Bench work help!

mike g. posted:

Ok Guys, I need some input. I am going to be building my bench work with 1x4" and 2x2 legs, so I have 2 questions.

My first thought is do NOT use 2"X2" for legs, as they will eventually warp. I use 1"X4" screwed/glued together in an "L" pattern, as they are light and extremely strong.

1) What would you suggest for spacing of the "L" girders ?

My "L" girders are 1"X4" with a 1"X2" screwed/glued on top to form the "L", and spaced 12" to 18" apart. Thus 3 or 4 adults can be up on top of the layout at a time, working on track & scenery. 

2) What thickness would you suggest for plywood top?

I went with 3/4" roofing plywood, thus it is extremely strong.

Thanks in advance!

Mike, I have built my tables with 1 X 4 framing and 2 X 4 legs. I have used 24 " spacing on the cross pieces. Somebody mentioned not going with 2 x 2 for legs because of warping. I have always used 2 X 4's. At the bottom of the legs I use Carrage bolts with a nut as leveling screws. I drill the hole for the bolt then finish with a larger hole for the nut. I hammer the nut into the wood and I then have my leveling bolt. I would go with 15' spacing of the L girders. Years and years ago I used 3/4" plywood but have settled into using 1/2" plywood. ...............Paul

Mike, Both Paul's and Hot Water's suggestions are good!  I think the difference between 3/4" or 1/2" plywood and spacing of L girders depends on whether you plan to crawl or stand on the layout, or not.  I have never built a layout with the intention of getting up on it, so the lighter plywood and 16" spacing has worked for me.  My layouts have always been built to be able to reach everything while standing on the floor.

I agree 100% with Mark.  To make things easier in the grid construction I used a nail gun.  Good luck Mike.

Mike, I think you'll need to get up on your layout in order to install the track and landscaping in the bottom center of your design and maybe in the center of the circular peninsula. That would suggest not using 2x2's for legs, at least not in that area. I'm a fan of Alex's method shown in the attached photo. It's similar to forming an "L" using 1x4s (or 2x4's), but instead of just screwing the legs to the corner of the frame, the offset allows the weight of the decking to rest on the top of the leg rather than putting pressure on the screws.

Using 3/4" vs 1/2" for decking is always a dilemma. I lean toward 1/2" simply because it's cheaper and lighter, meaning easier for this old guy to carry. I think if you space your girders 24" or less apart, you'll find that both will work just fine, though I would probably use 16" or less with 1/2". Jim Barrett did a series on his 1x3/2x2 layout in OGR back in 2013/2014. He found that one of the keys to noise reduction was minimizing vibration, so he suggested using 16" centers for 1/2" plywood. Some advantages to 3/4" are less warping and arguably less noise with wider spacing because the thicker material won't vibrate as much. 1/2" is lighter and good for modular layouts, but once it's laid on a permanent layout who really cares how much it weighs? Tom Tee is a big fan of a product called Advantech, if you can find it. Our 84 Lumber doesn't stock it, but will order it with a 2-3 day shipping time frame.

Mike, I don't do L girder. I just build grid frames with 1x4, no nails! drywall screws. Two foot spacing on the grids. Legs are just 2x4's. Regular 3/4" B-C plywood works fine. Good enough for me to walk on, I'm sure you don't weigh what I do. I also put down a layer of fiber board on top of the plywood for sound deadening. Homasote is way too expensive, and hard to find these days.

Hi Mike

I think Marks point about all the suggestions being good.

I have always been accused of going a little overboard on my building habits.

I used 2X4 completely and covered with 1/2 inch plywood then covered it with quite brace. Quite brace is a inexpensive sound  material that is a mess to work with but, suppose to help reduce noise. (debatable)

I needed this overkill because I have lots of over head storage areas.

I needed to be able to walk anywhere on my layout if I wanted to.

Besides I like to dance on the table.  with a Coors light of course.

 I also wanted to close the bench frame with walls all the way around and add doors. Once again for storage under the layout.

Have fun with it and if possible don't make it a job.

Larry

Semper Fi.

