Brass SD45 Production samples

Nice brass, Matt.

Mine will have paint on them

Matt,

C&NW SD45 don't have dynamic brakes.

Yes some of them did. I don't see a bell on the nose of any of those locomotives so that would mean none of those are Chicago Northwestern units. The SD45s that the CNW ordered new did not have dynamics but they got a bunch second hand off Conrail that did have dynamics

Matt Makens posted:

Yes some of them did. I don't see a bell on the nose of any of those locomotives so that would mean none of those are Chicago Northwestern units. The SD45s that the CNW ordered new did not have dynamics but they got a bunch second hand off Conrail that did have dynamics

You are correct, when C&NW got second hands from BN and Conrail, they disabled dynamics.

Wish I was rich, they sure are pretty.  Eye candy.

I'm not rich and was able to get two. Erik is really solid guy and his ability to bring this project to life is impressive to say the least. I'm very excited for the SD40-2s

I was a skeptic.  Delighted to see it is actually going to happen!

A few more shots. Erik with his builder Mr. Song. The trucks have a three piece traction motors.

Sheesh!  SD45, SD45-2, SDP45, SD40T-2 Snoot, SD45T-2.

Can't go wrong with any of those!!

I was definitely stunned by the level of detail....the photos don't do them justice. 

I saw Erik's custom drive at the Indy show several years ago and thought it was superb! Now seeing these pics of the bodies that will mate with the drive, makes these absolutely fantastic. I'm glad to see these samples. Thanks for posting the pics!

They will even have traction motors in them 

 I'm going to add a congrats to anyone getting anyone of these. They do look great.

I wish I could even just get those cooling grates on the tunnel motors. I could use them on a G scale build I'm doing. Nice detailing.

in a word, unbelievable. 

Dick

Very Nice!  I wish for a Espee SD-45X, I hope you will make one some day.

mobyduck posted:

Very Nice!  I wish for a Espee SD-45X, I hope you will make one some day.

Oh in your dreams buddy. from Freddy Hanosa  aka froggy

He is and he just told me he might have one you can get if you email him

Matt: Thanks for the photos and I am very glad you are getting a fine piece or ART. SD45 production delivery is looking to be around January 2018. Erik is machining the drive and the final assembly most likely be done overseas. The first photo of the pilot samples is the Santa Fe. The motors for each of the fans  are slightly larger the an pencil eraser. The photos of the truck do not have the brake cylinders in installed yet. The model as anticipated has gone further than any model to date with never before fully modeled trucks, 3D modeled screens, actual modeled traction motors, working fan speeds that will coincide the speed notch of the locomotive, working louvers on the tunnel motor versions, step lights, and even a high end drive that runs and concealed in the model, etc.  A "FIRST CLASS" diesel with all the right stuff!   KUDOS TO ERIK on a job well done so far!!!!!!!  Well worth the wait to have a model as good as this.       

Stephen

Brass IS Class!

Out if curiosity, who's the builder? Is it a new one? I'd buy a Q GP7 if the offer them.

He told me but I forget it's a Dream World or something to that effect. Dream is mo definitely the first word. 

The builder is the Asian gentleman on the right in the photos above

Very impressive, DCC, Sound?

No DCC or sound, he has a remote control lighting system that is pretty impressive that uses an AC injector to the rail to activate the digital lighting control. I asked him about DCC and he didn't put DCC in it because he is trying to keep the price point at $2700. DCC would add a few hundred bucks to that. Mine are both getting LOKSound

Was there any mention of the proposed Norfolk Southern '' Heritage'' locomotives?

Beautiful locomotives and Erik's work is state of the art to say the least.  I'd certainly justify an SD45 demo shelf queen but he isn't doing them due to the lack of interest in the unique L-window cab. 

Of course I'd entertain the Reading version but once again the dual control cab is a one off. 

Lucky me, my wallet is safe from this project. 

