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mike g. posted:

Thanks everyone, I guess I need to reread Linn Westcoott's book again!

Mike, I think the cost differential between Two 2x4's and One 2x6 (which would become two 2x3's) is a regional one. When i built my layout i priced 2x4's at 3 sources: Home Depot (tight curves), Lowe's (sweeping curves), Independent (straight) against the same independent for 2x6's (straight & cut to 2x3's), and the 2x6's won out. BUT this may be a function of local building codes; 2x6's are required on all new construction around here, plus most contractors use them on remodels wherever possible, required or not. Hence the good lumber yards stock them in quantity and price them competitively.

modeltrainsparts posted:
mike g. posted:

Thanks everyone, I guess I need to reread Linn Westcoott's book again!

Mike, I think the cost differential between Two 2x4's and One 2x6 (which would become two 2x3's) is a regional one. When i built my layout i priced 2x4's at 3 sources: Home Depot (tight curves), Lowe's (sweeping curves), Independent (straight) against the same independent for 2x6's (straight & cut to 2x3's), and the 2x6's won out. BUT this may be a function of local building codes; 2x6's are required on all new construction around here, plus most contractors use them on remodels wherever possible, required or not. Hence the good lumber yards stock them in quantity and price them competitively.

That's the thing here, 2x4's are more then 2x6, so I could get 2x6 rip them in half for my legs and a lesser cost then a single 2x4! Great Point!

Tom Tee posted:

Maybe consider no legs at all:

East wall knee studs 006unpretty construction photos Feb 11 001unpretty construction photos Feb 11 005unpretty construction photos Feb 11 006unpretty construction photos Feb 11 004

Or build over a knee wall as i did in my staging room shown below.  The knee wall encloses the sewer pipe and the wires run in a "J" trim along the edge.  The slots provide visual guide for 0-5-0 access.

IMG_8505

The fasteners shown are Grip Rite construction screws.  I have used drywall screws but I have  been discouraged by having conventional drywall screw heads twist off in subsequent use.  Not real frequent,  but enough to stop using them.

IMG_8510

Tom, You have some great bench work there! I was thinking about the same thing, but just a 2x3 back to the toe of the wall and setting a rail all the way around the room as a ledger!

Mike, you really, really don't want legs - and the support legs for the peninsula can be set back as much as a foot from the edge if you use half inch ply deck. Three-quarter inch deck is even better.

How you build the pylons for the cantilevered supports can be basic. The top only needs to be 20-24" for a 30" wide deck.

Did you frame on 16" or 24" centers?  if 16", then a pylon every other stud will be plenty.

Mike - FWIW, I used 2x4 legs and 1x4's for cross-members on my new layout which is basically ladder-type construction. I also used 1/2" plywood sanded on one side and built on 16" centers for the cross-members. The layout is extremely solid - even with 1" foam on top - I can crawl on it no problem.

Assuming you can keep the cuts straight, I see no problem with using ripped 2x6's for the legs. 

Like Mary said, I used nails only to hold the wood in place in some spots before securing with 2" drywall screws for the frame and 1 1/2" for the top.

I also drilled holes for wiring in the cross-members with a drill press before assembly.

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Tom Tee posted:

Legs.  I have  used many types of material and styles for legs.  No one favorite for me.

Maybe one of the least expensive and common materials is split 2 by 4s.  

I take a length of 2 x 4 and rip it diagonally.  I Then  invert one of the halves and reattach it with LockTite's Premium Urethane adhesive, using a brad gun to hold them  in place overnight.

Wipe off excess adhesive in an hour or so and run a round over bit on the outside corner edge the next day.  Be careful when using the brad gun to stay away from that corner.  Do not hit a brad with the round over bit.

In the photo below disregard the 2 x 4 stub on the bottom.  That was for a special purpose.  Not needed.

Reversing the grain at a ninety degree angle has been very helpful in eliminating warpage.

IMG_8938IMG_8939

End shot.

IMG_8940

The added stability really helped  for this 55" high layout.

Jack Tracy 005

Painted and installed below.

Bob Valley lift out II

Tom, I've always wondered if you were a cabinetmaker in a previous life. Your benchwork is spectacular. I'd love to see your layout in person. We had planned a trip out your way this fall, but had to cancel after I stepped on a nail. We are going to reschedule for spring. I'll email you when we figure things out.

DoubleDAZ posted:

Mike, don't overthink this, every method mentioned so far will work. One of the main ideas behind L-girder was being able to use cross-members of different lengths so you could have an irregular shaped deck with curves instead of straight lines.

Unless you change things, yours is going to be a 30" deep shelf around the room with a peninsula in the center of one side. If you compare the L-girder example on the cover of his Linn's book to the bull nose example in Figure 3-1, you'll see that the only real difference is the placement of the rails. Also note, that both examples appear to show a 4x8 sheet where the legs are 2' apart with a 1' overhang on both sides. If you look at Joe's photos, he appears to have legs that are 4' apart with 2' overhangs to support an 8' deep deck, though it could just be the photos making them look that size. The point is you're only dealing with a 30" deep span which would suggest rails 18" apart with 6" overhangs or a rail against the wall with another rail 24" out with a 6" overhang. The peninsula then gets an extra 1-2 rails with longer cross-members.

One advantage to L-girder is that you aren't screwing into the end grain of the cross-members. Another is that the cross-members don't have to be exact lengths like with bull nose framing.

