Blunami 3 rail AC

Hi  Karl, I have a Blunami  board and it warns about things need to be isolated from the chassis. All your lights need to be directly connected to the screw terminals.  It only states using DC or DCC for track power. Might be a good idea using a full wave rectifier. Or contact George at Soundtraxx.

Don

When not connected to their power source, lights, motors and couplers are isolated. Most early smoke units have a connection to chassis ground but the circuit can be cut to eliminate that. Newer Lionel smoke units are isolated. You will want to check couplers though to make sure no bare wires are touching metal. Many times when couplers open unexpectedly its due to wire shorting to ground in the coil.

Pete

As info DCC is AC on the rails. and the Blunami has a wide voltage range that it will except. I have used DCC on my two rail stuff for years , the decoders are compact motor driver and sound on one board and the range of features and sound quality are far better than most of the generic sounds that are in Lionel and MTH locos. and at about $205 street price not a bad deal. I plan on upgrading some of my older 3 rail stuff and adding command to some that is still conventional as well as a couple of MTH locos with toasted boards.  the instruction and spec sheets are available on line.  

Hmm.  My question is, how sensitive is Blunami to the subtle changes in track voltage encountered in real-world layout conditions?

I've been considering a similar direct R/C technology made by AirWire.  Their decoder was originally designed to work with an on-board battery (sometimes known as "dead rail.")  The company warned me that the decoder should only be fed smoothed, regulated DC.  In other words, the stuff Karl mentioned is needed to modify the track power, and trick it into thinking that it's being fed by a battery.

Perhaps Blunami is more tolerant of jagged waveforms, spikes, and voltage variations.  If you want to risk letting the magic smoke out, you could try feeding it directly from the track.  If the loco mysteriously speeds up or slows down on parts of your layout, then you would probably benefit from some kind of "helper circuit" consisting of a rectifier, capacitor, and maybe a Zener diode? or some other component(s) to regulate the voltage.

I'm not as excited about Blunami because I don't want to run my trains with a cell phone.  (Direct R/C competitors AirWire and RailPro both offer hand-held controllers.)  Given the issues with Legacy and DCS in the past year, all of these alternatives are worth considering!   Good thread, following!!

Sufficient capacitance to approximate a battery isn't going to fit in most loco shells.  But enough to take out the worst of the "trash" on the AC feed should fit.  My controller would be an iPad.  I will likely give this a try in a DCRU loco and see what happens.  The flexibility of sound is attractive.

It appears that the Blunami will not work with unfiltered, rectified track AC.  The open question is how much filtering (i.e., how big a filter capacitor) is needed to make the 120 Hz ripple tolerable.  I'll get a Blunami board, bridge rectifier, grab some capacitors our of my inventory and find out.  Weaver Baldwin Shark will be the guinea pig.

I asked them about running it on AC when they first announced these last summer and the answer I got was that you would need to do something between the track and the board.  Ideally, according to Soundtrax, feed it 15V DC. Its on my list to fiddle around with one of these boards, a rectifier or some diodes and a weaver GP38 (which is fully insulated on a plastic frame), but I havent gotten that far down the list of things that need to be done at the moment.

Just got my Blunami a few days a go. Easy to setup the basics in a three rail steam engine. Has anyone paired a coupler release circuit (relay) on a function output to the coupler sound button. I am new to all this CV stuff. I want to press the coupler button on the app, hear the sound and open an electrocoupler like TMCC and DCS does.

Pete

Has anyone found a voltage converter that will fit in a hood unit and withstand the amp limit of the decoder? I got a board on eBay that’s good for 5A, but it’s too big to fit in a narrow hood. Probably fine for a full width locomotive or a tender though.  I just need one with a smaller form factor. If anyone has found one, let me know something about it.

This is a 5 amp switching convertor. .750” x 2.1”. Amazon item.

Pete

This just came in the mail from Amazon.  It is 2" Long by 1" wide.  I bought it for another use.

Haven't messed with it yet, but it is only rated for 3A.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09F...dt_b_product_details

John

@Norton posted:

This is a 5 amp switching convertor. .750” x 2.1”. Amazon item.

Pete

Thanks Pete.
I sent you an email....

I am literally in the process of stuffing some boards in this engine. The buck convertor requires a full wave bridge if you want to power it off the three rail track. I had a 6 amp  bridge thats attached to the convertor. The Blunmi was too wide to mount on the chassis so I had to place it in the shell requiring many more connectors for servicing. Next step is to see how well it receives signal in the diecast shell. If not well plan B is to mount it in the tender.

Pete

@Boilermaker1 I'm concerned that even if you find a converter with a narrower form factor, the heat radiating off your heat sink would warp your plastic shell.  I would imagine that it HAS to be firmly in contact with the metal chassis.

Most of you have seen my rants about rubber tires in 3-rail O gauge.  Ask yourself:  What would the peak current draw be if the wheels were allowed to slip, as God and Sir Isaac Newton intended?  Perhaps 3A is sufficient?

@Ted S posted:

@Boilermaker1 I'm concerned that even if you find a converter with a narrower form factor, the heat radiating off your heat sink would warp your plastic shell.  I would imagine that it HAS to be firmly in contact with the metal chassis.

Most of you have seen my rants about rubber tires in 3-rail O gauge.  Ask yourself:  What would the peak current draw be if the wheels were allowed to slip, as God and Sir Isaac Newton intended?  Perhaps 3A is sufficient?

Ted, these are switching regulators, not linear regulators. They are much more efficient. Running that big Pittman the heat sink is barely above ambient.

Pete

@Ted S posted:

@Boilermaker1 I'm concerned that even if you find a converter with a narrower form factor, the heat radiating off your heat sink would warp your plastic shell.  I would imagine that it HAS to be firmly in contact with the metal chassis.

Most of you have seen my rants about rubber tires in 3-rail O gauge.  Ask yourself:  What would the peak current draw be if the wheels were allowed to slip, as God and Sir Isaac Newton intended?  Perhaps 3A is sufficient?

The peak current draw is not at wheel slip, which is essentially a no load condition.  The current peaks when the motor stalls and the stall current is easy to measure with a meter by simply holding the output shaft of the motor and turning the voltage wide open.
It’s a 4 amp decoder.  Need to be able to supply at least that much power to it. Soundtraxx decoders have a fail safe that will shut the decoder down if the motor driver overloads to save the decoder.
Not worried about heat, it’s not that much power, and there’s already primitive electronics in there that haven’t melted down.

Yes, it's true that current draw at stall will be much higher than with the wheels slipping.  What I meant is that if your diesel didn't  have rubber tires on its wheels (and you also didn't purposely add extra weight), wheelslip would occur long before stall current reached 5A.  Especially if you were to rewire the twin motors in series.

I guess the decoder's overload protection is a good thing, otherwise you would have to consciously limit the train length to prevent accidentally exceeding the current rating.

My p/o/v is that the motor driver should be able to handle the stall current of the motor(s) and that the DC power source for said driver should be capable of delivering that current, plus the "overhead" load of the controlling electronics, without significant voltage loss and excessive 120 Hz ripple.  I don't yet have a bench DC supply capable of testing the motors accurately, but suspect that a pair of can motors in a typical loco, wired in series, will not overload the Blunami board under "normal" operating conditions.  The series connection should be OK if the loco is geared to run at excessive speed with 16+ V supplied to it, in "conventional" mode.  A large can motor in a large steamer is another matter.

@Boilermaker1 posted:

Thanks Pete.
I sent you an email....

Good evening -- could one of you post  the link to this device?  Thank you...

OK, here is the first test run of this MTH Hudson, former parts donor with a Williams tender. Motor is a 9433 Pittman, Lionel dumb fan smoke unit, 50 mm Fatboy speaker, main volume at about 50% and a Blunami 4408. AC to DC using a 5 amp switching convertor and 6 amp bridge rectifier. Added cost under 5 bucks. Amp draw according to my MTH Z4000 is under 1 amp.

Pete

Awesome Work Pete. That project deserves it’s own thread. I’ve been trying my best to follow along with this and learn more about it. After watching the video. It certainly runs smooth. Is there any sort of cruise feature involved ?  
Can it run with a TMCC or DCS running on the same block of track ?

Dave, your post reminded me I wanted to try that so just did. Put a MTH detector engine, and a TMCC Hudson all on the same track. No problem running them all at once. Too bad I only have a test track and could only run them a few feet.

The basic install is actually pretty simple. Add a AC to DC supply and you can have a running engine with sounds and lights in 20 minutes. Not much harder than installing a E unit. Its the add ons that take time. Not many in the DCC world use electro couplers and not sure many more have working smoke so the Blunami doesn’t provide that directly. Intermediate circuits have to be added to do that.

