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graz posted:

Here's a diagram showing how a 153 is used with an AC relay and an insulated rail.

AC relay diagram

Graz,

Where do you get you relays? Back years ago, I used Radio Shack relays with rectifiers. Of course, I have not tried to buy relays there in a very long time. I would like to install some new 153's but I need a new source.

Thanks

Here is how to do it w/o relays or modules as posted in 2011.

 
lionelsoni posted:

...There is a simple way to operate a signal from a control rail (an insulated outside rail), which I have described a number of times on the forum, using only an extra incandescent lamp:

Connect the green lamp's terminal to the layout common, that is, the outside rails generally.  Connect the red lamp's terminal to the supply, whether the center rail or a separate accessory supply.  Connect the signal's common (the terminal connected to both lamps) to the control rail.  Then connect an extra lamp in parallel with the red lamp, that is, effectively between the supply and the control rail.  The extra lamp should have the same voltage rating as the signal lamps but draw twice the current.  When the signal lamps are number 52s or 53s, as they often are or could be, a number 57 is ideal as the extra lamp.  An alternative is to use two extra lamps in parallel, of the same type as in the signal.

A couple of years ago, I was surprised to come across almost the same idea in an old book I was reading.  [Raymond F. Yates, Making and Operating Model Railroads, D. Appleton-Century, New York, 1943]  It was attributed to Albert C. Kalmbach, the founder of the very company that sponsors this web site.  The difference was that he used an ordinary resistor in place of the extra lamp.  However, lamps work much better in this circuit.

Last edited by ADCX Rob

On my old 70s layout I attached another relay to the stop (red) side to shut down the block to the rear of the train to hold a second train until the the signal showed Clear (green) . About a six foot insulated section beginning at the signal did the job.  A second signal wired in parallel with the first was placed at the beginning of the shut downed block where the second train would be stopped.  (Only have two colors to work with).     We ran two nice long trains on the line (about 50 ft. in length) at the same time, adjusting the number of cars until the two trains were about even in timing, but with enough overlap so that viewers cold see the trains stop and proceed on signal indication. Of course both trains were locked in forward.  Visitors were delighted to see trains move and clear on signal. Fun and easy to do.  Those old Lionel pamphlets about operating trains had a whole lot of great tips for interesting running.       

@ADCX Rob posted:

Bob Nelson explains how the resistance in the circuit affects the performance, so LEDs can be used, in parallel with the bulbs, but you still need to use the bulbs as well, hiding them under the layout, eg.

I s'pose one could light a trackside structure or something. 

Even then, because the one bulb never actually shuts off, an LED will probably remain "on" when you expect it to be off.

It sounds sort of like how Minitoys did "directional" lighting on their trolleycars.  Each bulb is wired to one of the brushes.  When the motor is going one way, the bulb is getting power directly from the track.  When the motor goes the other way, that same bulb is getting power after it's been through the motor; this reduces voltage to the bulb and dims it.  Quite clever, really.

Mitch

Some might ponder that using a power-hungry bulb (incandescent) to operate an energy-saving LED signal is incongruous.  That said, the math to analyze how/why a bulb can be applied to an LED pair is a bit more involved than bulb-alone or LED-alone.  That is, there have been many OGR threads about how insulated-rail can control a red-green LED signal WITHOUT using a bulb and WITHOUT using a relay.  For example, here's one OGR thread.

By all means try the bulb method.  If it works then game over, declare victory, life is good, etc.

If it doesn't work, or not as well as you'd like, then we can re-visit.

There is another method if you ate running trains one way.  Some railroads keep signals dark unless there is a train within a set distance of he signal.  I think it is called approach signaling.  If the signal is facing opposed to the direction of traffic, then use the insulated block, and wire to light the RED signal only.  It will only show red as the train approaches and passes the signal.  Once out of the block, it will show only a dark signal.

Upon further examination, the LED approach may be very simple and arguably better performing than the bulb method.

First, there have been previous OGR discussions on what is inside the LED replacement bulbs that supposedly work with AC.  Obviously there are zillions of LED replacement bulbs that work with DC for automotive replacement applications.

Now this gets a little techno-geeky but I was somewhat pleased with this discovery.  Skip to the end of this post when your eyes start to glaze over.

The key is to use an LED bulb that has both a diode and resistor (in addition to the LED).  For example, there was this OGR discussion about high failure rates in an LED bulb that only has a resistor.  OTOH, there was this OGR discussion with happy results for an LED bulb that has both the diode and resistor.  Again, remember we are talking O-gauge applying AC voltages to LED bulbs which is a fairly unique application in the big scheme of thing.

led bulbs for 153 signal

Presumably if you've gotten this far you're familiar with the analysis of how the bulb method works...as referred to earlier in this thread.  The "discovery" is that if the LED replacement bulbs are as I show above, then you won't have the so-called dimming problem with the insulated-rail trigger method!  That is, if you apply AC to the red and green wires of the 153...and leave the common wire open, the internals diodes in the 2 LED bulbs are facing opposite polarity and both light will be dark!  In contrast, the original 2 incandescent bulbs in a 153 will be faintly dim as each would get half the AC voltage.

So, because there is not a dimming issue, you can actually use a cheap 5-cent resistor to implement insulated-rail triggering without the need for a relay. And you would not be "burning" a lot of power if a bulb is used as the external load to power the green bulb in the untriggered condition.

insulated rail trigger of 2 aspect LED AC signal

I don't have the LED replacement bulbs for a 153, so I just wired up proxies as shown above.  In other words the LED + diode + resistor.  Then I added a 5-cent resistor (470 Ohms) between the common and Red terminals of the 153.  Here it is in action:

Note that this method does not have any flicker/chatter protection for dirty/intermittent wheel contact.  Some comments were made earlier in this thread about the relay method which can be used with time delay to implement this.

