Bluetooth in 3 Rail

Hi Guys, this is awesome to see so much interest and discussion about using battery wireless controls in O scale. The lengthy discussion also provides some good marketing insight on who would use a battery wireless system.  As a newcomer to O scale with 20 years of supporting the G scale market I believe there will be room for a few US company's that are introducing solutions.  One of our goals is to attract the younger modeler , 14+ into our hobby. Most of my O scale customers invested into 2R Brass. Now I am seeing the 3R and plastic 2R locos. Same complaint, do not want to clean track anymore or run a lot of wires.

We are taking what we have learned in the G scale market and applying that to the smaller scales. I have been testing our Bluetooth version on a Android Motorola e-Moto phone I bought for $50 at Radio Shack. I like using the phone rather than the larger tablet. The phone was easier to hold and operate.  More info in future posting.

Don

Bob Delbridge posted:

I'll volunteer to be the test bed for one of these boards from BlueRail if they want   I have a Weaver RS3 that's just got a Pittman dc motor in it.  All I'd need is a battery and the "App" for my iPad.

All they have to do is contact me for shipping data

Ha-ha, you and me both - I've got two mth fp45s waiting for it. 

Jacobpaul81 posted:

Bob Delbridge posted:

I'll volunteer to be the test bed for one of these boards from BlueRail if they want   I have a Weaver RS3 that's just got a Pittman dc motor in it.  All I'd need is a battery and the "App" for my iPad.

All they have to do is contact me for shipping data

Ha-ha, you and me both - I've got two mth fp45s waiting for it. 

Seriously, I'd like to add my name to list, but I'd need an Android version of the app. 

Take care, Joe

Well Id volunteer to, in a flash! but I understand they should be available this month, Im holding my breath in anticipation, all the way down under in Aussie Land.    cTr...( Choose the Right )

Received an email from Bluerail Trains the other day, they should be coming out with their 1st board mid-February.  It'll be a 2amp board, hopefully they'll do a larger amp board for O-scale, although I believe a 2amp board will run the current battery-powered engines I have now.

I also downloaded the Bachmann (Bluerail?) E-Z App to my iPad Air.  It's got a nice sounding whistle that emits the sound from the iPad but the bell doesn't do anything.  Don't know if that'll come from the iPad once I assign an engine or if the engine has to have the sound (I'm guessing once the engine is loaded the sound will come from the iPad).

With the ability to use an XBox 360-style controller to give some "feel" to running a train, this may be a cool thing to try out.

Hi Folks,

Very much looking forward to the first BlueRail Bluetooth boards!!!  Hope the Android version is out soon (I'll accept an early Android version just to get the ball rolling).  2 amps is more than enough for several of my projects.   Also, the ability to script behaviors, like station stops and movement to sound effects or music,  makes it really wonderful!

This will, once and for all, put an end to all the Bluetooth-bashing and misinformation!

Take care, Joe.

The board is 28x58mm, pretty small and should fit in a lot of engines.

The battery size is always the issue for those going battery-powered, the NiMh packs I use are approx 1x1x5 inches, the LiPo packs are a bit smaller.  Of course you have to be able to charge them which requires access to the battery or a charging jack.  I saw a round charging jack mounted on the rear wall of the tender and was very inconspicuous and easy to get to.

It will also require an on/off switch.

Of course you could always charge from a piece of track that was setup with power.

Hi Bob,

I won't be using a battery for my initial projects but rather track power, however battery is a great option -- so easy with this board!  

Take care, Joe.

Even real trains are going battery power!!!!           http://www.theengineer.co.uk/b...rain-enters-service/         cTr...( Choose the Right )

There's a lot of potential here.   Once they figure out a way to integrate it into the DCC sound system and control system (which shouldn't be too terribly difficult) we've got the makings of a real change-maker.   Right now you're limited to the sound and controls that BlueRail provides.   If they can find a way to easily tap into DCC.... things just got interesting.  

IMO it will take another big-time vendor beyond Bachmann to really get it to take off.   I think we might be a year or so out from that happening if it happens at all.  If it does, it could truly change the way people think about, and run, trains of any scale.   