Theyre on the list of things to do but the SD40-2 is up next. That much Im sure of

Matt Makens posted:

No DCC or sound, he has a remote control lighting system that is pretty impressive that uses an AC injector to the rail to activate the digital lighting control. I asked him about DCC and he didn't put DCC in it because he is trying to keep the price point at $2700. DCC would add a few hundred bucks to that. Mine are both getting LOKSound

Matt,

A couple others told me on Sunday that if you open the locomotive you void the warranty, does that only include the traction motors, gearboxes, or is that also removing the body from the chassis to install DCC/Sound?   Didn't sound right to me, but perhaps you discussed with Erik to clarify and provide an accurate statement around install of DCC/Sound and the warranty?

nw2124 posted:

Matt: Thanks for the photos and I am very glad you are getting a fine piece or ART. SD45 production delivery is looking to be around January 2018. Erik is machining the drive and the final assembly most likely be done overseas. The first photo of the pilot samples is the Santa Fe. The motors for each of the fans  are slightly larger the an pencil eraser. The photos of the truck do not have the brake cylinders in installed yet. The model as anticipated has gone further than any model to date with never before fully modeled trucks, 3D modeled screens, actual modeled traction motors, working fan speeds that will coincide the speed notch of the locomotive, working louvers on the tunnel motor versions, step lights, and even a high end drive that runs and concealed in the model, etc.  A "FIRST CLASS" diesel with all the right stuff!   KUDOS TO ERIK on a job well done so far!!!!!!!  Well worth the wait to have a model as good as this.       

Stephen

Brass IS Class!

Final assembly back at the factory seems the most practical approach to this project all things considered. JMO

I discussed these points in depth with Erik. The models drive has a life time warranty. If you disassemble the drive gear box you will void the warranty. I have also discussed interfacing with the lighting board and with the fan motors on the loco. As I have not seen the loco yet I do not know how the install will go but I have a couple of strong ideas of the path I want to take to get the functionality I will want as well and utilize all the features of the locomotive.

Final assembly at the factory is not an option. The motor and drive will go in here in the US but the gear boxes in the trucks will be assembled in Korea

These look really good. Unfortunately it wasn't in my budget. I'll have to live vicariously through Matt M.

Matt, I'll be sure to send you photos and videos when I get them. Heck if you have a place to run em I might bring em out when I visit San Diego 

Matt Makens posted:

I discussed these points in depth with Erik. The models drive has a life time warranty. If you disassemble the drive gear box you will void the warranty. I have also discussed interfacing with the lighting board and with the fan motors on the loco. As I have not seen the loco yet I do not know how the install will go but I have a couple of strong ideas of the path I want to take to get the functionality I will want as well and utilize all the features of the locomotive.

Matt,

That makes a lot more sense, and certainly understandable on the drive gear box.  I couldn't see how you could void the warranty removing the body from the chassis.

I mentioned this and as long as you dont mess with the motor and gear box youre alright.

Matt,  Definitely great to hear!  Once these arrive definitely interested in your take on DCC installation!   May jump in on a future model.

Well, I've already got the Loksound decoders for them and a collection of speakers to see which ones will work the best. This may be the most thought out and planned decoder install ever

Mike, I saw your table with the piles of high end brass how come you didnt get on the MMW train and order some of these?

Sometimes that works against you... Too much time.. LOL!

Long story on Erik's models.  Was there and cancelled.  As mentioned in other threads.  I still support his work and wish him the best.  Will jump back in on future models.

Why cancel? Was it taking too long?

Matt Makens posted:

Well, I've already got the Loksound decoders for them and a collection of speakers to see which ones will work the best. This may be the most thought out and planned decoder install ever

I highly recommend these speakers if not in your collection yet:

http://www.tb-speaker.com/products/t1-1925s

You can get them from Parts Express.  There's also a larger 1931 model with a bit more low end that might just fit. But I find even the 1925 astonishingly realistic for it's size over the speakers commonly found in the DCC marketplace.        

Well Erik updated his website in the "General News" section and has stated that if you want to get on the boat and order some of these you have until May 31st.

The photos of his pilot samples really have put a lot of credibility behind this project and I'm happy to see this project take off and I'll be even happier to see the next project take shape. We need more manufacturers who are taking this hobby to the next level

nikkormat posted:

Was there any mention of the proposed Norfolk Southern '' Heritage'' locomotives?

Well, the Erie Lackawanna SD45-2 NS heritage unit is part of this run.

