Bluetooth Connectivity - Random Drops

Shaun....I had Blue Tooth issues with distance this past week when I ran on the Trackers' layout which was about 12x40.......only solution.....I followed my train around and got about 4000 steps/hr.....

......both with my Niagara and my NYC 4-6-6T......and no issues if I followed then around.....

Peter

Peter - Thanks for the unfortunate confirmation of an issue with Bluetooth.  I'll keep experimenting as it has dropped from less than 10' away and then had trouble picking it back up.  It does have a nice default response in crew chatter when the connection is dropped though!

I've pretty much abandoned BT for train control, I won't buy anything that doesn't have a real command option, Legacy/TMCC or DCS.  My layout is only 12 x 24 with a yard extension, but I can't reliably run a BT equipped engine using a phone or the universal remote around the whole layout if I stand at one end.  To me, that's absurd and detracts from the whole idea of command/control!

If I have to follow the engine around, why not just run a wire to it?

FWIW, I'm sure part of the issue is the location of the BT boards in diecast steamers, they're inside the diecast shell.  The antenna is part of the little BT board, so how do they expect decent range with that design?

1. Just curious as to whether there are devices on the market like repeaters or boosters that will amplify or boost the BT signal and effectively extend its range. 

2. Also, will having a wi-fi signal present in the same area create interference with the BT signal ?

@Richie C. posted:

1. Just curious as to whether there are devices on the market like repeaters or boosters that will amplify or boost the BT signal and effectively extend its range.

How To Increase Bluetooth Range

2. Also, will having a wi-fi signal present in the same area create interference with the BT signal ?

Yes, having WiFi at 2.4thz can affect the BT, as well as anything else in the 2.4ghz frequency band.  In theory, the frequency hopping design of BT will minimize that interference.  Also, some newer BT devices actually identify problem frequencies in their operating band and block them out to minimize the issue.

@Richie C. posted:

1. Just curious as to whether there are devices on the market like repeaters or boosters that will amplify or boost the BT signal and effectively extend its range.

2. Also, will having a wi-fi signal present in the same area create interference with the BT signal ?

Richie,

1.) You're likely to have the same problem with a repeater.  (Follow me with this one; my analysis is odd).  When in the process of moving around the layout, if you get too far away from it you'll lose your connection with it, hence your connection to the locomotive through it. The problem is movement.  The repeater would have to follow you around the room, or follow the train around the layout, always keeping a point midway between you and the loco in order to get maximum range.

Now, you could use a repeater whose output signal is much larger than the one put out by your remote, but Bluetooth isn't meant to work this way.  Most often the problem is fixed by improving the sensitivity of the receiver, which in this case as @gunrunnerjohn has pointed out, is inside a die-cast locomotive shell shielding its transmission.

2.) WiFi and Bluetooth are used simultaneously very, very, very frequently with most smartphones.  Not a problem, or we would be hearing of billions of people (literally) complaining about it.

Mike

Our engines have had BLE4.0, which has been limited to 20 - 30 ft range. Legacy engines in 2021C2 and beyond, we've upgraded to BLE5.0, which will have 100+ ft range.

Another significant issue is the version of BT used by Lionel.  I think it's one of the shorter range versions at lower power outputs.  I'm pretty sure that Lionel isn't using Class 1 Bluetooth.  Given the fact that the antenna in most steamers is in a sub-optimal location, it's not hard to see why we have range issues.

I see Dave Olson was typing at the same time.   It'll be interesting to see how much better the new engine do.  I wonder if there'll be a new Universal Remote with the newer BT as well.

@Dave Olson posted:

Our engines have had BLE4.0, which has been limited to 20 - 30 ft range. Legacy engines in 2021C2 and beyond, we've upgraded to BLE5.0, which will have 100+ ft range.

Any estimate for the fix for the Andorid App?  Version 2.6.25 dated Dec 1, 2021 finds and initially connects just fine but as soon as you get back to the main page and try to do anything it drops, over and over again.  Apple app & Orange remote works fine.  I personally tried 2 different phones, and 1 Android tablet - all exact same issue.

