Base3 Availability

@Keith L posted:

In the case of the Base3 / Cab3 App, wasn't that announced not 3 years ago, but in January 2022, 1 year ago???

Also, when Lionel announced the Base3 / Cab3 App, the App was pretty far along for controlling engines, but they hadn't even started with functions such as switches, routes, trains, etc. Apart from manufacturing challenges, the software development is a larger undertaking than we might think.

Yeah you are right, the formal announcement was in Jan 2022, that is my memory playing tricks. But hadn't cab 2 basically been unavailable for a while back before that, so I assume Lionel was working on the replacement during that time. The reality to me is that by the time they formally announced the cab 3 the design work was done and they thought they would have shipments of it soon, I suspect the design work had been done long before and then they got shanked by the supply chain that is still so screwed up.

@RickO posted:

Many of the Lionchief locos today were originally offered with Tmcc. Pacifics, Berkshires etc, even the Mikado in the new catalog. They were offered in sets as well as separate sale. Lionel deleted the catalogs prior to 2010. I actually started in o Guage with the Tmcc semi scale mikado and berkshire back in 2005.

Tmcc was deemed obsolete the reappeared as Lionchief 2.0. And of course, the cab1L is the Tmcc cab 1 handheld minus an external antenna.

Lionel created its own incompatibility issues, then rectified them with 2.0

The cab 2 still manages to access all of the  latest whiz bang features of the newest vision line stuff.

Yes, but plenty of sets and engines were made without TMCC or were Command upgradeable. LC2 didn't hit the market until 2018-19?

I wouldn't say that TMCC was ever obsolete, It was expanded to encompass Legacy.

The technology path Lionel choose was a rocky one but now they're paving that smooth highway to included everything going forward.

@bigkid posted:

Yeah you are right, the formal announcement was in Jan 2022, that is my memory playing tricks. But hadn't cab 2 basically been unavailable for a while back before that, so I assume Lionel was working on the replacement during that time. The reality to me is that by the time they formally announced the cab 3 the design work was done and they thought they would have shipments of it soon, I suspect the design work had been done long before and then they got shanked by the supply chain that is still so screwed up.

Yes, when Lionel announced the Base3 / Cab3 App, they said they had been working on it for 3-4 years. Still, at the time of the announcement, although the app was functioning well for engines, there was much more development work to be done.

@Keith L posted:

Yes, when Lionel announced the Base3 / Cab3 App, they said they had been working on it for 3-4 years. Still, at the time of the announcement, although the app was functioning well for engines, there was much more development work to be done.

How do we know it functioned well for engines?

I’m actually fine with them releasing an app that is unfinished. Software is never done. That’s what makes it better that doing it all in hardware.

Say for instance the first version of the Cab3L software let us control engines but not switches. Then six months later we get an update that adds switch functionality… OK by me.

If the app<->base WiFi protocol (2.4Ghz) is the same as the current LCS WiFi protocol, then they can release the new app early.  If the Base3 implements a new or extended WiFi protocol (likely with 4-digit engine numbers and other features), then we have to wait for the Base3.  I have a hunch I'll be spending evenings with WireShark when I get my Base3.  I hope Lionel publishes an update to the DevPartner documentation concurrent to the Base3 release to describe the protocol extensions.

@Tracker John posted:

If the app<->base WiFi protocol (2.4Ghz) is the same as the current LCS WiFi protocol, then they can release the new app early.  If the Base3 implements a new or extended WiFi protocol (likely with 4-digit engine numbers and other features), then we have to wait for the Base3.  I have a hunch I'll be spending evenings with WireShark when I get my Base3.  I hope Lionel publishes an update to the DevPartner documentation concurrent to the Base3 release to describe the protocol extensions.

Lionel has already said that the CAB3L app will work with existing BASE2 & LCS WiFi systems, I don't see why the app can't get rolled out today. Even for folks that don't have a BASE2, the CAB3b side of the app will still work with all Bluetooth equipped locomotives.

I doubt Lionel will release any of the protocol used in the app, I think you'll be spending a lot of time reverse engineering it. The Legacy commands (for use with a serial port) have already been published.

@rplst8 posted:

How do we know it functioned well for engines?

That's what Lionel said.

@H1000 posted:

Lionel has already said that the CAB3L app will work with existing BASE2 & LCS WiFi systems, I don't see why the app can't get rolled out today. Even for folks that don't have a BASE2, the CAB3b side of the app will still work with all Bluetooth equipped locomotives.