OK Mike, I guess my previous post here got deleted because i made a snarky remark about most people that post here seem to over-build - preparing for an earthquake or nuclear attack. Mine has been up since 1988 in an upstate NY basement with no problems. 28' x 30" along a wall & 17' x 36" along another wall plus 4' x 8' extension on the 17' wall and a 12' x 12' peninsula. Legs are 2x3, 2x2's will warp and 2x4's are overkill. Get your local independent lumber yard to make you 2x3's out of 2x6's (inexpensive). The exterior framing is all 1x4; cross braces spaced 12" to 18" apart are all 1x2's. It is all topped with a mix of lumber depending on the terrain: either 1"pine or 3/4" ply depending on what i had on hand. The 4'x8' hidden loop and the 17'x36" yard lead/passenger yard is ALL 1/4" ply topped with 1/2" Homasote. Both those areas will support my 200+LBS. As to the price of Homasote: it's about $20 - $25 a 4x8 sheet - inconsequential when folks are spending $1000 on engines and $100ea. on Ross turnouts. As i said mine has been up 30 years, visited 3 or 4 times by the NMRA and may be the subject of a LCCA article. Good luck.

mike g. posted:

Ok Guys, I need some input. I am going to be building my bench work with 1x4" and 2x2 legs, so I have 2 questions.

1) What would you suggest for spacing of the "L" girders ?

2) What thickness would you suggest for plywood top?

Thanks in advance!

Mike  If you are using a solid plywood top  I am not sure why you would bother with L girder.  I have always used 2x4 or 2x3 legs with 1/2 inch plywood and regular 1x4 lumber for the frame, no L girder.  I basically used 16" spacing although you could use 24" if you put a 5th leg in the center.  I have used L girder when I am building a mostly open frame with only occasional pieces of plywood.

Al Galli

I agree with not using 2x2s due to warping. I don't know a lot about the L-girder or 1x? whatever size for framing, but I agree with the 16" or so spacing between support members and 1/2" plywood is fine, IMO. Get some nice plywood like Home Depot's sandply or birch plywood. The yellow pine they sell as sheathing will warp on you, if not already warped when you get it. OSB or MDF have little to no warping as well. I never liked the idea of the OSB because of the rough surface, but I think they now have some that is more regular and even surfaced. May be called something else these days though?

The reason I have no experience with the 1x? or 2x? benchwork framing is because I used Mianne for my benchwork. Topped it with 1/2" sandply from HD (which they cut into smaller sizes that I could handle) for a top and it made a very solid table. You can climb up and walk around on it all day with no problem. FWIW, I do like the idea of the 1x3-1x4 on 90 deg angles for the legs. Seems like they would be pretty solid. Dave's example above looks pretty solid too, IMO. However, if you get a good grade of 1x3-1x4 you might be able to get the 2x4s for less cost? I haven't priced that stuff lately, but the good 1x?s used to be more than the 2x?s?. HAven't looked at them recently though.

From the looks of your train room addition it appears you are pretty good with lumber. There is a lot of good advice here (everyone does things differently) so take the best of it all and do what you are most comfortable with in your methods of construction.

Good Luck and we like to look at pictures, that includes pics of the inspections (if he is not too tired that is)! 

All good advice!  I did notice one thing I forgot to say.  I have used open grid and L-girder in the past.  I used L-girder when I had an open frame with risers and cookie cutter roadbed, with sections of wider plywood for yards or flat town areas.  I plan on using open grid of 1x3 lumber for the open grid, but use 2x4s for the legs simply because I brought a bunch of 2x4 material home from my dad's shop we cleaned out last month.  I have some 1'2" plywood from Dad and some from a friend, so I will use it.  I also have a lot of left over 1/2" Homasote I will use, but would probably buy sound board if I run out of Homasote.  

I do like Alex's leg construction, but I think I'll have enough 2x4s.  If not, I will try Alex's method.  Dave is right, you have that wide area you may want to climb up on unless you build a pop up somewhere.

Larry, your ceiling, overhead shelves and cupboards look fantastic and quite functional!

There are lots of excellent suggestions above. The only one that caught my eye was one about using nails or a nail gun. Nails have no place in Model Railroad benchwork. Except possibly finishing nails to hang up the backdrop. The distance between your elders will depend upon the thickness of the plywood you use. Do not stand on your layout. Repeat do not stand on your layout. You need to figure out where you will have access holes if you have over 30 in to reach. The spacing I used on mine I probably overdid it I did 16 in. Most people do 24 in. If you're using a sub base of half an inch 4 Road bed and your top layer is half an inch for your road bed and by Road bed on talking about the plywood base that's going to support the railroad bed in the track one in you will be fine that is more than enough. Unless, and I forgive me for repeating. Do not stand on your layout. There are many track Arrangements you can do in your space or there are access holes that you can do that will prevent you from having to do that which is always a mistake. Sooner or later it becomes a problem and your knees and back will thank you.