Where these shine is the sound selection. Legacy now has 5 whistles. This has 90. Plus choices on most all the other sounds, bell, coupler, dynamo, etc. The other place they excel is being able to add your own features to an engine and label them accordingly in the control panel.

It has Back EMF and runs fairly steady but you can see in the video that it sped up after uncoupling the train. Still low speed is fairly slow and steady.

I don’t expect this to replace ERR or PS3 kits until they disappear but if they do this is one way to keep them running and with all the features plus more than Legacy. Maybe a cottage industry will spring up to make those add ons for those that can’t design and fabricate their own.

Pete

I got it working.  Thanks to @Norton for the help with the voltage conversion.  I just need to “install” it now.
Bit of a tight fit with the horizontal motor, the decoder is gonna have to go above the rear drive tower and the speaker in the roof of the shell.

Parts:

Bridge : https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d...pop_mob_b_asin_title

Voltage converter: https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d...pop_mob_b_asin_title

Blunami 4408 EMD Diesel (885617)

Speaker is a 40x28mm 8ohm 4w from streamlined backshop.

@Boilermaker1 -- Thank you for posting the parts list.  I am hoping to use these boards in some installs of my own, and it is very helpful.

The DC>DC buck converter is available for $5½ on the biggest auction site.  I ordered a pair for evaluation.

@KarlDL posted:

The DC>DC buck converter is available for $5½ on the biggest auction site.  I ordered a pair for evaluation.

Prices are pretty fluid. I got 4 for 14 bucks last year at Amazon. Amazon has two for $8.58 right now. May be more at even better prices.

Pete

Wow....you guys are fantastic!! Just discovered these Blunami decoders yesterday at the Cartersville Train show 3-11-23 thru 3-12-23.

I just did a test of the range of the Blunami. Mine is now mounted in the engine shell. In that location I was only able to connect and blow the whistle from maybe 25 feet. That included one wood wall and then again one floor over the track. Then removed the shell and flipped it bottom side up. I could connect to it from over 40 feet one floor up. I ran out of room but would expect range is better than that on an open layout.

Conclusion, diecast greatly attenuates the signal. Mine will get moved to the tender with its plastic coal load.

Pete

http://bluerailtrains.com/runn...rail-ac-track-power/

Nice write up on what is required to use Blunami with 3 Rail AC power.

@Norton posted:

OK, here is the first test run of this MTH Hudson, former parts donor with a Williams tender. Motor is a 9433 Pittman, Lionel dumb fan smoke unit, 50 mm Fatboy speaker, main volume at about 50% and a Blunami 4408. AC to DC using a 5 amp switching convertor and 6 amp bridge rectifier. Added cost under 5 bucks. Amp draw according to my MTH Z4000 is under 1 amp.

Pete

Smooth running, but the chuff sound doesn't impress me.

@Mad_Liver posted:

http://bluerailtrains.com/runn...rail-ac-track-power/

Nice write up on what is required to use Blunami with 3 Rail AC power.

That would not be appropriate for either the 2 amp or 4 amp Blunami. Those three terminal regulators are only spec’ed at 1 amp. Plus its a linear regulator which is why it needs the big heat sink. That article was likely meant for a smaller decoder.

Pete

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Smooth running, but the chuff sound doesn't impress me.

I agree its not as rich as a Railsounds 4 chuff. There are some ways to modify the sound but I haven’t got to those yet. I can say it is deeper than what my iPad mike is picking up but too abrupt for my taste.

Pete

Ok... finished.  

I 3D printed a shelf for the decoder to sit above the drive tower, and a box for the speaker to sit in.  This is a "temporarily permanent" install. I dont really like using 2 sided tape to do stuff, but I did here.  This was a "science project".  This loco was a $90 York score, and it needs to be repainted into something a bit less Canadian (not to mention the road number is inaccurate).

I just have it running on rollers at the moment as the part of my layout that has a center rail is inoperable at the moment, but I'll find a place to go play with it soon.  It connected and ran fine on both my phone and my ipad.  Doesnt seem to have issues swapping back and forth between devices, but only one connection at a time it seems.

This was my first time installing a Tsunami 44XX board. I have a few Red Caboose GP9s running on 2200 boards, but the rest of my DCC stuff is Loksound 5Ls.  Jury still out on the screw terminals. I do like that you can solder on the loksound boards in any direction, whereas the screw terminals force you to sometimes wrap wires around the back side and in, but it does make it easier for "anyone" to install it.  With the voltage converter work needed, its not a solderless install. I also put sunny white LEDs in the lights, which needed 1K ohm resistors for the decoder to not blow them up.  

A 6A bridge is under the blue board, which is the voltage converter. Its screwed to the diecast weight for a heat sink.  The voltage converter is set to put out 16V DC (I bumped it up a volt from the pic above).

The Blunami board mount is just a flat plate with some posts.  The rear post is screwed in through the frame.  The front 2 posts just sit in some holes that were already in the weight.  There's a rounded hood for the flywheel to keep the wiring away from it.

Stuffing the speaker in the air filter box in the roof meant I had to add a few holes to the shell and run the speaker wires through the dynamic brake pocket in the shell. Cant see it, no big deal here.

The interface resizes itself for an iPad.

Just playing around.... It will take some time playing with the CVs to get it all to run well.  First thing I did though was set the Accel to 120 and the Decel to 80. Thats what I use in all my other locos.  Equate it to TMCC momentum settings.  

In total: $205 board, $.60 bridge, $6 voltage converter and a $10 speaker.  I dont calculate the price of 3D printer filament because the 2m it took is pennies. So $222 in the locomotive. About the same as a PS3 upgrade, and way cheaper than a ERR set.  Tons of sounds, nearly infinite adjustment, people may start realizing what they were missing out on with these proprietary systems.  

One thing though: Don't stock pile these decoders for installs. Buy them as you need them.  These are V1.0, it would not surprise me if they end up adding tweaks , adding/changing sound files or advancing with bluetooth parts, etc... to V1.1 and so on, and the firmware boards isnt "upgradable" like a Loksound board is. Just install the version you can buy at the time and buy another board for the next install. They'll still play with each other because its all DCC, but you'll kick yourself if they upgrade the sound fidelity and you've got a stack of old ones.

@Norton posted:

I agree its not as rich as a Railsounds 4 chuff. There are some ways to modify the sound but I haven’t got to those yet. I can say it is deeper than what my iPad mike is picking up but too abrupt for my taste.

Pete

I figured there had to be better options.  I think the abrupt nature is the most obnoxious, it's just sort of a static burst, hearkens back to the Mighty Sound of Steam.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I figured there had to be better options.  I think the abrupt nature is the most obnoxious, it's just sort of a static burst, hearkens back to the Mighty Sound of Steam.

The bigger problem with the chuff is you can’t synchronize chuff with puff. Some Soundtraxx boards have a cam in to do that. Blunami doesn’t. The smoke fan here is driven off an optical detector with stripes on a driver. Perfect 4 puffs per rev but it doesn’t always align with the chuff sound. You can adjust the sound to be close to driver rotation like you can with EOB (kit version) or DCS tach strips, there is a variable on the configuration page,  but it doesn’t always start at the same place so sometimes you get smoke puffs in between chuffs.
Hopefully that will be addressed in future versions or maybe another manufacturer will get on the Bluetooth DCC band wagon. Still a lot of potential here especially for do it yourselfers.

Pete

Is there any way to supply the chuff yourself?  That to me would be a major issue for me if the chuff sound didn't match the chuff smoke!  In looking at the decoder wiring, I don't even see how you connect a smoke unit.  I'm presuming you use a couple of the functions that illustrate lamps for the smoke instead?

There are no specific outputs for a smoke unit. I am using one output to drive a relay (outputs can only supply 100ma, so a relay is required for larger current draws) that turns power on and off to the smoke unit but the fan is driven by the optical detector circuit. I would typically use a cam and micro switch but not easy on an MTH engine with enclosed axles. Of course I suspect most others would use your chuff generator.

Maybe other DCC users here can comment on the cam feature on other Soundtraxx decoders. I am just a rookie here with this DCC stuff.

My chuff switch.

Pete

Yikes, pulling the wheel off would turn a lot of folks off.   The latest shipping version of the Chuff-Generator has a FET driver for the chuff, so it could easily drive the motor directly

The lack of synchronization is still problematic, I guess that's in the next generation.  I wonder how other decoders do it, I have seen HO steamers with synchronized smoke.

@Norton posted:

That would not be appropriate for either the 2 amp or 4 amp Blunami. Those three terminal regulators are only spec’ed at 1 amp. Plus its a linear regulator which is why it needs the big heat sink. That article was likely meant for a smaller decoder.