And apparently still can be ordered up thru May 31, not all models being built are still open for ordering according to the latest web site posting for MMW, any word at the show when Key is bringing in their cab forwards and CZ cars ? they had also listed SD40-2s for future production.

hibar posted:

And apparently still can be ordered up thru May 31, not all models being built are still open for ordering according to the latest web site posting for MMW, any word at the show when Key is bringing in their cab forwards and CZ cars ? they had also listed SD40-2s for future production.

All the Key cab forwards are in the country and either being inspected by Gary Schrader or being shipped to customers.  The existing builder for the CZ cars was not up to the task so they have been replaced with the builder who builds all Key's diesels and production is expected to begin within a month and be complete by the end of the year. 

Interesting did Key actually have a painted cab forward on display, damage free packing for this model for shipping was a concern when I spoke to Dave at a show several years ago.

hibar posted:

Interesting did Key actually have a painted cab forward on display,

Yes, I saw it.

damage free packing for this model for shipping was a concern when I spoke to Dave at a show several years ago.

 

Two of them.  AC7s I think he said, they all look the same to me.

hibar posted:

And apparently still can be ordered up thru May 31, not all models being built are still open for ordering according to the latest web site posting for MMW, any word at the show when Key is bringing in their cab forwards and CZ cars ? they had also listed SD40-2s for future production.

I find it interesting that both Key and MMW are planning on offering SD40-2s when 3rd Rail can't get enough reservations for their offering.

RDUNNIII, now that the sleepers are shipping, when will GGD reveal their next offerings for heavyweights?

Erik has the NS Heritage units on his site like 3rd or 4th in line and the had the flyer on his table at the show. He's definitely planning on building these

ecd15 posted:

hibar posted:

And apparently still can be ordered up thru May 31, not all models being built are still open for ordering according to the latest web site posting for MMW, any word at the show when Key is bringing in their cab forwards and CZ cars ? they had also listed SD40-2s for future production.

I find it interesting that both Key and MMW are planning on offering SD40-2s when 3rd Rail can't get enough reservations for their offering.

Key has had the SD40-2 on their list for quite a while now, when first announced some of their dealers were estimating 2K+ pricing since Sunsets announcement for a much lower cost plastic version and now MMW testing the waters it remains to be seen who is in and who is out. Bear in mind Sunset needs reservations to  support a 400 unit production run, which most likely they will achieve in time . MMW  will look for reservation numbers in the fall and they are quoting 2800 initially. Brass and plastic are 2 very different markets today, with the trend to very high detail levels in the hand built brass market, obviously if price is not an issue I can not see Key doing this model if MMW gets the necessary reservations  due to  Erics high end drive. In any case the brass markets today are all small run to a limited clientele. JMO

I'm just learning g about this brass stuff and the impression I'm getting is that the guys that would buy an MMW model or a Key model probably wouldn't buy a model from 3rd Rail and Vice versa. That's kind of the felling I get but I could be wrong on that.

Different ball park as they say in North America, my moneys on MWMW

Is it even the same sport? 

hibar posted:

Interesting did Key actually have a painted cab forward on display, damage free packing for this model for shipping was a concern when I spoke to Dave at a show several years ago.

 

Yup.  Judging from the size of box being used to ship back the box for the model, it's hard to see how it could be damaged - you could have put a small family in the box.

How'd this turn into a Key discussion?

For a 7K + model a large expensive shipping container is a given.

I think Kohs has a cab forward on his list of models to do. Its like 3rd in line after the Big Boy and the Y2B

hibar posted:

For a 7K + model a large expensive shipping container is a given.

Why do you think it is a $7K + model?   The price was $5.6K for non DCC and $5.9K for DCC, and the DCCs are all sold out.

Matt Makens posted:

I think Kohs has a cab forward on his list of models to do. Its like 3rd in line after the Big Boy and the Y2B

What, you tryin' to turn it into a Koh's discussion now?   At least it is talking about brass.  At least try and keep it to brass diesels and leave the steam for another thread, if you don't mind.

Get a hair cut train hippy!!!  Don't you have to bother Scott about all the problems with his models? Maybe I do want to turn it into a Kohs discussion,  Im not the one who brought up Key or steam

And as usual you doing an inadequate job of taking it back where it belongs.

Now boys, keep it civil...

Better put the sarcasm lock on, people might think we are serious. And John, what would you know about trains I dont event think you know how to get em out of the box

train hippy

rdunniii posted:

hibar posted:

For a 7K + model a large expensive shipping container is a given.