Lots of "ifs" in case you didn't notice 

Joe Rampolla posted:

Hi Folks,

Very much looking forward to the first BlueRail Bluetooth boards!!!  Hope the Android version is out soon (I'll accept an early Android version just to get the ball rolling).  2 amps is more than enough for several of my projects.   Also, the ability to script behaviors, like station stops and movement to sound effects or music,  makes it really wonderful!

This will, once and for all, put an end to all the Bluetooth-bashing and misinformation!

Take care, Joe.

What kinda Amps should be required for my engines with dual can motors?   Will the 2amps be substantial enough, or are we talking single can motor ?

Bob Delbridge posted:

The board is 28x58mm, pretty small and should fit in a lot of engines.

The battery size is always the issue for those going battery-powered, the NiMh packs I use are approx 1x1x5 inches, the LiPo packs are a bit smaller.  Of course you have to be able to charge them which requires access to the battery or a charging jack.  I saw a round charging jack mounted on the rear wall of the tender and was very inconspicuous and easy to get to.

It will also require an on/off switch.

Of course you could always charge from a piece of track that was setup with power.

What kind of power requirements are you finding with your battery power.  I wanna start planning for my locomotive surgery. 

Jacobpaul81 posted:

What kinda Amps should be required for my engines with dual can motors?   Will the 2amps be substantial enough, or are we talking single can motor ?

2A is not enough for dual motors.  You have to have a board rated at more than the stall current of the motors, I found that out with the 4 amp ERR Cruise Commander Lite.  My Interurban hung on a switch and smoked the drivers!  Remember, that's going to be a maximum rating, this will be suitable for really small O-gauge stuff, but nothing that has much of a load.

Jacobpaul81 posted:

Joe Rampolla posted:

Hi Folks,

Very much looking forward to the first BlueRail Bluetooth boards!!!  Hope the Android version is out soon (I'll accept an early Android version just to get the ball rolling).  2 amps is more than enough for several of my projects.   Also, the ability to script behaviors, like station stops and movement to sound effects or music,  makes it really wonderful!

This will, once and for all, put an end to all the Bluetooth-bashing and misinformation!

Take care, Joe.

What kinda Amps should be required for my engines with dual can motors?   Will the 2amps be substantial enough, or are we talking single can motor ?

Hi JacobPaul,

   You would have to test the stall current of each motor, so perhaps you might be fortunate and be under the 2 amp limit for the 2 combined.  Here is a video on testing the stall current.

 BlueRail said they would have instructions when the boards are available, so I am sure you could ask them.

Take care, Joe. 

Jacobpaul81 posted:

Bob Delbridge posted:

The board is 28x58mm, pretty small and should fit in a lot of engines.

The battery size is always the issue for those going battery-powered, the NiMh packs I use are approx 1x1x5 inches, the LiPo packs are a bit smaller.  Of course you have to be able to charge them which requires access to the battery or a charging jack.  I saw a round charging jack mounted on the rear wall of the tender and was very inconspicuous and easy to get to.

It will also require an on/off switch.

Of course you could always charge from a piece of track that was setup with power.

What kind of power requirements are you finding with your battery power.  I wanna start planning for my locomotive surgery. 

When I was still running DCS and TMCC/Legacy, I measured the current on all my engines, steam and diesel.  All were under 1 amp, except my Williams brass 4-8-4 J which measured 1.75 amps pulling a 5-car train.  The Js motor had a bent shaft and I replaced the motor but didn't re-measure.

I haven't measured any of the steamers (single motor) since I switched to battery power, but so far I've been using either a 9.6volt 2200Mah NiMh or 11.1volt 2000Mah LiPo battery pack and have had no problems.

Here's my "Disclaimer" before anyone jumps...I only have the DC can motor, headlight, backup light consuming power from the battery pack, no smoke, or sound (well, I did install a MyLocoSound sound package in a Railking 2-8-0 and it worked fine).  I don't use smoke, removed the units when I was running command control.