I doubt Lionel will release any of the protocol used in the app, I think you'll be spending a lot of time reverse engineering it. The Legacy commands (for use with a serial port) have already been published.

I don't know anything about the WiFi protocol, but when I asked Lionel last fall if they might release the Cab3 App before the Base3, they said no. Personally, I hope that changes...but we'll have to wait and see.

Maybe Lionel is concerned that releasing the Cab3 app before the base will show folks they really don't need the base.  So maybe they will just wait until the base arrives.  Just speculating.

@Keith L posted:

I don't know anything about the WiFi protocol, but when I asked Lionel last fall if they might release the Cab3 App before the Base3, they said no. Personally, I hope that changes...but we'll have to wait and see.

I agree, I think getting the CAB3 app out will help generate some more buzz about the BASE3 and some of it's features and help ramp up more orders.

I do want to try the app sooner rather than with the Base3 release.  I worry the Cab3 app interface is going to drive me nuts with the clustering of touches I'll use a lot - slow speed control, Eng, Train, direction, and Emergency Stop.  With my fat fingering, I'll be killing the layout more than I like.

Since the CAB3 app is your interface to the BASE3, I'd certainly want to see it before I plunked down the money for the BASE3!

Let's all play the "OGRR Speculation without Facts" game about the BASE3.

This is where we speculate about an unreleased product.

To play, just throw out a few wild guesses in the guise of facts that we can all endlessly speculate about.

it's FUN AND passes the time.

On the other hand, we can just wait until the Base 3 IS released to discover the actual features and its usefulness.

Oh Heck, what's the FUN in doing that!

I don't see how anyone get to test drive the Cab3 app if the Cab3 base system is not on their model railroad. That doesn't seem like a good use of Lionel's time. Since nobody has the Cab3 yet we would all need to pay for the Cab3 app without having the code that comes with the purchase of a Cab 3 base.

If Lionel put the Cab3 at the google play and apple stores now Lionel will need to update the app periodically even though it will not be possible to use the app. Seems like a waste of Lionel's money, another reason to see these prices rise!

This is the real problem with the app based world, developers need to update their apps periodically to keep up with changes in operating systems. If Lionel stopped updating the Cab3 app eventually the base3 would not be usable without a physical remote.

I am disappointed to see the delays but I understand.

I think Lionel has a real problem establishing value for the Base3 with the higher end hobbyist.  What has been announced so far concerning it's features doesn't have me even thinking about one.  The longer delivery drags on the more I think I don't need one...

What would excite people is a Cab3 Bluetooth dock for your cell phone.  Just sayin!

@AlanRail posted:

Let's all play the "OGRR Speculation without Facts" game about the BASE3.

This is where we speculate about an unreleased product.

To play, just throw out a few wild guesses in the guise of facts that we can all endlessly speculate about.

it's FUN AND passes the time.

On the other hand, we can just wait until the Base 3 IS released to discover the actual features and its usefulness.

Oh Heck, what's the FUN in doing that!

I hear the App 3 will summon coffee and danishes.  In order to do this though it must be connected to the Base3.  If you connect to the LCS WiFi box you only get a half drunken McDonald's coffee and some egg McMuffin crumbs.

@SGP posted:

I don't see how anyone get to test drive the Cab3 app if the Cab3 base system is not on their model railroad. That doesn't seem like a good use of Lionel's time. Since nobody has the Cab3 yet we would all need to pay for the Cab3 app without having the code that comes with the purchase of a Cab 3 base.

If Lionel put the Cab3 at the google play and apple stores now Lionel will need to update the app periodically even though it will not be possible to use the app. Seems like a waste of Lionel's money, another reason to see these prices rise!

This is the real problem with the app based world, developers need to update their apps periodically to keep up with changes in operating systems. If Lionel stopped updating the Cab3 app eventually the base3 would not be usable without a physical remote.

I am disappointed to see the delays but I understand.

Let's clear something up and no this is not speculation this comes from question section of a demos with Dave video.

The CAB3 app has two operating modes: CAB3-B & CAB3-L. The CAB3-L mode requires a BASE3 or a BASE2 with a WiFi module so those with the latter setup could use it now but you also must buy an unlock to use the CAB3-L mode (a free unlock coupon is included with the BASE3 hardware).