John C. posted:

There are lots of excellent suggestions above. The only one that caught my eye was one about using nails or a nail gun. Nails have no place in Model Railroad benchwork. Except possibly finishing nails to hang up the backdrop.

I whole heartedly agree with this statement!!!!!!   We used nothing but wood screws and TightBond Professional wood glue. After the glue set, I removed all the screws and refused them, over and over and over. Our whole layout is held together with pretty much NOTHING but TightBond Professional Wood Glue, as the single box of wood screws has pretty much been lost in the process. The same process was used for the road bed (VinylBed) and track laying, i.e. the road bed was glued down with TightBond, then later the track was glued down and screwed until the glue set. I few days later, I removed any & all track screws.  

The distance between your elders will depend upon the thickness of the plywood you use. Do not stand on your layout. Repeat do not stand on your layout. You need to figure out where you will have access holes if you have over 30 in to reach. The spacing I used on mine I probably overdid it I did 16 in. Most people do 24 in. If you're using a sub base of half an inch 4 Road bed and your top layer is half an inch for your road bed and by Road bed on talking about the plywood base that's going to support the railroad bed in the track one in you will be fine that is more than enough. Unless, and I forgive me for repeating. Do not stand on your layout. There are many track Arrangements you can do in your space or there are access holes that you can do that will prevent you from having to do that which is always a mistake. Sooner or later it becomes a problem and your knees and back will thank you.

Mike, I must have missed the post about nails because I also agree with John C, nails have no place on a layout. I tend to agree about walking on the layout too, but that doesn't stop folks. You have plenty of space in the circle to add a large access hatch to reach those bottom tracks and I suggest you plan for that.

John C, you mention 1/2" for sub-roadbed and 1/2" for roadbed. Are you talking a plywood base with a layer of something like Homasote? Or something else entirely?

Hi everyone and thanks you for all the advice! I have a lot to think about, I was thinking 5/8" plywood, I hove no problem going with 2x4 legs,  but I am still not sure on spacing, 16" OC would be a lot more wood, I don't plan on standing on it and the bench is mostly 30" wide and about 36" high. I will mull it over before I hit the lumber yard!

Thanks again everyone!

Mike, Seriously you don't need 2x4 legs unless you're building something the size of Elliot's; 2x3's will save you some money (to buy more trains with). As to height consider 42" -  48"; your back will thank you and it's a better height to view trains at. Remember when we were kids and would lie on the floor looking at our trains running around the Xmas tree or on the carpet central at eye level. With 5/8" ply 30" wide max and in some areas against the wall, you might get away with 20+" OC if everything is screwed down securely. i'm helping 2 friends build HO benchwork right now and they're both planning high surfaces -- one 55" and the other 60". Grandkids? They grow and that's what stools are for.

John C. posted:

There are lots of excellent suggestions above. The only one that caught my eye was one about using nails or a nail gun. Nails have no place in Model Railroad benchwork. Except possibly finishing nails to hang up the backdrop. 

John when you're 74 yrs old, have arthritis in both shoulders, tethered to an oxygen concentrator (COPD) and working alone, the nail gun sure does help getting the job done.

wild mary posted:

John C. posted:

There are lots of excellent suggestions above. The only one that caught my eye was one about using nails or a nail gun. Nails have no place in Model Railroad benchwork. Except possibly finishing nails to hang up the backdrop. 

John when you're 74 yrs old, have arthritis in both shoulders, tethered to an oxygen concentrator (COPD) and working alone, the nail gun sure does help getting the job done.

Given those constraints, it's understandable that you would choose nails. However, that is not the optimal fastener. The advent of the impact driver makes using screws the way to go. I also use a piloting / countersink combo to predrill holes near the end of boards to keep them from splitting.

Contrary to Hot Water's practice, I glue NOTHING. If it is necessary to remove anything, you'll have to really bust things up. If you decide to make changes, you can reuse the lumber. I've been reusing lumber for over 40 years, and some of it is in my current layout.