I will say this, the Williams brass J weighs 14 pounds.  I have pulled a dozen passenger cars with it and had no problems.  I usually run a 5-car passenger train and at 2lbs each, that's 24 total pounds being pulled using a 11.1volt 200Mah LiPo battery pack.  I normally get over 2 hours run time before recharging.  Remember, the engine is the only thing using power from the battery pack.  I currently have no lights in any of the passenger cars (and no wiring to the layout), passenger car lighting could be done using a battery pack/LED system, or could even be powered thru the rails.  If I had kept my 3-rail system I could have powered the lights in the passenger cars easily, but with 2-rails (I pulled the middle rail out) I would need to isolate the wheels in order to use track power for lighting.

 The RCS system I'm using has polyswitches built in to cutoff power if current is too high.

When I first started this everyone was saying it couldn't be done.  I went ahead anyway and converted one of my RailKing 2-8-0s and have not looked back.  Every day I read the problems folks are having with command control signals, wiring, losing comms with their engines, etc, etc, and know I made the right choice for myself (and I was not having any real issues with command control).

I sometimes miss having the steam chuff, bell, and whistle, but I feel that'll soon be OBE (overcome by events).  I can't wait for BlueRail trains (even MRC has their Genie system on their site) to offer a board for O scale with enough amperage to suit everyone's wants.  I think 2amps will do for a lot of small engines and uses (like my Railking Imperial 0-6-0, used for switching), but 3-6 amps would cover everything I can think of.  The RCS system I'm using is a 3amp setup, using the Deltang Rx65 receiver/ESC combo board.

I think I'll watch the video Joe posted and give that a try.

I hope this helps, if not post again and I'll give it another try!

Bob Delbridge posted:

When I was still running DCS and TMCC/Legacy, I measured the current on all my engines, steam and diesel.  All were under 1 amp, except my Williams brass 4-8-4 J which measured 1.75 amps pulling a 5-car train.  The Js motor had a bent shaft and I replaced the motor but didn't re-measure.

Did you test the stall current on those engines?  I can assure you that most of those engines will have a single motor stall current far in excess of two amps, especially the Pittman motor in that brass one!  It's not only a question of being able to run, it's a question of surviving mishaps on the layout as well.  For instance, the stall current of the Mabuchi RS-365SH, a commonly used motor in many O-gauge engines, is 5.2 amps.

Remember, BlueRail says they will be making boards for situations above 2 amps.  It is just their first offering that is sized for HO locomotives for the most part.  If I read them correctly, they will also have an AC O gauge option later.  So if this first board doesn't quite fit, others will be hopefully be on the way.  If you can find a spec sheet for your motor, it will list the stall current.  For example, the motor in K-Line Porter has a stall current of less than 0.5 amps, in line with what the specs indicate.  Or you can easily test it yourself. 

http://www.mabuchi-motor.co.jp...gi?CAT_ID=fk_130rhsh

And these Bluetooth boards can be used for either track power or on-board battery power, and, if I remember correctly, Dave Rees said that battery back-up for dirty track was also an option.

A lot to look forward to!

Take care, Joe.

Seems like I did on the Pittman John, can't recall.  I do have it in a box so maybe I'll break out the meter and give it a go.

As far as mishaps go, I've had a couple of derailments since converting (forgot to throw some switches or didn't have all the wheels on the track) and had one engine push into another, but no tripping of the polyswitches.  I don't run my trains unattended so if anything does happen I can (hopefully) shut them down quickly just to be safe, same as any other system.

I guess the thing is (1) these polyswitches are suppose to kick off at 3 amps and (2) we're suppose to not have any derailments or blockages that would halt the train while it's still running.  I'm willing to put some faith into the system working as it should, when it doesn't I might have to buy a new part or 2.

I'm sure there's a handful of layouts that would test even the most robust system, but so far (running BPRC since May of 2015) I'm pleased with what I've experienced.  You can treat this like a NASA project and over-engineer it, or you can approach it like the Russian space program does and get spaceships off the ground.  Both have had mishaps and it shows nothing is fail-safe.