I'm a service center and multiple engines have came in for repair, but I end up explaining its the LionChief App not the engine that is the issue.

Jim

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I see Dave Olson was typing at the same time.   It'll be interesting to see how much better the new engine do.  I wonder if there'll be a new Universal Remote with the newer BT as well.

Hopefully there is a definite improvement.   My legacy Rutland 4-6-0 won't stay connected sitting 3 feet away from me for longer than 2 minutes.....usually more like 30 seconds lol

I've pretty much given up on BT here, it's so spotty that I can't depend on it.  I wish Lionel had gone with a WiFi system, much better range.

I agree with John.  Its spotty at best and also engine dependent.  My B6 will stay connected to blue tooth around my layout.  My s1 gets half way and disconnects.  I have not tried my camelback yet with bluetooth.

My two LC+ 2.0 0-6-0T Docksiders have about a 6-8 foot range from the Universal remote and not much better from my new Galaxy S21 G5 phone.  The Reading T1 range sucks and sometimes won't even connect!  The two new 10-wheelers I can control all over if I stand in the center, so it that's a range of about 15 feet or so.

None of this is really satisfactory performance, so I have abandoned BT for the foreseeable future.

The latest version of bluetooth is supposed to have better range and higher data capacity. Not sure what version Lionel is using. I have tested aftermarket bluetooth systems and found good range, in some cases over 75 feet. Bluetooth setups I have tested include printed circuit board antennas and external antennas which provide greater range.  The Wi-Fi based systems I have tested perform virtually identical to the bluetooth systems.

@BOB WALKER posted:

The latest version of bluetooth is supposed to have better range and higher data capacity. Not sure what version Lionel is using. I have tested aftermarket bluetooth systems and found good range, in some cases over 75 feet. Bluetooth setups I have tested include printed circuit board antennas and external antennas which provide greater range.  The Wi-Fi based systems I have tested perform virtually identical to the bluetooth systems.

The version doesn't matter, it's the class of power output of the device.

For Example:

A Bluetooth 2.1 device with Class 1 power output will easily reach 100 feet in line of sight conditions
A Bluetooth 5.0 device with Class 3 power will connect to something about 5 to 10 feet away at best.

Data throughput doesn't matter either, the amount data that is being transmitted over this Bluetooth connection doesn't exceed the throughput of 1990's computer modem. I'd sacrifice throughput for range in heartbeat.

As for WiFi vs Bluetooth Range, Bluetooth was never designed nor wants to compete with WiFi when it comes to "going the distance".  My home router with stock internal antennas easily makes 300 feet through walls with excellent signal quality, I've never achieved that range with Bluetooth even in Line of Sight conditions. I have literally run my trains from my neighbors house and watched them on my camera system, no way am I pulling that off with Bluetooth.

Lionel filed a bunch of changes with the FCC the past couple of years and it looks like some of these are due to parts obsolescence on some devices and "Better Performance" upgrades to others.  I suspect they are upping the power output on future Bluetooth products for better range but unfortunately for any of our older Bluetooth equipped engines up to now, we are stuck with less than favorable range.  I suspect another version of the Universal Remote will have to be designed to accommodate the upgraded power that Lionel wants to achieve.

Dave - will their be an upgrade for locomotives to move from BLE4.0 to BLE5.0?

I have a new legacy with whistle steam. Since there are no legacy  controllers available I figured I would just use the LC App. Well that was a bust unless I kept within about three to four feet from the loco. I bought a universal remote and it works fine from anywhere. I'm pretty sure my tablet and phone use low power Bluetooth to conserve battery. They all try to get bragging rights for using the least amount of battery per day.

@Shaun posted:

Dave - will their be an upgrade for locomotives to move from BLE4.0 to BLE5.0?

That would be a shock!  Given the fact that the design is evolving for the main boards, I suspect it's not all that likely.