Why do you think it is a $7K + model?   The price was $5.6K for non DCC and $5.9K for DCC, and the DCCs are all sold out.

Last year the 7K number was being mentioned on some web forums, Key has rarely ever posted prices on their web site especially for proposed new projects and at shows refers inquiries to dealers for pricing, you have to check the few major brass dealers for future models and "estimated" pricing. Your posting is the first "hard numbers" I have seen on these models.JMO

Okay, Matt, that's it. I'm telling dad...

Hes just gonna tell ya them trains dont work in the box too

mwb posted:

train hippy

He's probably quoting this guy:

A character in the game Team Fortress 2, one of whose catchphrases is "Get a haircut, hippie!"

/offtopic

---PCJ

Well its a good thing nobody wore their sensitive pants in here today. I all seriousness, I talked with Erik in depth at his shop on Friday especially about the SD40-2 project. He already has almost enough reservations to make that one go and by the time he gets the drawings to the builder he should have enough that it will be a go.  I think he hopes to have pilot samples at the 2018 March Meet. I am on the hook for one regular and one extra crispy version as the extra crispy or Premium model will have all opening doors and a full blown prime mover inside. It should be beautiful, but I'm skeptical I will be able to get a sound decoder inside the darn thing cuz it'll be tight. It seems like a lot of people are betting on Erik and MMW to get this SD40-2 project done and like I said before, the pilot samples really gave him a boat load of credibility. I wasn't a naysayer by any means  but I had my doubts about a new guy in the market being able to pull it off. All the current models are quite nice and very detailed but none of them could get me to bite on the 2 rail market.  I wasn't a 2 railer until I got on this project but I love the SD45 and the SD40-2 and couldn't resist the opportunity to buy what I think will be the premier diesels made.  I'm positive these will be the yard stick by which all future brass diesels will be measured.

Matt Makens posted:

He is and he just told me he might have one you can get if you email him

I tried to E-mail to get one but I could not get it to go using the address on the web site...Help 

Moby, shoot me an email and I will send you his email address. My email is in my profile

I'm with Matt on the next project.  He said he thinks there will also be sufficient SD39s reserved to make those happen too.  Woo Hoo!!!  Only been waiting 40 years for those.  The SDL39 is not fairing likewise as it is so different that it would require 20-25 reservations and that is not happening. 

That sd40-2 premium version is going to be an amazing work of art

rdunniii posted:

hibar posted:

For a 7K + model a large expensive shipping container is a given.

Why do you think it is a $7K + model?   The price was $5.6K for non DCC and $5.9K for DCC, and the DCCs are all sold out.

Interesting Brass Trains lists 3 Key Cab Forwards brand new for $7050.00 each, I am assuming that was Keys suggested "retail price" and the number Key took their "dealer discount" off, understandably if a dealer bought 3 for inventory he would be looking to maximize his markup. As the remaining importers continue to one up each other on the ultimate model, production will continue to trend down and prices will rise [could reach Mr Sofue levels in time] JMO

I don't understand why it's so much money and why the put two decoders in it. My opinion is Tsunsmi steam sounds are distinctly synthetic and really all the great sounding. I have a preference towards the LokSound decoders myself but am also investigating the Zimo decoders and I will try those out soon. Kohs has his cab forward on the list to do and while the key model is beautiful I think the Kohs model will out do that one on several levels. Including price according to BrassTrains.com

Having compared diesel models st the show, Key quality and detail doesn't compare to even OMI which is better in my opinion. What Erik is doing for diesels with his models will set a whole new standard for detail and drive which will be hard to beat

You need to do some work on Overland, particularly the earlier ones.  Pay particular attention to soldered- in bulkheads, U-joints, and gearboxes.  I am not wild about their PA and E-7 windshields.

I looked at them right next to each other and in my opinion the OMI PAs and E units were nicer looking models 

"Having compared diesel models st the show, Key quality and detail doesn't compare to even OMI which is better in my opinion."