When someone offers a system with a higher current rating, I'll take a look and, depending on the cost, may get in on it.  The guys at BlueRail Trains are seriously looking into what it would take for O scale and hopefully we'll see something from them soon.

I'll be waiting for the higher current board.  Although I have not killed any more CC-Lite boards, I use a 1.1A PolyFuse in series with the motors on any CC-Lite install.  A PolyFuse rated at 3A will not kick off until a significantly higher current in time to save anything, so I'd revisit your specifications.

I wasn't trying to test the robustness of the system when I had the flameout, it just happened.

I probably got the polyfuse rating wrong as I was just going by the rating for the board.

I do have some spares though, is it stamped on the fuse?

The ones I have have this printed on:

Overlapping XX (symbol?) followed by U250 ZCFA

According to what Tony Walsham (RCS owner) told me a while back it is a 3amp polyfuse.

There is usually a part number on a PolyFuse, but you have to cross-reference it to find the actual ratings.

Here's the latest email from BlueRail:

Hello from BlueRail Trains.

Manufacturing has begun on the first BlueRail boards. This involves 2 weeks of PCB manufacturing followed by 3 weeks of assembly. The boards are being manufactured locally and when completed will be available for US and Canada shipments on the BlueRail site for $75 (plus tax and shipping). We will send a separate email out soon with information to those of you living outside US/Canada.

Next week we will send out some more comprehensive information about the first board to help you decide if it will suit your needs. We will also provide you with a link that will allow you to indicate if you are interested in purchasing the first board, as well as related harness and battery-connection options you may also be interested in. This will help us plan for release.

Look forward to more details next week.

David Rees
BlueRail Trains

I expect it'll be the 2amp for HO, but I've been pinging on them for more amperage for O scale and for the battery connections.

I had to remove the front truck from my recently acquired Atlas F3 so I could cut the front coupler pocket off in order to mount the Kadee-style Atlas coupler and forgot how much of a PITA it was getting the wiring back together for the middle rollers.  Looking at the electronics inside the F3 I was thinking how easy it would be to fit the BPRC system I'm now using inside.  But for now I'll keep the TMCC guts, the sound is very nice (diesel rumble, horn, bell).

Don't know why copying the email made it so wide that you have to scroll the screen

Hi Folks,

BlueRail Trains has a new page about their first Bluetooth board:

Take care, Joe.

If you have a motor with more than 2 amps stall current, this one is not for you.  Even the small set motors will exceed that, so other than really small stuff like the K-Line Plymouth switcher or perhaps a speeder, this one is not really for O-gauge.  Of course, it also runs on DC only...

I got the email too Joe, I'm going to measure the stall current tomorrow on my 8 BPRC steamers and a WBB E7 (2 motors) and see what I get.

Im not concerned with the steamers as much as I am about the 2-motored diesels, which all of mine are except my 3rd Rail E7.

The board is 28x59mm and should fit in most O-scale engines, but the 2amp max will kill it before it gets off the ground I'm afraid.  Will know once the stall tests are done.

Increasing the boards current rating will also increase the size and the cost IMO, but if all we need is a board and the free App then that's going to be cool.

Of course to go BPRC you'll also need a battery, on/off/charging jack, a charger, an and iPad or something similar.  For sound, not sure.  Maybe a Bluetooth/wifi speaker with enough power to overcome the noise of the trains and track, along with the sounds themselves.  All I would want is steam chuff/diesel rumble, bell/horn, and whistle.

Then there's the lights, but LEDs are only a few bucks for a couple of lights.

Been talking to David at Bluerail and perhaps he will soon be among the sponsors here!!

Alan

Looking over the information that had been linked, something worth noting is that "2 amps' is incorrect.  the information states that the board will only continuously supply 1.2 amps.  it has built in circuit protection that may just allow it to work with smaller O-Gauge motors with no problems, as the circuit protection will just shut off the board in the event the motor stalls and draws excessive current.  

The information says the following on the board's current output before it shuts down:  

1.2 Amps - Continuous.
1.25 Amps - 1 minute.
2 Amps - 15 seconds
4 Amps 1 second
8 Amps 0.4 seconds

So if in normal operation your engine is only drawing an amp, the board might just work just as it is. 

