BPRC RK Imperial 0-6-0 Video

Impressive! What R/C components and speed control unit did you use in your conversion?

Bill in FtL

Hi Bob, 

Thanks for the info, do you recharge the battery by plugging the charger into a jack on the loco, or does it work through the rail pickup (DC or AC?)? Also, do you know if they offer a receiver that will work in a diesel with two motors (higher amps)?

Bill in FtL

Bill,

I recharge the batteries by plugging a charger into a jack on the tender, no power to the rails.

The 2-8-0 has the jack under the removable "coal" load (I can leave it on the track), the 0-6-0 and 4-8-4 have the jack under the floor so I have to turn the tender on its side to charge.  Both probably could have been done so the jack is under the coal but for some reason I decided to put them underneath.  The 0-6-0 has the on/off switch under the coal but the 4-8-4 has it underneath, I can turn it on with it on the track.

The Rx (includes the Electronic Speed Control ESC) is rated for 3 amps.  I have pulled 4 Weaver aluminum cars with the 4-8-4 (the J weighs 14+ lbs and each car weighs 2 lbs) and 7 cars of aluminum or plastic design without overload (the Rx comes with polyswitch circuit protectors).

Tony has a 6amp Rx unit but I believe it's a bit bigger than the one I listed.

I tested all of my steamers and they all had current readings of around 75 milliamps.  The 4-8-4 had the highest (think it was 2.5) but I replaced the original (bent shaft) motor with a Pittman motor from P&D Hobbies and haven't measured it since.

I don't miss all the PS2/TMCC sounds, I hardly ever used the whistle/horn/bell anyway, the steam chuff is probably the one sound I would like to have (maybe an under the layout module with speakers around the layout would do, instead of inside the engine).

I used some LED assys from Evans for headlights and backup lights, may eventually install some marker lamps on the engines (not on the tenders).

The only "trouble" I've had is interpreting the English used by the Aussies and the Brits   They just don't say things the way we do in the US   or it could be they're too technical for my old, tired brain.  Some of the posts we've made on the FreeRails forum basically said the same thing just in different ways.

The system was easy to hookup after I gutted the engines by removing everything PS2/TMCC and just leaving the DC motor in place.  Had to drill a hole for the on/off switch and one for the charging jack.  The biggest issue I had was determining what size/shape battery pack I could install.  I believe I could go with something smaller than the 2000/2200 Mah packs I used and still get enough run time.  But the engines do seem to respond better to the 11.1v Lipo than the 9.6v NiMh, again I think it's in part because of the lower internal resistance of the LiPo batteries.  It could also be the gearing of the 4-8-4 (42/43:1) and the 0-6-0.

My next 2 will be the Williams brass 2-8-2 Mike and the scratchbuilt 4-6-0 on a Weaver chassis.  I'm expecting the parts to come in this week.

Thanks Bob!

I like the concept of R/C, but I'm still waffling on the batteries and chargers. Currently I have a LionChief Plus Mikado that I'm very fond of, and the big advantage of battery power to me would be to eliminate the third rail and the need for insulated wheels & turnout rails (pretty tempting!).

Bill in FtL

I may be mistaken, but doesn't PS2 sound boards run on DC current?

Bill,

I agree about the 3rd rail and wheels.

I've been using 2000-2200 Mah batteries, but I feel going lower would work as well because I'm getting more than enough run time on a charge.  My 2000 batteries are 9.6v NiMh and my 2200 batteries are 11.1 LiPo.  I'm thinking 1000Mah would work, but I like the performance of the 11.1 LiPo better.

Penn-Pacific, not sure but if that is the case then I wonder if PS2 sound cards can be wired to the receivers I'm using?

RCS makes a module that goes between the Rx and different sounds cards.  Their diagrams show setups for the "MyLocoSound", Phoenix P8, and Dallee Steam Sound cards.

To tell you the truth, I'm not even sure which circuit card on a PS2 kit is the sound card

I'll try to find out what voltages are available coming out to activate those sound cards, maybe the PS2 card can also be used!

PS/2 "sound cards" don't exist as a stand-alone unit, PS/2 is an integrated board set with sound and control.

Do you think it is possible to integrate PS2 with the system Bob's using,as a stand alone system, sans track power?

I haven't really thought it through, but I feel it's unlikely.  PS2/3 needs the DCS signal coming in to react properly.