Pete

I was just going off what Blunami sent me.

@Mad_Liver posted:

I was just going off what Blunami sent me.

I am surprised they even have that on their website. They should know better. FWIW you can buy that circuit on a PC board with a pot for less than what it would cost you to build that circuit.

Pete

@Mad_Liver posted:

I was just going off what Blunami sent me.

Bluerail is not the same as Blunami.

I also have a 4400 Blunami that I hope to fit into an Atlas SW9. Original control was with a Dallee board which I’ve removed. I was hoping to deadrail the loco but I don’t believe I could fit a battery in it. Too tight. So powering off the tracks was the option. In consulting Soundtrax, they felt that an input via a smoothed rectified bridge would be adequate to power the board off of AC. The board has a wide input range. The board’s sound file matches the proto’s. It’s a work in progress now.

DCC is a superior, IMHO, alternative to what’s available in the 3rail world. I have used the ESU controller with an Airwire DCC receiver. Control and sound is surprisingly good. Synchronized smoke is no problem.

The Blunami may be a breakthrough for diesels since smoke sync is not as good as  we know with other options.  I hope this thread continues.

Larry

Larry, FWIW the Back EMF seems to work fairly well but speed will change if input voltage changes. I found that out when I increased the voltage on my DC-DC convertor from 16 to 18 volts while the engine was running and it sped up. I think the speed is a ratio of the input voltage.
Point is if you go with a rectifier and cap the speed will change if track voltage changes for any reason.

Pete

@Norton posted:

Larry, FWIW the Back EMF seems to work fairly well but speed will change if input voltage changes. I found that out when I increased the voltage on my DC-DC convertor from 16 to 18 volts while the engine was running and it sped up. I think the speed is a ratio of the input voltage.
Point is if you go with a rectifier and cap the speed will change if track voltage changes for any reason.

That's great info Pete.  Last year I exchanged emails with the folks at CVP Products (Airwire), and they were adamant to power their decoder from a battery.  I had a feeling we would need some kind of voltage regulator after the cap to achieve the intended performance.

Switching regulator power supplies are dirt cheap, I'd find a buck/boost model that can maintain a constant output regardless of input voltage, that will solve the varying voltage issue.

A bridge rectifier followed by a voltage regulator will provide a proper AC to DC track based power source for the Blunamis. Battery power is also good and somewhat simpler.

Intersting thread here that might be helpful in this thread...maybe not?

Conventioal vs. Legacy vs. DCC ??????? | O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum
https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...oal-vs-legacy-vs-dcc

Just finished moving the electronics from the engine to the tender for better range. In the engine it would loose the connection after about 20 feet or moving to the next room. In the tender under its plastic coal load is at least two orders of magnitude better. Two floors up and back at least 30 feet it still connects and I have control. Conclusion, don’t install it in a diecast steam engine. Plastic diesels should be fine.

I didn’t see any way to add an antenna to this. Maybe if that was possible then engine install might work.

As for the chuff sounds I discovered it has at least nine options. Light, medium, and heavy with three choices for each. Then you can add reverb to each one. Main volume and individual volumes available. I am set at about 50% and its every bit as loud as any Lionel engine with just its single driver.

Someone wanting to build their own Vision engine could do it with this board. I am only using two of the six programable function outputs for coupler and smoke plus have three unused wires in the MTH ten wire tether. Whistle steam, swinging bell, blowdown steam, fireman shoveling coal could all be added by adding the required hardware. And for a fraction of the cost of using Legacy components.

Pete

Pete, interested in your project.

Question: Does the Blunami have any provision for track interruptions, dirty wheels, etc., affecting the sound or lighting outputs?

Dave

@Dtrainmaster posted:

Pete, interested in your project.

Question: Does the Blunami have any provision for track interruptions, dirty wheels, etc., affecting the sound or lighting outputs?

Dave

It has a connection for a keep-alive battery, they call it a "CurrentKeeper".

@Dtrainmaster posted:

Pete, interested in your project.

Question: Does the Blunami have any provision for track interruptions, dirty wheels, etc., affecting the sound or lighting outputs?

Dave

What John says. Not sure but I think its just a big capacitor. You could likely add a big cap to the DC-DC convertor as well. I won’t be able to do any long term testing until I can get this on the club layout as I only have a test track. I know I have turned track power off with the app still running and then turned power on after a few minutes and comes to life without its 15 second connecting routine.
If you want to test the waters I would suggest getting the two amp version if you have some smaller single motor engine like a Williams or Docksider and play with it. If, like me, you are new to DCC there is a learning curve with the CVs and other options but the app itself has many of the configuration menus in place. No third party programs required. Only thing is you can’t access those menus unless you are communicating with a Blunami.

Pete

As previously mentioned, one of the very useful features of the Blunami app is the shortcut approach to CV adjustments. The large number of CV's can be intimidating to a new DCC user. The app shortcuts provide a more defined basis for operating condition adjustments.

If you don't want to go through the process of converting AC to DC, run a BlueRail 5 amp board and Tsunami 4400 sound card (not the Blunami 4408) using the Blunami app.  Only down side is you do not get the menus @BOB WALKER mentions above.  You have to know your CVs.  But the BlueRail 5 amp board supports AC track power.

Ron

I am running now a Blunami 4408 in an Atlas SW9. The engine is very compact. All it took was a bridge rectifier (5 amp) and smoothing capacitor. Set the transformer to provide 15v. So far amazed at the performance.,

Larry

The "current keeper" appears to be a stack of capacitors.

@Mainliner posted:

I am running now a Blunami 4408 in an Atlas SW9. The engine is very compact. All it took was a bridge rectifier (5 amp) and smoothing capacitor. Set the transformer to provide 15v. So far amazed at the performance.,

Larry

I'm planning an Atlas SW9 also.  Did you replace all of the lights or use what was there?  LED or incandescent?

Hi, has anybody tried using the Blunami 4408 with a Williams dual motor loco? I have two that are slated to have Bluetooth/dcc added, but they both show a preak stall current of 5.5 amps running on ac. When cruising normally they show a peak of 2.5 amps. If I have to purchase a Blueraildcc card for each I will. Just hate to spend the extra $$$ if I can avoid it.

Thanks!

Bobby

What if you wire the motors in series?  Will that lower your stall current?

Worth a try! One of them is an F3 that originally came with just one motor. The shop I purchased it from added the second powered truck. Thinking maybe I remove the second motor. It's only going to be pulling 3-4 traditional sized passenger cars anyway. I'll try both methods and see what happens. Thanks for the idea.

Assuming identical motors, wiring them in series will drop the stall current to approximately a quarter of that for parallel-wired motors.  But that comes at the cost of reducing the locomotive's maximum speed and pulling power, due to the voltage across each motor being halved.  That restriction may not matter for a switcher, but it will for an E8.  The lower the drive gear ratio of the locomotive, the greater the likelihood that reasonable speed can be obtained, though pulling power may not be great.

Here are some measured numbers from my Weaver Sharknose model, using a lab bench DC power supply:

Stall current, each motor, 12VDC:  5.0A & 5.2A,  Wired in parallel, 10.2A.

Stall current,, each motor, 6VDC: 2.6A & 2.5A.  Wired in parallel, 5.1A.

Stall current, motors wired in series, 12VDC:  2.5A.

The maximum voltage that may be applied to the series-wired motors is determined by (a) track power open-circuit AC voltage, (b) effective series impedance of track power source transformer, (c) full-wave bridge rectifier forward voltage drop, (d) rectifier filter 120 Hz ripple voltage under load, and (e) motor drive transistor voltage drop in the Blunami board.  I'm only about halfway through my lab-bench investigation of the subject, but it's looking like getting more than 9V across each motor, under load, is a daunting task, when wired in series.  For a typical O gauge twin-motored diesel, it may not be possible to achieve stall current within the Blunami specification while obtaining reasonable speed and pulling power.  Then it's a matter of deciding what the risks are and whether they're worth taking.

@BobbyDing posted:

Hi, has anybody tried using the Blunami 4408 with a Williams dual motor loco? I have two that are slated to have Bluetooth/dcc added, but they both show a preak stall current of 5.5 amps running on ac. When cruising normally they show a peak of 2.5 amps. If I have to purchase a Blueraildcc card for each I will. Just hate to spend the extra $$$ if I can avoid it.

A much more sensible solution might be to put a PTC of the correct rating in series with the motors and leave them in parallel.  You'll get the full pulling power, but won't have a major risk of over current in a stall.  I'd figure on about a 2.0 to 2.5 trip rating for the PTC.  I've used this technique for protecting the ERR Cruise Commander Lite, it was subject to damage if you used it in full sized locomotives with a load.