One disadvantage is that L-girder adds thickness to the bench work. If you use 1x4's, you have the rails at ~4" and then the cross-members at another ~4". If you make the deck 36", you have to stoop below ~30" to get under the layout. I don't know about you, but stooping under 30" gets harder every year. Even 42" still means a ~36" stoop.

And, as Tom Tee's photos show, you can do all but the peninsula without any legs if you want to attach cantilevered brace assemblies to the wall studs.

The way I see it you need a 12' long frame along both side walls, a 19' frame along the bottom wall. From what I can see it might look something like this:

Capture

 

Mike, in your case I think Dave’s suggestions are spot on!  I cantilevered a 30” shelf on one wall in my small train room

Tom Tee posted:

Elliot,  sure, we can share nail/foot injuries.  My background is wooden hydroplane construction, wood flooring, kitchen and bath renovations, airframe and power plant, residential electrical and plumbing, model RR curved benchwork.  Alas, no cabinet building.

Retired from all that and now managing company's group insurance programs.  

 

Well, in terms of throwing darts, my guess didn't hit the bullseye, but I didn't hit the wall either. You have some serious wood working chops, with all the tools to support that. By comparison, I'm a total hack when it comes to benchwork, but I cover it up fairly well.

Mike,

There is lots of good advice here but my suggestion is to build as strong as possible TO YOUR plan. Whether to use L Girder or open frame, use the build plan best for your layout. REMEMBER, you may have to crawl on the layout at some point in the future. I fell through a layout and it took six agonizing months of rehab and excruciating pain to recover. DO NOT make the mistake of saving a couple of bucks at the expense of strength. PLEASE !!!

Big_Boy_4005 posted:
Tom Tee posted:

Elliot,  sure, we can share nail/foot injuries.  My background is wooden hydroplane construction, wood flooring, kitchen and bath renovations, airframe and power plant, residential electrical and plumbing, model RR curved benchwork.  Alas, no cabinet building.

Retired from all that and now managing company's group insurance programs.  

 

Well, in terms of throwing darts, my guess didn't hit the bullseye, but I didn't hit the wall either. You have some serious wood working chops, with all the tools to support that. By comparison, I'm a total hack when it comes to benchwork, but I cover it up fairly well.

I’m a hack too!  As long as it is sturdy is all that matters!  I cover it up.

Well guys, I guess a lot of us are hacks here! LOL I think I am going to tray a leg set up kinda like Tom's where the support comes from the toe of the wall out to near the edge of the layout!

Carl, AKA Moonman brought up a good point, I don't have to go every 16" so I think I will put one in at every 32" Stud! but I still think I will go with either 5/8th" or 3/4" plywood! I think I will just buy 2 X6's and rip them into 2 x 3" for the supports as it is cheaper then a 2 x 4 x 8. Go figure!

rtr12 posted:

I always wanted one of those Shop Smiths! I was fascinated by them years ago after seeing a demo of one somewhere. Too old now, just stick with the much smaller stuff to work with these days.  Sounds like a good plan Mike, I'm sure you will get the new tool figured out and be up and running in no time.

When I worked at the hobby store in Denver back in the early 80's we sold Shop Smith. The boss was a wizard with that thing. Always giving demos in the basement, and we'd have to clean up his sawdust. They were kind of cool, but I like having all the different tools, and not having to change the setup.

Mike, I've had one plus the jointer attachment, separate band saw and vacuum for about 25 years now. Unfortunately, work kept me from using it to its full potential before I retired and now traveling and the hot summers are doing the same. It's a great piece of machinery, but does take some planning to use efficiently to minimize having to change the configuration too often. And you're right, there are plenty of videos to help you learn how to do things.

Tom, thanks for the information, I think I am going to stick with 1 x 4's with angle supports. I will put a ledger board all the way around the room as to have a nice level starting point!

ROO, that is very nice! I have never seen ducting like that before! Where would one get something like that?

We use that gray type duct for CAT5 Ethernet jumpers at the telecom company.  I should know what to call it, since I have specified it on too many work orders.  I guess it is because I just rely on copy and paste!    Nowadays, we use a lot more that is yellow and doesn't have rough edges for the fiber jumpers as they are far more prevalent.  It is certainly easy to add or pullout wires and fibers.  I would use it on a layout near a panel where I had a lot of wires, then in the outer reaches of the layout use a cable clamp with only one screw holding it in place so I could easily make changes.  My days of fishing wires in and out of closed holes while in precarious spots are done.  As a former coworker said to me once, "Mark, you always hurt yourself working.  I only hurt myself having fun!"    He was still riding motocross in the "senior division" when he left our company at about age 50.  

At work, we used to call it 'Panduit', but that is just a brand name of one type of this wire trough. Kind of like a 'Crescent' wrench. Not sure of the proper generic name either? Everyone knew what Panduit was, regardless of what actual brand it was. My employer used it in all their control panels to tidy up (hide the birds' nests) the wiring.

rtr12 posted:

At work, we used to call it 'Panduit', but that is just a brand name of one type of this wire trough. Kind of like a 'Crescent' wrench. Not sure of the proper generic name either? Everyone knew what Panduit was, regardless of what actual brand it was. My employer used it in all their control panels to tidy up (hide the birds' nests) the wiring.

Yes I agree, the stuff is known by Panduit no matter who makes it.  Just like Crescent wrench.  

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