After running BPRC for a few weeks now I can say I don't miss the sounds at all.  If I ever decide to add sound it'll only be the steam chuff.  I've looked for a simple chuff circuit but so far haven't come across one, but I know they're out there.  What I need to find out is what voltage and current is good for the ALPHA 3v2 Rx (on the left) and LT-SW4v2 (on the right) sound trigger boards:

You can run a PS_2 board of the battery, but as John states you need a DCS signal.  The G guys put a TIU in a car, a battery in another and via tethers have an integrated train that runs on its own with DCS.  You could run it on your kitchen floor if you wanted.

For O you would need a device that could regulate the Battery voltage and change polarity.  At that point you could run conventional.  But no bell or whistle sounds.  Just engine sounds.   G

Here's the diagram for the RCS system I have, showing the Dallee Steam Sound card:

I have the LT-SW4v2 board but have not installed it yet due to not having a sound card to connect to it.

I wonder if you could do the TIU trick with the DCS Remote Commander?  That would replace the TIU.  Also, the polarity issue should be gone when the PS/3 boards are available, right?

Not sure John, but I think I'm going to stay with what I have in these engines, I'm trying to get away from all the complicated systems and this RCS system is simple enough I don't want to start experimenting.

$$$-wise it makes no sense (removing perfectly good PS2 guts), but I've always wanted to try battery-powered RC and no power to the track.

So far so good!

It has some attractions, but I think I'll wait until I can have good sound, smoke, etc.

John,

From what I've seen, it's the battery that's preventing BPRC from really taking off.

The Receiver/ESC module, the on/off module, and charging jack could all be all be combined on one small circuit board, I would think for less than the going price (<$100) now.  The batteries I've used so far (11.1 Lipo and 9.6 NiMh) are approx the same size (1"x1-3/8"x4-1/8"), they make a 12v, 1400Mah, NiMh that is 2.3"x1.3"x1.1" but were out of them last time I checked.  I think the 1400Mah would be fine, maybe could go even less and still get an hour or 2 run time.

I'm doing my 4th conversion today (Williams brass 2-8-2) and feel with every installation I'm learning how to make things smaller and fit better (wiring can be a PITA, always in the way), maybe if all the components were on 1 board most of the wiring would disappear.  Next up is a 4-6-0 I scratchbuilt using a Weaver chassis and the brass tender from the 2-8-2.

I'm using the 10-pin connectors found on MTH steamers with the straight 10-pin wiring harness.  So far all I've wired in is the motor, headlight, and backup light (2 of my engines don't have backup lights, strange but the photos I have of the real one didn't show them).

I had to go to the local RC shop this morning to get some extension cables with Deans connectors and noticed they have a lot of small battery packs that may be the answer I'm looking for.

Of all the things, the battery size is the one drawback.  Sound is the other, but I can take it or leave it.  No smoke but I took all mine out a while back.  I'm sure it could be sued, these kits are being used in G scale engines with smoke.

On the plus side:

No more expensive transformers and all the command stuff between it and the track

No more track wiring

No more cleaning track

No more worries about short circuits on the track

Still need power to control any switches and things like a turntable, I'm using wallwarts for power now

I could wire in class lights, marker lights, etc but the more I read on how the real ones were used the more I think I don't need them for running a train on the main and one switching.

Anyhoo, I'm having fun

You're having fun, that's all that counts.

It's great to see someone having fun with battery powered RC operation. I used a 9.6V 2000mah NiMH battery from Tenergy in my setup that was described in the Oct. 2014 LCCA club magazine. What form of engine speed control are you using? I found that for battery operation, PWM was the best. What effective control range did you get with the Deltang units? One nice feature with battery power is that you can run your trains anywhere. Your list of the benefits of battery power was right on the money. Keep going!

Bob,

The Rx(s) I've been getting from Tony at RCS have the ESC built-in, not sure about PWM but I'll look into it (probably forgotten what it was!).

Right now I have 3 LiPo 2200 Mah and 2 NiMh 2000 Mah batteries, want to try one under 1500 Mah (12v if I can find it) to see how long it lasts.  I ran one engine off a LiPo for what seemed like 4-5 hours, maybe longer, before it needed charging.

No idea on max range, but it's working fine in my 12x12 room.