That 2.5A figure looks excessive to me, I suspect this is an older Williams that had the current sucking motors. I'm working on a fairly recent Williams scale GG-1 with dual motors.  It's cruising current draw pulling six passenger cars is around 0.7 to 0.9 amps as it goes around the layout.  The stall current if I stall both motors is 2.9 amps.  The motors are the typical Mabuchi 3xx series motors that are used in many diesels of all the major manufacturers.

Ron, on that Atlas SW9 I switched to leds.

Larry

No doubt it pays to be cautious given these are new and few have experience with them yet but they do have circuitry that will shut down if overloaded. Some here are already using them in two motor diesels. I would first run the engines before installing a new board to see what they actually draw. Total stall can happen but its pretty rare. Usually the wheels will slip if the engine can’t move but do whatever you are comfortable with.

As for lighting I have one incandescent and two LEDS driven by the headlight circuit. The grain of rice bulb only draws 25ma and even with the LEDs current draw is a fraction of the 100ma output rating.

Pete

After a considerable number of control system upgrades, I found that the series motor connection is an effective solution to the stall current issue with lower rated (2A) systems. With higher rated modules like the Blunami4408 (4A), the parallel arrangement is generally workable.

@BobbyDing without rubber tires, the loco would spin its wheels before it got anywhere near 5.5 amps.  Remove the tires, fill the grooves with JB Weld (?) and level it out carefully to achieve a smooth, concentric tread.  Perhaps never worry about overcurrent OR tire replacement ever again...?

Ted, I’m curious as o how level the wheels out. Any particular technique you use?

If I were inclined to do what Ted suggests, which I'm not, I'd just use the JB-Kwik type and rotate the wheels under power upside down to smooth out the grooves.  I personally don't have all the problems I see here with traction tires, so I don't spend a lot of time trying to "improve" on them.

Odds of a dual motor stall are pretty slim and the boards have an overload protection on them.  I would say the risk of letting the smoke out of it over a motor stall are so small it doesn't warrant concern.  Atlas says the stall current of their dual motor diesels is 6 amps in their documentation, yet they are supplying them from the factory with Loksound 5L decoders, which, according to ESU, can only put 3 Amps to the motors. They also dont seem to blow up. So there's that.

I have overamped a Tsunami decoder on dirty track. Its pretty obvious when it gets unhappy and shuts down. The train stops, the headlight flashes, it does a pretty good job of letting you know you should cut the power off. Resolve the issue, and it starts right back up.

Progress report on the Weaver Shark conversion:  With the can motors wired in series and 18V pure DC on the track, around 31 scale mph was achieved pulling 15 cars on level track.  Speed loss up a 3% grade was minimal.  However, the one functional pickup arm/roller has some issues that prevent full track voltage from reaching the Blunami board and the other arm just doesn't conduct.  Lots of data collected on AC rectification and DC regulation developed, though I haven't set up the loco for AC track power yet.  Once I get the ancillary annoyances resolved, this will probably work nicely.

Will eagerly await your results, having tried all three (AC track, DC track and battery power).

Bob, project is on hiatus 'til next week.  Pickup roller assemblies are faulty, so no meaningful on-track testing can be done until they're replaced.  One had no conductivity between the roller and its pins that mate with the arm forks, the other had a voltage loss of around 2½V.  So the Blunami board wasn't getting full supply voltage when the Shark was on the track.  Others have reported pickup problems with the Weaver Sharks.

Understandable. From time to time I have experienced pickup issues. Once I resorted to a third pickup in a trailing car hard wired to the board. Why I got so happy with battery power.

Excellent intro thread guys!   My ancient understanding of Bluetooth is that while one can run multiple BT devices independently from a single source you cannot control (sync) two or more devices as one... as in, Multi-Unit operation.   Please, correct me if I'm mistaken... and, Thanks!

@Dennis-LaRock posted:

Excellent intro thread guys!   My ancient understanding of Bluetooth is that while one can run multiple BT devices independently from a single source you cannot control (sync) two or more devices as one... as in, Multi-Unit operation.   Please, correct me if I'm mistaken... and, Thanks!

Dennis, i believe that's true in the sense that you can't run the Blunami on both your iPhone and iPad to control the same loco, at the same time.  But the app has a multi-engine screen option that permits simultaneous control of multiple locos.  I won't try that until I'm happy with single engine performance and then pursue a second conversion.  Whether the iPhone can control one loco and the iPad another is unknown.

@Dennis-LaRock posted:

Excellent intro thread guys!   My ancient understanding of Bluetooth is that while one can run multiple BT devices independently from a single source you cannot control (sync) two or more devices as one... as in, Multi-Unit operation.   Please, correct me if I'm mistaken... and, Thanks!

Actually you can build a consist according to the manual. Just not as simply as with TMCC or DCS.

If you download the Blunami Steam Users Guide it details the procedure. I suspect the diesel manual does that as well.

Pete

Wow!  Timely responses!  Documentation downloaded.  I have to figure out which old diesel/electric I want to test it with and order up the parts.  Thanks!

The Blunami app multiple engine control and the consist arrangement work quite well. I do not believe that both an iPhone and an iPad can work simultaneously as control elements.

Setting up consists in Blunami is the same process as BlueRail.  The setup is extremely easy. 

The challenging part may be the speed matching, but once it's done you do not have to ever do it again.

Since the app pairs with the loco's, I believe you can pair different loco's to different devices so you can have 3 different loco's controlled by 3 different throttles (devices). You can not have 1 loco controlled by multiple devices.

@Darrell posted:

Since the app pairs with the loco's, I believe you can pair different loco's to different devices so you can have 3 different loco's controlled by 3 different throttles (devices). You can not have 1 loco controlled by multiple devices.

Correct Darrell.  If you had an operating session with friends, each could have a device and control a loco or locos.

In addition one person with one device can control many (I think 99?) Locos.  But only 4 separate throttles will show on the screen at once.  You would have to swipe to see the next 4.

Android must be around the corner.  I was contacted about beta testing.

Ron

Interesting question. I opened the Blunami app on an iPhone and an iPad and then switched on two Blunami2200 installed engines. The two Blunamis connected only with the iPad in multi-engine mode.. When I switched off the iPad and left the iPhone app up, both Blunamis then connected to the iPhone, again in multi engine mode. It appears that only one device can be used even with multiple Blunamis. I would like to know what others are finding.

I have a bunch of Proto-1 locomotives that could benefit from this option. I was thinking, though, that the 2-amp converter could be used if the motors were connected in series. Dan Dawdy was using 2-amp DCC decoders on his RS1's with series-connected motors with great success. The one thing to watch out for is wheel-slip (acts like a one-legged differential in a car).

During further study, found that the procedure for connecting more than one device app to different Blunamis is critical. Bring up only one device app and then turn on Blunami #1. Then bring up the second device app and turn on Blunami #2. Both will connect to their respective devices in standard mode which will result in individual control of each Blunami via the separate devices, the desired result. Again, both apps up initially will not work.

Here's my initial report on the Blu Shark project, conversion of a 1990s 3-rail AC Weaver/Samhongsa Sharknose diesel to 3-rail Blunami control and sound.

The dual can motors, when wired in parallel, had a stall current exceeding the rating of my power supply, 10A.  Wired in series, the stall current was 4A at 18V, at the Blunami 4408 board's specified current limit.

With the motors wired in series, connected directly to the track pickups, and run with 18VDC power on the tracks, the Weaver Shark achieved a speed that's respectable for a freight hauler that ran mostly on secondary lines, probably around 45 smph, hauling 15 average freight cars (scale).  Observed current reached a maximum of approximately 1A when hauling that train up a 3% grade.  This corresponds to a load resistance of approximately 18 Ohms.

My layout is powered by 3 Lionel Powerhouse 180 "bricks", whose nominal AC output voltage is 18.9V without load.  Loaded track voltage stays near 18V throughout the dual-track mainline.  When the Powerhouse feeds a full-wave bridge rectifier and a 20 Ohm resistive load, a filter capacitor of approximately 1000µF is needed across the rectifier input to keep the ripple minimum voltage above 18VDC.

The Shark was experimentally wired with the bridge AC terminals attached to the (replaced) pickup rollers and chassis common, the aforementioned capacitor across the bridge DC leads, and the latter connected to the Blunami board DC input terminals.  The Blunami motor output was connected to the two can motors in series.  Its sound output was connected to the Shark's original fuel tank speaker (it was delivered with a QSI electronic horn).  The Blunami board DC input voltage at idle was 24.5V, with virtually no ripple, below its 26V rating.  Under load, the DC voltage does drop somewhat and there's some 120 Hz ripple, but the peak ripple voltage does not exceed 24.5 V.