You probably have no idea how much load wood can carry when placed on end. The weak link will be the fastener. The thing about 2x4's is they are the least expensive piece of lumber. Just use them for legs.

To determine layout height, just sit on the floor or your creeper of choice, and hold up a tape measure. Reach above your head to a comfortable height. Personally, my layout is 42" minus the benchwork thickness of 4 - 3/4", so 37 - 1/4" clear head space. 

Just remember that drywall screws are not structural.   Screws have very little shear strength.  They work for legs as long as you are using mortises or rabbits.  If connecting 2 pieces face to face, nails are better if you plan on standing on your layout.  There's also structural screws such as grks but they are pricey.  

Todd Knoll posted:

Just remember that drywall screws are not structural.   Screws have very little shear strength.  They work for legs as long as you are using mortises or rabbits.  If connecting 2 pieces face to face, nails are better if you plan on standing on your layout.  There's also structural screws such as grks but they are pricey.  

In theory, that may be true, but I have over 40 pounds of drywall screws holding my layout together, and I haven't had one fail yet. I weigh over 300 pounds, and have no problem walking on the benchwork.

Some more good thoughts guys! I thought I would add a picture of the layout so you all will know what I am building. I thought of the 36" height because that is the height of the window the wife wants me to run it out into her garden down the road.36" was the min height I could go, I can always go higher.

Here is a SCARM picture of the future layout!

I used 1 x 4 and 2 x 2's for my L Girder and 1/2 ply for table. I cannot tell you how strong it is as I have walked all over it warpage on 2 x 2 s will be kept to a minimum I think due to bracing and gussets.

Joe Gozzo

Joe, That's some wonderful looking work! Just the kind of information I was looking for! Thanks for the pictures!

Mike,

I used this book exclusively to build my layout. I found L-girder simple to construct, with a lot less lumber. If L-girder interests you, this book is tremendous help. Just for the record, it states that a properly braced 2X2 will support over 1000# vertically.

I totally agree with John's post above,   I bought this book followed the directions, worked out great....   

Mike G.... If your benchwork is 36 wide or less, I would build the wall supports recommended in this book and have no legs at all....   easy to move around underneath to do wiring, piece of cake to take out the upright vacuum and clean under there...  

The wall brackets are really nothing much more than a 2 x 2 with 1 x 2 angle supports and 1 x 4  's screwed to both sides of the 2 x 2 at 90 degrees to lay your L girders on.....    Then just lag bolt the triangle to your wall studs through the 2 x 2 upright....  

John and Chris, I have the same book. I bought it about a year ago when you first told me about it John! Great book, I plan on fallowing it as good as I can!

Thanks again!

Chris, that sure is some great looking bench work! Thank you for the pictures!

Big_Boy_4005 posted:

wild mary posted:

John C. posted:

There are lots of excellent suggestions above. The only one that caught my eye was one about using nails or a nail gun. Nails have no place in Model Railroad benchwork. Except possibly finishing nails to hang up the backdrop. 

John when you're 74 yrs old, have arthritis in both shoulders, tethered to an oxygen concentrator (COPD) and working alone, the nail gun sure does help getting the job done.

Given those constraints, it's understandable that you would choose nails. However, that is not the optimal fastener. The advent of the impact driver makes using screws the way to go. I also use a piloting / countersink combo to predrill holes near the end of boards to keep them from splitting.

Contrary to Hot Water's practice, I glue NOTHING. If it is necessary to remove anything, you'll have to really bust things up. If you decide to make changes, you can reuse the lumber. I've been reusing lumber for over 40 years, and some of it is in my current layout.

You probably have no idea how much load wood can carry when placed on end. The weak link will be the fastener. The thing about 2x4's is they are the least expensive piece of lumber. Just use them for legs.

To determine layout height, just sit on the floor or your creeper of choice, and hold up a tape measure. Reach above your head to a comfortable height. Personally, my layout is 42" minus the benchwork thickness of 4 - 3/4", so 37 - 1/4" clear head space. 

What I didn't mention is that I still use deck screws.  The nail gun is used to secure  everything in position.  BTW the optimun screws are deck screws,  They're not brittle and have 8 times the shear strength over drywall screws.  Drywall screws are for hanging sheetrock, not for joining wood.

If you just screw the deck to the top of the frame, there is NO shear force applied to the frame members. If you're doing some kind of cookie cutter roadbed, then there will be slight shear force on the screws, but not enough to make a difference.