I've got 1 Rx that seems to have settings different than what I want, waiting on email back from Tony to see if it's something in the programming I can fix or if I need to send it back.  The throttle seems to be set for "center" operation, whereas the throttle knob is turn from center-CW to move forward and from center-CCW to move backwards (it should be from I want full CCW to full CW for the speed range).  The direction knob has no effect and if I'm reading the Deltang directions correctly all it takes is to reprogram the Rx, something I have already done before on other Rx(s) to modify other functions.  I don't think it's a hardware issue with the Rx.

Just a quick note...I fixed the speed/direction issues ON MY OWN!

I feel like a real geek now.  I "played" around with the programming (I knew I would be close) and 1st got the throttle range fixed, but the motor went in reverse no matter which way I turned the Fwd/Rev knob.  I read a bit more and found the last number of the 5-digit code needed to be on a different "channel" so I went back in and changed the code for it.

All is well, now I can button it up and put it on the track!

Got a reply from Tony and he said he has been sending all Rx out with the throttle at "Center Off" and said I made the right change to get it to "Low (fully CCW) Off".

Another plus, I can add/remove cars in a train anytime now without having to worry about shorting across the rails.  I was always leery of doing that especially when dealing with lighted passenger cars.  Of course now if I want lights I'll have to make them battery operated

3 more steamers to go!

Here I thought you were going for "simplicity".

HA, good one John!  I guess everything has some drawbacks

I could have left it alone, but it would have been opposite/different from the other 3 I have already installed.  Re-programming was fairly easy, once I got past some of the "lingo" the Aussies and Brits use.

Each module comes with a sheet of instructions for installation and there's a link to the codes used by Deltang, most of which I'll never use.

The problem I'm having now is with my Weaver/hybrid 4-6-0, can't keep traction tires on it.  It's got a Weaver chassis and I scratchbuilt the boiler (used a MTH 2-8-0 Cab), the tender is from a Williams brass 2-8-2:

The grooves are very thin and narrow, none of the MTH tires I have fit and the tires I recently bought from Weaver are too big as well, they're too thick and too wide.  The thickness isn't as much of a problem as the width, maybe I can turn the engine over and trim them while the wheels are rotating.  I've run it without tires, but it can't pull many cars at all without the tires.

Update, I believe I've fixed the tires.  I turned the engine over and while running it used a sharp Xacto blade to cut the width of each tire so they would fit inside the grooves, maybe took 1/32" off the width.  Ran it for 20+ minutes without issues.  If this doesn't continue to work the next thing is to sand down the thickness.  Seems to be pulling better, now that the tires are sitting flat.

Bob, I thought I gave you a Lionel part # for thin tires that fit the Williams and Early Weaver brass? 

You know there is an American company that sells RC Wireless/batteries for trains right?  http://www.cvpusa.com/airwire_system.php

G

George, you may have when you sent me those tires for the Williams J, I'll have to see if I still have the number.

I could never figure out if the CVP unit required a DCC card or if it could be used without one.  In my searching for BPRC I came across the Freerails site and most folks were talking about the Deltang system, which RCS Australia uses/modifies.

Once you have a transmitter and battery charger, the cost of a single engine conversion is approx $120.  I think that was overall the most inexpensive system (of course, no sound, MyLocoSound is another $85).  I've been getting the shipment from Australia in 10 days after I place my order.  The RCS website shows a US dealer in NJ but I can't find the product on their website.

There was a post about someone using RTV to "make" traction tires by filling the groove in the wheels, maybe you could try that technique?

John,

Apparently trimming the width of the tires did the trick.  Wasn't hard to do, just need to be careful on the initial placement of the blade and force when making the cut, a sharp blade will do the rest.

I ran it another 1/2 hour without any tires coming off.

I need to add some piping to that Ten-Wheeler.  The boiler was cut out of PVC round stock on my mini-lathe.  I didn't weigh it but it felt as heavy as the diecast boiler (I guess because the cab is diecast and it has a lot of brass parts on it).  The photo makes it look like the nose is higher than the cab but it's the way I took the photo (glad I don't have to make a living in photography )

That works, I've had to trim tires on a Weaver brass loco as well because I couldn't find the proper ones for it.  All's well that ends well.

After dealing with the complexities of TMCC, in 2011 I built my first R/C system using a direct handheld transmitter to loco wireless link. I used track power initially and didn't convert to battery power until early in 2014. For motor speed control, my first design varied the DC voltage to the loco can motors using an adjustable voltage regulator chip. I found that for battery operation, PWM was more efficient and would yield longer running time. Either approach provided very smooth loco speed control. Finding room for the circuit board was always an issue. The first control board was installed in a tool car which followed the loco. Power was supplied to the loco via a small plug-in cable. On my second pass, I installed the control board in the dummy A unit of an ALCO AA pair. The RF links work at different frequencies, so I can run more than one loco at a time. Nice feature is that I can pack up my trains and run them on anybody's layout anywhere.