If it turns out that 1.2 Amps is not enough, and it probably isn't for most motors in O gauge, it still does not seem like it would be particularly complex to build an add on board with a couple of FETs that would allow for higher current. I expect the bluetooth board outputs the motor control in typical H-Bridge fashion, with one motor wire receiving full(12VDC?) power, and the other a PWM ground side signal.  While not as simple as having a direct output pin on the board for each of the 4 semiconductors (transistor/fet/triac/etc.) in the H-Bridge, it still doesn't seem like it would be overly complex to design a circuit that can read the output for the motor and push that signal through beefier parts to handle more current. I'd have to stick a meter/scope on the board's output to see exactly what's there before doing too much, but as long as there is enough room for an additional board about the size of a DCDR board, there is no reason you couldn't make this work for a 15 amp motor drive.  

JGL

When I measured the "operating" current of my steam engines (when they were still 3-rail) only 1 of them was over 1amp, most were around .75amp.  Not sure what the 2-motored diesels were.  I have since replaced the motor that drew over 1amp with a better motor.

The system I currently use is rated at 3amps and has worked fine since last May.

I'm really surprised, I would have thought they would have started with the largest scale first and moved down, instead of starting with HO/N, but I guess they figured if they could get it working in the smaller scales the larger scales would be easy.

I wonder when their own App will be available?

I hope the slow-speed control is good enough, I noticed they're saying minimum voltage is 9 volts.  Is that the minimum the board takes to operate, will a 9.6v battery be enough?

I'm sure smoke units draw a lot of current, but I guess more 3-railers use smoke than 2-railers (do any 2-railers use smoke?).

For me, I'd rather have a nice speaker mounted under the smoke stack with the sound coming out of it instead of a current-hungry smoke unit.

One thing I see is a 9-pin tether will be required, are there any readily available or will the modeler need to make them up on his own?  Not a problem for some, but finding the parts may be.

I know this is not for everybody, but from what I've seen so far it's a lot easier than your average DCC.  Once it takes off hopefully we'll see manufacturers offering engines that let YOU choose which system board you want to use, as they have in DCC, but without the reams of operating instructions.  Best of all, you can have a layout without ANY wires going to it if you want, or expensive power supplies that can weld things together in a flash.

If you look at their stall test and to it on a single Mabuci RS-365 motor, you'll find it easily exceeds the 2 amps they specify as maximum for the stall current test. A two motored locomotive will surely top that easily. FWIW, in my initial testing of the ERR Cruise Commander Lite, which is rated at 5 amps, my Interurban test engine stalled hooked on a switch. Before I realized what happened, it has smoked the board.

Bob Delbridge posted:

I'm sure smoke units draw a lot of current, but I guess more 3-railers use smoke than 2-railers (do any 2-railers use smoke?).

For me, I'd rather have a nice speaker mounted under the smoke stack with the sound coming out of it instead of a current-hungry smoke unit.

 Well, I've done a number of upgrades for two different 2-rail folks, and they've both used smoke.  I'd have to say that the answer to that question is yes.   As far as the speaker, if that starts smoking, you have a whole different issue!  If it doesn't smoke, it doesn't exactly provide the same effect, right?

John, what someone needs to do is combine the smoke unit with a speaker

I can do that for a one time shot, usually only lasts a second or so.

Bob Delbridge posted:

Im not concerned with the steamers as much as I am about the 2-motored diesels, which all of mine are except my 3rd Rail E7.

The board is 28x59mm and should fit in most O-scale engines, but the 2amp max will kill it before it gets off the ground I'm afraid.  Will know once the stall tests are done.

Increasing the boards current rating will also increase the size and the cost IMO, but if all we need is a board and the free App then that's going to be cool.

Of course to go BPRC you'll also need a battery, on/off/charging jack, a charger, an and iPad or something similar.  For sound, not sure.  Maybe a Bluetooth/wifi speaker with enough power to overcome the noise of the trains and track, along with the sounds themselves.  All I would want is steam chuff/diesel rumble, bell/horn, and whistle.

