Brand new to the hobby-need some guidance

Well from my experience, I just gather what track I already have and throw it all on the table to make a crude design in my mind. I stay away from SCARM and other track programs simply because it takes to much time for me. Also when building layouts I try to be as cheap as possible which works most of the time. This helps as I have a lionel postwar layout and I'm able to slap a green carpet down and call that scenery. I also buy cheap but great looking plasticville buildings which fit in greatly with the theme. Wiring the layout is simple as I can't solder and wouldn't waste the money and time to buy a soldering gun. Thus I just wrap bare wire around more bare wire and wrap that with electrical tape which I extend to other areas of the layout that require more power. 

Now aside from that mess, I also have an HO layout. I don't have a buss wire system for that but I would say when ballasting you have to make a certain mixture of glue and water.. It's like 40% water and 60% glue... I'm probably wrong on that but oh well. 

Keep in mind that S scale locomotives typically require wider radius curves than AF/High Rail.

I should add that I bought two very good books. The Essentials of Track Building and the Essentials of Benchwork. 

David

My sentiments are similar to Joe's.  Take whatever you may already have and play with it a bit before actually building a serious layout.  Go slow.  There is way too much information and products out there to dive too deeply into any one option.  But most of all, have fun doing it.

Before you commit to a scale, I suggest you take a look at what is available.

HO probably has the widest variety of product, followed by "N" gauge.
Then I think it would be "O", followed by "S".

That written, the popularity of "S" scale certainly does appear to be growing.
Have fun!

Thanks for your comments so far. Actually, I don't have anything yet. Except the table.

David

First, I am in O gauge and don't know a lot about S gauge other than I have always thought it is just about the perfect scale for the reasons you describe in your original post, size, looks, 2 rails, etc. I just about went into S scale when I got back in the hobby a few years ago, but the lack of product sent me back to O gauge which I was already familiar with from my youth. Anyway here are a few comments for whatever they are worth, but probably not a lot.

RR-Track has several S gauge track libraries, but it's a pay program and not free like SCARM. I use RR-Track, I had it before SCARM came out. RR-track was once the best available, I don't know if that is still true or no though, but I believe it still has the best selection of libraries of anything available. I have no personal experience with SCARM.

Gargraves makes S gauge track. It is quite similar to Ross with wood ties and has been a favorite with many O gaugers. It's also made in the USA and they have been around for years. I would also think it should be readily available. Ballast should be no problem, I am not sure about the cork, but I don't imagine that would be a problem either. I believe that Lionel and MTH have both been making S gauge track, but I sometimes see folks here that are waiting on certain pieces to be made so I don't know about the supply availability of those tracks? Some of the posts above about experimenting with different track layouts is also good advice, it will give you some ideas about what works and what might not. Also will probably help you with your final plan.

I have both Lionel Legacy and MTH DCS systems with my O gauge, but I also really like DCC, I find it very interesting. The NEC system, also made here in the USA, would be my choice. It's my favorite out of all the ones I have read about. I hope to add an NCE system to my layout someday to go along with my other systems. One additional thing to fiddle with (and I like to fiddle with the electronics parts of the hobby). Both Lionel and MTH are also now making S gauge products so you could use those systems as well, if you ever wanted to. 

As for engines and rolling stock, the selections in S scale are somewhat limited. If you have a small layout this could be an advantage as you wouldn't have so many things to be tempted to purchase. I like the selections we have in O gauge, but I have a lot more than will fit on my layout so I am not sure that is the best thing to have. Sounded good at first, but a more limited selection could definitely be an advantage and a lot less tempting.

Good luck with your layout and please keep us posted on your progress. Pictures always welcome.

I just got into the hobby earlier this year and did a lot of research.  I too recommend RR-Track CAD software.  Libraries of available products are excellent.  I created 2 track plans with 2 different brands to see which I liked better. I had a great deal of fun designing my layout with it, and it allowed me to buy exact quantities of my supplies. I ultimately chose Fastrack because I wanted easily set up turnouts that could be controlled with the wireless remote control.

Repeat to your self; "Do not spend any money on RR stuff for at least 6 months".  If you do not listen to your self please listen to me.  You will regret most everything purchased at the outset of being new into model trains.

Visit lots of model RRs, all scales.  Ask advice of those who have actually built something.  Many forums feature phantom experts.  My favorite signature:  "I'm not an expert, I just play one on the forum".

Good advice, all.

I'd also suggest subscribing to Model Railroader magazine in that it addresses many different scales, has a lot of 'how to' articles and generally is written with the new hobbyist in mind.

I agree with Tom Tee to a point. buy a inexpensive O gauge layout and a A.F. ( if you can find one that works , that is inexpensive ) and put both around your tree this year and see which you like better. Sell the other after christmas. Don't go overboard till you have time to make sure what you want. Also ( yes they make kits to do it for you but ) remember that you can't do a reverse loop with S Scale with out special wiring. ( I'm not that up on electronics so it would be a challenge for me probably even with the kit lol ) 

Dave,

I admit it, I am partial to S Gauge.  It's a good time for us now, lots of manufacturer's in this scale today.

Below is a link to the ACSG club I belong to, you can spend some time checking out peoples layouts, supplier links, show photo's and videos etc:

http://sgaugers.org/index.html

Keep asking questions, that's how I learn.

Welcome to S,

Aflyer

First, get Scenery Unlimited's catalog, it's where you'll find the most in S between two covers.

Another good place to do some research is the National Association of S Gaugers site.

If you're considering the scale side, SU carries Shinohora S Scale code 100 track and turnouts (switches.)  I've had their track in service on my layout for 30 years.  (Plus a couple of Old pullman's, no longer available...) 

I used a roadbed product called Homasote product called Homa-bed rather than cork directly on plywood.  It's not any better or worse than cork, it's what was easily available when I started.  Once scenery goes down, it hardly matters what's under the track.

And yes, you can "blow up" an HO track plan.  My plan is basically an ancient Atlas HO snap-track plan for a 4'X6' platform, modified and expanded for an approximate 12'x18' space.  No track planning software here.  Here's my 30 year old freehand drawing of it.  The weird shape was dictated by the basement usage.

Some minor changes were needed in going from 2 dimensions to 3, but the essence remains.  Mainline radii is 33" and 29" respectively.  It will handle my scale wheeled American Models Santa Fe Northern with no issues.

Currently the railroad will run DC or DCC.  It was initially set up for two DC throttles and when I decided to get a DCC system (MRC's Prodigy2) I simply removed one of the DC throttles and wired in the DCC system.  I run mostly my straight DC stuff, though.

Take your time, however.  S isn't as easy to get into as it was 15-20 years ago due to a change in the manufacturing invironment that it still hasn't quite recovered from. 

Lionel and MTH aside, S consists of relatively small manufacturers, some are even part-time.  It can be a little frustrating, but can also be very rewarding.

Rusty

Thanks to all for your suggestions and comments. It turns out that I'll be able to have an L-shaped table. One side will be 12' x 6' and one 4' x 8'. I like the idea of starting with a simple layout and going from there. With regard to to the homasote covering, that also seems to work well for a lot of people. 

Can't wait to start.

Thanks All,

David

Just to make sure I understand, can somebody explain the difference between      S-scale track and Hi-Rail track. I'm asking since I'm specifically interested in            S-scale.

Thanks,

David

Suggest you read this page from the NASG website:

http://www.nasg.org/NewToS.php 

Hi Chuck,

Thanks for the link. It does help. So it seems that some track manufacturers are S-scale and some are S-gauge. I plan to give Scenery unlimited a call. They are Chicago-based, which is where I live,

David

Scale track has a lower profile than high rail. The profile of the rail is described with a code number. Code 172 would be considered high rail. Code 125 could be considered scale, but only if representing a heavy rail on a main line. For running trains, it really doesn't matter until you come to turnouts (switches) or crossings. The turnouts are designed for either scale wheels or high rail wheels, but not both. Scale wheels are, just that, scale, while high rail wheels have over-sized flanges.

David,

Here are two S scale links and one general model railroad resource to review:

S Scale Special Interest Group:  http://sscale.org/

S Scale Resource Magazine :  http://sscaleresource.com/

Model Railroad Hobbyist Magazine:  http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/

....and the National Model Railroad Association:  http://www.nmra.org

 Enjoy!

David Shapiro posted:

Just to make sure I understand, can somebody explain the difference between      S-scale track and Hi-Rail track. I'm asking since I'm specifically interested in            S-scale.

Thanks,

David

Pretty much code 125 and above rail in S is considered Hi-rail, but it's not written in stone.   Anything less than code 125 and the flanges of Hi-rail or Flyer equipment may start bumping on the ties.  These images of a truck of the Lionel SD70 illustrate the difference in wheel flanges.  It should also be noted the Hi-rail wheel tread is wider than the scale wheel tread.

Hi-rail:

Scale:

The crucial point between scale and hi-rail track is the gap of the flangeways and frogs in the turnouts.  These gaps need to be wider than on scale track for the deep flanged American Flyer and hi-rail wheelsets to pass through. 

To better illustrate, this is a Hi-rail car on a (code 100) scale frog.  While this car will roll pretty well on scale track, the turnouts are impassable as the flange rides up on the frogs guard rail:

This is why Fox Valley will be offering turnouts as Scale or Hi-rail versions.

Hope this is of some help.

Rusty

Hi Rusty and Keith,

Very, very helpful. This particularly true since I haven't bought anything yet. Is Fox Valley filling an unmet need, or will it be competing with other established manufacturers? I'm asking since I'm itching to get started, once the tables are set up.

David

Another question.  Does that mean that some or all the new American Flyer or American Model or MTH trains ( i have no interest in vintage)  won't work in an S-Scale layout because of the wheel size?  That is to say, if I get code 100 track and switches , how can I be sure of the flange size of the cars?  Do the manufacturers specify which type of track that they are building for?  I have my eye on a beautiful Southern Pacific Crescent Line set on Ebay. If the Hi-rail stock won't run on S-scale switches, then is it possible to modify them so that they will? Am I even asking the right questions here?

Thanks,

David

David Shapiro posted:

Hi Rusty and Keith,

Very, very helpful. This particularly true since I haven't bought anything yet. Is Fox Valley filling an unmet need, or will it be competing with other established manufacturers? I'm asking since I'm itching to get started, once the tables are set up.

David

A little of both.

Lionel and MTH have their track systems: Lionel with their S FasTrack and MTH with (the former S Helper Service) S-Trax.  Both these systems have molded plastic roadbed and are compatible with each other with a minor modification to the roadbed.  MTH/SHS on left, Lionel on right:

It's my understanding that the Fox Valley track will use the same code rail as Lionel and MTH, so it should be compatible with both with some roadbed underneath.  I'm told the Lionel and MTH turnouts will run scale wheels, but I've never tried it.  The sharp diverging route (20" radius) would seriously limit the type of scale equipment run over them.

American Model uses a larger rail size (code 148) and their turnouts and crossings are set up for Hi-rail/Flyer wheels.  The flangeways can be modified to run scale wheeled equipment over them.

Shinohara and Tomalco are code 100 and turnouts are set up for scale wheels only.

Gar-Graves and traditional tubular Flyer track are not desirable for scale operation.

As long as your considering scale, I would suggest getting an oval of MTH S-Trax 15" straights and 30" radius curves to get the feel of things.

Rusty

As commented by others, track is relatively easy to find, turnouts are the challenge if you want to operate both scale and high rail equipment. I have .138 rail which is the SHS/MTH track. It accommodates both scale and high rail wheelsets. The turnouts are handlaid .138 rail on modified FasTrack jigs. These turnouts will run both scale and high rail wheelsets. The trick is in the spacing of the guard and wing rails as well as the depth of the nylon frog inserts. Tom Stoltz has videos demonstrating this at tomsturnouts.com. By the way, the Lionel and the MTH turnouts shown above are closed frog design so they will allow scale wheels to operate if the cars can get through the small radius. The advantage of selecting .125 rail, or .100 is all the track and turnouts are commercially available.

There is a big difference between just scale wheelsets and actual scale equipment with body mounted KD couplers. I have minimum 30"radius curves. If you want to run scale equipment with bigger rigid frame steam loco's then a minimum of at least 36" radius is needed. Modern longer prototype cars will set clearance requirements if you choose to run them.

I doubt all the Gilbert cars will run reliably on .125 rail. It would be close, but I found even with .138 rail the ballast has proven to be a real problem. Any grains of ballast near the rails cause the wheel flanges to bounce. The cleanup along the inside of the rails after ballasting was time consuming and critical to reliable operation. Another thing I discovered with the handlaid turnouts is 100% of the new production Lionel Flyer cars have wheelsets that are gauged about too narrow. The engines are correct. I have spent countless hours regauging all the car wheelsets. All the MTH and AM cars are correctly gauged. About half of my original Gilbert cars are correct, the other half are slightly narrow as well.

David Shapiro posted:

Another question.  Does that mean that some or all the new American Flyer or American Model or MTH trains ( i have no interest in vintage)  won't work in an S-Scale layout because of the wheel size?  That is to say, if I get code 100 track and switches , how can I be sure of the flange size of the cars?  Do the manufacturers specify which type of track that they are building for?  I have my eye on a beautiful Southern Pacific Crescent Line set on Ebay. If the Hi-rail stock won't run on S-scale switches, then is it possible to modify them so that they will? Am I even asking the right questions here?

Thanks,

David

 

American Models is the easy one to answer - they offer just about everything in either scale or hi-rail.  If the seller of an American Models item on Ebay doesn't list hi-rail or scale or doesn't show a picture of the end of the box where its indicated, then make sure you ask. 

You are probably looking at the Flyonel Southern Crescent Mikado.  It's hi-rail as is just about all Flyonel.  In the last 3 years or so, Flyonel has offered a few items in scale or with a choice of scale or hi-rail, and their catalogue listings tell you so.  You can assume that unless a Flyonel product says scale, it is hi-rail.

Related to Rusty's post above, Flyonel Fastrack says it can accommodate scale or hi-rail wheels, but when I tried putting scale wheels on my son's Flyonel SD70ace diesel loco, it derailed on turnouts.  That was my only test of scale wheels on Fastrack though.

Chuck

AmFlyer posted:

 

 If you want to run scale equipment with bigger rigid frame steam loco's then a minimum of at least 36" radius is needed. Modern longer prototype cars will set clearance requirements if you choose to run them.

 

The scale wheeled AM Northern will handle 29" and 33" radius just fine.

Naturally, they do look a lot better on larger curves.

Rusty

I think that it's coming into focus, a little. I really like the look of scale. I don't like the way the outsized wheels or the couplers look on either the locos or the cars. When I was thinking O, I really wanted 2 rail scale, but settled on 3 rail since there was so much more available.

is it the same situation here, much more available for Hi-rail due to the American Flyer heritage?

In any case, the Shapiro Basement Line will opt for S-Scale, availability be ****ed.         For now...

David

Rusty, I always enjoy looking at the pictures taken on your layout. The layout is fantastic and I had not previously seen the track plan you posted above. I have two AM Northerns but the center two drivers are blind. I did not think it would take the 30" radius if all four were flanged.

David, the nice thing about S is virtually all equipment is an accurately scaled 1/64 model of its prototype. All that is needed for scale operation is to change the wheels or trucks and add KD couplers. Some additional detailing can be done if desired. Most passenger cars scale out to about 70'; AM makes 80' cars as well, they require 27" radius track. The problem I hear most complain about is the limited selection of models of modern equipment. Since my layout is set in the 1950's I do not have that issue.

David Shapiro posted:

I think that it's coming into focus, a little. I really like the look of scale. I don't like the way the outsized wheels or the couplers look on either the locos or the cars. When I was thinking O, I really wanted 2 rail scale, but settled on 3 rail since there was so much more available.

is it the same situation here, much more available for Hi-rail due to the American Flyer heritage?

In any case, the Shapiro Basement Line will opt for S-Scale, availability be ****ed.         For now...

David

Welcome to the dark side of the dark side then, Dave...

The commonly accepted ratio for S is 85% Flyer/Hi-rail and 15% scale.  That's what American Models and the former S Helper Service have reported in the past.  It may have shifted a little recently in favor of Flyer/Hi-Rail. 

The American Flyer heritage has a lot to do with it.

Rusty

FWIW, I am in the dark side closet. Back in the early 2000's I started buying SHS and AM; all scale wheels. Last year when I was finally ready for a layout, I had to decide between building a 3 rail O gauge layout or scale S gauge layout. I went with the O gauge for my 9 year old grandson. If it had just been for me, it would have been scale S gauge. Maybe some day. 

This is an interesting thread. Although I am in O gauge I also like the S gauge stuff as well, but have none. As I said above it seems like the perfect scale and I am always surprised it is no more popular. I did look into S when I got back into trains a few years ago, but I sure didn't look far enough. I had no idea there was that many different tracks and rails available and also did not realize they also had scale and hi-rail. Thanks for all the informative posts, I learn something new every day hanging around the OGR forums.

My wife and I have wanted to do a "Polar Express" themed layout as the indoor trains is a winter time hobby for us(we have a nice garden railway for summer time fun!)  However the toy like apperance of the Jr Berkshire used in the set was a turn off to both of us.  To go with the scale size in O was way way beyond our meager train budget.  Then we saw the much more scale looking and closer to the movie look S gauge set from Lionel.  While it does have some quality control issues, the train better represents the look of the train from the movie.   I do wish big L would support the S gauge PE line up better with more ad on's.   Guess they expect you to use the figure sets for the O scale set.    Also keep in mind the huge selection of farming equipment from Ertl that is S scale in size.  From farm tractors, semi trucks and houses/barns/farming equipment.  Like 2 rail O scale, which I was preparing to make a start in, S scale stuff takes some searching.  And thus keeps one in check at train shows.  With 3 rail or HO, the show is overloaded with choices.  Not so much for S gauge other than vintage Flyer.   I find "The hunt" for trains that fit my needs part of the fun and much more enjoyable than trying to process the huge "mass" of HO or 3 rail to chose from.   As I was gathering 2 rail O scale, if I found 1 or 2 car kits/built up models at a show, I was tickled pink.  Now my wife and I will concentrate on getting more xmas buildings for the new layout.  My PE set will arrive later this week from Amazon.    Mike and Michele T

Tom Tee posted:

Repeat to your self; "Do not spend any money on RR stuff for at least 6 months".  If you do not listen to your self please listen to me.  You will regret most everything purchased at the outset of being new into model trains.

Visit lots of model RRs, all scales.  Ask advice of those who have actually built something.  Many forums feature phantom experts.  My favorite signature:  "I'm not an expert, I just play one on the forum".

This is the best advice I've seen on any forum'...The secret to your future happiness in building your layout is RESEARCH, RESEARCH, AND MORE RESEARCH!!!!!.  S scale is a fabulous scale.  There are plenty of locos by both MTH and Lionel.  Take your time and don't rush.  It takes years to build a decent layout.   

Here are the basics you need before you spend a penny'..

1 What era, time period, Steam or diesel, transition era modern day etc.. 

2. What will your RR do, for revenue, oil, coal, mining, freight, passenger svc,ETC, EYC.

3. How prototype will it be. How realistic would you like it'..

$. what is your budget.  

As you go you will grow,  Additionally, it is to be fun and enjoyable.  Start slow and small..

Another great scale and is growing rapidly, is ON30.   O scale rolling stock that runs on HO track.

You can create a wonderful  fully packed attractive  layout with the space you have...in that scale.

When I re-entered the hobby after many years, I just automatically went wit O Gauge.  I didn't research, I didn't know about ON 30 and all the other scales that were available.  Had I done a little more research, I think I would have gone with S  or ON 30....SO we all live and learn'...

So take your time and enjoy yourself while exploring and researching'...And be careful of the PHANTOM  EXPERTS'...

Quarter Gauger 48 posted:

Tom Tee posted:

Repeat to your self; "Do not spend any money on RR stuff for at least 6 months".  If you do not listen to your self please listen to me.  You will regret most everything purchased at the outset of being new into model trains.

Visit lots of model RRs, all scales.  Ask advice of those who have actually built something.  Many forums feature phantom experts.  My favorite signature:  "I'm not an expert, I just play one on the forum".

This is the best advice I've seen on any forum'...The secret to your future happiness in building your layout is RESEARCH, RESEARCH, AND MORE RESEARCH!!!!!.  S scale is a fabulous scale.  There are plenty of locos by both MTH and Lionel.  Take your time and don't rush.  It takes years to build a decent layout.   

Here are the basics you need before you spend a penny'..

1 What era, time period, Steam or diesel, transition era modern day etc.. 

2. What will your RR do, for revenue, oil, coal, mining, freight, passenger svc,ETC, EYC.

3. How prototype will it be. How realistic would you like it'..

$. what is your budget.  

As you go you will grow,  Additionally, it is to be fun and enjoyable.  Start slow and small..

 

Another great scale and is growing rapidly, is ON30.   O scale rolling stock that runs on HO track.

You can create a wonderful  fully packed attractive  layout with the space you have...in that scale.

When I re-entered the hobby after many years, I just automatically went wit O Gauge.  I didn't research, I didn't know about ON 30 and all the other scales that were available.  Had I done a little more research, I think I would have gone with S  or ON 30....SO we all live and learn'...

So take your time and enjoy yourself while exploring and researching'...And be careful of the PHANTOM  EXPERTS'...

 

 

 

Absolutely, positively agree 1000x!!!!

George

Thanks George', I'v spent quite a bit of money on some things I thought I would need but didn't, when starting out.  It's easy to do and many do the same thing as excitement sets in and you want to run trains'...And most of us lack patience.....The best is the Phantom Experts, and there's plenty of them on every forum.......Dave has received some very accurate input on this thread.  I think he'll be fine'..

If I ever build another layout, it will be either, S or ON30, 3 0r 18....

Best to you George'.. 

artfull dodger posted:

My wife and I have wanted to do a "Polar Express" themed layout as the indoor trains is a winter time hobby for us(we have a nice garden railway for summer time fun!)  However the toy like apperance of the Jr Berkshire used in the set was a turn off to both of us.  To go with the scale size in O was way way beyond our meager train budget.  Then we saw the much more scale looking and closer to the movie look S gauge set from Lionel.  While it does have some quality control issues, the train better represents the look of the train from the movie.   I do wish big L would support the S gauge PE line up better with more ad on's.   Guess they expect you to use the figure sets for the O scale set.    Also keep in mind the huge selection of farming equipment from Ertl that is S scale in size.  From farm tractors, semi trucks and houses/barns/farming equipment.  Like 2 rail O scale, which I was preparing to make a start in, S scale stuff takes some searching.  And thus keeps one in check at train shows.  With 3 rail or HO, the show is overloaded with choices.  Not so much for S gauge other than vintage Flyer.   I find "The hunt" for trains that fit my needs part of the fun and much more enjoyable than trying to process the huge "mass" of HO or 3 rail to chose from.   As I was gathering 2 rail O scale, if I found 1 or 2 car kits/built up models at a show, I was tickled pink.  Now my wife and I will concentrate on getting more xmas buildings for the new layout.  My PE set will arrive later this week from Amazon.    Mike and Michele T

I just had the opportunity to view and run both the O and S scale Polar Express from Lionel, and I have to agree the S version is a much better looking train.  

Here is a link to more S Gauge Manufacturers and vendors:

http://sgaugers.org/links.html

Aflyer

So the table is up. It's 6 x 12 with a 2 x 4 ell on the end. Homasote covering to be bought and installed soon.

I spoke at length with Don from Scenery Unlimited. What a nice guy. He invited me to come over and check the place out. I bought the catalog. Very old school, but I like it! I plan to give him a lot of business.

My next choice is track. I like the look of Tomalco and Shinohara. Any experience people would like to share? Micro-engineering?

I started buying some used S-helper and American Model rolling stock on Ebay. I'm having trouble finding S scale engines. Plenty of Hi-rail stuff around. Any suggestions? 

Finally, I also really appreciated the suggestion of starting with a simple layout and expanding from there.

Thanks,

David

David,

I don't know much about Scale S Gauge railroading, I am one of those Hi-rail guys.  

But I think you might find something you like looking at American models;

http://www.americanmodels.com/locos/

Or try Portliness Hobbies for old S Helper Service inventory

http://64.251.10.24/~worldofw/...age=results-new.html

Or take a look at River Raisin models:

http://www.riverraisinmodels.com

Aflyer

David Shapiro posted:

 I'm having trouble finding S scale engines. Plenty of Hi-rail stuff around. Any suggestions? 

 

David

David, as mentioned above American models is currently the go-to company for locomotives.  You have to specify scale wheels when ordering.

River Raisin is definitely the high end of S Scale and priced accordingly.  Good stuff, plus they also have some brass trade-ins.

The Lionel/American Flyer SD70ACe's and ES44's have Kadee mounting hardware included, but scale wheels have to be ordered separately from the Lionel Parts Department.  These two locomotives are DCC and DC compatible right out of the box, but can be a little finicky on DC.  It depends on the power pack.  Lionel tried their best to compensate for all of the DC power packs.

The earlier Lionel/Flyer U33C's also can be converted to scale with wheels from the Parts Department, but the electronics are AC/TMCC/Legacy only.

We're still waiting on MTH.

The former S Helper Service was set up for Hi-rail/Flyer, with conversion wheels and a DCC shorting plug included.  (With the exception of the 2-8-0, one specified wheels and AC/DC/DCC when ordering.)  When buying on the secondary market, be sure the original owner didn't discard them.

Rusty

Hi Flyer and Rusty,

Very helpful information. Much appreciated. I'm starting to hone in on what I'm looking for. The American Models gear seems to be the place to start. I've already researched River Raisin. Very nice but $$$$. I'm going to wait on those. I'm going to research the AF/Lionel models. In the meantime, it's construction time.

David

David,

Glad to be able to provide some information, and you are right RR is awesome but pricey. 

The American models locos are great, and I have two steam, and three diesels from Lionel American flyer, I just stay with high rail for my use.

Since your post starts with Polar Express, I have to say the Lionel American Flyer S gauge set is not a scale unit, but is a great train, at a very god price point. Check out the you tube video below, if you have not seen it already:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsSlYqH3mac

Aflyer 

I would call the PE set semi scale.  Kind of like the 773 hudson in the O gauge line.  Nearly scale size if not scale size, but mixed with hi rail style with molded hand rails, deeper flanges.   I have seen video of the set running on a scale layout mixed in with other true S scale trains and it looked good from 5 foot away.  Since its a fictional train (movie wise), its good enough for me.   Just depends on what direction you want to go, which track ect.   Since I handle my trains more, the molded on hand rails do not bother me.  Deeper flanges equil less derailments.   Being autistic, some of my finer skills will never be as sharp as others that I so admire.  So the cross over zone between scale and vintage AF toy trains is where I live.    Good luck and post up your progress.    Mike

Can an American Models S scale Hi-rail be converted to scale wheels and couplers? Easily?

Thanks

David

David Shapiro posted:

Can an American Models S scale Hi-rail be converted to scale wheels and couplers? Easily?

Thanks

David

Easy.  I've converted cars both ways:  Scale to Hi-rail and Hi-rail to scale.

For freight cars, change either the trucks or wheels.  The Hi-rail coupler is held on by the truck and truck screw.  Add Kadee or AM Snap-Lock dummy coupler.  The older cars like boxcars and plug door boxcars were set up for the Kadee #5, (there was no S Scale Kadee when AM started up) so a little care is needed to mount the 802. 

AM's diesel drive is simplicity itself, basically unchanged for 30 years.  This is their GP9.  I put on the cable ties to bundle the wires:

AM usually has diesel wheels in stock, remove the cover plates and have at it.  You'll probably have to bend the pick up wires a little to contact the back of narrower scale wheel.

AM's steam locomotives are a little different.  All drive wheels are geared (it's essentially one big power truck) and the side rods are just along for the ride.  It's important to get all the drivers lined up so the rods don't bind.

A note: AM's scale wheeled locomotives don't have couplers mounted, but they do throw in a packet of Kadee S Scale couplers.

Rusty

Looking at a used AM Scale with a D.C. motor, that's Hi Rail.

David

It's OK, all AM loco's use a DC motor.   The AC is converted to DC in the electronic sequence reverse unit on the AC Hi-rail units.

Something you may want to consider: Hi-rail with Kadee couplers.  This is how one of the well known S Scaler has done it:

http://www.buffalocreekandgaul.../ModelRailroads.html

Brooks Stover uses AM's code 148 track and uses Hi-rail wheels, but by every definition he operates a scale railroad.  He initially used redetailed American Flyer 0-8-0's converted to 2-8-0's and as better equipment came out, saw no reason to change track.  He's had articles in several Model Railraoder's, NMRA Bulletins, NASG Dispatches and even Narrow Gauge and Shortline Gazzette. Nobody's ever complained about the height of the rail or wheels...

Rusty

Can true S-Scale wheels run encode 148 track and switches?  Idid a search but I couldn't find anything definitive. It certainly looks like it's made for the American Models version of Hi-rail track. Will it accommodate Lionel/American Flyer equipment? There seems to be a number of really good-looking engines they make in their Hi-rail.

I apologize for asking what seems to be simplistic questions, but I'm trying to get a handle on which way to go now. The homesite layer is drying as we speak. The next step is to decide what track system to go with. That's why I'm asking, since it will decide my equipment choices.

David

David

You need to decide between High Rail Wheels and Scale wheels. I do not believe there is such a thing as a turnout that will support both.

Hi Keith,

So 148 track will support both scale and Hi-rail, but the issue is the turnouts. Pity. It would definitely expand the available equipment choices.

David

The AM turnouts can support scale wheels.  The frog and guardrail need to have shims added to reduce the gap.  However, I can't say by how much because I've never done it.

Rusty

Hi Rusty,

I've seen the issue of 148 turnouts adapted to S scale referenced before, but not explained. Any idea why Fox Valley would choose to make 138 code track?  Is this size a better compromise to allow both wheel sizes to run? 

I'm trying to figure out which way to go. I really like the look of scale wheels and couplers. I like a lot of the Hi-rail equipment. I haven't even gotten to the issues of control systems. After I select the track system, wiring and control are next. I've done some searches here and generally on-line. Are there any good books anybody can point me to? 

My next stop is to my local shop, Des Plaines Hobby, to grt some advice and buy some equipment.

Thanks

David

Fox Valley is offering their turnouts in both High Rail and Scale, so I can only assume that neither one can accommodate both types of wheels. As Rusty said, people have modified the American Models turnouts to accommodate scale wheels. But, after modifying, will High Rail wheels still pass through without issues? 

David Shapiro posted:

Hi Rusty,

I've seen the issue of 148 turnouts adapted to S scale referenced before, but not explained. Any idea why Fox Valley would choose to make 138 code track?  Is this size a better compromise to allow both wheel sizes to run? 

I'm trying to figure out which way to go. I really like the look of scale wheels and couplers. I like a lot of the Hi-rail equipment. I haven't even gotten to the issues of control systems. After I select the track system, wiring and control are next. I've done some searches here and generally on-line. Are there any good books anybody can point me to? 

My next stop is to my local shop, Des Plaines Hobby, to grt some advice and buy some equipment.

Thanks

David

I believe Fox Valley went with code 138 to be compatible with Lionel S FasTrack and SHS/MTH S-Trax.

It's a tough call on which way to go nowadays.  I suppose if I had it to do over again, I'd go Hi-Rail with Kadee couplers.  It's really no worse than the old AHM HO with the deep flanges that wouldn't run on anything less than code 100.

I'm pretty much a conventional DC guy.  I added the MRC Prodigy-2 DCC system to my layout, but I do very little with it as I haven't been motivated to convert many loco's to DCC. (although I'll admit, it's kinda neat when I drag out my Lionel/Flyer SD70's for a spin...)  The nice thing about MRC is some of the basic commands are printed on the back of the controller.

Rusty

There is the option of hirail wheels with Kadee couplers and everything else "scale".  The are are those who would say it is not scale if everything is not per NMRA. But Brooks Stover has done it effectively  with American Models track and high rail wheels Brooks Layout. I think there were a couple others doing that also.

You can still have a scale looking railroad and if you see a must have Lionel AF steam engine it will run. Of course electronics etc has to be dealt with but no need for the difficult wheel replacement. Not to mention if someone sees your new layout and really really wants to run to run his/her vintage American Flyer.

Just an idea and another option. 

Rusty and Cal,

Both of you make a lot of sense. The issue for me is the coupler size. Hi-rail track and scale couplers, as Rusty also pointed out, makes a lot of sense. I see a LOT of must have Lionel AF engines. This is what my son calls a "first world problem" If  this is my most pressing issue, life is very, very good.

David

Just remember: As of now, ONLY the SD70's and ES44's were sold with DCC compatibility built into the Lionel electronics code.  The steam locomotives and U33C's require conventional AC or TMCC/Legacy to run.  (And they run much better on TMCC or Legacy.)

Rusty

I think the Brooks Stover layout is awesome, best of all worlds.  

I started collecting AF tubular track and rubber roadbed many years ago, so when it came to the new/current layout, I couldn't justify switching to a newer more "scale" looking track.

Good luck with your decisions

Aflyer

Rusty Traque posted:

Just remember: As of now, ONLY the SD70's and ES44's were sold with DCC compatibility built into the Lionel electronics code.  The steam locomotives and U33C's require conventional AC or TMCC/Legacy to run.  (And they run much better on TMCC or Legacy.)

Rusty

Well, I started to research that as well. It seems that Legacy and DCC can't co-exist, unlike DCS and Legacy in O-scale. Another pity. If I had to choose between the two, given the equipment that's available, I'd go Lionel/AF.

