on that) that Lionel might design their switches to accommodate the cars made to run on them.

Mark

For me it seems that Lionel have attempted a 'one size fits all' solution and in reality it has created a lot of confusion and in reality something that doesn't meet anyone's real requirements without additional extra work and costs.

 

It looks like they will have to do a lot of additional re-work to now come up with two solutions that will meet two distinct groups.

 

With regards to operating on AM track, I don't have any, but on a basic loop it should work as on Lionel's Fastrack as is now but on turnouts that could be an issue. I am intrigued that no one on this list has responded what the outcome is, can anyone confirm this?

 

Also, with Gargraves track I would say that there may be some real issues here as this is Lionel 'O' gauge style track with a rounded top and I can't see the new wheel sets working well, is there anyone that can confirm this.

 

I also am intrigued as to how they pass through ACG turnouts as well, again, is there anyone in this list that can give an update on how they perform on the old ACG track system?

>>  It seems logical <snip> that Lionel might design their switches to accommodate the cars made to run on them.

Mark

 

Sure sounds logical to me.  However, if nobody writes to Lionel and complains, then they might be unaware of the confusing situation out here in the real world.  Out of curiosity, how many of the folks on this forum have actually written to L/AF to inform and educate them about the cylindrical hopper wheel issues?  If nobody complains, the next car will probably be made the same way.  Just a thought for the weekend.  Gives everyone a chance to voice their thoughts to Lionel directly.   Cheers........Ed L.