"Black Hole" dead spot issue

Check the pickup rollers, make sure they are parallel to the bottom of the trucks, if they are skewed one way or the other that could be your problem.  Do you have volt/ohm meter?  If you do you can check to make sure you have power throughout both switches. 

Larry

Could be a roller spacing issue. If they both hit a spot where there is no center rail power at the same time (like with two head to head switches); bingo. Dead. Very common 3 rail track problem.

Rod

Without a rollover on it's side image we can't tell if the pick-up rollers are on dead spots or it has lost the common connection because of rubber tires and "ungrounded" rails.

PSAP2010

I checked the pickup wheels.  There are four of them.  Three have rollers that freely roll unabated.  The very front roller, the one nearest the cab, isn't rolling freely.  My guess is that it is scooting across the rail.  But the engine doesn't have any noticeable problems anywhere else on the track.

Rod Stewart

Great name by the way.  I'll check the distance on my other engines to see if they are closer together or further apart.  I'll especially check the BNSF engine since it is also an ES44AC.  But my question to that is why does the engine not stop and die at 8 miles per hour.  I can understand it compensating at 18 or 28 because the rollers are not on the dead spots long enough for the anomaly to take hold.  But 8? 

Thanks to both of you for your thoughts.  I'm going to look into the roller issue.  Even if it isn't causing this problem, scooting can't be good for it.

Bobby D.

Good point.  When I get back from Frankfort I'll run it, hope it duplicates, then ease it over so you can see the under carriage.

Thanks

Try this:

Wipe the pick-up rollers with WD-40. Wipe most of that off.

Spray WD-40 inside the rollers, and roll them.  Wipe any running excess off.

Spray WD-40 on any roller hinge or spring joints.  Flex those joints.  Wipe excess off. 

Spray WD-40 on the wheel bearings.  Just enough to get some in there.  Wipe any WD-40 off the wheel surfaces very well. 

Wipe some WD-40 on your track dead spot.  Wipe that off.  Then, wipe the track with Goo Gone.  Wipe that off.  The track will be slippery until the Goo Gone dries, or you wipe all of it off. 

WD-40 promotes excellent electrical conductivity.   This process worked wonders on my home layout.  I didn't want to "spray" WD-40 anywhere near my trains or layout.  So, instead of spraying it:  I put some in a syringe and applied it to all the above places using the syringe.  

Rick

Yardmaster96 posted:

PSAP2010

I checked the pickup wheels.  There are four of them.  Three have rollers that freely roll unabated.  The very front roller, the one nearest the cab, isn't rolling freely.  My guess is that it is scooting across the rail.  But the engine doesn't have any noticeable problems anywhere else on the track.

Rod Stewart

Great name by the way.  I'll check the distance on my other engines to see if they are closer together or further apart.  I'll especially check the BNSF engine since it is also an ES44AC.  But my question to that is why does the engine not stop and die at 8 miles per hour.  I can understand it compensating at 18 or 28 because the rollers are not on the dead spots long enough for the anomaly to take hold.  But 8? 

Thanks to both of you for your thoughts.  I'm going to look into the roller issue.  Even if it isn't causing this problem, scooting can't be good for it.

 

Rod, I had several MTH engines, both SD70ACes and ES44ACs, that had the twisted pickup roller problem going through 2 O72 Fastrack switches with the turnouts opposed.  It usually occurred most often when going slowly from the turnout on one into the turnout of the other one.  

Thanks for the comment on my forum name.  PSAP is the reporting mark for the Puget Sound & Pacific, the local railroad, and the year I joined the OGR Forum.   The PSAP is part of Genesee & Wyoming, so I see a lot of orange, yellow and black engines in downtown Shelton. 

Larry

Rod Stewart posted:

Could be a roller spacing issue. If they both hit a spot where there is no center rail power at the same time (like with two head to head switches); bingo. Dead. Very common 3 rail track problem.

Rod

Dead on. Pun intended. Also, you won’t see the dead spot at speed cause it happens so fast the engine doesn’t react fast enough to shut down. Can you try putting a small section or straight track between the switches? At least fix the roller that does not spin freely. Keep us posted. 