In this temporary configuration, the Blunami control board and Blurail software worked flawlessly.  Operation was smooth and minimal loss of speed occurred when pulling 15 cars up the 3% grade at roughly 40 smph.  Some tweaking of the throttle response characteristic appears necessary, but that will await further refinement of the conversion.  No 120Hz hum was heard out of the loco's speaker.  Whether running at speed or creeping along, the Shark pulled smoothly.

Next up will be permanently mounting the components and adding a DC>DC buck converter regulator.  I've done some work on the test bench with that, but have yet to install it in the Shark and actually run a train.  The bench tests were encouraging.  Once the fundamental motor control is optimized, lights and couplers can be addressed.  I'll also do a complete write-up of the project, including extensive measured data for motors and rectifier, scope waveform photos, and so forth.

My tentative conclusion is that the Blunami control board is a very practical alternative to DCS and TMCC for dual can motored diesels in general freight or yard service.  The tradeoff is between absolute speed and meeting the Soundtraxx 4A stall current limit, so it may not be appropriate for mainline varnish and hotshot freights.  And there's no way to meet the stall current limit in steamers with large can motors.  Once the Blu Shark is finished, an Atlas switcher and possibly a Weaver E8 may be up next on the workbench.

A hearty welcome to the Blunami operators club. It's good to hear of others confirming my good operating experience with Blunami. I've done Blunami with AC track power, DC track power and battery and all worked well. The Blunami4408 with the 4A stall current does help a lot with larger engines. I am currently working on an approach to operating electro-couplers using an FX . Those CV shortcuts built into the app are really helpful.

@KarlDL posted:

And there's no way to meet the stall current limit in steamers with large can motors.  Once the Blu Shark is finished, an Atlas switcher and possibly a Weaver E8 may be up next on the workbench.

I am running a large Pittman 15v 9433 motor in an MTH scale Hudson. Stall current is about 5 amps. Pulling 8 freight cars, longest on my test track, with smoke running it only draws 1.2 amps max. I agree you wouldn’t want to use this with a Mabuchi 550 or 555 motor found on many Williams brass and Weaver engines but Pittmans are much more efficient.

I chose to rely the Blunami’s protective circuitry if stall current is exceeded but fast fuses or PTCs could also be used if stall current is a concern.

Pete

Hey Pete!  If you substitute a 24V Pittman motor in that Hudson, you'll still have a top speed north of 60 scale mph (ask me how I know this!)  And if you also get rid of the rubber tires, I'm willing to bet that you'll keep the stall well under 4 amps.  I'll mail a crisp $5 bill to the first one who fills his traction tire grooves with JB Weld!  ;-D

@Ted S posted:

Hey Pete!  If you substitute a 24V Pittman motor in that Hudson, you'll still have a top speed north of 60 scale mph (ask me how I know this!)  And if you also get rid of the rubber tires, I'm willing to bet that you'll keep the stall well under 4 amps.  I'll mail a crisp $5 bill to the first one who fills his traction tire grooves with JB Weld!  ;-D

You guys worry too much. No worries here. Soundtraxx did their homework. No way to pull 15 21” cars without traction tires.

Pete

Ride Fast, Take Chances

Pete, I'm taking a cautious approach because of the newness of the Blunami cards and the conservative nature that was instilled in me in engineering school 50 years ago.  I suspect that 95+% of the time, the 4408 card will perform just fine in many engines, regardless of stall current.  Unfortunately, both of my steamers with can motors and "conventional" control have Mabuchi motors, so they'll get ERR Cruise Commander conversions.

I looked up the spec sheet for one of the more popular Pittman motors a few weeks ago and found that its rated stall current was nearly 15A, which surprised me, given discussions on this forum.  One must consider not only the average current seen on meters but also the peak current that has the potential to activate the card's protective features.  PWM is used in many motor controllers (including Blunami) and the peak current during a low-duty-cycle pulse will be far greater than the average.  I'll admit to not having looked into that in any depth.  But I do know that my DC power supply often went into current limiting when the Shark's motors were wired in parallel and the current limit was set to 2A, while the supply's display never showed more than 1.4A.  This was worsened by the faulty pickup rollers (later replaced) causing intermittent losses of supply voltage and therefore current surges upon restoration of conductivity.  In that circumstance, the Shark did not operate smoothly nor reliably.

I did run the Shark with the motors wired in parallel, with pure DC power, and the Blunami card in-circuit.  Replacing the faulty pickup rollers resolved the reliability issues.  Displayed currents reached well into the 1-2A range at speed.  The linearity of the Bluerail speed control left lots to be desired, but it wasn't tuned to the engine at the time.  It appeared that parallel motors was a practical possibility, as long as a DC>DC buck converter board was used for regulation and I was willing to accept the (unlikely) risk of a stall.  In the end, the series connection gave me all the speed and pulling power I desired along with better control linearity, compliance with the Soundtraxx specification, and the option of not including a buck regulator.  I might make different choices on a different loco.

As long as we acknowledge that risks exist when operating outside the manufacturer specifications, let's all pursue what we're comfortable with and share our results.

I'll mail a crisp $5 bill to the first one who fills his traction tire grooves with JB Weld!  

@Ted S put a zero behind that 5, and I’ll drag whatever your want with no traction tires …….🤣🤣🤣

Pat

I agree Karl. No need to take chances. I played it pretty conservative at first as well until I saw how it behaved under load.

Pete

I could not resist jumping in on the JB Weld comment:

See my web page, https://oscaledeadrail.com/202...lionel-h-7-2-8-8-2/, for converting a Lionel H-7 (beautiful model!) to 2-Rail and Dead-Rail, including cutting down and insulating the drivers (and filling in the traction grooves).

I just viewed your site, that's some great work Darrell!  In your case you had no choice, but I don't own a lathe, and I'm not crazy about pulling and pressing the wheels just to smooth out the tread.  What are the chances of scraping off the excess JB Weld with an xacto blade before it sets hard by running the loco upside-down in a cradle at very slow speed?  Or perhaps, by allowing the wheels / axles to spin freely in the chassis, and smoothing the tread with a grinding bit in a rotary tool?

How does the hardness of metal epoxy compare to that of the railhead, and of the factory tires?  If I could get it close, do you think the tread would eventually wear perfectly smooth from operation?  It's appalling that we have to resort to any of these techniques.  Thanks for sharing!

I found the JB Weld difficult to work into the grooves and then shape flush, but you are probably more skilled than I am. It was very easy to shave flush with lathe tooling, so manual cutting/filing may work out for you.

If you try the JB Weld, I urge you to test the product on some sort of "sacrificial" sample beforehand to "get the feel" of its working time and how it responds to tooling and filing. That way, you can try out your shaping ideas.

I don't have enough running time to say what the wear properties are, but I hope this steel-impregnated epoxy is slightly flexible and "grippy."

Good luck!

Karl the only thing new on the blunami decoder is the bluetooth receiver. the rest is the time proven Tsunami 2 4400 there are thousands of them out there in the O scale 2 rail high amperage world. Soundtrax has been at it for years with a great track record.

Blu Shark Part II:

My previous post on the Blu Shark project described operation with a bare-bones AC to DC converter: a simple full-wave bridge rectifier with smoothing/filter capacitor ahead of the Blunami card, with the Weaver/Samhongsa Baldwin Sharknose diesel's twin can motors wired in series.  I continued onward to a more sophisticated conversion scheme, using a DC>DC buck converter board following the rectifier & filter to produce a regulated DC input to the Blunami card.

Here's a picture of the Nude Shark, stripped of its original QSI DCRU and electronic horn cards; the chassis and center rail roller wires were retained:

In the space above the Shark's speaker, I mounted a vertically-oriented piece of 3/16" clear acrylic to use as the (insulated) mounting surface for the convertor/regulator and Blunami cards.  Here's a photo of the 3" x 1½" piece and its ½" aluminum mounting angle; loco front is too the right:

You can see the Diodes, Inc. GBU-1001 FWB rectifier mounted just ahead of the acrylic piece, using the hole from the QSU mounting cylinder.

The cheap ($3.50>$8) Chinese DC>DC buck convertor/regulator is mounted on one side, using double-sided foam tape squares.  The Panasonic 1000µF 50V filter/smoothing capacitor is connected at buck converter input (left side), but is hard to see because it is the same color as the Shark carbody shell behind it.

I should note that the converter has two mounting holes, so using screws and stand-off insulators is a reasonable alternative mounting arrangement.

Don't ask about RF interference from this converter/regulator.  It certainly increased the noise floor in my workshop's Bose Wave Radio on the FM band.  I didn't work up the nerve to power-up my spectrum analyzer and take a detailed look at its emissions.  Any correlation between its performance and FCC incidental emissions regulations is, undoubtedly, entirely coincidental!  But it didn't clobber TMCC on my layout.  And when you live out in the woods, the rest isn't of much concern.