Matt, you're fairly new to O scale brass and very exuberant, which the hobby needs. I can remember my exuberant days back in the 80's and 90's and they were great. Having owned maybe 100+ OMI models over the years (pre 2000) and maybe 25 KEY models, I think your statement might be a bit sweeping. I can tell you from personal experience KEY models were built to a higher standard, held their value better and ran better out of the box. Again, this is for 2000 and earlier imports. After that time, OMI went modern and KEY stayed with transition era locos. I've owned new KEY locos imported in the past 17 years, but no OMI. 

When OMI went to the tower drive in the late 90's and offered factory paint, it was a game changer for them and it became a toss-up as to who imported better models. OMI was always more prolific in their offerings back in the Tom Marsh "hey days" during the 80's and 90's.  But their models were know for cold solder joints, loud and problematic drives, crooked number boards and headlights and didn't come factory painted. Sometime in the late 90's I believe they went to factory paint. All except for their 1993 run of the Union Pacific 3 Unit Turbine, which it is one of the most accurate and beautiful models they ever imported.  

In later years OMI only built modern diesels, that are of no interest to me, but I hear they are good quality. But, KEY units have always been built and painted well and ran good. Check out the resale value of OMI and KEY F and E units and the KEY models still bring twice as much and are harder to find.  

So, I don't think it's so easy to label one current day importer better than another, it's what you prefer and it's what they are importing at the time.  

Mark has obviously raised the bar with this new SD-45, so we'll see if anyone cares to follow his lead. 

Butch

I was actually only qualifying my statement that I compared 2 different models, the Alco PAs in Santa Fe and the E6s in Santa Fe both were made by key and OMI and in my opinion I thought the OMI models looked better. I'm new to O scale brass and I'm trying to learn and I'm asking people things. I know it's not a black or white comparison it's very subjective and people have their loyalties. Right now I have deposits on three locos and have a verbal commitment on two more locos and two cabooses but those are just twinkles in the importers eyes right now. So technically I don't own any two Rail O scale brass. Now at some point I will start buying second hand models and I'm trying very hard to learn about them so when I find a model I like I can be as informed and knowledgeable as possible so I can get what I want. 

I do not want to come off as anti Key, pro OMI or draw a line in the sand as whos the better importer, there are a ton of factors to take into consideration. Now you don't learn unless you ask questions and I'm tlearning about all this stuff with a fresh perspective. I come from a different aspect of the hobby and have a different mentality and I'm going to run everything I buy until the wheels fall off so how they run is just as important to me as how they look. Right now I'm just trying to understand the importers, the generalities of them, how the look, accuracy and most importantly how well they run and then I'll refine it from there. 

Now this is an SD45 pilot sample thread about the new guy in town and I know for a fact the drives in these models will be phenomenal. I saw it run, I even tried to stall it and it wasn't happening so I'm not worried about the stuff I ordered. And for accuracy I'm supremely confident they will extremely accurate and the detail will be second to none in diesels. These new models will blow away the other ones in all aspects and I expect should be a game changer

Excellent way to look at the hobby Matt and I didn't mean to preach, just wanted you to keep an open mind. You're going to have a ball hunting for, learning about and acquiring 2nd models...I sure did. It becomes a passion and you sound like you've already caught the fever. Have fun.

Butch 

Someone made a comment about the finest loco ever built, SDL-39 by Midwest. I told him I'll take one.

Dick

Matt, I will trade a recent, brand new Overland PRR PA for any road name Key PA straight across.

Bob do you like the Key models better?  On my list of locos I want is a set of PA's and a set of E6's. I just don't know enough about them to say I'll get this one or that one. I know if I get OMI models I will need to get the drive reworked I'm sure. but I'll have to check for accuracy as well. I have a ton of late photos of late PA's from 4 or 5 roads that I can compare to lost of Santa Fe and SP plus I do have snata fe E6 photos some where in the collection to. I'm thinking ill model transition era as this affords me the opportunity to run all the greats but I will have some modern because I grew up on modern. when I finally do get my models I will be relegated to running at the museum for a time until I decide what to do

Matt, if Bob doesn't mind I can comment on the KEY E-6's and Bob can comment on both.  The last run 2014-15 (might be the only run) of the KEY E-6's are a knock out.  The Santa Fe units were especially nice and there are photos and videos of them on the internet.  I know Gary Schrader had several videos and you can still see some great photos of this model on the KEY website.  Gary was involved in the correctness of the build, just as he has done on the new KEY AC's, which are incredible.  