The other mode is CAB3-B. This mode operates purely on the Bluetooth connectivity in your phone and will only work with Bluetooth equipped Legacy & LionCheif engines, no other hardware needed. This operating mode is completely free and will not require any unlocks, just install the app and run up to 3 engines. I speculate that the CAB3-B app will replace the current LionCheif app which can only run one engine.

So yes, it should be possible to "put the cart before the horse" in releasing the CAB3 app before the BASE3 hardware.

@MartyE posted:

I hear the App 3 will summon coffee and danishes.  In order to do this though it must be connected to the Base3. 

Just when I thought I had no interest in the App or the base 3....

Now you've got my attention Marty!!

@RickO posted:

Just when I thought I had no interest in the App or the base 3....

Now you've got my attention Marty!!

Well I didn't pre-order it to run my trains.

@bigkid posted:

It can work, but in practical reality what often happens is the teams, rather creatively competing to come up with a better product, end up spending more time angling to make themselves look better and get more resources. Kind of like spy agencies that often were doing things to get allocations rather than doing effective intelligence work *lol*. I met Gene Amdahl many years later when he was promoting galenium arsenide as a replacement for silicon and was working on supercomputers and feuding with Seymour Kray *lol*

Respectfully, it’s Cray, not Kray. Unless that was a joke, in which case, I don’t get it.

Steve

Supply chain issues are, I suspect, the real problem. I occasionally bypass an area that is known for storing a VERY large quantity of Ford pickup trucks due to chip shortages. The area was full a year ago, but by late summer was empty. Sometime last fall it started filling up again and I thought this is not good. I passed the area around Dec. 20th and the lots are full again. Face it, chips are used in all parts of our lives. Some products, that use chips, will get higher priority than others. It boils down to money and essential stuff. But probably mostly money. Larger companies have deeper pockets. ‘nough said. We know it’s good to have multiple sources in supply chains.
Steve

@H1000 posted:

This mode operates purely on the Bluetooth connectivity in your phone and will only work with Bluetooth equipped Legacy & LionCheif engines, no other hardware needed. This operating mode is completely free and will not require any unlocks, just install the app and run up to 3 engines. I speculate that the CAB3-B app will replace the current LionCheif app which can only run one engine.

So yes, it should be possible to "put the cart before the horse" in releasing the CAB3 app before the BASE3 hardware.

I overlooked the bluetooth functionality aspect of the app and how it could have the functionality as the LionCheif app. I was thinking that the bluetooth mode of the app was just a glorified LionCheif plus app inside the app, but maybe it can give you the Legacy features through bluetooth?

@RideTheRails posted:

Respectfully, it’s Cray, not Kray. Unless that was a joke, in which case, I don’t get it.

Steve

Not a joke,just a typo.

@RideTheRails posted:

Respectfully, it’s Cray, not Kray. Unless that was a joke, in which case, I don’t get it.

Seymour would be upset if you misspelled his name.

here's why I really hate these endless speculations of unreleased products; I Listen to Them.

Years ago, When DCS first appeared, there was endless speculation as to how MTH's DCS would operate. I listened and revised my layout to reflect certain false statements that were speculated as true AT THE TIME.

Yes, lazy me should have read the manual before making the changes.

I relied on the thread-SPECULATIONs instead of the real facts IN THE MANUAL.

I KNOW DUMB.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Seymour would be upset if you misspelled his name.

(Not trying to highjack the thread). GRJ - did you ever meet Amdahl or Cray? If so, wow!

Steve

Nope, I saw Seymour Cray in a meeting with folks at Univac in 1975, but we didn't get the chance to actually "meet" him.  He was there pitching his supercomputer to Univac.  OTOH, I did actually get to meet Bill Gates in 2007 at the Microsoft MVP week in Seattle.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I did actually get to meet Bill Gates in 2007 at the Microsoft MVP week in Seattle.

Was he handing out free copies of Windows Vista!?!?!? 🤣

@AlanRail posted:

here's why I really hate these endless speculations of unreleased products…

Well, you’ve got the wrong thread. I started the thread a while back to discuss it’s availability. I noticed a marked change in the estimated delivery date On Charles Ro’s site. Since then they have adjusted it again to July rather than November.

However Dave Olsen confirmed in another thread just in the last few days that they’re hoping for 3rd quarter of this year.

The only speculation was about when we might have it in our hands, not what features it would provide or how to use it.