No DCC Card required and it works with any DCC compatible sound card.  G

Thanks George!

I'm slowly getting the things together we talked about, I'll get with you soon

Bob Walker,

It does use PWM, here's the blurb on Deltang's site:

M_PWM] - PWM FREQUENCY

Motor speed is regulated with PWM. The default PWM frequency is 'auto' which uses the fastest available (eg: 12kHz, 16kHz). This can be changed to fixed frequencies for special effects. For instance lower frequencies have more torque but are less smooth and make more motor noise. 15Hz makes a motor in a boat sound like a pop-pop motor.

I haven't played with these settings, the default gives the smooth, low motor noise I want.

Bob D. Thanks for the PWM update. I had pretty much assumed that would be the case, especially for battery operation. The two PWM based control modules I built used slightly different pulse frequencies, but I did not see any difference in motor control performance.

 I am studying the Deltang and rcs websites to get a better understanding of their product line. We may be only a short distance away from the general adoption of battery power for OGauge trains. Time will tell.

Bob,

David Theunissen (DavidT) is the owner of Deltang and Tony Walsham is the owner of RCS, both visit the Freerails forum regularly and would be glad to answer any questions you have.

We may be only a short distance away from the general adoption of battery power for OGauge trains.

I think you're right, I'm pretty excited about it, I should have all 7 of my steam engines converted by the end of summer.

I ran a 1-hour session last night and the electronic systems performed as I expected, great!  With no sound but that of the wheels on the tracks (and other creaky things) I get a better sense of how the engines are running.  I've noticed my 2-8-2 slows down a bit on an 054 curve (not all the 054 curves though) that's on the branch off the main (072), I think it's caused by some ballast interfering between the rails so I need to clean them out.  Didn't notice it before when using DCS, maybe the cruise control masked it?

I'm looking to replace my 3-rail track with 2-rail, if I can find a place that carries ME flex-track and Atlas #5 switches for a reasonable price.  I was thinking of cutting out the center rail but now I'm thinking of trying to save it and give it and my diesels to my 2 grandsons (1 is 4 yrs old and the other is "negative" 3 months, coming in Sept/Oct )

Running on batteries opens all kinds of new ways to run our trains, doesn't it?

I thought I'd mention that one feature I later added to my home grown systems was an on board visual speed monitor. An LED wired across the PWM feed to the loco motors does the job. The intensity of the LED is proportional to the power being delivered to the motors and hopefully the resultant speed of the loco. It takes a lot of the guesswork out of trying to figure out why something may not be working. I haven't seen this feature on any available systems so far, but it is helpful.

With the RCS system when power is turned on (Tx, then Rx) the headlight flashes briefly, indicating the RX found the Tx is bound (binded?) to.  If not a headlight flash, it either hasn't found a Tx or (because I used the old MTH PS2 connector on the rear of the engines and a straight tether to run wires between the engine and tender electronics) the tether isn't connected properly.

When the onboard Rx battery is getting low, the engine will start then stop, time for a recharge.  So far I'm still using the original 9v battery in the Tx (that's good news, they're not cheap).  I was going to get rechargeable 9v batteries but they're even more expensive and that's another charger I would need.  I'll see how long the existing battery goes then decide.

Seems like I read the Tx/Rx has 256 speed steps but I can't find the paperwork that said that.  The "Throttle" knob has 300 degrees of movement, but there's no indent so it's hard to judge those "speed steps" and takes some getting used to.

I look at those banks of ZW transformers or PowerHouse 180 bricks and tell myself I don't need them or all that expense anymore.

If someone who was getting into O scale/gauge from ground zero, I'd tell them to look into BPRC, no wiring, no huge transformers, TIUs, or Command Bases.

No reason this couldn't be added to any locomotive, regardless of the command system.  I do a variation on this theme with a little board I developed to add some functionality and detect if the engine was moving or stopped.

John, your comment just made me think (oh no!!!):

What components (would it be only the stuff to convert AC to DC?) on a PS2 board would have to be bypassed to use a battery pack to power the unit?  Would it be possible?