OMI imported their E-6's and E-3's maybe in the late 80's or early 90's and they had tank drives. I don't think they repeated this offering again. They were imported in natural brass finish and required paint, lighting, glazing and drive updates.  Highly detailed Samhongso or Ajin models, like most OMI diesels, but required the modeler to finish them.

The KEY E-6's are beautifully factory painted, lighted, glazed and had a new improved drive, designed by Roger Lewis (Wasatch Models). They had illuminated work lights above the trucks and really neat Marrs light plus cab,instrument panel and engine room lights with simulated prime movers (highly detailed and painted brass panels) you can see through the side screening.  They also ran as smooth as any model out there and quiet as a Swiss watch. They are DC only as getting a consensus on which decoder to install was impossible. But adding your own decoder is not that difficult. 

All in all, a real home run of a model.  Due to limited years of prototype operation I've seen them on the secondary market, brand new, for much less than they cost the original owner. But, you'll still spend $1000-1250 per unit.  In the long run these are the models you should shoot for.  More expensive that OMI's, but your buying a 21st century designed and built model in all respects. 

Hope this helps.

Butch

I cannot comment on the E-6.  I do not like the shovel nose, and prefer the E-7.  I love the lines of the PA.  And believe me, I am far from a nit-picker, preferring sand cast PAs to almost anything else.  here are a couple shots:

Top is obviously prototype, and stolen; bottom is CLW sand cast, Lionel (best, in my opinion), Overland, and MTH in nickel silver, and yet to be finished.  You tell me if Overland looks correct?

Never paid much attention to PA models, but they all appear to have stubby noses. Might just be the angle of the photo.  Looks like CLW came the closest to the windshields. 

BH

bob2 posted:

Top is obviously prototype, and stolen; bottom is CLW sand cast, Lionel (best, in my opinion), Overland, and MTH in nickel silver, and yet to be finished.  You tell me if Overland looks correct?

OK, not a problem!

OMI Windshield looks the best to me, Lionel windshield is second. The other two are abominations. OMI is best overall

Simon

Matt Makens posted:

Bob do you like the Key models better?  On my list of locos I want is a set of PA's and a set of E6's. I just don't know enough about them to say I'll get this one or that one. I know if I get OMI models I will need to get the drive reworked I'm sure. but I'll have to check for accuracy as well. I have a ton of late photos of late PA's from 4 or 5 roads that I can compare to lost of Santa Fe and SP plus I do have snata fe E6 photos some where in the collection to. I'm thinking ill model transition era as this affords me the opportunity to run all the greats but I will have some modern because I grew up on modern. when I finally do get my models I will be relegated to running at the museum for a time until I decide what to do

Matt,     Do yourself a favor and get PROTOTYPE photos of the stuff you want to buy. Study them and make your own decision because YOU are the guy you have to please.  Most all of this stuff varies by BUILDER, and even locos within the same run can have slight differences because different individuals have worked on them. Goes with them being hand made. Beauty, as they say is in the eye of the beholder. Choose carefully.

Good Luck!

Simon

Stubby? The modern CLW is indeed stubby and not tapered.  These are all considerably longer and tapered.  My quarrel with Overland can be seen by comparing the part above the windshield and below the roof with that in the prototype photo.

Yes, some find the sand cast models abominable.  There are many who appreciate them for their historical connection to our hobby.  It really does take all kinds - not all of us are serious enough about trains to spring for a $3000 Diesel model.

will there be 3 rail versions also?

still waiting after 5 years for an o scale mk5000c

Man I prolly have 500 pictures of Alco PAs that my dad took back in college so that's not an issue. I do I'm quite a ways away from buying 2nd hand models. I got an email today from Erik saying he will be opening orders for the sd40-2 and requiring deposits. He's making a limited number of premium models and those are first come first served basis. The 45 will be here in a year and the -2 hopefully the next year so that's where my money's going

Where does one even buy Key Models? There is no contact info on their website  and no dealer listing. Im considering some F-units on their next run but have no idea  where to get order them

Matt Makens posted:

Where does one even buy Key Models? There is no contact info on their website  and no dealer listing. Im considering some F-units on their next run but have no idea  where to get order them

Weren't you at the Chicago meet?  Didn't talk to Roger at the Key tables?