I am so glad I talked to you guys.  Ok, here is what I discovered just a few minutes ago.  I took the 2016 BNSF AC and set it on the track exactly where the UP AC sits when it isn't running.  I fired it up, 5 miles per hour, let it stroll out through the two switches in the same direction the UP goes, and it did just fine.  No dead spot issues.

Took the BNSF, off, turned it over, measured the distance between the farthest rear roller arm wheel and the front most roller arm wheel.  It came to 14 1/4 inches.

Did the same thing with the UP, it stopped, turned it over, took the photo I promised Bobby D, and measured.  14 1/2 inches.  The 2017 version has the rollers located in such a way that the back most and front most touch the switch in different places than the 2016.  If that's the case, then based on what Rod Stewart and Rod Miller are saying, this could be an issue.  I checked the distance between the two rollers on the DDA and it came to 12 3/8 inches.  The DDA only has two center rail rollers, both located at the front most portion of the truck assemblies.  The two ES44's have four center rail rollers, two on the front truck, two on the back.  It appears, going with the Rod's theory, since the two switches are back to back, when the 44 and the DD begin their travel from the parking track to the "yard track" as I call it, the rollers are set just right for a problem.  Somehow, even though its rollers span a wider area than the 2016 version, all of the power rollers are caught in a dead spot at that point.  Even though the 2016 versions rollers cover a quarter inch less space, a roller is maintaining contact with a live area long enough for the other rollers to make contact with one and keep the engine alive until it can finish navigating the switch and get onto live straight track.

I have no clue if any of what I just said has any plausible fact to it, but the only thing I take from everything I just typed is this?

Why the heck is Lionel allowing track pieces to be designed with dead spots?  My feeling is that when you connect a track piece to another track piece, the electricity should flow from one rail to another seamlessly.  If there are internal wires or connections that block the flow of electricity from one center rail through the other to the next track piece, then find it, fix it, and eliminate it.  Meanwhile I have a $465 engine that I have to allow for a kink in the design of a track piece to run it.  Looks like parking track five will have to become the BNSF parking track, and parking track one will have to become the UP parking track to make peace with this.  I'll have to experiment and see where I can slowly exit and enter with the UP engine without the evil of dead spots.

If anyone else has a theory, suggestion or solution, I'm all ears.  I paid way too much for all this stuff to have quirks in the machine that the manufacturer can eliminate if they will just quit trying to save a buck and do it.  If the dead spots are my fault, then please, offer up any suggestions for me to eliminate them.  Adding a 1 3/8 piece between the two tracks might just do it, but understand, that means finding a 1 3/8 piece to eliminate at some other point.  Keep in mind, I do have a complete set of 3 ovals hooked together by switch tracks and making that happen required creative spacing problems and to fix them.

I'll let you know how it all works out.

You have to have dead spots, or you could have one roller on a ground rail and the other on the center rail. Then you would also have a dead $465 engine to match the dead spot.

So the dead spots are on purpose?  Good to know...I guess.  The roller wheels aren't adjustable, or don't appear to be.  The dead spots are built in.  So adding track to increase the distance or 8 plus miles per hour to compensate are my only options?

Yardmaster, I can think of at least two other options.  First, can the roller pickup arms, or if necessary, the whole truck block from the BNSF be installed on the new UP loco?  If you could get these parts from MTH, this would get you back to the workable spacing of 14 1/4".  Second, you could try another brand of switch like Atlas O or Ross.  Perhaps the "dead spots" on other brands of switches are spaced differently.

Many recent Lionel locos have at least three, and sometimes four rollers.  Recent steam switchers have a power conductor (wire tether) between the loco & tender.  Lionel learned their lesson and doesn't take this for granted!

There are other threads on this forum that discuss adding extra rollers to the tenders on MTH steam locos.  In complex operating environments, two rollers just isn't enough.  The problem was exacerbated with a move to PS3 because apparently PS3 locos don't coast at all if power is lost.  This is also discussed in other threads on the forum.  MTH needs to get the message that using fewer rollers isn't a smart way to cut costs.

A third option would be to add a pickup to a boxcar, or "dummy unit" and a tether back to the loco.  You would always have the boxcar or dummy coupled behind the loco to ensure a constant flow of power.  Frustrating, I'm sure.  My $.02.