One of the big advantages of L-girder is that everything is attached from underneath using cleats or part of the L. If part of the table needs to be removed, there would be no hidden screws to search for under scenery. But probably no one ever wants to change things after scenery is done. 😉

John H posted:

One of the big advantages of L-girder is that everything is attached from underneath using cleats or part of the L. If part of the table needs to be removed, there would be no hidden screws to search for under scenery. But probably no one ever wants to change things after scenery is done. 😉

I have never liked or done L girder. It would be a real problem for my multi level design, with the L's making access much more difficult. The upper deck wouldn't even be possible if that was my foundation.

Plus, cleats can be used on bull nose bench work too. Mianne is basically bull nose and they attach the decking from the bottom.

Oh, you poor deprived American carpenters.  When will you ever adopt Robertson screws?  It's probably one of the most important Canadian inventions, along with drinkable beer, that makes for happy woodworkers.  I built the entire train room exclusively with Robertson.

Bruce

brwebster posted:

Oh, you poor deprived American carpenters.  When will you ever adopt Robertson screws?  It's probably one of the most important Canadian inventions, along with drinkable beer, that makes for happy woodworkers.  I built the entire train room exclusively with Robertson.

Bruce

What you call Robertson screws I call deck screws.  

Mike I think you're getting a little more info than you bargained for but that's the nature of this forum.  Just ask "what time is it" and you'll learn how to build a clock.  In the end it's a good thing.

mike g. posted:

Joe, That's some wonderful looking work! Just the kind of information I was looking for! Thanks for the pictures!

 Thanks Mike however although I did was follow the instructions in line wescotts book that somebody showed on your post it shows you how far apart to put the supports depending on the size of the table you're building and you screw that plywood down from underneath so that way of you need to move it or replace it you can do so

Thanks everyone, I guess I need to reread Linn Westcoott's book again!

Mike,

Email is in my profile. send me an email so I can give you a call to discuses.

Joe

When I built my last layout, I used 2" x 4" for my legs, I put my legs every 3' ( give or take a foot due to size of layout. (8' x 14' )I used 1" x 2" and built my framing like a would do a wall, every 16"  then I put 23/32" plywood on top and fastened it with deck screws. I weigh about 275 LBs and never had a problem. I was forever getting up on it.  on top of my 1" x 2" I laid 1" x 2" flat and then I put strips of indoor/outdoor carpet to keep the sound going down the legs. I also coated my screws with liquid electrical tape and it helped also on the sound, by preventing the sound to travel to the legs. ( not perfect, but it helped a lot. ) I also did this to my screws for my track. I also used indoor/outdoor green carpet for my cover of the plywood. 

Mike, don't overthink this, every method mentioned so far will work. One of the main ideas behind L-girder was being able to use cross-members of different lengths so you could have an irregular shaped deck with curves instead of straight lines.

Unless you change things, yours is going to be a 30" deep shelf around the room with a peninsula in the center of one side. If you compare the L-girder example on the cover of his Linn's book to the bull nose example in Figure 3-1, you'll see that the only real difference is the placement of the rails. Also note, that both examples appear to show a 4x8 sheet where the legs are 2' apart with a 1' overhang on both sides. If you look at Joe's photos, he appears to have legs that are 4' apart with 2' overhangs to support an 8' deep deck, though it could just be the photos making them look that size. The point is you're only dealing with a 30" deep span which would suggest rails 18" apart with 6" overhangs or a rail against the wall with another rail 24" out with a 6" overhang. The peninsula then gets an extra 1-2 rails with longer cross-members.

One advantage to L-girder is that you aren't screwing into the end grain of the cross-members. Another is that the cross-members don't have to be exact lengths like with bull nose framing.

One disadvantage is that L-girder adds thickness to the bench work. If you use 1x4's, you have the rails at ~4" and then the cross-members at another ~4". If you make the deck 36", you have to stoop below ~30" to get under the layout. I don't know about you, but stooping under 30" gets harder every year. Even 42" still means a ~36" stoop.

And, as Tom Tee's photos show, you can do all but the peninsula without any legs if you want to attach cantilevered brace assemblies to the wall studs.

The way I see it you need a 12' long frame along both side walls, a 19' frame along the bottom wall. From what I can see it might look something like this: