Brass losing value

I would advise only buying the trains you really want to keep.  Things are only worth what people are willing to pay for them.  Most of the trains I have purchased over the years are only worth  fraction of what I paid for them,  but I bought them to run, not as an investment.  Sad,  but true.

I don't think it is sad.  It is certainly true.

The current lower prices, coupled with inflation, mean that more modelers of modest means can enjoy reasonably accurate models.

Certain MG and USH models have declined from highs in the $4000 range to just over $1200.  Note that one can now get the more common USH locomotives for just over $500.

Overland has taken a hit because so many of them were poorly assembled, with mechanisms that were designed for a mantel display.  I understand they fixed that.  I do not know what the date of the fix was.  Some of their Diesel models had inaccuracies - I have a trio of PAs with slightly inaccurate windshield openings.

Hobbies and investments are rarely compatible.  Hobbies are for fun.

All opinion.

Sounds like population aging is affecting scale as well as tinplate market....or maybe those four figure prices have affected both and scared new hobbyists off...

With Brass HO, there is a allot of secondary work required to bring it up today's technology... DCC, DCS, etc.

I believe Brass O has the same issues.

So many new products coming out that are now scale, so unless you are modeling something very elusive, the brass market is pretty soft.

Most all of my HO brass purchased new 40 years ago have yet to come up the price I paid for them. All of my second hand O scale brass  have been bought for a third or their original list price. This is not a new phenomenon. 

Pete

Brass is taking a huge hit right now. I just took a bath on my Overland GP30. Paid $750 last year and just sold for $530 minus PayPal and Ebay fees.  Ouch! A good friend of my is sitting on a good amount of S scale brass that he is having trouble getting more than 50% of what he paid. HO brass is even worse because modern plastic from companies like Rapido, Athearn, Scale Trains, etc... is so good. Fewer and fewer people are interested in painting and lighting. Not to mention that most people I know prefer DCC/Sound to come pre-installed. Add in the aging target audience and you see how we are where we are I guess.

I find it amazing how any brass company today can sell their new models when people realize what will happen to their non investment.   Yes, I guess, I will be running these models, if they do run,  in the future and get enjoyment out of them.   I won't consider selling them and the sons can when I pass.   But looking and see a bid on one Santa Fe SD40-2 at $1100+.  There is hope

jonnyspeed posted:

Brass is taking a huge hit right now. I just took a bath on my Overland GP30. Paid $750 last year and just sold for $530 minus PayPal and Ebay fees.  Ouch! A good friend of my is sitting on a good amount of S scale brass that he is having trouble getting more than 50% of what he paid. HO brass is even worse because modern plastic from companies like Rapido, Athearn, Scale Trains, etc... is so good. Fewer and fewer people are interested in painting and lighting. Not to mention that most people I know prefer DCC/Sound to come pre-installed. Add in the aging target audience and you see how we are where we are I guess.

I think you nailed it right on the head with this post.

Brass used to be the only factory-made way you could get:

• Correct details for the prototype
• Good can motors (in some cases)
• A model that held its value, unlike anything made form plastic

Those days are, thankfully, gone. For example, my Bachmann ten-wheelers have as much detail out of the box as a lot of brass used to come with. And already painted, too. You only have to look in a good hobby shop to see the amazing detail that is available for RTR HO and other scales now. Heck, some lot of it comes pre-weathered now! I saw a N scale set recently that has brass-quality details, painted, and weathered (two cars even had graphiti on them). Right out of the box it was ready for a photo shoot in one of the hobby magazines!

Some (if not many) people who buy/bought brass often were the types who liked collecting and wanted to know they had the most expensive stuff out there. Every hobby has these folks. The problem was, they often didn't run all that well. The magazines were filled with stories on how to re-engine brass locomotives so they'd run as good as they looked.

A good friend of mine in Florida collected brass for over 20 years and recently realized he'll never be able to sell it for what he has in it. His HO 'layout' is mostly a parking lot for a massive brass collection now. I doubt many of his locomotives ran all that well. Now, he's discovered the joys of O scale and will probably look to rebuild part of his massive (and for many years, totally dormant) layout into our favorite scale. But I can't imagine how little he'll get for his HO brass if/when he decides to sell.

I went to Whistle Stop trains in Portland a while back and looked in their brass case for the heck of it (it's all just HO, nothing I'd actually buy, due to the scale) and saw stuff for sale for less than what people paid back in the 80s, and that's not even adjusting for inflation! In other words, it's taking a massive hit in value when you consider what 70s-80s money would be worth today.

phill posted:

I find it amazing how any brass company today can sell their new models when people realize what will happen to their non investment.  

But, that's the whole point.  I don't buy brass as an investment.  I buy brass because it is of a prototype I like and want.  As many have said before me, trains are not investments.

Norton posted:

Most all of my HO brass purchased new 40 years ago have yet to come up the price I paid for them.

HO brass prices of 40 years ago, adjusted for 40 years of inflation, are not a pleasant reminder of your 'investment'....considering their current secondary market sales prices.

According to the C.O.L. calculator, a $100 price in 1976 would rise to $425 in 2016. 

I believe an HO PFM Santa Fe 2-8-0 (ubiquitous, I know) was my first brass acquisition about 50 years ago.  Even though it has basically languished in its box since then and could probably come close to the equally ubiquitous 'mint' rating, the thought of getting 4.25 times the original price is laughable....if not totally depressing.  Ain't gonna happen, not ever, zip, nada!

I'm with Bob2's pithy comment...

"Hobbies and investments are rarely compatible.  Hobbies are for fun."

...and that's the way it was for me 50 years ago....and still is.  

There's enough else in this world to be depressed about....but not my hobby purchases!

Also just an opinion.

KD

Slight qualification needed... 

Some brass may be losing value but quality brass is not..

ecd15 posted:

But, that's the whole point.  I don't buy brass as an investment.  I buy brass because it is of a prototype I like and want.  As many have said before me, trains are not investments.

True, but we all know people who bought them for an investment anyway, not realizing that the hobby was gonna have to morph in the future.

I recently talked with a visitor to my layout and he was totally blown away when I explained how few (4 total) locomotives I bought. I explained that part of it is the discipline of not buying excess stuff, another part is modeling a RR that had few locos and no interchange and yet another was only wanting stuff I could justify running on my layout at all (for example, I will never buy a D&GRW K-36, even though I love how they look). He was one of those guy who'd buy what he thought was cool, whether it made sense or not (for example, he just bought a brass Milwaukee Road Little Joe, though his layout has no overhead wires and is a Northeast prototype). He considered such purchases to be 'investments' and I brought this subject up, how brass has tanked in value and how much people take a hit when they try to sell anything used at a train show. I said, "I bought all my rolling stock and locos to run, not to sit around and be a burden for my wife to get rid of if I step out in front of a bus tomorrow."

The "brass as an investment" idea is even worse if you compare it against another investment instead of against inflation.  The S&P 500 had a high in 1976 of 108.72.  Today it is 2184, or slightly over 20 times higher.

I have a fair bit of brass, have weathered it all and run the heck out of it.  Who cares what the residual value will be when it is sold again, I'm getting the "fun equity" out of it now. 

Bob posted:

The "brass as an investment" idea is even worse if you compare it against another investment instead of against inflation.  The S&P 500 had a high in 1976 of 108.72.  Today it is 2184, or slightly over 20 times higher.

I have a fair bit of brass, have weathered it all and run the heck out of it.  Who cares what the residual value will be when it is sold again, I'm getting the "fun equity" out of it now. 

 

I agree.  I have a number of Williams brass locomotives that I am running.  Investment?  Try an index fund.

I bought a PRR B6sb switcher (shifter in proper PRR-speak) in 2006 for $400 (MIB).  I replaced it last year (in equivalent condition) for $200.

Enjoy your trains.

George

Here's my 3 guidelines for buying engines:

Is it less than $750?

Am I willing to take a Dremel to it?

Can I take it apart if something needs to be fixed?

If not, I don't buy it.

About  2o years ago I sold my collection of 100 HO & HOn3 locomotives to a brass dealer who I had bought from. I said I wanted get rid of them all and knew I wouldn't get retail price. He gave me 75% of retail which was a good deal-I was expecting 50%.   So with my 5 grand I invested in guns-antiques and some automatic weapons.  They really went up in value but I cashed out of that too.  So now I have O and Standard gauge and don't give a hoot on value.

Jim, you should have kept the automatics. They've rocketed up in value. For example, a Tommy Gun can easily go for well into 6-figures now!

The brass dealer later told me I sold at a good time because plastic with all the detail was knocking brass down.  I had a BAR and  a German MP44  and they are all worth megabucks now. The auto weapons were hassle because people would call the cops when I shot them on our family's 160 acre farm.  Plus I was afraid of them being stolen. I could have built a nice layout with the $$. Really trains are more fun.

Anybody who buys brass or any train for that manner and expects it to hold its value has rocks in their head. 

Some of the brass importers like OMI only has their selves to blame. Some looked great but they had cheap drivetrains. 

There was a thought amongst some of the importers that why make them run good when most will only be put on display. 

Model trains are to use not to become a investment. 

phill posted:

I find it amazing how any brass company today can sell their new models when people realize what will happen to their non investment.  

"investment"??????      You are obviously in the wrong hobby if you believe brass locomotives are an "investment".

Yes, I guess, I will be running these models, if they do run,  in the future and get enjoyment out of them.   I won't consider selling them and the sons can when I pass.   But looking and see a bid on one Santa Fe SD40-2 at $1100+.  There is hope

Rule292 posted:

Slight qualification needed... 

Some brass may be losing value but quality brass is not..

This is actually true.  For example, the Overland Palace Poultry car currently at $590 on eBay with 2 days left.  I have clear memories of thinking these were outrageously pricey when they were selling in the mid-$300's......  Silly me, should have bought every one then, but who knew.....

OTOH, people that think that model trains, brass, etc. are investments are welcome to that mindset and that element of risk.  It's only really worth what you can sell it for within a very short time period.  If you need to liquidate it tomorrow......to pay for that emergency hangnail surgery....

I have 6 Right of Way, 2 Williams, and 1 Weaver brass locomotives and enjoy them all, even though each has plummeted in value.  As for the plastic SD40-2 I have a Weaver UP model with the correct middle idler wheels which I think compares quite favorably to brass.

Lew

mwb posted:

Rule292 posted:

Slight qualification needed... 

Some brass may be losing value but quality brass is not..

This is actually true.  For example, the Overland Palace Poultry car currently at $590 on eBay with 2 days left.  I have clear memories of thinking these were outrageously pricey when they were selling in the mid-$300's......  Silly me, should have bought every one then, but who knew.....

OTOH, people that think that model trains, brass, etc. are investments are welcome to that mindset and that element of risk.  It's only really worth what you can sell it for within a very short time period.  If you need to liquidate it tomorrow......to pay for that emergency hangnail surgery....

Actually, I can give several examples of quality brass made by Boo-Rim (Doesn't get much better) that aren't going for much more than 50 or 60 percent.

Example: I'm an Erie fan and I've always wanted a good K5 Pacific. The best are (of course) in HO. Precision Scale recently did a beautiful K5. I believe these were sold originally for $1200-$1400 or so. I just watched one new in the box go unsold after a week with a no reserve price of $800.

Another example would be pretty much any Boo-Rim made River Raisin S scale brass.

You have to have the right buyer or even quality brass is taking a hit. 

I noticed when N&W 611 came back out the number of models for sale jumped on E-Bay, at 25-30% higher than the previous year when I bought mine.  I guess sellers were thinking they could make a buck or two on the 611's return to the rails.

If I knew then what I know now I would have started off buying those Williams/Samhongsa brass steamers sooner, I got the 4 I have at good prices IMO, even if they are lacking in the amount of detail.  I'd be most happy with owning only those 4 and not the other 6 steamers and 8 diesels I have.

Rule292 posted:

Slight qualification needed... 

Some brass may be losing value but quality brass is not..

 So, what is "quality" brass?  

What are the metrics by which brass would be judged to be...quality...in comparing one item to another?

TCA has standards that provide cosmetic definitions/rankings.

The International Organization for Standards has created the ISO (not an acronym) system for "ensuring that products and services are safe, reliable, and of good quality".   

I've never seen a grading system for the quality of this hobby's brass products.   Does one exist?

And, I always thought 'value' was a personal perception.

Just curious.

KD

dkdkrd posted:

Rule292 posted:

Slight qualification needed... 

Some brass may be losing value but quality brass is not..

 So, what is "quality" brass?  

What are the metrics by which brass would be judged to be...quality...in comparing one item to another?

There aren't any other than the marketplace and time.  That's part of it being a high risk investment - there are no metrics, no grading systems, etc.  That's also why it's a poor investment.  Combine that with the propensity for O scaler modelers to be painfully cheap and needing a crowbar to open their wallets always looking for a bargain (think about bottom feeders at train meets...).

Back to that Overland poultry car - only time it's been imported, an unusual car, and done well; same story for the coffin pickle car and the vinegar.  They have held and increased in selling price - some of the Pac Lmt. cars, many of the Yoder cars now, etc. are in this category.

dkdkrd posted:

Rule292 posted:

Slight qualification needed... 

Some brass may be losing value but quality brass is not..

 So, what is "quality" brass?  

What are the metrics by which brass would be judged to be...quality...in comparing one item to another?

TCA has standards that provide cosmetic definitions/rankings.

The International Organization for Standards has created the ISO (not an acronym) system for "ensuring that products and services are safe, reliable, and of good quality".   

I've never seen a grading system for the quality of this hobby's brass products.   Does one exist?

And, I always thought 'value' was a personal perception.

Just curious.

KD

Why I thought everyone knew that the standard for quality brass was ASTM-D 2r-o-1:48-P:48?

mwb posted:

Rule292 posted:

Slight qualification needed... 

Some brass may be losing value but quality brass is not..

This is actually true.  For example, the Overland Palace Poultry car currently at $590 on eBay with 2 days left.  I have clear memories of thinking these were outrageously pricey when they were selling in the mid-$300's......  Silly me, should have bought every one then, but who knew.....

OTOH, people that think that model trains, brass, etc. are investments are welcome to that mindset and that element of risk.  It's only really worth what you can sell it for within a very short time period.  If you need to liquidate it tomorrow......to pay for that emergency hangnail surgery....

Martin...  Not trying to take issue with your perception of the OM Palace Poultry car being quality, but help me understand why your comments wouldn't reflect as much the scarcity of this model coming onto the secondary market as much as a reflection of its quality??....which is the only basis mentioned in the quote.

IOW, would the modified response, "Some brass may be declining in price, but truly scarce brass is not", also apply?....and maybe more so to the larger market?   

I have often paid more than original msrp for an item or two....including brass.  But, not because I was on a quest for quality, but because I knew they were few and far between...and my own mortality kicks in and says 'I may not be here tomorrow or a year from now when the next one comes along....I'm going to bid/pay NOW!'.  

I've always thought of brass products by Kohs to be exceptional, highly detailed, very expensive (by my budget standards) at the original purchase price.  Probably their products would fit the ambiguous term 'Quality', too.  They're certainly made in small quantities, but the market for their products is also small.  That said, I've seen a few of their early products selling for less than the original price, or, at least, not selling at a price that keeps pace with inflation.  I don't think that makes those few items of any less quality than the rest of Kohs products.  I believe Kohs has a very consistent expectation/demand of quality in all of their products.

Sorry to belabor this, but I'm part of that hoi polloi  (love that term!....from the York thread!) brass-buying group that understands scarcity/rarity more than...."quality".

I know....maybe I'm just trying to better understand 'elite' terminology/rationale.  

Rejoice.  I'm done.  finis.

KD

Guess when I cack, my son will have to send my brass collection off to the breakers in India, to retrieve their scrap value.

dkdkrd posted:

Sorry to belabor this, but I'm part of that hoi polloi  (love that term!....from the York thread!) brass-buying group that understands scarcity/rarity more than...."quality".

I know....maybe I'm just trying to better understand 'elite' terminology/rationale.  

Scarcity figures in as well, sure.  But scarce doesn't make up for lousy.....high accuracy to prototype with high level of correct detail. 

But, as much as my background originally in dealing in collectables exists buying and selling I can tell you that everything is a moving target....and what was a hot quality item 30 years ago is today something you can't give away and the converse.       Think peanut butter glasses..... Really?

Brass as an investment...........go to Vegas, catch some shows, play some slots, cards, dice it's entertainment just like my trains.  Buying brass is like buying a new car, soon as it leaves the lot the value starts going down.  There are exceptions and from what I see the exceptions are in rolling stock not in locomotive power.  Locomotives may go up some if all the units are sold out when they are originally delivered such as some of Key Imports E units. 

The items I see appreciating in price are unusual rolling stock.  The perfect example is Rich Yoder's boxcar with the art deco ends.  They are constantly going for higher than list on ebay.  Cabooses that are factory painted with limited runs go for higher than retail.   I'm noticing some brass structures going for higher than retail.

The funny thing is when someone sells a piece or brass or kit on ebay for higher than retail all of a sudden you see several more models for sale......the early bird gets the worm and most of the other sales go for lower prices but some still go for higher than retail.

Buying high end brass is the chance you take.  I have ordered a Midwestern Model Works N&W SD-45 win the bicentennial paint  scheme.  I have always wanted this diesel and committed before I heard about the MTH model.  I have the Overland N&W 1776 caboose and found the decals.  If you see this caboose it's going for a much higher price on ebay.........still unpainted.  I know I may never get my money out of this model but it's in the top 5 of my bucket list.  Another is the VGN Berkshire which if Kohs does come thru, IT"S MINE!!!!  I already have the rolling stock and caboose to go behind it.

I line up with the "scarcity" crowd.  There is a limited market for the poultry car, and obviously an even more limited number of imports available.  It is probably no higher in quality than a good Pacific Limited car.

What happened is sort of like this:  the Max Gray SP AC-4  went skyrocketing to $4 grand at roughly the turn of the century.  Then Sunset imported the AC-4/5/6 for roughly $1200, fully painted and well detailed.  The value of the Max items immediately dropped to roughly the same price.

Do not think for a minute that the poultry car cannot suffer the same fate.  It probably will not, because most of us simply do not want poultry cars.

So, me too - what defines quality brass?

I buy all of my brass for their investment value.  But for me, the return on investment is the hours of enjoyment I have seeing them operate on my layout.  If they don't have any financial value after that, it will not bother me at all.

bob2 posted:

So, me too - what defines quality brass?

Should be of sufficient gauge that it doesn't collapse when you attempt to pick it up.

Should have all or most of the attributes of the prototype, to the extent that is possible considering the gauge.

Should be reasonably close to the dimensions of the prototype.

Should have a sturdy reliable Drive.

Simon

It isn't only brass that is losing value, though I have pieces that sold way over the paid price. Look at the selling sites and all the Lionel and mth products that sell way less the day after it come out. Look at all the Sunset items for sales listed over and over, even some of the newer arrivals.

Stephen

phill posted:

I had bought an Overland SD40-2 painted UP #3400 a decade + ago and paid $1000 and see on EBAY as bidding at just over $600 and I am just hoping that it bids out around that $1000.   If you are bidding I am sorry that I feel that way as I know everyone wants a steal but I want to keep its value up there.  Is it that interest in Brass just slipping away as more detail is now in plastic.  I still think brass has the best and sharper details and one can't find a good SD40-2 in plastic.  

The first thing you have to think of is what is the value of the dollar for the day you bought it versus today.

Second is a question: Do you expect everything you own to retain it's original value?

I am having a great deal of difficulty finding any empathy for you.

Simon

A Ferrari, a 1967 GTB that I turned my nose up at $6500 in 1972 sells for seven figures now. An original Ford GT I passed on at $35,000 in 1975 is worth 2.5 to 3 million now. Some of the cars I raced in the 60s and 70s are now priceless.

Here is my point, serious money chases art, cars and exclusive real estate while the population that buys brass is getting smaller and probably less inclined to spend large sums for individual brass locos and cars due to our collective age,,,,as well as, wanting to leave something, liquid investments, and real estate to heirs. Or how about just trying to afford to live in old age.

However, what a great time to add a piece you love to display or run on your railroad, but certainly never as a financial investment.

This is an interesting thread. I currently own approximately 25 brass engines - mostly western railroads - I've collected over the last 25 to 30 years. Many years ago I purchased several Lionel engines but for personal reasons decided to sell all of them before their 'value' dropped like a rock.  Just plain dumb luck! I can honestly say after purchasing each of my brass engine I've never given their appreciation or depreciation in value a second thought. I've always subscribed to the belief that one should collect what gives them personal pleasure not what will increase in value over time. I can't even honestly say today which engines have increased in value and which have depreciated in value.  Collecting brass engines as a hedge to inflation is in my opinion just plain ridiculous. My primary interest then as now has always been collecting engines run by the Southern Pacific first, Santa Fe second and Union Pacific third.  

If any of my brass collection increases or decreases in value I really don't pay much if any attention. Frankly there are many other more important things in life to deal with like ones personal health!

ecd15 posted:

phill posted:

I find it amazing how any brass company today can sell their new models when people realize what will happen to their non investment.  

But, that's the whole point.  I don't buy brass as an investment.  I buy brass because it is of a prototype I like and want.  As many have said before me, trains are not investments.

Yes, It is like buying a new car. One buys it and drives it off the lot and loses 25% right there. and over the years it will continue to lose value. So one should always buy used equipment and get the savings.

Bob2 asked what defines quality brass.

For me it is Koh and Key in the USA and Masterpiece and Lee Marsh in the UK.

Lemaco and Fulgurex in Switzerland.

I am now severely limiting what I buy as I appreciate my kids may well be left with unsaleable stuff, that despite how beautifully it replicates the prototype with exquisite detail, solder and paint - if there is no demand from the next generation there will be no market for it.

Personal circumstance also forces financial discipline on me.  Consequently my builders plate collection has also shrunk to now only late built steam , no one in the next generation is going to want this stuff, accept it and move on. 

To prevent spontaneous purchases I maintain a very small wants list and if it doesn't appear on the list I don't purchase it, I now subscribe to the mentality, 'less is more'.  I have sold most of the OMI/PRB brass rolling stock that is superfluous in my collection and will soon start with some of the OMI locomotives.  ( took a hit on some, broke even on other stuff ) OMI quality even on the last runs still leaves a lot to be desired. The latches are still only etched (???) The Red Caboose plastic GP9 got it right.

as ever, opinion.

nick

I get tired of model train hobbiest say that my kids will be left with unsellable stuff. Kids are not entitled to every dollar that we have earned. They need to work to make their own fortune. Whether it is golf, or any other hobby one does not need to have a return for every dollar output. Buy what you want and enjoy. If you make a profit great, if you don't the money spent was for the good times that you had. To me it is like going to a movie, you spent money to have a good time that you need to keep sane. Money well spent. If I sell a locomotive brass or plastic and lose $100 that I have enjoyed for 5 years. That only cost $20 a year or about $1.67 a month for our enjoyment. Cheap compared to some people paying over $100 a month for cable. No hobby is really cheap, but we must decide is it worth it for the enjoyment and social friends that it gets each and every one of us. I always thought smoking and drinking has nothing to show for in the end. A least with trains I still have something to show for.

Stephen

AS I have said more than once  "My trains are my therapy". Cheaper that a shrink, booze or cars.  I know,  after my wife died I bought some older cars and spent days working on them but it got me over some really bad times. Forget the $$, enjoy your trains.

Good to get some good-natured soul-stirring discussion.   Living proof that O scale (brass) isn't dying and that we care as much about our trains now as ever.  

Quality is certainly in the eye of the beholder, but quality (or rarity) alone does not determine what an item will fetch when selling it. 

It's not that Overland diesels (or steamers) are bad values.  In some (many?) cases it is that the market has really improved or that the product's price was inflated and has finally settled down to the market value. 

The state of the art for both the top and the bottom rungs of brass has really improved. 

Who can argue that current 3rd rail stuff is just wonderful.  Not Key or Kohs quality in detail but dimensionally accurate, faithful in basic detail, loaded with DCC/Sound and they run flawlessly.     Out of the box perfect.

Same for the top end.  Overland E's  and F and PAs all took a nosedive in price when Key started building state of the art models and 3rd rail started importing  RTR units who might have not had the detail level of Overland but they had 90 per cent of it, had road-specific details,  and were flawlessly finished.  

Every manufacturer/importer has lemons.   The Overland poultry car is highly revered and highly priced but let the nit picker and cynic have a closer look and Overland's rendition of the very fine screening as etched metal grills doesn't quite cut the mustard.  

Ditto for the flat Pullman end of the revered Pacific Limited 1932 ARA box cars.   Even the Max Gray cars from the 1960's  have a better rendition of the stamped "crimp" seams of steam era boxcar ends.

Good indicators of the brass "market" - Yoder USRA cement gons fetch anywhere from $300 unpainted up to $700 painted.  They were $425/435 new. A 1960's era built up Max Grey "perfection models" SOO Line sawtooth single sheathed boxcar fetches $450 when you can find them.   The Pacific limited NYC USRA cars were $250 when new.  Now they fetch $350 to $400.

Yes,  there are a "glut" of nice brass that is reasonably priced and easily obtainable.   Overland SD's or Dash 8's for under a grand? Yep!

Quality cars cheap? My $225 Glacier Park GS gondola and $175 Rich Yoder notch end C&O hopper are examples of that. 

Ne'er a better time to be in brass... as both a buyer and a seller. 

Interesting thread.  Here are some of my perspective. 

• trains aren't for investing, but to enjoy, share, build, modify, and especially run
•  If on my passing they can be sold for some residual value that's nice -   that would be better for my wife and kids than what's left after most most of our non-necessity expenditures.
• I don't give a hoot about scarcity or the material the model is made of.  One of my favorite locomotives is a sweet running AtlasO SW7.
• I  look for locomotives that will fill a specific operational role on the railroad.  If it isn't needed to support the operating scheme or blend prototypically with the era and region of the railroad I'm modelling  I won't buy it.  ( bless me Father for I have sinned - I'm trying to be good!)
• The model must meet a personal standard for prototype fidelity and smooth performance - with performance the most importance of the two.  As I learn more about the prototype and better models become available the fidelity standard rose.  Thus the oversized USH K4s and M1a had to go (yes I know I've made a big compromise with not going P48 - just too late in life to do that). 
• Some models have so much small hidden detail (especially opening doors, windows, and hatches) that even with extremely careful handling cleaning wheels and lubricating the mechanism is a dicey proposition.  IMO these models  are best suited for display cases - not a running railroad.  My Kohs K4s is a case in point.  It has 2 motors in the boiler -  one for the drive and a second one to move the functioning power reverse mechanism.  I'd gladly trade the working power reverse for a larger motor and  added weight on the drivers for tractive effort closer to the prototype.  With a multitude of cleaver connections between the boiler and chassis it will require the talent of a neuro surgeon to dissemble it to install DCC.  As a result it sits on a shelf over my office desk.  If I had to sell one of my K4s it would be the first to go.

Keystoned Ed posted:

Interesting thread.  Here are some of my perspective. 

• trains aren't for investing, but to enjoy, share, build, modify, and especially run
•  If on my passing they can be sold for some residual value that's nice -   That would be better for ou kids than what's left after most most of our non-necessity expenditures.
• I don't give a hoot about scarcity or the material the model is made of.  One of my favorite locomotives is a sweet running AtlasO SW7.
• I  look for locomotives that will fill a specific operational role on the railroad.  If it isn't needed to support the operating scheme or blend prototypically with the era and region of the railroad I'm modelling  I won't buy it.  ( bless me father for I have sinned - but I'm trying to be good!)
• The model must meet a personal standard for prototype fidelity and smooth performance - with performance the most importance of the two.  Some models have so much small hidden detail (especially opening doors, windows, and hatches) that even with extremely careful handling cleaning wheels and lubricating the mechanism is a dicey proposition.
• Some models  are best suited for a display case - not a running railroad.

           My beautiful Kohs K4s is a case in point.  It has 2 motors in the boiler -  one for the drive and a second one to move the functioning power reverse mechanism.  I'd gladly trade the working power reverse for a larger motor and  added weight on the drivers for tractive effort closer to the prototype.  With a multitude of tricky connections between the boiler and chassis it will require the talent of a neuro surgeon to dissemble it to install DCC.  As a result it sits on a shelf over my office desk.  If I had to sell one of my K4s it would probably be the first to go.

 

One of my lottery based dreams is a Kohs GG1 in P:48... or a freight G and a passenger G in P:48 as an honor to Bob Hegge, whose Crooked Mountain Lines  gave me the desire to model in P:48. 

I'd be more interested in donating my brass to a railroad museum that has an operating O scale railroad so that children of all ages can enjoy them. 

Investment is the last of my concerns with my trains.   Their sole purpose is their play value.   But it is fun hunting down and collecting what is necessary to model my little slice of the Standard Railroad of the World.

dkdkrd posted:

Norton posted:

Most all of my HO brass purchased new 40 years ago have yet to come up the price I paid for them.

HO brass prices of 40 years ago, adjusted for 40 years of inflation, are not a pleasant reminder of your 'investment'....considering their current secondary market sales prices.

According to the C.O.L. calculator, a $100 price in 1976 would rise to $425 in 2016. 

I believe an HO PFM Santa Fe 2-8-0 (ubiquitous, I know) was my first brass acquisition about 50 years ago.  Even though it has basically languished in its box since then and could probably come close to the equally ubiquitous 'mint' rating, the thought of getting 4.25 times the original price is laughable....if not totally depressing.  Ain't gonna happen, not ever, zip, nada!

I'm with Bob2's pithy comment...

"Hobbies and investments are rarely compatible.  Hobbies are for fun."

...and that's the way it was for me 50 years ago....and still is.  

There's enough else in this world to be depressed about....but not my hobby purchases!

Also just an opinion.

KD

In agreement, I just looked up what that 1965? tenshodo SD 24 with all the lighting and  paint, $30, then would cost $239 today.  No way close as seen them for near cheap as day it was born. Well maybe not that cheap but not like the cost of engines today. . Gawd, Do I remember running that engine and the beautiful smell of the motor as it ran around my layout in the basement crawl space.  Mom at least granted me space to play with my only brass engine. It was so beautiful in the case at Franciscan Hobbies in San Francisco and I had to have it. It took a year but enough saving and gifting to me I was able to own it.  

phill posted:

  Mom at least granted me space to play with my only brass engine. It was so beautiful in the case at Franciscan Hobbies in San Francisco and I had to have it. It took a year but enough saving and gifting to me I was able to own it.  

....which is the sentimental  value that can be priceless! 

Of course, no one else will ever compensate you for that, but so what?

I have 'stuff'...including brass trains...for which sentiment trumps all other metrics. 

Priceless.

KD

On the museum donation: me too, except the museum will just turn around and sell it for cheap.  If you want to support a museum, send it money, and earmark it for whatever your favorite thing is.

Our museum got an extensive collection of O Scale brass, and as far as I can tell, has stored it out of sight of the public for three decades.

bob2 posted:

On the museum donation: me too, except the museum will just turn around and sell it for cheap.  If you want to support a museum, send it money, and earmark it for whatever your favorite thing is.

Our museum got an extensive collection of O Scale brass, and as far as I can tell, has stored it out of sight of the public for three decades.

I wouldn't consider donating mine to any museum that didn't have an operating O scale layout... because as you say they would just hand it over to an auction company to sell for a reduced profit.  

Perhaps we need to start a national O scale museum of trains. 

I have brass, diecast and plastic.  From Key to Williams, mostly inbetween.  They have all taken a hit.  I do not care.  My rooster is based on South Western RRs and specific items my dad loved.  Memories transcend money IMO.

I am a 3 railer intruding here.....but it also depends on which side of the curve you are on......My 3rd Rail PRR S1 cost me about $500 delivered....so 'value' of brass is good or bad depending on POV.  I bought it because I LIKE it...no other reason.

VGN64 posted:

Brass as an investment...........go to Vegas, catch some shows, play some slots, cards, dice it's entertainment just like my trains.  Buying brass is like buying a new car, soon as it leaves the lot the value starts going down.  There are exceptions and from what I see the exceptions are in rolling stock not in locomotive power.  Locomotives may go up some if all the units are sold out when they are originally delivered such as some of Key Imports E units. 

The items I see appreciating in price are unusual rolling stock.  The perfect example is Rich Yoder's boxcar with the art deco ends.  They are constantly going for higher than list on ebay.  Cabooses that are factory painted with limited runs go for higher than retail.   I'm noticing some brass structures going for higher than retail.

The funny thing is when someone sells a piece or brass or kit on ebay for higher than retail all of a sudden you see several more models for sale......the early bird gets the worm and most of the other sales go for lower prices but some still go for higher than retail.

Buying high end brass is the chance you take.  I have ordered a Midwestern Model Works N&W SD-45 win the bicentennial paint  scheme.  I have always wanted this diesel and committed before I heard about the MTH model.  I have the Overland N&W 1776 caboose and found the decals.  If you see this caboose it's going for a much higher price on ebay.........still unpainted.  I know I may never get my money out of this model but it's in the top 5 of my bucket list.  Another is the VGN Berkshire which if Kohs does come thru, IT"S MINE!!!!  I already have the rolling stock and caboose to go behind it.

 

 

I still think the comments refer to scarcity of the piece and not the quality. I don't remember seeing from OM anything saying we are building this model to higher standards  as with Atlas model and the Trainman vs masters line.  So i vote for Scarcity vs quality.  And those chicken cars. well who made them other than the brass people and how many.  Now like an F unit that was so over produced in so many scales. 

Limey posted:

Bob2 asked what defines quality brass.

For me it is Koh and Key in the USA and Masterpiece and Lee Marsh in the UK.

Lemaco and Fulgurex in Switzerland.

I am now severely limiting what I buy as I appreciate my kids may well be left with unsaleable stuff, that despite how beautifully it replicates the prototype with exquisite detail, solder and paint - if there is no demand from the next generation there will be no market for it.

Personal circumstance also forces financial discipline on me.  Consequently my builders plate collection has also shrunk to now only late built steam , no one in the next generation is going to want this stuff, accept it and move on. 

To prevent spontaneous purchases I maintain a very small wants list and if it doesn't appear on the list I don't purchase it, I now subscribe to the mentality, 'less is more'.  I have sold most of the OMI/PRB brass rolling stock that is superfluous in my collection and will soon start with some of the OMI locomotives.  ( took a hit on some, broke even on other stuff ) OMI quality even on the last runs still leaves a lot to be desired. The latches are still only etched (???) The Red Caboose plastic GP9 got it right.

as ever, opinion.

nick

 

 

 

Heard once and remembered it. "You don't own it, It owns you" 

All this has me concluding that model trains are a better investment, even if they lose value,  than my Chevy, my boat, and so much more that I have purchased over the years. High five to trains 

phill posted:

All this has me concluding that model trains are a better investment, even if they lose value,  than my Chevy, my boat, and so much more that I have purchased over the years. High five to trains 

Generally speaking, firearms are a much safer investment, but even then the values can go up and down with certain gun laws being passed or repealed.

phill posted:  

Heard once and remembered it. "You don't own it, It owns you" 

Too true. I had a massive collection of US military stuff ranging from WW1 to 'Nam before I went back to college in my late 20s. I decided that it was better to have 1 really good item than 10 so-so ones. So, I sold off a massive portion of my collection. It's much smaller now, but I[m happier with it because I kept the really good stuff and got rid of all the excess stuff. I've even gone so far as to instruct my wife what to do if I kick off early so she doesn't get hosed selling it all off. I know guys with collections that fill their houses, one has a basement filled to chest level with paths cleared to walked through the large OD green stacks. He doesn't even recall what all's in there and wouldn't know where to find any specific item if he needed to. I don't see how I could live like that these days.

That OMI 0 SD 40-2 sold for $748. 

phill posted:

That OMI 0 SD 40-2 sold for $748. 

I'm not a modern era modeler... but IIRC the OMI C-40-8W went for under a grand painted when they were new in the 90's, is that not correct?

Overland stuff was state of the art detail wise when they came out.  Unfortunately their operating characteristics leave something to be desired.

The economy has peaks and valleys and right now it is running nearly flat. 

AND it does seem like many collections are hitting the streets lately... a few of us selling or dying off?

Still seems like a normal business cycle for O scale brass.

I've read every post in this thread and would like to make a couple points not yet mentioned.

Phill's UP SD-40-2 is probably from the 1990 run.  I think there were 50 pieces done.  They had a list price of a little over $900 and they were unpainted.  Phill's was painted and I figure that was worth about $250 so, $750 for the model itself?  Compares to today's price but, clearly, no appreciation.

Phill's model is Union Pacific.  I'm a brass dealer and I can tell you that the price of ALL Union Pacific brass took a big hit with UP's ill-considered licensing approach from a decade ago.  Modelers (brass buyers at least) were honked off and the popularity of UP brass dropped to zero.  I don't know if they feel they are getting back at UP, but it has not returned to former levels.  Phil bought before the crash.  I've done the same.

Folks have compared the 'value' of twenty year old brass with contemporary plastic.  Try comparing with 20-year old plastic and brass is the winner.

Jus' sayin'

I would like to add too that in my collection are locomotives that I have no intention of running such as the PFM Kodama K27 and the PSC Mitch-Cal shay, I own them purely for the satisfaction of owning them and I have no interest in what they are worth when I expire.  I aim to have a 'few nice pieces' as opposed to cabinet full of mediocre run of the mill stuff. Looking forward to my Kohs BB. 

I agree with most of the earlier comments.

n.

really who cares about the value when i'm gone. i bought it because i liked/wanted it and  had the money for it.  why does everything that you want has to have a increase in value, the steak dinner and the beer i had last night will give me no return on my investment other than the pleasure of a good dinner. my 70's leisure suit was given away but i was in style when i wore it. i made the decision that when i die i am willing all my cars,trains(tons) and guns go to my son. upon my demise he will write me a check for 100 million dollars(way more than my investment) and will place that in my coffin. i now know i made tremendous investments and will be leaving with a smile on my face.

DaveJfr0 posted:

Todd Roberts posted:

Folks have compared the 'value' of twenty year old brass with contemporary plastic.  Try comparing with 20-year old plastic and brass is the winner.

Jus' sayin'

Don't want or have to. I have zero (or nearly zero) 20yo plastic.  Since modern plastic is so good, I also have very few brass pieces unless they were something I could only ever get in brass because of its prototype uniqueness (and correctness). I don't care about the material, as long as it faithfully represents what it is supposed to be.

I'm with you Dave.

I have always considered my trains an "Investment" just not a Financial one, but like others have posted, a "Mental Investment" . Even when I don't have a chance to run them, some times just taking a few minutes(or less) to admire the detail of some my locomotives, can be a relaxing distraction from some of every day life's stresses.

 A little off topic, being this is about 2 rail Brass, there are some 3 rail Die-cast and plastic that always AMAZE me, in how their prices CONSISTENTLY come in WAY over original MSRP.

 The Lionel 6-18730 Plastic Transylvania 4-4-0 General had an MSRP of $104.99. I have seen those sell for as high as $256. In the last two weeks, ebay has shown 2 sold(Not just a ridiculous BIN price) for $225, BIN and $197.50 auction. I wanted one, but not at the prices they were selling for, fortunately after waiting about 2 years, another forum member listed one on the for sale/trade board for $75, I jumped on that immediately. Thank You Fred.

 Another is the die-cast Lionel 6-28695 Transylvania 0-6-0 Docksider, it had an original MSRP of $109.99. Ebay shows 4 SOLD listings since June 3, 2016, a BIN sale of $295, and 3 auctions ending at $115, $158, and $231, that had 28 bids, by 5 separate bidders. I had finally gotten mine, after a long wait for $150, and finally decided that I wasn't likely to see it get much, if any cheaper than that, and I finally got it.

Some times it is very hard to understand, the prices of some items, my two examples BAFFLE me, but having watched them for a long period, it isn't just a timing fluke, and they still tend to hold their prices fairly consistently year round with a predictably bit higher selling prices closer to Halloween, but still higher on average year round, than I ever would have expected.

Doug

Interesting, one of my prize locos is a brass Westside Santa Fe Mikado factory painted. I just love the ATSF 2-8-2s. I paid $650.00 for the loco two years ago. I see them on rare occasions for $750 to $850. But now there is an excellent example on the bay for a buy now price over $2 grand and a minimum bid price of $1700 plus.

I think scarcity is a factor. One I keep wanting to steal and I will, is a 3rd rail ATSF mountain.

With rare exception I cannot see any trains rising in value. That is why I still run all of the affordable USA made conventional stuff. As with any spending you have to weigh value vs cost. The most expensive engines that I own are the two 5340 scale Hudson's on the layout and that was the rare exception to my rule. The rest of the items in my collection were purchased for $5 to $200 each and the layout looks great.  I find it humorous seeing those wasting thousands of dollars on toy trains that will be worthless in a few years. The only one who makes out on that deal is the importer. I've got the money to afford the expensive stuff but in my book its a waste of money. Keeping it cheap and simple will insure that your widow will have a better life.

I told my kids when they were young......collect what you like as you may get to eat it......

all my brass and/or collectible trains I bought because I like them....never because they were brass or rare.

Interestingly after all of our discussions I would certainly say that "our brass" may not have been a MSFT or AAPL but having our "worst" investment be a few hundred bucks off of what we paid for it ain't bad.

Everybody knows the old adage "to make a million in model trains, start with two million". 

Does this mean that "plastic" is going up?

Rick

RICKC posted:

Does this mean that "plastic" is going up?

Rick

Supply and demand are still King....no matter the media used to make an item.......

I see plastic model car kits that retailed for $1.50 cross the $400 mark all the time......for plastic!!! 

Don't let this happen to you.  Years ago my late friend dealt in selling new brass, buying collections and reselling them.  One of his customers died suddenly so the customer's widow called my friend and wanted to sell his collection back to my friend.  My friend knew what the departed customer had as he had sold him most of it.  When he told the widow what he was willing to pay for the collection the widow exploded.  She said, You mean that S*& of a B*&^% spent that much on trains while we went without vacations???  He said he was afraid to tell her what he paid for it new as she was so mad she probably would have dug him up........  This isn't a joke and is a true story.

Please don't leave your family with a mess when the time comes, plan ahead.

Dennis LaGrua posted:

With rare exception I cannot see any trains rising in value. That is why I still run all of the affordable USA made conventional stuff. As with any spending you have to weigh value vs cost. The most expensive engines that I own are the two 5340 scale Hudson's on the layout and that was the rare exception to my rule. The rest of the items in my collection were purchased for $5 to $200 each and the layout looks great.  I find it humorous seeing those wasting thousands of dollars on toy trains that will be worthless in a few years. The only one who makes out on that deal is the importer. I've got the money to afford the expensive stuff but in my book its a waste of money. Keeping it cheap and simple will insure that your widow will have a better life.

Dennis, for ME, with rare exception, most locomotives that cost LESS than $200 would be a waste. If you like conventional with Lionel Lines on the tender, that is GREAT for YOU, and I wont criticize how you enjoy the hobby, even though it is different from how I enjoy the hobby, it is supposed to be FUN, however you choose to enjoy it.

  But for ME, for the most part, I prefer the more realistic, and detailed items, and prefer the operational advantages of command control. With that being said, I do enjoy my seasonal Halloween layout built on a hollow core door, and look forward to the trains on the floor at Christmas.

  So even though my preferences are towards Scale size and detail, with command control, I still have many Traditional size, conventional control trains in my collection, and I enjoy all of them, Scale or Traditional, Command or Conventional, they all make me SMILE

RICKC posted:

Does this mean that "plastic" is going up?

Rick

Rick, I don't think that plastic is going up in value overall, but in the higher end products, the detail available is definitely going up.

Doug

AMCDave posted:

RICKC posted:

Does this mean that "plastic" is going up?

Rick

Supply and demand are still King....no matter the media used to make an item.......

I see plastic model car kits that retailed for $1.50 cross the $400 mark all the time......for plastic!!! 

Ain't that the truth.    In 2004 I watched a Nylint Ford Tractor and mobile home trailer sell NIB for $4400 (yes, four thousand four hundred dollars). 

My dad bought me one as kid and I guesstimate it cost under twenty five bucks. 

VGN64 posted:

Don't let this happen to you.  Years ago my late friend dealt in selling new brass, buying collections and reselling them.  One of his customers died suddenly so the customer's widow called my friend and wanted to sell his collection back to my friend.  My friend knew what the departed customer had as he had sold him most of it.  When he told the widow what he was willing to pay for the collection the widow exploded.  She said, You mean that S*& of a B*&^% spent that much on trains while we went without vacations???  He said he was afraid to tell her what he paid for it new as she was so mad she probably would have dug him up........  This isn't a joke and is a true story.

Please don't leave your family with a mess when the time comes, plan ahead.

I definitely agree, I enjoy my trains, but there are many other responsibilities that come before trains. I got Married in 2009, my last $1,000 locomotive was purchased in 2008, coincidence???  NOPE.

 We just bought our new home in May, my 19 year old Step-Daughter moved with us, she needed new tires before she found a new job, and living on the mountain now, decent tires are even more important than before. I already have a collection that could open a small train shop, so $400 went to her tires not something else in the train collection.

 We haven't missed any meals or vacations because of train purchases, it is all about PRIORITIES, and hopefully, people will assign trains their proper place on that list,

Doug

Plastic model car kits going for $400?  Is this 1/25th scale models?  When just out of school and job hunting, I drove around the state, early 1960's, going in old drug stores and small town dime stores picking up kits for 1/25th auto models.  Some were discounted on the racks.  Several big boxes languished in parent's basement as I worked entry jobs.  Eventually, I decided the money was better spent on real cars than models. found a professor in Pa. in the back of a hobby magazine who collected 1/25th and sold  all out,  except for those of a few favorite prototypes,  at a small profit.  Well, it is a crap shoot.  They could have been beanie babies.  I am now confused about the value of brass.  I have little, just all the few O scale side door, etc. cabooses I know about but one, and even fewer HO brass side door cabooses.  But I wonder if I should be looking for more of those  brass HO side door, combine, and drover's cabooses, if their prices are now affordable?  In other postings, I have seen comments that the O scale brass McKeen cars are pricey!  There have been a number of other motor cars and gas electrics done in O scale.....are these now dirt cheap?  I haven't thought so when I looked but maybe I should look again?

Yep....those drug and dime store kits........

One auction the other day went to $767 but did not reach reserve bid!!!

Supply and demand!!!

Ron H posted:

Interesting, one of my prize locos is a brass Westside Santa Fe Mikado factory painted. I just love the ATSF 2-8-2s. I paid $650.00 for the loco two years ago. I see them on rare occasions for $750 to $850. But now there is an excellent example on the bay for a buy now price over $2 grand and a minimum bid price of $1700 plus.

I think scarcity is a factor. One I keep wanting to steal and I will, is a 3rd rail ATSF mountain.

You piqued my curiosity.  I'm now following this chap's auction to see whether he has success.  BTW, he's currently running his auction for this engine for the fourth time.  His BIN price has dropped $400 since his first round.  It will be interesting to see if someone bites....or if he goes much lower.  

As others have mentioned, it's not what's asked, but what's received that determines the current value/price of an item in the marketplace.  Ergo, searching 'Completed' auctions in da bay for items that have sold (green numbers) is more meaningful than looking at what's being offered....at any price.

It may be that your less-than-a-$grand$ observations may be more realistic.  

It will be interesting to see what happens....

KD

Rule292 posted:

Good to get some good-natured soul-stirring discussion.   Living proof that O scale (brass) isn't dying and that we care as much about our trains now as ever.  

Quality is certainly in the eye of the beholder, but quality (or rarity) alone does not determine what an item will fetch when selling it. 

It's not that Overland diesels (or steamers) are bad values.  In some (many?) cases it is that the market has really improved or that the product's price was inflated and has finally settled down to the market value. 

The state of the art for both the top and the bottom rungs of brass has really improved. 

Who can argue that current 3rd rail stuff is just wonderful.  Not Key or Kohs quality in detail but dimensionally accurate, faithful in basic detail, loaded with DCC/Sound and they run flawlessly.     Out of the box perfect.

Same for the top end.  Overland E's  and F and PAs all took a nosedive in price when Key started building state of the art models and 3rd rail started importing  RTR units who might have not had the detail level of Overland but they had 90 per cent of it, had road-specific details,  and were flawlessly finished.  

Every manufacturer/importer has lemons.   The Overland poultry car is highly revered and highly priced but let the nit picker and cynic have a closer look and Overland's rendition of the very fine screening as etched metal grills doesn't quite cut the mustard.  

Ditto for the flat Pullman end of the revered Pacific Limited 1932 ARA box cars.   Even the Max Gray cars from the 1960's  have a better rendition of the stamped "crimp" seams of steam era boxcar ends.

Good indicators of the brass "market" - Yoder USRA cement gons fetch anywhere from $300 unpainted up to $700 painted.  They were $425/435 new. A 1960's era built up Max Grey "perfection models" SOO Line sawtooth single sheathed boxcar fetches $450 when you can find them.   The Pacific limited NYC USRA cars were $250 when new.  Now they fetch $350 to $400.

Yes,  there are a "glut" of nice brass that is reasonably priced and easily obtainable.   Overland SD's or Dash 8's for under a grand? Yep!

Quality cars cheap? My $225 Glacier Park GS gondola and $175 Rich Yoder notch end C&O hopper are examples of that. 

Ne'er a better time to be in brass... as both a buyer and a seller. 

Yes, to the quote,"Every manufacturer/importer has lemons",  and I learned the hard way.   My love of the SD24s back in the 60's had me order 3 from hallmark models thinking they come from Japan and the expected quality from that country. WRONG, They switched to Korea and a manufacturer who had not got to speed making models. The ones I got from my pre order  unseen were awful and made me feel terrible as I spent a lot of good money for bad stuff.     That was one reason I was very hesitant about Atlas models as everything is pre order and I had never bought any of their O stuff and all is bought site unseen. I have been very happy with what Atlas produced.  

AMCDave posted:

Supply and demand are still King....no matter the media used to make an item.......

I see plastic model car kits that retailed for $1.50 cross the $400 mark all the time......for plastic!!! 

I've been waiting for someone to mention this and I think this post is the first to do so.

Scarcity/Rarity is a bit flawed, because if no one wants something, put it in the so what file. That's rarity.

Doesn't matter if there are a million people out there that have an item, if there are 2 million people out there that want it, it will likely sell quickly and at a premium. That's demand.

Now the BIG caveat between brass and plastic: If there is BIG demand for plastic, the manufacturer will break out the molds and try and satisfy it. (assuming they are smart/aware).

That will NOT happen so quickly with brass because it is hand made. That will change when they invent the Star Wars brand replicator or maybe some kind of 'printer'.

Simon

Simon Winter posted:

AMCDave posted:

Supply and demand are still King....no matter the media used to make an item.......

I see plastic model car kits that retailed for $1.50 cross the $400 mark all the time......for plastic!!! 

 

Now the BIG caveat between brass and plastic: If there is BIG demand for plastic, the manufacturer will break out the molds and try and satisfy it. (assuming they are smart/aware).

That will NOT happen so quickly with brass because it is hand made. That will change when they invent the Star Wars brand replicator or maybe some kind of 'printer'.

Simon

This is true to an extent.......

The plastic kits that sell for big bucks today are kits most know are gone forever. During the 1960's the US auto manufactures PAID plastic model companies to make models of their cars.  At the end of the year the molds would be modified or scrapped.....as the thinking was their usefulness was done.  THESE  are the kits sought after today......a 1964 Corvair 4 door will never be kitted today......so if you have a mint AMT KIT...YOU HAVE GOLD. Some molds were kept intact....and collectors today know which ones they are......

More info about plastic anyone wanted to know!!!  thx

Don't say NEVER. If there is enough money involved, they will appear.

Simon

Simon Winter posted:

Don't say NEVER. If there is enough money involved, they will appear.

Simon

Correct......some molds that were scrapped 50 years ago have been cloned.....not hard today.  I was part of a team that cloned a kit using mint vintage kit scanned and then cut a new tool. But these clones always have some minor difference....often keeping vintage kits safe. 

Today I do some market research for plastic kit manufactures......unless GM pays to have a new 64 Corvair tool cut....it will not happen in my life time......cost to profit margin WAY off the page!!!  thx 

Rule292 posted:

phill posted:

That OMI 0 SD 40-2 sold for $748. 

I'm not a modern era modeler... but IIRC the OMI C-40-8W went for under a grand painted when they were new in the 90's, is that not correct?

Overland stuff was state of the art detail wise when they came out.  Unfortunately their operating characteristics leave something to be desired.

The economy has peaks and valleys and right now it is running nearly flat. 

AND it does seem like many collections are hitting the streets lately... a few of us selling or dying off?

Still seems like a normal business cycle for O scale brass.

I am sure many here are older than 55 and barely touched the steam era. When we are gone who will want our steam models in the quantity we  had produced in our time.  I have  a few and lucky I have a son that is also into O scale collecting.   So that's where it goes 

I've always been puzzled by the concern for future resale value of our trains. Almost all other hobby/leisure activities folks engage in are consumed when they are enjoyed--a round of golf, an expensive vacation, a gourmet meal, etc, etc.

Do it for the pleasure it gives you.

Scotie

phill posted:

Rule292 posted:

phill posted:

That OMI 0 SD 40-2 sold for $748. 

I'm not a modern era modeler... but IIRC the OMI C-40-8W went for under a grand painted when they were new in the 90's, is that not correct?

Overland stuff was state of the art detail wise when they came out.  Unfortunately their operating characteristics leave something to be desired.

The economy has peaks and valleys and right now it is running nearly flat. 

AND it does seem like many collections are hitting the streets lately... a few of us selling or dying off?

Still seems like a normal business cycle for O scale brass.

I am sure many here are older than 55 and barely touched the steam era. When we are gone who will want our steam models in the quantity we  had produced in our time.  I have  a few and lucky I have a son that is also into O scale collecting.   So that's where it goes 

Ain't that the truth Phill! 

When I croak nobody is going to want (or appreciate) my 1940's era PRR stuff no mater how well detailed or accurate it is.

phill posted:

When we are gone who will want our steam models in the quantity we  had produced in our time.  

Pretty sure that at that point, we won't be worried about that anymore.  And, if one has to worry about it now, then maybe now is the time to make the hard decisions.

Fwiw overland imported 125 of the palace cars.   I have a flock and they are fantastic models.    PAC limited NYC and SP boxcars are fantastic--- the prr cars are very pedestrian in comparison.     Protocraft and yoder are the high bar now.

kohs has done amazing cement hoppers and gondolas.    I am highly suspect he can keep the game going.     Bill Davis imported a small run of Erie boxcars-- cool items if you can find them.

i am keen on over lands cabeese--- many are superb models with unusual trucks and fun to letter and weather.

A most fascinating and timely thread as I am re entering brass collecting  (mainly HO and some Yoder O) after  a dedicated stint in the 80's and 90's. I buy what I like and can afford (The Blue Collar Collector) yet constantly strive to educate myself and understand the difference between quality levels, manufacturers and importers. I was originally seduced by possible  "investor" allure decades ago but quickly learned the reality of used-car reality and today's Antiques Roadshow collector rough-and-tumble waaa-waaa-waaa. Prices crashed (and the market died) and the associated generation of collectors are dying, new buyers and builders are few, there is a glut of old supply that sits and it's a buyers market unless a seller finds that particular collector or educated buyer. It truly IS a good time to get back into the classic brass market; I'm rebuilding and expanding my old collection for the same or LESS than what I paid then which allows me to expand into several new personal short line and regional Road likes at bargain prices....AND reserve several new releases in HO.  In the short term I collect but come retirement  I'll endevour to lightly run on modules; but most of all I accumulate particular pieces for family remembrance, emotion and enjoyment which is counter-intuitive to investment. Brass is NOT a precious metal; you want investment look to gold and silver and their associated earthly relatives that ride the markets along with other financial products. Last I looked, brass trains did not rank up there with rare art works and real estate unless you're in the 1%'ers  of both the brass market and high rollers.

BradA posted:

PAC limited NYC and SP boxcars are fantastic--- the prr cars are very pedestrian in comparison.

If you're tossing out the X23 cars, I'll be by with my bucket.

Martin,

which door version do on do You Want?

email in profile

BradA posted:

Martin,

 

which door version do on do You Want?

 

email in profile

Early, preferably unlettered,   CVRR actually had some of these.........

When we croak, who cares if our collection appreciates or depreciates. It's not like someone is going to put a check in your coffin for you to cash. Stop speculating what might happen and live and enjoy your hobby now. The investment is "enjoyment and friends". Everyone seems to talk about brass losing value, plastic is much worse.

Stephen

phill posted:

VGN64 posted:

Brass as an investment...........go to Vegas, catch some shows, play some slots, cards, dice it's entertainment just like my trains.  Buying brass is like buying a new car, soon as it leaves the lot the value starts going down.  There are exceptions and from what I see the exceptions are in rolling stock not in locomotive power.  Locomotives may go up some if all the units are sold out when they are originally delivered such as some of Key Imports E units. 

The items I see appreciating in price are unusual rolling stock.  The perfect example is Rich Yoder's boxcar with the art deco ends.  They are constantly going for higher than list on ebay.  Cabooses that are factory painted with limited runs go for higher than retail.   I'm noticing some brass structures going for higher than retail.

The funny thing is when someone sells a piece or brass or kit on ebay for higher than retail all of a sudden you see several more models for sale......the early bird gets the worm and most of the other sales go for lower prices but some still go for higher than retail.

Buying high end brass is the chance you take.  I have ordered a Midwestern Model Works N&W SD-45 win the bicentennial paint  scheme.  I have always wanted this diesel and committed before I heard about the MTH model.  I have the Overland N&W 1776 caboose and found the decals.  If you see this caboose it's going for a much higher price on ebay.........still unpainted.  I know I may never get my money out of this model but it's in the top 5 of my bucket list.  Another is the VGN Berkshire which if Kohs does come thru, IT"S MINE!!!!  I already have the rolling stock and caboose to go behind it.

 

 

I still think the comments refer to scarcity of the piece and not the quality. I don't remember seeing from OM anything saying we are building this model to higher standards  as with Atlas model and the Trainman vs masters line.  So i vote for Scarcity vs quality.  And those chicken cars. well who made them other than the brass people and how many.  Now like an F unit that was so over produced in so many scales. 

I'm not concerned with the value of my brass...only that it runs well, and is representative of the prototype I model.

Ditto....just enjoy them....

If you don't enjoy them...sell them....they ain't going up in value...

Just buy what you enjoy and dont worry about it. No offense but its not just brass, seems the plastic and diecast things go down as well. In my opinion brass holds its value more than the diecast/plastic anyway. Everytime a new sound system comes out the price tanks on older equipment. Search for PS2 locos they are way under what they cost and PS1, I am surprised when you buy one the seller doesn’t put money in the box for you to take it. Most of the brass especially the older stuff stays pretty steady up and down some but like US Hobbies nearly always brings more than what it did new. But again at the end of the day... cars, houses, boats, tv, computers, cellphones, furniture, clothes usually all goes down. So since I enjoy my trains, warm houses, clothes, tv, and even my cellphone... i will be willing to take that loss. Good luck!

Scotie posted:

I've always been puzzled by the concern for future resale value of our trains.

I know plenty of people who are concerned about that, in regard of what the sale will net their family afterward. I've made it clear to my wife that there is generally not a huge aftermarket for used model trains. It's my WW2 collection that she will likely do well with getting ride of if she outlives me and finds a good buyer. But many of you Lionel collectors have an equal chance for the survivors for them to sell the stuff after you're gone. That's a collectible as opposed to just a second-hand thing...

As for brass in general, a pal of mine has dozens of HO brass locos, and he knows it's worth a fraction of what he paid for it, even comparing dollar-to-dollar (not even adjusting for inflation, which really shows how much the value has dropped). Let's face it; brass was popular in an era where most RTR stuff required a lot of work. Brass did, too (remember all those articles in the magazines on how to get brass running well?). Then, you had to pay someone to paint it as nobody seemed to know how to take the things apart and have them still running once they went back together. Heck, most of the RTR stuff you can get in about any scale these days is as detailed (maybe even more so) than brass was back then. it's no shock that the bottom has fallen out of the brass market.

Prices on collectibles are falling due to demographic changes too.   Young people in general do not engage in hobbies.   The greatest generation that was the consumption bulge in our economy is dying— and that has killed demand and pricing for fine rugs, art, furniture and trains!    Just wait for the next ten years when they liquidate their stocks to live!    That will be a real downer....

Yet, at some point demand will return and production will not exist...

those overland palace poultry cars?    125 made in o scale in 1986.   I have a half dozen and don’t regret it!

You think brass loses value?   Think how much value crumbling diecast has lost or will lose.

Buying trains is like loaning money to a relative, only  spend to the comfort level knowing you will get little or nothing back.

Some times it is good to loan a modest amount of money (just enough to shut up your spouse) to certain relatives guaranteeing that you will never see them again.

Some times it is good to loan a modest amount of money (just enough to shut up your spouse) to certain relatives guaranteeing that you will never see them again.

Yet, at some point demand will return and production will not exist...

There will be so much product on the street that it won't matter.
If there is demand for certain items, then someone will start up a basement operation. "
How much new product was there in 1971?

Tom Tee posted:

You think brass loses value?   Think how much value crumbling diecast has lost or will lose.

 

It's across the entire hobby spectrum. 

!983 to 1999 NASCAR items of all kinds were the hottest selling thing in hobbies. A buddy and I bought 50 cases of Bill Elliott 1983 Thunderbird model kits at $3 each, wholesale in 1983.  We held them until early 1990 and sold each for $100!!! Today....lucky if you get $10.... that's just the way it is today. 

This is a very interesting thread, Brass, and collectibility or purchasing for the looks of realism, or desire ability.. I can appreciate the detail Brass brings, but it’s out of my pocketbook.  I admire those Model Railroaders that run Brass, have fantastic railroads, I just am happy with die cast and plastic.  I am sold on Lionel VisionLine, Legacy, and the Legacy Control System. Regardless of what my collection may bring when I begin to liquidate, is ok, I enjoy running the trains I have, I take really good care of them.  So far, I have been lucky.  I am in the hobby for fun and relaxation and enjoyment, with many friends.  You can not place  a resale price on that.  I think Brass will always bring the most, depends on supply and demand. The new electronics today are highly desirable to me. Lionel is getting their feet wet with brass, the new Brass/Hybrid, with Legacy, which I BTO. Hopefully it will be nice.  Merry Christmas to All.

Simon Winter posted:

bob2 posted:

So, me too - what defines quality brass?

Should be of sufficient gauge that it doesn't collapse when you attempt to pick it up.

Should have all or most of the attributes of the prototype, to the extent that is possible considering the gauge.

Should be reasonably close to the dimensions of the prototype.

Should have a sturdy reliable Drive.

Simon

 

 

What are the metrics understandable by all for the following terms:

"Sufficient"....re metal gauge?

"Most"....re 1:1 attributes?

"Reasonably close"....re dimensional accuracy?

"Sturdy"....re reliable drive?

(Good grief, Charlie Brown!  I must be spending too much time in court listening to lawyers!!!)

This whole discussion reminds me of one of the lessons that adults have learned..."Raising teenagers is like nailing Jell-O to a tree."

IOW....defining quality brass is like nailing....etc.

and, BTW....I keep the following fact up-to-date behind our (LHS) counter for especially this season when a Lionel train set is frequently asked for....then reviled because of its msrp:  "My Lionel train set given to me in 1953 has a printed msrp of $49.95 on the box.  That same set would, adjusted for inflation according to US Government CPI data, cost $461.47 today, 2017."  It helps.

Whatever. 

KD

AMCDave posted:

Tom Tee posted:

You think brass loses value?   Think how much value crumbling diecast has lost or will lose. 

It's across the entire hobby spectrum. 

Two words: Beenie Babies

p51 posted:

AMCDave posted:

Tom Tee posted:

You think brass loses value?   Think how much value crumbling diecast has lost or will lose. 

It's across the entire hobby spectrum. 

Two words: Beenie Babies

Got that.....my daughter had a number of them when she was a child. I found them packed away not long ago.....including the rare version of the ghost that was selling at $1000.....but now is around $5....

Demographic cliff ...

2017 NMRA stats: The average age of membership is 68 , the average age of new members is 58

One day, the market will be flooded with thousands of brass models. Same thing for electric guitars, hot rods, HD motorcycles and the list goes on.  Even the real estate market is doomed as most millennials aren't buying homes.

Used brass prices have several factors with the three biggest in my view being quality, numbers and demand.   Today people want something that is prototypical and runs well.  While Overland was the leader, built beautiful models and ran as well or better than most competitors back then by today's standards they don't run well.  Kemtron didn't run, Oriental was a little better and PSC was better than most.  None of them run like the brass we get today.  The numbers produced of the same model built by multiple vendors are so far over demand  it drives the prices down.  As running ability improved so did factory paint.  People want things RTR so if you had brass that needed to be painted or rebuilt for running your price just went down.  Demand for a particular railroad or piece of equipment also influences price.   Look at Car and Locomotive Shops WM cabooses, there are so many other nice WM cabooses out there I have picked these beautiful cabooses up for very little while I have never seen a VGN Trainmaster for sale since he originally sold them.  Lord knows what it would cost if I do see one. 

If you think brass prices are going down look at Key Imports, Kohs and now Midwestern Models.  How many people are paying close to $3,000 for a Midwestern SD-45???   If you are buying brass as an investment you will never be my financial advisor.  If you are buying brass as a hobby that one day you hope to get some of your money back then you are much smarter than Beanie Baby collectors were........ ;-)

PAT44 posted:

Demographic cliff ...

Even the real estate market is doomed as most millennials aren't buying homes.

 

 

 

 

 

Millennials have delayed marriage and starting families.  They will begin buying homes once they start having families.  Immigration will pick up any remaining housing market slack.  Nearly everyone in the world wants to buy a piece of the USA because it is a relatively safe investment.  

I agree that brass model trains will probably lose value just because so many wonderful models are being made with other materials.  

NH Joe

New Haven Joe posted:

PAT44 posted:

Demographic cliff ...

Even the real estate market is doomed as most millennials aren't buying homes. 

Millennials have delayed marriage and starting families.  They will begin buying homes once they start having families.  Immigration will pick up any remaining housing market slack.  Nearly everyone in the world wants to buy a piece of the USA because it is a relatively safe investment.  

Yep, just try looking into a home or condo in a big city (except Detroit) . You probably can't afford it.

Millennials are doing what I did (I'm 48 now). I got married at 30 and didn't buy a house until a few years after that. I can't fault them for not stacking up crushing responsibilities the moment they get done with school.

2017 NMRA stats: The average age of membership is 68 , the average age of new members is 58

One day, the market will be flooded with thousands of brass models. Same thing for electric guitars, hot rods, HD motorcycles and the list goes on.

Previously expensive RR books are now being had for good prices because of this. I bought a book on the Milwaukee Road that I never saw for under about $125 a decade ago, for less than $30 recently. Drives the book guys at RR shows nuts, trying to sell for the old high-end prices when people can get them way cheaper online (and tell them as such before walking away from the table without buying anything). And why? Because the original owners are croaking.

Like I wrote earlier, I'm in my late 40s, and each time I enter a NMRA event, the median age drops at least a decade by my presence. Sure, I see younger people than me at some of their events, but not many.

A pal of mine was a member of a huge ham radio club. He wrote me last month that they officially disbanded the club because the majority of the existing members have all given up as they're too old to go to events or use radios anymore. He said there were less than ten members under the age of 70, and none younger than their 40s.

The irony is that the family members of the ones who've passed are shocked to find that nobody wants to buy the radio gear and many can't find anyone to even donate it to. They're hitting the hard reality of what they thought would be a pay day turned out to be a bust.

Think of model train magazines when a model train guy croaks. Sound familiar?

New Haven Joe posted:

PAT44 posted:

Demographic cliff ...

Even the real estate market is doomed as most millennials aren't buying homes.

 

 

 

 

 

Millennials have delayed marriage and starting families.  They will begin buying homes once they start having families.  Immigration will pick up any remaining housing market slack.  Nearly everyone in the world wants to buy a piece of the USA because it is a relatively safe investment.  

I agree that brass model trains will probably lose value just because so many wonderful models are being made with other materials.  

NH Joe

I’m a millennial and by the time I’m finished with school I’ll be 300k in debt, do you blame us for not buying homes .

PAT44 posted:

Demographic cliff ...

2017 NMRA stats: The average age of membership is 68 , the average age of new members is 58

One day, the market will be flooded with thousands of brass models. Same thing for electric guitars, hot rods, HD motorcycles and the list goes on.  Even the real estate market is doomed as most millennials aren't buying homes.

 

 

 

 

 

Lots of folks point to HD as a business on life support due to age demographics. 

I always tell them as long as people get old there will be Harleys.

Perspective:

About 7 or 8 years ago a custom engine builder and painter was showing me a Lionel boxcar he was painting.  At that time he said the brass market just has to keep going down because there is no way that brass builders can compete with the increasing level of plastic detail now available. 

That brought to  mind something I did quite a while ago.  I had a friend, long departed, who had a great collection of 0 scale brass.  Everything, engines, passenger cars, all manner of freight cars.  He just ran them round and round like a proud race horse owner bragging about his thoroughbreds.  Swore there was nothing like real brass.  One day I snuck two Intermountain PFE reefers into his string of brass PFE reefers and put two $20. bills on the track.  One for each "hunk of junk" plastic cars he could pick out.  Out of 25 PFE cars he guessed on a few brass cars but failed to identify the plastic ones. 

So I picked up the money and turned  on the power.  He listened to his string of rattling tin cans going by until the two silent ones rode by  and just shook his head. 

Be that as it may - plastic just doesn't do it for me.

Tom Tee posted:

Perspective:

About 7 or 8 years ago a custom engine builder and painter was showing me a Lionel boxcar he was painting.  At that time he said the brass market just has to keep going down because there is no way that brass builders can compete with the increasing level of plastic detail now available. 

That brought to  mind something I did quite a while ago.  I had a friend, long departed, who had a great collection of 0 scale brass.  Everything, engines, passenger cars, all manner of freight cars.  He just ran them round and round like a proud race horse owner bragging about his thoroughbreds.  Swore there was nothing like real brass.  One day I snuck two Intermountain PFE reefers into his string of brass PFE reefers and put two $20. bills on the track.  One for each "hunk of junk" plastic cars he could pick out.  Out of 25 PFE cars he guessed on a few brass cars but failed to identify the plastic ones. 

So I picked up the money and turned  on the power.  He listened to his string of rattling tin cans going by until the two silent ones rode by  and just shook his head. 

Sounds like he needed glasses.

Rule292 posted:

PAT44 posted:

Demographic cliff ...

2017 NMRA stats: The average age of membership is 68 , the average age of new members is 58

One day, the market will be flooded with thousands of brass models. Same thing for electric guitars, hot rods, HD motorcycles and the list goes on.  Even the real estate market is doomed as most millennials aren't buying homes.

 

 

 

 

 

Lots of folks point to HD as a business on life support due to age demographics. 

I always tell them as long as people get old there will be Harleys.

 

 

Like brass trains, pre and postwar Lionels, the market for old HD's has gone down in value, w/the exception of 1966 to 1969 shovelheads which in the past 5-7 yrs have been slowly climbing in resale value.   

Trussman posted:

Rule292 posted:

PAT44 posted:

Demographic cliff ...

2017 NMRA stats: The average age of membership is 68 , the average age of new members is 58

One day, the market will be flooded with thousands of brass models. Same thing for electric guitars, hot rods, HD motorcycles and the list goes on.  Even the real estate market is doomed as most millennials aren't buying homes.

 

 

 

 

 

Lots of folks point to HD as a business on life support due to age demographics. 

I always tell them as long as people get old there will be Harleys.

 

 

Like brass trains, pre and postwar Lionels, the market for old HD's has gone down in value, w/the exception of 1966 to 1969 shovelheads which in the past 5-7 yrs have been slowly climbing in resale value.   

That's a bit different than the brass market. 

That is mostly due to the age demographic shift.    That's why there are fewer and fewer steam era modelers than in the 60's and more modern prototype modelers. 

At some point in time 69 Camaros with DZ 302's will be worth less than a mid 90's Subaru WRX STi.    I would think the 60's chopper era hasn't yet peaked thus the 60's shovels hold value. Things such as ironhead Sportys, which don't have the Captain America era lure, can be had very reasonably priced.

I wonder how well Erik Stott would do selling modern prototype brass cars at the appropriate premium price. 

Rule292 posted:

...

I wonder how well Erik Stott would do selling modern prototype brass cars at the appropriate premium price. 

Midwestern is trying to get enough reservations to build brass modern lumber cars for $500 each.  Lets just say he's at about 10% of what he needs.

As far as I'm concerned, it's all over-valued.  Lots of people jumped on a craze and overpaid.  Others got in deep manufacturing them and missed their window.  Pecos just sold at auction one of their remaining 4-6-4s for a bit over $300 (I know cause I was bidding).  2 sellers have had them listed at prices twice or more than that for months.  Pecos just listed another with a minimum of $400.  So he's abandoned the idea that there's a market and he's established a bottom line - we'll see if anybody buys. I know where I'm at... i'm not paying $400. 

Too many of these brass locomotives in all scales are sitting on the auction sites with what I would consider over-valued prices.  Yes, bidding gets up on some models here or there, but most the stuff that hits the auction sites sits.  It sits because it's not worth the bottom dollar asking price.  Meanwhile, most of the auctions are drawing a bit more than items are actually worth -  since most available stock is over-valued, the few niche buyers are spending up on auctions to get as close to value as possible on accessible inventory.  

I like Brass locomotives and I like steam in particular and I'm 36 which makes me pretty rare in this hobby.  From my perspective, I see no reason to pay a ton of money for anything at this time.  I'm only buying at bottom dollar.  There is just too much opportunity on the horizon not to be patient and frugal. 

Rule292 posted:

Trussman posted:

Rule292 posted:

PAT44 posted:

Demographic cliff ...

2017 NMRA stats: The average age of membership is 68 , the average age of new members is 58

One day, the market will be flooded with thousands of brass models. Same thing for electric guitars, hot rods, HD motorcycles and the list goes on.  Even the real estate market is doomed as most millennials aren't buying homes.

 

 

 

 

 

Lots of folks point to HD as a business on life support due to age demographics. 

I always tell them as long as people get old there will be Harleys.

 

 

Like brass trains, pre and postwar Lionels, the market for old HD's has gone down in value, w/the exception of 1966 to 1969 shovelheads which in the past 5-7 yrs have been slowly climbing in resale value.   

That's a bit different than the brass market. 

That is mostly due to the age demographic shift.    That's why there are fewer and fewer steam era modelers than in the 60's and more modern prototype modelers. 

At some point in time 69 Camaros with DZ 302's will be worth less than a mid 90's Subaru WRX STi.    I would think the 60's chopper era hasn't yet peaked thus the 60's shovels hold value. Things such as ironhead Sportys, which don't have the Captain America era lure, can be had very reasonably priced.

I wonder how well Erik Stott would do selling modern prototype brass cars at the appropriate premium price. 

Not much different then the brass market.

Back in the 90's if you were able to buy an HD you had to pay the dealers price ( no haggling, that's their price, you want it, you pay it), you could walk out and resell it for 1-2k more. Like brass trains, back then a lot had intensions for an investment, but the 2000's came and the market was flooded w/new HD's (yr 2002, production approx 200,000 HD's). Today the dealer will deal on price. Also as time went on, yes, your right the age demographic changed, like trains and motorcycles, the buyers now a days want the new technology. 

 Ironheads, very affordable for some one who wants to get an old iron.  

Trussman posted:

Rule292 posted:

Trussman posted:

Rule292 posted:

PAT44 posted:

Demographic cliff ...

2017 NMRA stats: The average age of membership is 68 , the average age of new members is 58

One day, the market will be flooded with thousands of brass models. Same thing for electric guitars, hot rods, HD motorcycles and the list goes on.  Even the real estate market is doomed as most millennials aren't buying homes.

 

 

 

 

 

Lots of folks point to HD as a business on life support due to age demographics. 

I always tell them as long as people get old there will be Harleys.

 

 

Like brass trains, pre and postwar Lionels, the market for old HD's has gone down in value, w/the exception of 1966 to 1969 shovelheads which in the past 5-7 yrs have been slowly climbing in resale value.   

That's a bit different than the brass market. 

That is mostly due to the age demographic shift.    That's why there are fewer and fewer steam era modelers than in the 60's and more modern prototype modelers. 

At some point in time 69 Camaros with DZ 302's will be worth less than a mid 90's Subaru WRX STi.    I would think the 60's chopper era hasn't yet peaked thus the 60's shovels hold value. Things such as ironhead Sportys, which don't have the Captain America era lure, can be had very reasonably priced.

I wonder how well Erik Stott would do selling modern prototype brass cars at the appropriate premium price. 

Not much different then the brass market.

Back in the 90's if you were able to buy an HD you had to pay the dealers price ( no haggling, that's their price, you want it, you pay it), you could walk out and resell it for 1-2k more. Like brass trains, back then a lot had intensions for an investment, but the 2000's came and the market was flooded w/new HD's (yr 2002, production approx 200,000 HD's). Today the dealer will deal on price. Also as time went on, yes, your right the age demographic changed, like trains and motorcycles, the buyers now a days want the new technology. 

 Ironheads, very affordable for some one who wants to get an old iron.  

 

This is very true. I'm also a rare case in the hobby being 15 and it's not very common to see kids like me who collect Postwar. That said, like Trussman mentioned, everyone likes the electronics. I don't know what I would do without DCS. Complex wiring? No thanks. I'll stick to the great sound and hand-held command-control. 

Converting a 2-rail brass locomotive that was never designed for sound to proto 3 in 3 rail would be a nightmare. Glad Lionel has the right idea with the Hybrid Mikes, my future Legacy system may have a use other than controlling a non-powered engine.

I don't think it matters what they are made of. (Brass or plastic)

When the "boomers" are gone, the market for all of our prized trains will evaporate. For every fifty boomers in the hobby today, I doubt if more than one young person comes in.  Our kids will be selling them off at less than 25 cents on the dollar. Sad but true.

GVDobler posted:

I don't think it matters what they are made of. (Brass or plastic)

When the "boomers" are gone, the market for all of our prized trains will evaporate. For every fifty boomers in the hobby today, I doubt if more than one young person comes in.  Our kids will be selling them off at less than 25 cents on the dollar. Sad but true.

Man I can only imagine getting legendary items such as the 1950 773 and early 50's 736 at those prices. 

That's the catch 22. If you are a boomer, like me, you won't see those prices, but your kids will. Whatever you have is worth less than it was yesterday and more the it will be tomorrow.

We had a discussion like this a few years ago, and now it is starting to play out.

Rule292 posted:

Tom Tee posted:

Perspective:

About 7 or 8 years ago a custom engine builder and painter was showing me a Lionel boxcar he was painting.  At that time he said the brass market just has to keep going down because there is no way that brass builders can compete with the increasing level of plastic detail now available.

Sounds like he needed glasses.

It's not that he needed glasses.  The issue is that plastic has gotten so good that plastic will bleed off a good size of the brass buying market further reducing the potential to produce an attractively priced quality brass model.  Thus reducing the run size while by shear lack of volume further  increases fabrication costs, which pushes the new brass price higher.  That, when coupled with stagnate or fixed  income and associated rising medical  costs causes consumer pull back.   Working in the financial sector I am witnessing significant evaporation of discretionary funds and an elevated credit reliance.

Another constricting new market challenge is the increasing quantity of decent estate sales and auctions selling at low tide numbers.  I found it shocking when I walked into the Indy show and saw dozens of tables loaded with crazy low priced estate product.    The Indy pricing was too much temptation for me.  At pennies on the dollar it just was too easy jumping back into quality brass.   There is just something really sweet about decent brass.

The two stand out dependable and honest importers, SS and RY,  are the best hope of continuous quality 0 scale brass IMO.

IMHO:  If I knew what would appreciate in the future, I would have bought up it in the past.

Sure, there are some fine models going for cheap at auction, and those that paid more for them originally, got what they wanted, and now they expect them to appreciate like a fine wine, or vintage sports car, or rare piece of art in less than 20 years, NOT. But the fact of the matter is, Brass is the best medium for making model steam engines because it doesn't deteriorate over time. Plastic, die-cast all oxidize and eventually give in to the ravages of time. But brass, an alloy of Copper and Zinc, doesn't oxidize, and when painted well, lasts a lifetime if not more.

The current market price of anything is based on the "Current Market". Right now there is too much supply and not enough demand on the secondary market for model trains. Give it 100 years.

In 1974, my Dad started Sunset Models (43 years ago). His first model was the HO GN O-1  Mikado. He made 1000 of them and they were pre-sold out before the boat docked. This was a nicely detailed model, made in Japan by MKT, I think, and the retail price was $79. It was painted brass color, had a mashima motor, ran like a watch and they still are running today. Now that I call value.

So is brass losing value today?   Sure, if you paid too much... But will they be worthless 50 years from now, probably not. They will be traded and coveted like fine wines, some of them.

Eventually, I will pass on and most of the other brass importers and engineers and small factories as well. And the art of making a brass model may be lost. What then will happen to the value of brass models?

Today, it's very VERY expensive to make a brass model. Labor all around Asia is approaching Western standards, technology has passed the brass manufacturing process by. Things are still made the old fashioned way with details produced by the Lost-Wax Casting process, and assembly performed by skilled artisans with big soldering irons, taps and screwdrivers. Sure, some of the gears and bushings and frames are made with a CNC machine, but essentially these models are hand made pieces of art. Will they lose their value in 100 years.... how can they. It's art. The value is in the eye of the beholder.

So if you see something you like and you like the price and you buy it, and it brings you Joy, then you have done a good thing for yourself.

Cheers All, Happy Holidays and Enjoy your hobby. There's a lot of really cool stuff out there.

And we are planning a lot of cool stuff next year. It isn't cheap, but it's really good. Will it make you rich, yes, your life will be more rich than before.

Scott

New Haven Joe posted:

PAT44 posted:

Demographic cliff ...

Even the real estate market is doomed as most millennials aren't buying homes.

 

 

 

 

 

Millennials have delayed marriage and starting families.  They will begin buying homes once they start having families.  Immigration will pick up any remaining housing market slack.  Nearly everyone in the world wants to buy a piece of the USA because it is a relatively safe investment.  

I agree that brass model trains will probably lose value just because so many wonderful models are being made with other materials.  

NH Joe

"Katie Scalett O'Hara, the only thing worth anything is the land, Tara."

Larry

The last few years, I've been buying brass on ebay, probably 40 pieces, all steam, some electric. 

I buy them:

1) This is the only way to get a specific engine that I want.  Today's manufacturers make what is popular and will sell, ie, pennsy, UP, SF, etc.

2) Brass engines made in the 70-80's are selling for about what they were sold for, 'back then'.  A lot of them are 'new', 'in the box' and haven't even been run. 

3)  They run extremely well and most have can motors.  I'm not sure where the 'idea' that 'they don't run well' comes from but I haven't had to re-gear or re-motor any of my engines that I have bought in the last few years.  Engines made before around early 70's will have open frame motors but installing a can motor is very easy.  I can't speak for the brass diesels as I have none.  I have 92 engines and they all run like fine watches.  OK, I do have a GN W-1 electric that growls a lot but it still runs fine.

4)  They have detail like this, shown in the pictures, that is not going to be on a contemporary made engine.  Everyone may not care about detail but I enjoy looking at a well detailed steam engine.

5) One opinion is not better than the other.  Each of us has his own 'needs' and enjoying the hobby is what matters and most of all, the camaraderie with my fellow railroaders is half the fun. 

ps: All engines get painted and lighted: my winter projects.

Functioning turret hatches with internal details.

See through walk boards

Functioning cab doors with nicely detailed cab.

Functioning deck plate.

Functioning smoke box door: with inside details.

I like brass locomotives.  In particular,if I like a specific model and want to spend some of my hard earned cash,I do it.  I really don't care about it's value after that.  My family can carry that heavy burden afterwards.

I am a lucky guy.

Norm

At the end of the year, I send an updated list of 'values' of my hobbies (4 of them), as well as other stuff: ie, stock, house, to my daughter (executor) so she has some idea of their value.  I also indicate who to contact for selling (stouts auction and brass trains are excellent).

Important, but I suspect many have not, but I have the 3 wills done in case I die, 'pull the plug' will, and I can't make decisions on my own.  They only cost 300 bucks and is a lot cheaper and faster than probate court, should no 'will' exist.

I plan on enjoying my hobbies until I croak and she can then 'do what she wants' with them.

Scott the man posted

Today, it's very VERY expensive to make a brass model. Labor all around Asia is approaching Western standards, technology has passed the brass manufacturing process by.

 

 

Scott ,   Does this hint of the possibility of bringing at least some of the work stateside?????

I am still happy that trains will give me or my heirs a little return. Just think if we all spent what we did for trains on beer and shots in the bar all the time. How much return would you get from that besides a hangover, nothing for your heirs. 

The other thing I want to say is I always read about the lack of interest by the younger generation, I am only in my mid 30’s and the club my dad and I belong to has better than 1/3 of the members less than 40. We sell to alot of younger modelers who modify and scratchbuild. My honest observation of this is people in this hobby say 60+ have grown up going to trains shows swap meets etc... to find their gems, most of the younger people have been use to buying everything online and that seems to be where most of the younger buy their trains and parts. So I think this misconception by some that there are not any younger people is based off declining show attendance by younger people not that the hobby is doomed. 

To be honest I think it’s the negative ideas like this that I see posted and hear all the time at the train shows that the hobby is dead or dying which is hurting it to potential newcomers in the hobby. Think if you were looking to get into this hobby and came across a thread like this first you would scratch this hobby off the list quickly. Instead of lamenting about what your collection is worth get out there and build and modify show what you can do. If you show what can be done in this hobby and the skills that can be learned. You can help create more demand for the hobby. Every year at our club open house the attendance rises and we pick up new members because we take it from the weird guy in his basement to wow didn’t know this could be done. In fact a few club business meetings ago we had to vote to remove the cap of how many members were allowed in our bylaws.

Anyway get out there and build, buy brass, plastic, diecast, clay, whatever you can afford and makes you happy. 

Supply and demand. Until you change that market dynamic, prices will always be fluid.

BH

To be honest I think it’s the negative ideas like this that I see posted and hear all the time at the train shows that the hobby is dead or dying which is hurting it to potential newcomers in the hobby. Think if you were looking to get into this hobby and came across a thread like this first you would scratch this hobby off the list quickly.

Not as much as today's prices and all the emphasis on the latest and greatest bells  / whistles are hurting the hobby.
Is it good for the hobby for people to read that the cherished postwar train set they had passed down to them is junk and they should spend a small fortune to get something modern?

When prices get low enough, there might be an influx of new people.

One more thought: In how many hobbies is the money spent considered to be recoverable?

I'm sure the new technology and detailed plastic trains has something to do with the decrease in value to brass trains. I strongly believe a lot has to do with the internet, especially ebay. Prior to the internet, if you wanted a certain piece, whether it was a train, classic vehicle part, baseball card, comic book, etc etc, there was the thrill of the hunt. You had to go to a meet, specialty shop or know someone who knows some who has what your looking for which in turn kept the value up. Now you can just sit at the tube and find all the hard to find items at your finger tips. Yes, the internet has leveled the collecting field for the  rare hard to find items for the average person.

As for the family selling my trains after I roll a 7 and start pushing up daisies. What ever they get for them, it's all 100% profit to them. ;-) 

Good point on the internet.  One can get a 'real time' value of an item by looking at the 'sold' section.  Now one has the entire country to find items. 

I have two geiger 130' turntables that were made back in the 70's.  By chance, someone on ebay was selling the complete motorized unit, new, in the box (cost a whole 10 bucks bought as a 'backup') : what's the chance of finding that if I went to a 1000 train shows?

Modeling the west (GN) and living in the east (Ohio), my chances of find GN steam engines at train shows is next to nil. 

If we want something, that gratification can be, usually, met in days or weeks.

I don't care what my trains that I have bought are worth or not worth. I bought my trains to enjoy and meet friends and have fun. 

If your buying trains with the expectation of them increasing in value no matter how high end they may be, your a fool. Buy them to run, have fun and make friends. 

Dave

Seems as if brass isn't much different than anything else.

Things of rarity or quality will always have some value. 

And the constant "generation gap" means that some things will diminish in value whilst others increase as old collectors die off and newer/younger ones want things from THEIR time in life. 

And the net has made finding things easier.  Not necessarily cheaper.  

A thirty dollar Nylint 6600 Ford Truck with mobile home from the 60's  still fetches hundreds of dollars used and anywhere from a grand to a few grand NIB.  Will it always fetch that?   Most likely not after those of us who relish|cherish them die off.

No different with brass or baseball cards or Star Wars collectibles.

samparfitt posted:

Functioning smoke box door: with inside details.

 

 

 

Who made this beauty, OMI or Key?

Love it, especially the TTG and white.  Stunning model, would love to see more in its own thread...

Key made the UP northern.  Have it with silver as well as yellow striping plus the 2-tone challenger. 

Key was making some super detailed stuff around the 90's.

See my thread for more pictures.

UP northern is about a 1/4 down in this thread:

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...thern-railway?page=8     

 Here's the UP challenger, near the bottom of the page.

Also, there's some pictures of the SP cab forwards on this page by key.

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...thern-railway?page=2  

Rule292 posted:

Things of rarity or quality will always have some value.

Required 3rd variable - desirability. 

Good one.

on those beautiful opening hatches - not in my shop.  If a friend brings such a model by for repairs, all those hatches and doors must be fastened shut some way.  

3M makes a 'wall safe' tape that's good for keeping hatches closed.  The grand kids and neighborhood kids play with the 3 rail stuff (excluding the 3rd rail stuff): hands off, look only, on the scale stuff!

I'm surprised they can make such tiny functioning detail parts.  I do a lot of soldering repairs when stuff is loose or broken, but no way have the 'skill set' to make such items.  I also do my own painting but, again, no way could I duplicate the factory paint jobs when they involve thin striping. 

Anyone make any brass buys lately?   Price?  Good|bad|ugly?

Watched some PL cars and miscellaneous brass (PRR Cabeese (oops cabins) go for a fair price.  The were close to what they sold for new years ago if not slightly above.

"I don't care what my trains that I have bought are worth or not worth. I bought my trains to enjoy and meet friends and have fun. 

If your buying trains with the expectation of them increasing in value no matter how high end they may be, your a fool. Buy them to run, have fun and make friends". 

Dave

Once in a while someone writes something that makes sense. I'm with you Dave. Roo.

I’ve got a few pieces on order from MMW. prices are great for what I expect to get but that’s preorder stuff. Haven’t bought anything off the secondary market because the only things I want I don’t want from the guys selling them but the prices are sweet. Half what new is. Trains are cheap and you can get really nice stuff these days for a great price but that comes at somebody else’s expense.

david1 posted:

I don't care what my trains that I have bought are worth or not worth. I bought my trains to enjoy and meet friends and have fun.

Dave

Exactly how I feel, Dave. I bought the trains because I like them and enjoy owning them. I admire them every day as I walk through the house. Some of them I run, others I just look at. But I prefer to keep what I have rather than sell and buy.

MELGAR

Interesting that you like post-war and electronics. I had converted about 15 post-war engines to TMCC. I'm selling all my post-war and have just two of my favorites left. A 2360 GG-1 and a 2321 FM Trainmaster. Both of these are twin motors. The GG-1 still has the original horn but the FM has Railsounds. 

I love this feature!

samparfitt posted:

Key made the UP northern.  Have it with silver as well as yellow striping plus the 2-tone challenger. 

Key was making some super detailed stuff around the 90's.

See my thread for more pictures.

UP northern is about a 1/4 down in this thread:

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...thern-railway?page=8     

 Here's the UP challenger, near the bottom of the page.

Also, there's some pictures of the SP cab forwards on this page by key.

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...thern-railway?page=2  

 

Thanks, I just took a look at your thread.  Very nice models-a bit of an understatement.

The UP 'bald face' 9000 is an item of beauty!  It's on my list of modifications in O Scale...

As I read your thread, I enjoyed your view of life and money.  We share similar ideas.

Now, I'll have to check your thread!

86TA355SR posted:

samparfitt posted:

Key made the UP northern.  Have it with silver as well as yellow striping plus the 2-tone challenger. 

Key was making some super detailed stuff around the 90's.

See my thread for more pictures.

UP northern is about a 1/4 down in this thread:

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...thern-railway?page=8     

 Here's the UP challenger, near the bottom of the page.

Also, there's some pictures of the SP cab forwards on this page by key.

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...thern-railway?page=2  

 

Thanks, I just took a look at your thread.  Very nice models-a bit of an understatement.

The UP 'bald face' 9000 is an item of beauty!  It's on my list of modifications in O Scale...

As I read your thread, I enjoyed your view of life and money.  We share similar ideas.

Now, I'll have to check your thread!

 

There's a Wasatch UP postal baggage car for sale on you know where right now.  It's an odd era car but what a state of the art piece of brass. gorgeous!!!

They are nice models, but hard to pay that price for an unpainted model...

Whether it looses value or not, does not concern me. All I know is the more I look at it, the more I like it!

3rd Rail S-4

Protocraft AAR

Key MILW E6

Key E1

I have come to this thread rather late.  My personal opinion of brass models is they don't do anything for me.  I don't see the reason for unpainted models.  Painted models, on the other hand, would find a place on my layout if they were affordable.  But I suspect that most if not all brass models are fine scale.  I don't think they would like to run on tubular track.....LOL

Eric at MMW has pitched a modern brass freight car, a centerbeam flat car [ state of the art of course ] so time will tell if this model gets enough interest to get produced, the issue with modern freight cars and diesels you really want to own at least a pair of diesels and a few of any modern freight car [ substantial effect on the cost factor] JMO

I do not have a layout and I never will.  I am only interested in a layout where I can run 100 car plus trains around prototypical radius curves and prototypical grades with prototypically sized terminals which means a minimum of 10K square feet just to start.  The artistry of scenery does not interest me so framework alone would be just fine.  But I am interested in the the art and craftsmanship resulting in very accurate miniatures of the real thing displayed by many brass models and, of late several plastic models.  The reason I offer my services to Scott Mann at no cost it to get the models he produces as close to real as his builder will do without going out of Scott's price comfort zone.

So, having said that, MTH offers no value to me at any price and Lionel is only slightly better.  My entire collection of MTH is two ES44s in demo colors and am thinking about the recent Lionel GE demonstrators because that is all that is available (I'm a sucker for demonstrators).  Should brass replacements ever become reality for those they will be replaced with the brass regardless.

And it is not just trains for me.  I am working on or collecting models of ships and planes and science fiction.  A highly believable miniature of a Millennium Falcon is just as interesting to me as a locomotive.  If I had the money to get a Fine Art Models CSS Alabama I'd get it too.

What is the value of any painting or a sculpture or other art?  There are many people who wouldn't pay $10 for the Mona Lisa just as a painting but the market for art says something very different.  The value to me is in the artistry and craftsmanship.

A valuable painting or a Ferrari or brass trains may just be a toys to you, but not to me.

rdunniii posted:

I do not have a layout and I never will.  I am only interested in a layout where I can run 100 car plus trains around prototypical radius curves and prototypical grades with prototypically sized terminals which means a minimum of 10K square feet just to start.  The artistry of scenery does not interest me...

Thus the reason I've often entertained doing outdoor O Scale.  

It would be much easier to run prototype length trains with somewhat realistic length runs of track. 

Though nothing beats the fun of 1:1 scale railroading. 

I can sort of identify with that.  I have only test loops with switch points and frogs at places where they might cause problems.  Once a locomotive can make it around my horrible track, strategic switches, and drastic superelevation, it is often put on display.  More or less forever.

I agree with the idea that a locomotive is art, but mass produced art is pushing it a bit.  So a nice K-Line plastic Train Master, while quite accurate, is just a toy, and my 17/64 scale Cab Forwards are indeed art - in my opinion.

Either way, I do not do O Scale for the bucks.  It is a hobby, flat-out, and when I croak, it will have fully served its purpose.  Any bucks to my estate will be over and above that.

rdunniii posted:

I do not have a layout and I never will.  I am only interested in a layout where I can run 100 car plus trains around prototypical radius curves and prototypical grades with prototypically sized terminals which means a minimum of 10K square feet just to start.  The artistry of scenery does not interest me so framework alone would be just fine.  But I am interested in the the art and craftsmanship resulting in very accurate miniatures of the real thing displayed by many brass models and, of late several plastic models.  The reason I offer my services to Scott Mann at no cost it to get the models he produces as close to real as his builder will do without going out of Scott's price comfort zone.

So, having said that, MTH offers no value to me at any price and Lionel is only slightly better.  My entire collection of MTH is two ES44s in demo colors and am thinking about the recent Lionel GE demonstrators because that is all that is available (I'm a sucker for demonstrators).  Should brass replacements ever become reality for those they will be replaced with the brass regardless.

And it is not just trains for me.  I am working on or collecting models of ships and planes and science fiction.  A highly believable miniature of a Millennium Falcon is just as interesting to me as a locomotive.  If I had the money to get a Fine Art Models CSS Alabama I'd get it too.

What is the value of any painting or a sculpture or other art?  There are many people who wouldn't pay $10 for the Mona Lisa just as a painting but the market for art says something very different.  The value to me is in the artistry and craftsmanship.

A valuable painting or a Ferrari or brass trains may just be a toys to you, but not to me.

Isn't that what is wonderful about this hobby? You and I couldn't be more opposite on most of the points you made, but here we are enjoying the same hobby I'm a nut that wants smoke and sound units in my 2 rail steam engines regardless of what materials they are constructed from. But I can appreciate your affection for fine scale models.

Actually, I've long contended that brass train collecting was really a different hobby from the people who build and operate layouts. Still trains, but very different priorities even if there is some overlap.

You probably know this, but if you like racing automobiles or scale models in general take a look at Exoto models http://www.exoto.com/ they are some of the most intricate and amazing miniatures that I've ever seen.

jonnyspeed posted:

rdunniii posted:

I do not have a layout and I never will.  I am only interested in a layout where I can run 100 car plus trains around prototypical radius curves and prototypical grades with prototypically sized terminals which means a minimum of 10K square feet just to start.  The artistry of scenery does not interest me so framework alone would be just fine.  But I am interested in the the art and craftsmanship resulting in very accurate miniatures of the real thing displayed by many brass models and, of late several plastic models.  The reason I offer my services to Scott Mann at no cost it to get the models he produces as close to real as his builder will do without going out of Scott's price comfort zone.

So, having said that, MTH offers no value to me at any price and Lionel is only slightly better.  My entire collection of MTH is two ES44s in demo colors and am thinking about the recent Lionel GE demonstrators because that is all that is available (I'm a sucker for demonstrators).  Should brass replacements ever become reality for those they will be replaced with the brass regardless.

And it is not just trains for me.  I am working on or collecting models of ships and planes and science fiction.  A highly believable miniature of a Millennium Falcon is just as interesting to me as a locomotive.  If I had the money to get a Fine Art Models CSS Alabama I'd get it too.

What is the value of any painting or a sculpture or other art?  There are many people who wouldn't pay $10 for the Mona Lisa just as a painting but the market for art says something very different.  The value to me is in the artistry and craftsmanship.

A valuable painting or a Ferrari or brass trains may just be a toys to you, but not to me.

Isn't that what is wonderful about this hobby? You and I couldn't be more opposite on most of the points you made, but here we are enjoying the same hobby I'm a nut that wants smoke and sound units in my 2 rail steam engines regardless of what materials they are constructed from. But I can appreciate your affection for fine scale models.

Actually, I've long contended that brass train collecting was really a different hobby from the people who build and operate layouts. Still trains, but very different priorities even if there is some overlap.

You probably know this, but if you like racing automobiles or scale models in general take a look at Exoto models http://www.exoto.com/ they are some of the most intricate and amazing miniatures that I've ever seen.

I've a decent "collection" of brass cars but I'm collecting them only for one reason - when I build my layout I want my cars to be accurate scale models for the era/locale that I am modeling, southwestern Pennsylvania coal and coke country in the early 1940's. 

If all plastic cars were as well detailed and as accurate as the Glacier Park Models GS gondola or the San Juan Car Company boxcars  (or the Grandt Line UTLX frameless tank car) I wouldn't own any brass. 

Unfortunately the only way to get an accurate and diverse freight car fleet is to buy brass or scratchbuild them.