I retained the 1000µF filter/smoothing capacitor used in the bare converter scheme previously noted, now mounted at the buck regulator input.  The Blunami decoder/controller card is mounted on the other side of the acrylic piece, also using the foam tape squares.  You can see the more-visible Panasonic filter/smooting capacitor between the acrylic piece and the forward motor, above the FWB rectifier:

You really don't have a good mounting alternative to foam tape for the Blunami, as the card has no mounting holes.  I mounted it upside down, to ensure easy access to its "current keeper" port, in case that's needed.  Operation to date suggests that it's not necessary.  DC power input wires are red and black; motor output wires are yellow and green; speaker wires are both blue.

All wiring was #22 AWG.  I contemplated using #18, but the original Weaver/Samhongsa wiring was #22, the lengths short, and the current normally under 1A.  So the loss difference would be minimal and the flexibility of the #22 wire was much better.  Before applying power for the first time, one MUST check the resistance to ground from each speaker terminal and the motors' two primary connections - resolving any measurement below a megohm.  My first setup of this scheme resulted in a smoked Blunami when the voice coil lead of the speaker contacted its frame.  On the reworked version, I put heat-shrink tubing over the speaker-end solder connections  and carefully inspected the voice coil wires, in addition to checking the load-to-chassis resistances as noted above.  The speaker was new, as well.

Sitting at idle, with track powered by a Lionel Powerhouse 180, the DC>DC buck converter/regulator was set for an output of 18V.  The locomotive was run with a test train consisting of a dummy B unit, 16 "average" freight cars, and a lighted caboose.  The BluRail iPad app includes a Blunami real-time input voltage measurement display.  This never dropped below 17.8V, and then for only a short part of a 3% incline, when the entire train was headed uphill.  Speed loss upgrade didn't seem significant.  Shark trainspotters reported them as "luggers" that seldom exceeded 45 mph in real-life.  The Blu Shark seems capable of at least that, uphill, with a heavy train, but won't be a ballast burner otherwise.

There are many theoretical reasons to favor the use of the rectifier + converter/regulator over the bare-bones FWB rectifier and smoothing/filter capacitor.  The practical implementation proved those benefits - the locomotive performed consistently, regardless of train size or track gradient.  Track voltage anomalies were essentially invisible.  I'll be posting a more technical discussion of the measured data and its implications.

FWIW, while I had the Shark disassembled to implement this conversion, I also converted its pilot to a fixed mount, attached to the loco's base plate instead of to the front bogie (a/k/a truck).  This resolved a problem of the uncoupler pad shorting the center rail in certain Ross switches, but at the cost of giving the Shark somewhat of a "high water pants" look from track elevation.  Ignoring the latter, it seems to match prototype Shark pix better.  Yet ...

Headlights, markers, and electrocouplers remain on the horizon in the Blu Shark.  I set up the incandescent headlight for 3V, but it burned out after a half hour or so of operation, so that was probably too high.  It will be replaced by an LED.  A backup light LED will be installed in the B unit, connected to the Blu Shark by tether.  Marker light LEDs have their mounting challenges, but I'll look into adding them.

The bottom line is that, for medium-sized, twin-motored diesels, the Blunami controller card appears to be a worthy alternative to Lionel's TMCC and the MTH DCS, as long as one is willing to accept a smartphone or tablet as the controller surface.  I'm very pleased with the performance of my Blu Shark and look forward to implementing this scheme on an Atlas EMD switcher and (ancient) Weaver FA/FB pair.  Passenger diesels are another matter for future investigation - likely next fall/winter.

--Karl

Nicely done Karl. I was able to utilize a pair of holes in the Blunami to mount it using 0-80 screws and standoffs so there is an alternative to double sided tape.

Pete

Waiting for an Android version of the software to give it a try...

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Waiting for an Android version of the software to give it a try...

You're not the only one! And I remind them of that every chance I get!

@Magicland posted:

You're not the only one! And I remind them of that every chance I get!

I'm not holding my breath, I've moved on to other pursuits.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Waiting for an Android version of the software to give it a try...

My phone is Android, so I, too, await the new version of the BluRail app.  Fortunately, my wife bequeathed me her old iPad, so I have an interim solution.

@Norton posted:

Nicely done Karl. I was able to utilize a pair of holes in the Blunami to mount it using 0-80 screws and standoffs so there is an alternative to double sided tape.

Pete

I looked for holes and didn't find them.  I'll take a closer look at the fried board and see where they are.

@DarrellR posted:

I could not resist jumping in on the JB Weld comment:

See my web page, https://oscaledeadrail.com/202...lionel-h-7-2-8-8-2/, for converting a Lionel H-7 (beautiful model!) to 2-Rail and Dead-Rail, including cutting down and insulating the drivers (and filling in the traction grooves).

Just seen your web page, …..very nice work, …..bravo!

Pat

@DarrellR posted:

I could not resist jumping in on the JB Weld comment:

See my web page, https://oscaledeadrail.com/202...lionel-h-7-2-8-8-2/, for converting a Lionel H-7 (beautiful model!) to 2-Rail and Dead-Rail, including cutting down and insulating the drivers (and filling in the traction grooves).

HOLY COW!  That looks like a ton of work to make it all work!  That's some serious mechanical skills exhibited there!

@KarlDL posted:

I looked for holes and didn't find them.  I'll take a closer look at the fried board and see where they are.

They are pretty small but seem to hold the board no problem.

Pete

The Blunami 4408 is easy to wire and when installed, provides a great array of operating features. Work has started on the Android app. Stay tuned.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

HOLY COW!  That looks like a ton of work to make it all work!  That's some serious mechanical skills exhibited there!

I am entirely self-taught, starting about three or four years ago. One of these H-7 conversions is the only locomotive I've ever sold.

I have always admired your work and knowledge!

@BOB WALKER posted:

Work has started on the Android app. Stay tuned.

A lot more interested in when work will be finished on the Android app!

I thought I would perpetuate this thread instead of starting something new. I am a long time model railroader, but it’s all been in HO, N, and 2-rail O scale. In those endeavors I was always a straight DC guy—no DCC.

The new layout is in its infancy, but the basic idea was a large double track semi-dogbone layout with the outer track being 2-rail O and the inner track starting out as 3R.

My entire locomotive collection right now consists of a 2-rail Atlas Rsd-15, a Weaver Rs-3 that has NWSL magic carpets installed with an old Aristo electronic speed control wired for a 8.4v RC car battery (my first crack at battery power)—

and

a just purchased MTH DL-109 (ps1) and a DL-110 (Ps3), along with a Weaver 3R Royal Hudson, which has whatever those have installed.

It seems an ideal time to research ideas for configuring everything, and ideally it would be great to have one system of control for everything while my motive power roster is tiny.

As I’ve never been into 3R I don’t have any A/C transformers (or for that matter, any three rail track), that doesn’t factor in to any decision.

I’m wide open for any suggestions about what to use—that’s the good news.

The bad news is that I’m dumb as a stump when it comes to having any knowledge of anything beyond good old DC track power. ( I have soaked up a little DCC knowledge over the years from listening to other people.)

My layout will be about 25’x10’, and a 5 car passenger train or a 13 or 14 car freight will probably be the heaviest load that any of these locomotives would ever haul.

Jeff C

Consider Blunami operates on DC. It could be just a matter of powering the track with DC. If you used Battery power it you just run all your engines on two rail track regardless if they were designed for three rail. Assuming the PS1 engine was three rail the flanges might be an issue with two rail switches though.

Pete

To run a  converted 3 rail engine on 2 rai, Aside from removing the center pickups you need closed frog turnouts and code 148 rail

@KarlDL posted:

The tradeoff is between absolute speed and meeting the Soundtraxx 4A stall current limit, so it may not be appropriate for mainline varnish and hotshot freights.  And there's no way to meet the stall current limit in steamers with large can motors.  Once the Blu Shark is finished, an Atlas switcher and possibly a Weaver E8 may be up next on the workbench.

I have a thread somewhere about trying to use a Tsunami 4 amp board with a big Pittman in a premier MTH steamer. I gave up after trying very hard to justify keeping it, and ended up switching it out with a TCSWOW high amp card and it works great.

That 4 amp will not behave long term with your Pittman, regardless of the low draw during normal operation.

@Jeff_the_Coaster_Guy posted:

I have a thread somewhere about trying to use a Tsunami 4 amp board with a big Pittman in a premier MTH steamer. I gave up after trying very hard to justify keeping it, and ended up switching it out with a TCSWOW high amp card and it works great.