David

Aflyer posted:

I think the Brooks Stover layout is awesome, best of all worlds.  

I started collecting AF tubular track and rubber roadbed many years ago, so when it came to the new/current layout, I couldn't justify switching to a newer more "scale" looking track.

Good luck with your decisions

Aflyer

Is this your layout. Looks awesome!

David

David Shapiro posted:

Rusty Traque posted:

Just remember: As of now, ONLY the SD70's and ES44's were sold with DCC compatibility built into the Lionel electronics code.  The steam locomotives and U33C's require conventional AC or TMCC/Legacy to run.  (And they run much better on TMCC or Legacy.)

Rusty

Well, I started to research that as well. It seems that Legacy and DCC can't co-exist, unlike DCS and Legacy in O-scale. Another pity. If I had to choose between the two, given the equipment that's available, I'd go Lionel/AF.

David

DCC compatibility was developed specifically for the Flyer SD70's and should be in all future Legacy Flyer locomotives.  Someone at Lionel realized the scale folk didn't particularly want to buy the U33C's and to pay for electronics they were going to have to remove.

The reason DCS and TMCC/Legacy co-exist is more by accident than design.  Lionel had released some information back in the early TMCC days for the computer-savvy hobbyists and MTH took full advantage it.

Rusty

Lionel's Y3 steam locomotive can run on AC, DC, or Legacy. On DC, there are engine sounds and the rear light on the tender stays lit. Lionel had not intended the locomotive to run on DC, but their chief technical officer confirmed it--and it works that way on my layout. I also use American Models track, high-rail wheels, and scale couplers. Whenever I regret not moving to scale wheels, I place an articulated Lionel locomotive on the track and try to put all the high-rail wheels properly on the track.  Trying to do that with scale wheels would take me soooo much longer.

David, if you are going to buy Lionel Flyer engines then Legacy is your best choice. TMCC and Railsounds can easily be added to the American Models engines so all can be run with the Legacy system. I recommend the LCS as well so the entire layout can be controlled from an iPad, no control panel required. 

My turnouts are made from .138 MTH rail. They operate both Scale and high rail wheels. Tried to post some pictures but the hotel internet I am connected to seems to be blocking the file upload. If you want to see pictures I can post them on Sunday at home. The layout looks scale but it allows Gilbert equipment to run unmodified. 

If you look further down this forum (multiple pages) there is a thread started 6/3 called Solid track v.s. Flex track. In it are pictures of my turnouts if you want to see how they look. Sorry I cannot get them to post here. 

TOKELLY posted:

Lionel's Y3 steam locomotive can run on AC, DC, or Legacy. On DC, there are engine sounds and the rear light on the tender stays lit. Lionel had not intended the locomotive to run on DC, but their chief technical officer confirmed it--and it works that way on my layout.

There is a caveat on DC operation. 

It depends on the pack. 

My Y3 will work with my 40 year old MRC Controlmaster X and the DC unit (GML I think, I can never remember)  on my layout, but doesn't like my MRC 6200, 6000 or the Bachmann pack that came with an On30 set.

Lionel has fiddled with the code since then, but anything on the shelf won't have the updated code.

Rusty

David Shapiro posted:

Aflyer posted:

I think the Brooks Stover layout is awesome, best of all worlds.  

I started collecting AF tubular track and rubber roadbed many years ago, so when it came to the new/current layout, I couldn't justify switching to a newer more "scale" looking track.

Good luck with your decisions

Aflyer

Is this your layout. Looks awesome!

David

It is still a WIP, the lower loop is completed, the upper loop is completed except for the two bridges over the water.  It's getting colder outside, I need to get back to work on it.

Thank you,

Aflyer

David Shapiro posted:

Rusty Traque posted:

Just remember: As of now, ONLY the SD70's and ES44's were sold with DCC compatibility built into the Lionel electronics code.  The steam locomotives and U33C's require conventional AC or TMCC/Legacy to run.  (And they run much better on TMCC or Legacy.)

Rusty

Well, I started to research that as well. It seems that Legacy and DCC can't co-exist, unlike DCS and Legacy in O-scale. Another pity. If I had to choose between the two, given the equipment that's available, I'd go Lionel/AF.

David

Actually Legacy and DCC can co-exist.

One of the guys in our club built a harness to isolate dcc from ac with a switch. We ran it on our modular layout at a train show.

Aflyer

So st the end of the day, I decided to take someone's advice early in this thread and go simple to start. Lionel Fastrak oval, to run the fantastic Lionel Mikado in Southern Pacific livery that I couldn't stop myself from buying.  I also bought a Legacy control and some very nice rolling stock on EBay. Eventually I'll do a proper layout, probably when the new Fox Valley track becomes available.

Thanks for everybody's input. It was most appreciated and very valuable.

David

Hi,  This is for AFLYER - any updates or photos of your layout?  I'm getting ready to start on mine and have a very similar space.

Thanks

Tim