Just to know if the common is being lost, does the UP have the traction tires on the same side for both trucks? The trucks are sitting where the control rails for non-derail are located, but it would require that the traction tires are on opposite sides.

In the photo, it's the short curved rail on the left rear and the short straight rail on the front right.

Going a little faster is one option - investigating replacing the single collectors with a double collector would be another solution if it's the center rail issue.

Without knowing/seeing the underbody side by side we don't know the rubber tire/steel wheel issue.

Not having any of these switches, it looks to me your UP example has one entire side of each truck on dead rails. When you add in the center axles are not flanged so we don't know what type of contact they are making and another axle has rubber tires you are left with only 2 wheels, one on each truck, to complete the circuit. 

An easy 😂 way (guess that should read "another":-) to see if it is the rollers would be remove the shell and add a jumper wire between the center rail and the loco positive. 

Back to back switches are always a crap shoot because of so many dead rails built in to avoid shorts when changing routes and the auto switching feature when coming in from the legs.

Check all 4 roller pickups on eng  for power. If one is dead this will cause your problem. I have found the power wire to the pickup disconnected on engs that I have worked on.

Just woke up.  Thought I'd check my replies.  Great stuff.  I read every one of them in detail.

Bob - I'm a greenhorn when it comes to the maintenance.  How to I add power to the loco in such a  way as to turn it over and look at the bottom of the loco?  Power is generated through the track as it sits on the wheels.  Again, greenhorn.

Bobby - All good stuff.  I will look at the trucks again this morning to see exactly which wheels have rubber traction tires and let you know.

For everyone's updated information.  This particular MTH loco has four pickup wheel assemblies.  Two on each truck.  As mentioned before, the 2016 model has a 14 1/4 back to front spacing, where the 2017, the one in question, has a 14 1/2 which seems to be the issue when a back to back attachment is confronted.  I learned last night a very important lesson about switch track in that dead spots are not only "dead spots", meaning spoken in gest, but real.  They are built in for safety to keep the engines from being fried.  One reply from last night mentioned MTH lack of coasting ability.  You're exactly right on that.  They don't.  When that engine reaches the "dead zone", it stops immediately, and the obvious lack of power input shuts down any PS3 cool engine sounds on demand.  So no, they don't coast.  They do hiccup.  I ran UP over the suspect zone last night at 8 smph, and as soon as that sweet spot hit the dead spot it "twitched" but kept going.  9 smph it never missed a beat.  I don't know if the truck assemblies are interchangeable but I'll investigate it.  Both engines are 19 1/2 long but when you match them toe to toe you can see that the pickup wheels have been reconfigured.

One last thing that may throw a wrench in this or help, I hope for the best in all cases.  The two back to back switches are Remote, not Remote/Command.  Why do I care?  I have four Remote/Command right hand switches that make up a "snake" system that lets the trains exit from the outer most track to the inner most track.  From outer to inner, all four switches are interconnected, no 1 3/8 or 1 3/4 bridge track separating them.  I ran the UP through one way at 9 and it did fine.  I backed it through the other way at 5 and it did fine.  On the opposite side of the room, I have just the standard Remote switches, no programming possible.  I ran it through one way at 9, did fine, but at 5, as it reached the mid point between the outer track and track 2, it stopped between the two switches at the exact same spot it stops in the picture I sent.  What was so cool about it is that I said, "NOW" just a split second before it stopped.  You can set your watch by this phenomenon.

I have an answer to the question regarding the rubber tires.  As you look at the bottom of the engine from cab to rear, I am numbering the wheels from 1-12.  In this case, on both the 2017 and 2016 versions, wheels 5 and 6 on the front truck and 11 and 12 on the rear truck have rubber tires.  3 and 4, 9 and 10 are those special kind of solid wheels used for.....tracking?   Honestly folks I don't know what they are used for, it doesn't appear to be electrical pickup.  But other than those four oddball wheels, the rest are the typical cupped metal wheels designed to imitate what we see on trains today. 

Those flat wheels allow sharper curves without derailing.

John H posted:

Those flat wheels allow sharper curves without derailing.

That's the problem with those, since they have to clear the rails while sliding crossing over the top of them they can't be counted on to make reliable contact. A flanged wheel center axle with lateral movement seems better.