That 4 amp will not behave long term with your Pittman, regardless of the low draw during normal operation.

Why do you say that? My MTH Hudson runs fine, will pull a dozen passenger cars without breaking a sweat.

Pete

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...2#175709326167403102

The outer 2-rail loop will be specifically for my 2-rail scale wheeled equipment, with a mixture of 2-rail Atlas sectional track and hand laid Micro Engineering track and turnouts (all C148 rail.)

The inner loop, whether it ends up being two or three rail, will be compatible with the deeper flanged 3R equipment. That inner loop will be hand laid with Micro Engineering c148 rail and utilize PC board ties to eliminate ant protruding spike heads. I only envision one turnout, which will be built to handle 3R wheel flanges.

Scratchbuilding a 3R turnout is the single most challenging thing to me, (other than figuring out the electronics), but hopefully my previous 2-rail turnout building experience from previous layouts will serve me well.

Jeff C

@Jeff_the_Coaster_Guy posted:

I have a thread somewhere about trying to use a Tsunami 4 amp board with a big Pittman in a premier MTH steamer. I gave up after trying very hard to justify keeping it, and ended up switching it out with a TCSWOW high amp card and it works great.

That 4 amp will not behave long term with your Pittman, regardless of the low draw during normal operation.

^^Pete (Norton) seems to have success with his.  I'll give you another option... Search some auction sites for the same size Pittman motor in a higher-voltage winding.  The stock motor is rated for 12VDC.  15.1 or 19 volt winding would be ideal but they are kind of rare.  If you can live with a slower top speed, a 24-volt Pittman is still a drop-in replacement, no machine work is required.  If you install a 19- or 24-volt motor in place of the stock 12V motor, current draw will be greatly reduced and four amps will be plenty.

You'll have to redo your speed curve CVs.  You'll probably get smoother performance / more resolution between speed steps.  The only downside to the motor swap is a lower top speed.

@Jeff_the_Coaster_Guy posted:

I have a thread somewhere about trying to use a Tsunami 4 amp board with a big Pittman in a premier MTH steamer. I gave up after trying very hard to justify keeping it, and ended up switching it out with a TCSWOW high amp card and it works great.

That 4 amp will not behave long term with your Pittman, regardless of the low draw during normal operation.

As a rule, the Pittman won't draw any more current then other motors that would be suitable for powering that MTH steamer, so I don't know how you arrive at that conclusion.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

As a rule, the Pittman won't draw any more current then other motors that would be suitable for powering that MTH steamer, so I don't know how you arrive at that conclusion.

John, the issue was that the 4400 couldn't support the 'stall current' of the motor. I think when running off AC and sending the DC by PWM, the 4400 was seeing the peaks of the pulses as close to stall and would shut down the card using it's own protective circuitry.

Maybe it's different when going directly off DC?

Anyway, you were the first to warn me that the Tsunami 4amp wasn't going to work with my Pittman. But that was a couple years ago.

Here's a link to the thread: https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...7#155293810601170117

True as far as stall current, but then a motor that you would likely find instead of the Pittman also has a stall current far in excess of the 4 amps!  The Mabuchi RS-555 has a stall current of 10.9 amps!

FWIW, a lot of S gaugers do DCC installs in Lionel and AM engines. With a fan driven smoke unit, or two with whistle steam, the TCS WOW 10A decoder is the best choice.

Hope nobody minds me resurrecting this thread. Still trying to get my head around the options available to me on my combined 2-rail/3R layout, looking at the problem specifically from a control standpoint.

The Blunami decoders are basically just Tsunami 2 decoders with Bluetooth capability? Can a three rail locomotive, running on 3R track, equipped with the Blunami (or for that matter the Tsunami 2), run on DC power if the decoder is properly installed?

I now have two 3R steamers, a 3rd Rail Pennsy E6 4-4-2, and the aforementioned (in my earlier post) 3R Weaver Royal Hudson. Is the Blunami (or Tsunami) not a viable option if I want the smoke units to work?

Any help would be hugely appreciated, thanks!

Jeff C

I think it is an NMRA standard that all decoders have the capability to run straight DC.

Also, all decoders have optional output connections/functions that can be used to operate any other electrical/electronic devices.    The important point is to make sure the function connection has sufficient Amperage/current rating for the device you want to install.    The decoder function rating is always listing on the device documentation.

In the case of blunami, your best answer will come directly from Soundtraxx.    You can contact them and ask about your add-on device.

As Jim said, you can run off DC on the rails, two or three. You can power a smoke unit but you have to add a relay to one of the function outputs to handle the higher current. At this time you can not synchronize puff with chuff sounds. To get 4 puffs per rev you can add a switch to power the fan but sound and smoke won’t occur at the same time except by luck.

I would ask how many three rail engines do you have, just the two mentioned or more and do you plan to purchase more? If those are the only two you might consider trying to convert them to two rail. Both should have removable wheelsets  and easier to convert than say a typical Lionel or MTH steam engine.

Pete

I have two steamers, the 3rd Rail 4-4-2 E6, and the Weaver Royal Hudson. In diesels, I have the MTH DL-109/DL-110 2 unit set, and the solitary Atlas B&M unpowered F3B, which was supposed to be a 2-rail loco but is actually 3R.

So not a lot, but still enough to involve time, money, and effort.

My idea at the moment, based on very limited testing (I’ve had very little train time lately due to my music schedule) is to bite things off in small chunks—leaving the steam engines as 3R for now as they visually look great—and going ahead with the three rail/ 2-rail track plan. With my hand laid 3R track it will be easy to pull the center rail later if I want, and it follows that if I have success now installing decoders in the two steamers it should be within my abilities later to modify them to work (as far as the electronics are concerned) for 2-rail.

I’m already planning on converting that B&M F3B to 2-rail, to match my 2-rail A unit. The DL-109/110 pair needs some pilot work and other cosmetics to look right, so it will be a while before I have to make a decision as to whether I want to convert it to 2-rail.

What is the state of the art in electronics for synchronizing chuffs with smoke for 3R steam locos such as mine?

Jeff C

Sounds like going Deadrail with Blunami would be a whole lot easier that trying to configure rail to run both AC and DC.

With Deadrail you could run all of your trains at the same time vs some on AC and then some on DC.

@leikec posted:

I have two steamers, the 3rd Rail 4-4-2 E6, and the Weaver Royal Hudson. In diesels, I have the MTH DL-109/DL-110 2 unit set, and the solitary Atlas B&M unpowered F3B, which was supposed to be a 2-rail loco but is actually.

What is the state of the art in electronics for synchronizing chuffs with smoke for 3R steam locos such as mine?

Jeff C

Not sure about state of the art but Blunami is out. There are other DCC boards that do have a capability to synchronize puff and chuff. You might be able to use those along with a Bluerail board to achieve that. Others more familiar with DCC than I am might be able to help here.

Three rail essentially uses two methods to do this. Tach readers on motor flywheels used by Legacy, DCS, and GRJ’s chuff generator. The other is driven directly by the drivers either by an axle cam or optical detector and lines on the driver itself used on TMCC engines.

Pete

@Norton posted:

You might be able to use those along with a Bluerail board to achieve that. Others more familiar with DCC than I am might be able to help here

Pete

And.... BlueRail runs on AC or DC.  So if the OP used BlueRail board, his favorite sound decoder with chuff sync, then he could run on three rail AC powdered track with no worries of DC.  He would still use the Blunami app for control.

Ron.

@Ron045 posted:

And.... BlueRail runs on AC or DC.  So if the OP used BlueRail board, his favorite sound decoder with chuff sync, then he could run on three rail AC powdered track with no worries of DC.  He would still use the Blunami app for control.

Ron.

Ron, can you suggest a 4 amp or greater DCC decoder that has an input for an external chuff switch? This would be the route I would go for steam upgrades. I am assuming a Bluerail board just converts bluetooth signals to DCC code that any DCC decoder would respond to.

Pete

@Norton posted:

Ron, can you suggest a 4 amp or greater DCC decoder that has an input for an external chuff switch? This would be the route I would go for steam upgrades. I am assuming a Bluerail board just converts bluetooth signals to DCC code that any DCC decoder would respond to.

Pete

Pete,

I'm not well versed enough in the DCC world to answer the chuff question.  I just know BlueRail provides the power and control.  They advertise that you can use your favorite DCC sound decoder.

I did convert a steam engine to RailPro that connects and utilizes the MTH tac reader for chuff sync.  But that's not DCC and can not utilize AC track power either.  The op would be back to using DC power again.

Ron

The Loksound 5 XL has 5 amp motor drive and 3 trigger inputs. If you combine with Bluerail you can achieve bluetooth control and synchronized chuff. You would of course have to power the smoke unit as well as the decoder and the bluerail.