@H1000 posted:

Was he handing out free copies of Windows Vista!?!?!? 🤣

Well, being a Microsoft MVP, I got all the software that Microsoft produced over those years.  So, in a way, he was handing out Windows.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Nope, I saw Seymour Cray in a meeting with folks at Univac in 1975, but we didn't get the chance to actually "meet" him.  He was there pitching his supercomputer to Univac.  OTOH, I did actually get to meet Bill Gates in 2007 at the Microsoft MVP week in Seattle.

Something kind of funny about that, that is cutting edge meeting kind of all purpose, bland computing. I would guess it didn't go over well with them, I can just see the Sperry people saying "High speed computing? Who needs that?" I worked on those beasts for a number of years, the front end of the New York Stock exchange ran on Univac 1180's unto like 1986. the bond trading system back end was an 11/60 until roughly 1991.

@bigkid posted:

I worked on those beasts for a number of years, the front end of the New York Stock exchange ran on Univac 1180's unto like 1986. the bond trading system back end was an 11/60 until roughly 1991.

Did you mean the Univac 1108, never heard of an 1180.  There is an 1100/80, although I never saw one in person.  I did a lot of development work using the 1108 in the late 70's.  Actually, in the 1980's and early 1990's, I worked with the NYSE a lot, we even had an office at 11 Wall St.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Did you mean the Univac 1108, never heard of an 1180.  There is an 1100/80, although I never saw one in person.  I did a lot of development work using the 1108 in the late 70's.  Actually, in the 1980's and early 1990's, I worked with the NYSE a lot, we even had an office at 11 Wall St.

Nope, the 1180 and 1160 were later models in the 1100 series. I never figured out what the official names were, some said 1100/80 or 1100/60, but usually referred to it as 1180 and 1160. The NYSE 1180 system actually had a Collins supposed mainframe (Collins as in radio transmitters) as a front end, they communicated by this weird coms link, and then the coms boards were in a Dec PDP 1 (not 11, 1) ....that is how the member firm lines came in until about 1986. The Bonds system ran on the 1160 platform. The 1160 was supposed to be a universal processor, you loaded in microcode via 8 inch floppy, and it had the capability where you could load in a microcode set that would allow it to run IBM System 370 code (it wasn't used like that at SIAC, ran Univac OS).  What made it even more weird was the system was written in Fortran 66 (the bond system), because of its numeric handling, but boy was it spaghetti code.

@bigkid posted:

What made it even more weird was the system was written in Fortran 66 (the bond system), because of its numeric handling, but boy was it spaghetti code.

Yep, the 1100/80 was the official name.  As I said, I never actually encountered those,   As to Fortran, Univac (Sperry) loved Fortran and much of their O/S code was actually written in Fortran.  I often marveled at all the additions they made to the language to make it suitable to write O/S code.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Yep, the 1100/80 was the official name.  As I said, I never actually encountered those,   As to Fortran, Univac (Sperry) loved Fortran and much of their O/S code was actually written in Fortran.  I often marveled at all the additions they made to the language to make it suitable to write O/S code.

I worked for a former Sperry Aerospace location in New Mexico after college. At that time it was Honeywell Defense Avionics which had purchased Sperry and had been recently taken over by Allied Signal which dissolved the Allied brand in favor of the more reputable Honeywell name. 

@rplst8 posted:

I worked for a former Sperry Aerospace location in New Mexico after college. At that time it was Honeywell Defense Avionics which had purchased Sperry and had been recently taken over by Allied Signal which dissolved the Allied brand in favor of the more reputable Honeywell name.

Funny the circles things run in. My dad worked for Bendix, and they ended up bought by Allied in the mid 80's after the idiot running Bendix tried an absolutely stupid hostile takeover of Martin Marietta.

Search brought up this thread - so what is the current expectation for ordering and receiving the Lionel Base 3?
I checked the Charles Ro store and the date there has moved to April 2024, is that as accurate as most estimates?

Lionel was stating Feb for "completion", so it stands to reason there'll be some time between "completion" and delivery to the end user.  As for accuracy, the only people that know anything useful about that is Lionel and/or the folks in China that are actually manufacturing the product.

Dave provided his latest estimate for the Base3 at the 47 minute mark in the Live YouTube hosted by MartyE. Loaded on the boat by end of February, arrive at Lionel early April, begin shipping to dealers/customers later in April. The website for the Cab3 is planned to go live in January. I found the YouTube to be well worth the time to watch.

........."beeeechfront properteeee in Areeeeezona"...........