Then there's the lights, but LEDs are only a few bucks for a couple of lights.

I've gotta wait til there's something that can handle 2-motor diesels.  That said 28 mm x 59 mm is tiny.  Size of my thumb.

I can't imagine sound will be all that difficult to achieve. You are already using bluetooth for control. Why not for sound?  It'd only work with one train at a time (per device) but most locomotives already have the speaker - so it's a matter of transmitting sound to the loco and broadcasting it through the speaker.  You'd need a bluetooth amplifier with a volume pot.   A 3-6w bluetooth amplifier board can be had for $5-15.  Or, you could just wire up a sound system to your trainroom and add bluetooth to that. 

Most of the talk here has been about small engines and such. anyone thought about accessory control ? I bet you already have plans on the drawing board Joe.

It might be worth getting an HO board for an accessory just to see what the production unit does....

Here's another You Tube I spotted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jH_oou_0NH8

Thanks Bob, this is a good update by Bluerail 16 khz is the most desirable motor frequency.     cTr.... (Choose the right)

I was reading the specs on the up coming Bluerail boards, I was saddened to find that they can really only handle 1.2 amps continuously, thats borderline for most of the motors Im using. Im not sure what there HO boards are rated at, in the Bachmann ready to run offerings.    cTr...(Choose the Right)

Clearly, the perceive the large market as HO, that's clearly where this board is targeted.  There's talk of a larger board with more capacity, I'll wait for that one.

I'm sure it's just a matter of time, after all, Bachmann has all the Williams by Bachmann stuff, that needs to be upgraded anyway.  Why not do it right with Bluetooth.

Here are the details of the up comming two amp board. Id be interested on others thoughts. I think from memory an 8000 series Pittman motor with rare earth magnets stalls at about 2.2 amps( Tested this one 3 amp stall ) and will run under normal load around 1 amp. I realise that for a lot of you in three rail this board wont cut it. It might just get by, with no smoke and an efficant can motor.  The two motored diesls ????                                                                                                         

 * Overload Protection: The BlueRail board contains circuitry to protect itself in the event of a current draw overload. Please refer to the graph. The red line indicates the point at which the BlueRail board shuts itself off. The board will tolerate an 8 amp draw for .4 sec (before shutting itself off). It will tolerate a 4 amp draw for 1 second, a 2 amp draw for 15 sec (continuous), a 1.25 amp draw for 1 min (continuous) and a 1.2 amp draw continuously. A locomotive with a 2 amp stall current (green line) will typically draw 2 amps of current for the first few seconds it starts to roll, before stabilizing at a much lower current draw. Pulling heavy loads up steep long hills and lots of lighting will increase current draw. Please consider these values when deciding if this board is appropriate for your locomotive and layout.              cTr...(Choose the Right)

Stephen,

The RCS of Australia (do you live near Tony Walsham?)/Deltang units I have are 3amp, no issues yet.  I measured the current on my engines when they were still 3-rail (PS2 or TMCC), before I converted to BPRC, and all were under 1amp, except the Williams brass J and that was 1.3amp (the motor had a bent shaft I found out later).

Under BPRC I'm only powering the can motor, headlight, and backup light (I had temporarily had sound in 1 loco).  Del Tapparo of G Scale Graphics (sells MyLocoSound) said the unit draws very little current.

I would say that the 2 amp board would probably work in my steam engines, but not enough to convince me to buy 1 at this time.  I think 3-6 amps would be the range for O scale.  Deltang sells a daughter board that doubles the amperage from 3 to 6 amps for a single motor (or 3 amps each for a 2-motor diesel).

I think those of us who are interested in systems like this need to contact the companies who are starting to offer them and push to have 6 amp as the standard or minimum for O scale.

BlueRail, Bachmann, RCS of New England, are all coming out with bluetooth systems/components, they need to know up front what we feel is needed.

I'm happy with my RCS Australia/Deltang gear, it's very simple IMO, but I like to keep my options open on anything new.