I have personally used three widely-available high-power (5A) DCC decoders that provide a) synchronized chuffs that control a smoke unit fan and b) provide load-dependent smoke unit heating:

1. TCS WOW501-Steam
2. LokSound 5XL
3. Zimo Large Decoders (e.g., MX699): I have not tried the newer Zimo MS990 series

I have used all of these in my Dead Rail installs coupled with my Airwire-compatible ProMiniAir Receivers (available on eBay) that supply amplified DCC (up to 13A with NO cooling) to these decoders. These decoders should work with any Dead Rail receiver that produces sufficiently powerful DCC output. I love smoke units and have installed them in all of my 90+ installs, some of which are shown on my website OScaleDeadRail.com.

Great info guys. I will be looking into these. Thank you.

Pete

3 Rail Williams 4-6-0 running on 16VAC track voltage (Lionel 1033). Chuffing smoke is via GRJ's Chuff Generator and Super Chuffer back feeding into a WOW501 Steam DCC card. In this video the loco has a BluerailDCC 5A card supplying the DCC to the WOWsound 501.

@BobbyDing posted:

3 Rail Williams 4-6-0 running on 16VAC track voltage (Lionel 1033). Chuffing smoke is via GRJ's Chuff Generator and Super Chuffer back feeding into a WOW501 Steam DCC card. In this video the loco has a BluerailDCC 5A card supplying the DCC. I've since had to remove the BluerailDCC card and am now running from straight DCC on the track.

Looks like it runs very well and smoke is synchronized. Did it run as well with the BluerailDCC board? Also where do you get Bluerail DCC? Their website just transfers me to Tam Valley and Tam Valley doesn’t show that board. I assume a 2 amp board is sufficient if I want to use someone else’s DCC board as you did.

Pete

@Norton posted:

Looks like it runs very well and smoke is synchronized. Did it run as well with the BluerailDCC board? Also where do you get Bluerail DCC? Their website just transfers me to Tam Valley and Tam Valley doesn’t show that board. I assume a 2 amp board is sufficient if I want to use someone else’s DCC board as you did.

Pete

NOTE:  Cross promoting is not allowed to other sites or member for sale posts thus this part of the post was removed.

Ron, if you are using a 5 amp DCC board, do you have to use a 5 amp BluerailDCC board or will a 2 amp board work. I guess the real question does required DCC decoder board like the Soundtraxx 4400 amperage come from the Bluerail board or can DC be supplied from some other source like a battery or DC buck board directly to the Soundtraxx board?

Pete

@Norton, the BluerallDCC card is in use during the video. It's what allowed me to run on 16VAC (the WOW card does not). Both the BluerailDCC and the WOW cards are the 5A versions. The 2A boards would work depending on how much it's dragging of course. I went 5A because it was my first time attempting any loco upgrade. Better too much than too little. I have longer videos on my youtube account where I try different whistles, etc. I have to say that the BluerailDCC cards by Tam Valley are excellent. They just work. I was hoping to install them in all my steam locos.  Unfortunately I've had to remove them instead due to delivery issues. If you choose to use the same combo of cards I used (BluerailDCC / WOW501 card) I may be able to save you some time filling you in on the few querks I needed to work around with this particular board combo. Also, just know that in the end this loco cost me as much as a low end LC+2.0 loco after adding the cost of the loco, both cards, Super chuffer, MTH smoke unit, etc... On the plus side, it was fun to build, nobody else offers this loco with command and if anything ever goes wrong with it I can fix it myself. In fact I'm thinking about installing an MTH tether, as my home made job looks terrible (it was my first attempt after all).

@Ron045, I emailed you last week at the email addess in your info regarding the cards you're selling. Since I did not get a response I assumed they were sold.

Updated: After seeing the newest catalog. I've changed "this loco cost me as much as a low end Legacy loco" to "this loco cost me as much as a LC+2.0 loco". 😱  Seems it won't be too long before I can change that to just "a LC loco".

Bobby, thanks for the clarification. I agree having to use a Bluerail card plus a DCC board with chuff in makes it not cost effective vs other types of Command upgrades. Still  it offers user flexibility that is not available with TMCC/Legacy and marginally with DCS.

I think its a great option for someone just getting started plus it allows concurrent operation with other Command systems on AC power. No way I can convert over completely at this point though.

Pete

@BobbyDing posted:

@Ron045, I emailed you last week at the email addess in your info regarding the cards you're selling. Since I did not get a response I assumed they were sold.

Just sent you a PM.  No email in my inbox or spam.

Ron

I’m looking at doing my first locomotive set, a powered Atlas 3R F3a/unpowered F3b pair, using the Blunami running off battery power. There should be plenty of room between the two engines to fit everything, considering that the F3b is unpowered.

Any suggestions on an appropriately sized battery pack to allow a reasonable amount of run time before charging? Would a 4 cell 18650 pack work?

I still feel like I have a ton of learning to do regarding this, but I am so very appreciative of the wisdom and great advice gained from all of you! Thank you so much!

Jeff C

@leikec posted:

I’m looking at doing my first locomotive set, a powered Atlas 3R F3a/unpowered F3b pair, using the Blunami running off battery power. There should be plenty of room between the two engines to fit everything, considering that the F3b is unpowered.

Any suggestions on an appropriately sized battery pack to allow a reasonable amount of run time before charging? Would a 4 cell 18650 pack work?

I still feel like I have a ton of learning to do regarding this, but I am so very appreciative of the wisdom and great advice gained from all of you! Thank you so much!

Jeff C

Jeff.  I don't know what the Atlas configuration looks like, but I did MTH F7's and did not need the B unit for battery.  Everything fit in the A unit.  LiIon 14.8v 3000mah with a Smart Charger should work nicely in either of these configurations.  Remember to ensure it has a protection circuit for over charge/discharge. 

I like MTO batteries.  XML's appear to work the same at a discount price.  I have recently tried HJE batts and have no complaints there either.

Got my electrocoupler interface installed and working.  It's essentially a single-transistor (per coupler) current booster, powered from the DC>DC converter/regulator output and drawing only a few mA from the Blunami FX3 & FX4 outputs.  Here are pix showing it (small purple board) mounted at the rear end of my Blu Shark.  Mounting atop the rear weight isn't the most convenient location, but I didn't plan for the board when I mounted the components between the motors - and wasn't in the mood to re-do all of that.

As you can see from the picture, it's a retro trip to '70s-'80s technology, as nearly all parts in my inventory come from that era and I have zero SMT skills.  A SMT version of this board would be quite smaller, but it's not very big, as it is.  2-pin JST connectors on the left side are rear electrocoupler, power, and front electrocoupler.  3-pin JST connector on the right side is FX3/4 input connection.

The rear electrocoupler will be mounted in the "B" unit (along with marker and backup lights), once I get the tether (4-pin) mounting location at the rear of the A unit defined better.

So Karl, did you have a PC board made for that coupler circuit? Very neat job.

Pete

@Norton posted:

So Karl, did you have a PC board made for that coupler circuit? Very neat job.

Pete

Yes, prototype run of 3 boards.  Layout was tightened after they were made, so the present version is slightly smaller.

My second Blunami conversion is now finished, the Blu Geep.  It's an MTH passenger GP-9 from the mid-1990s.  Fitting the circuit boards into this locomotive was far more challenging than it was for the Baldwin Shark, due to the narrow hood.  I ended up layering the cards and components.  Here's the completed locomotive guts.

The FWB rectifier is mounted underneath the converter/regulator board, adjacent to the left-hand motor.  The Blunami card is mounted to the right of the former board, with the electrocoupler interface mounted atop the Blunami card.

As in the Blu Shark, 2mm bi-color marker LEDs were added and the headlamps were replaced with high-intensity 3mm LEDs, at both ends.  Here 'tis in "forward" mode (the NYC ran these long hood forward), with green markers:

And in reverse, with red markers:

I left the cab lighting alone, but moved the engineer figure to the opposite side of the cab to comport with NYC operating practice.

A complete write-up is included as the final Appendix to my AC interfacing guide document, found here: https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...c/177398551947214218

Very nicely done @KarlDL

Anyone using these currently (installed) with older MTH or Lionel Post War?

My MTH Baldwin Sharknose and passenger GP9 from the '90s were converted.  The problem with Lionel PW locomotives is the Pullmor AC motor - Blunami is designed to work with DC can motors.  Some MPC and LTI era locos use DC can motors, which are compatible.

The often cited bridge rectifier based conversion circuit can be used to have universal motors react to DC like can motors.

The problem with Pullmors is they have a wound field and draw more current than a Blunami can handle safely.

Pete