The astute observer might conclude this method could be applied to the original incandescent bulb method by adding cheap 5-cent diodes to each bulb.  This would solve the dimming problem assuming half-wave power to the bulbs is bright enough.

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Fair enough.  My diagram was not clear enough.  That's on me.

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As I see it, an AC-compatible LED bulb consists of 3 components all crammed into the bayonet housing.  I don't have one so in my proof-of-concept I created a proxy.

So because the diode is buried inside the bayonet housing, one would have to open up the housing to access a DC point suitable for a energy storage capacitor.  The voltage applied to the bulb itself is AC.

This is picking at nits, but if capacitors could be placed in the red and green LED bulbs (internally or externally) flicker may indeed be demoted.  But I think you'd get situations where BOTH aspects are on at the same time (albeit momentarily); as to whether this is a ho-hum artifact or a show-stopper is a to-each-his-own.  OTOH, with the relay method (SPDT), the addition of a capacitor for flicker/chatter reduction is "clean" in that you could never have both aspects on at the same time.

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Last edited by stan2004

Yep, I was just doing it the simple way with the diagram presented.

I believe in the relay as well, that's why I created these.  Does the while job, no flicker, 10A relay, and DCS protection.  Did I mention no soldering, all the connections are a terminal block.  If you want a longer delay, I left an external cap connection to boost the delay before dropout with an external cap.

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Last edited by gunrunnerjohn

Yep, I was just doing it the simple way with the diagram presented.

I believe in the relay as well, that's why I created these.  Does the while job, no flicker, 10A relay, and DCS protection.  Did I mention no soldering, all the connections are a terminal block.  If you want a longer delay, I left an external cap connection to boost the delay before dropout with an external cap.

Looks interesting.  Looks like this relay also could power, say, a 145 gateman as well as the 153.  Semaphore possible?

Looks interesting.  Looks like this relay also could power, say, a 145 gateman as well as the 153.  Semaphore possible?

Well, it has a 10A relay, so it could power quite a few things.   Here's a simple diagram of it connected to a red/green signal, likely one of the simplest uses.  In this configuration it's powering the board from the track voltage, and the signal from external power.

For conventional users, it's frequently useful to power everything with external power, that is easily accommodated.

You'll note in this example, the track center rail is not used as we derive no power from the track, just trigger on the insulated rail to switch aux power.  The outside rail is represented, that is because to use the insulated rail technique, your aux power and track power must share a common ground.

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Last edited by gunrunnerjohn

...

Now, where does one obtain these wunderkind LED bayonet bulbs?  The ones I've encountered on eBay, et cetera seem to be resistor-only.   

I copied a paragraph from my earlier post:

The key is to use an LED bulb that has both a diode and resistor (in addition to the LED).  For example, there was this OGR discussion about high failure rates in an LED bulb that only has a resistor.  OTOH, there was this OGR discussion with happy results for an LED bulb that has both the diode and resistor.  Again, remember we are talking O-gauge applying AC voltages to LED bulbs which is a fairly unique application in the big scheme of thing.

As discussed in the 2 threads, the consensus was the reason for high failure rate of the LED bulb without the diode was the lack of that diode (internally).  That is, it would work fine for automotive 12V DC applications, but should not have been used in AC applications such as O gauge.  The 2nd thread shows an off-the-shelf LED bulb (albeit wedge style base) that has the internal diode and resistor.  This was apparently specifically designed as a drop-in replacement for O-gauge AC applications.  I guess I assumed that if one can buy an "obscure" wedge-style base AC LED, then you'd be able to get a bayonet style AC LED (with internal diode and resistor).

But, if finding a bayonet genuine AC LED is a snipe hunt, then simply add the diode externally.  Diodes are maybe 5 cents a piece in small quantity and essentially any diode will work (you do not need a high power diode).  Of course now you have fuss with 3 added components...

led bulbs for 153 signal external diodes

As mentioned earlier, I believe the external diode method can be applied to the original scheme for insulated-rail (no relay) control of the original (incandescent bulb) 153 or equivalent.  This could potentially solve the dim-bulb "problem" of that method.  I can elaborate if there's any interest.

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Here is my drawing of a relay set-up for a 153 Block Signal.

The Capacitor helps eliminate Relay chatter, and will hold the relay closed for a second after the last wheel leaves the insulated rail.  I only show one track length of insulated rail, but it can be much longer, depending on the size of your block and length of train. The other contacts on the relay can be used to kill the power to the center rail in the block approaching the signal,  ( not shown in my drawing )  so the following train stops at the red signal, but will proceed when signal turns green.

Basic Block Signal-Model

Steve

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@shorling posted:

I can report that I use hundreds of Town and Country Lionel direct replacement LED bulbs on my layout.  These LED bulbs have been on my layout for over 10 years with zero failures.

I'm pretty sure the wedge-base LED bulb (with internal diode and resistor) was from Town and Country.  Additionally the T&C site had this review comment of the bayonet LED green bulb:

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@Steve24944 posted:
The other contacts on the relay can be used to kill the power to the center rail in the block approaching the signal,  ( not shown in my drawing )  so the following train stops at the red signal, but will proceed when signal turns green.

Killing power to the tracks works for conventional running, but not for command.  Killing power to the tracks for command locomotives doesn't accomplish the goal you mention as TMCC/Legacy locomotives will simply stop and wait to be started again from the remote, DCS locomotives will pause briefly and then shutdown and you'll have to do the startup sequence from the remote to get them moving again.

Last edited by gunrunnerjohn

I have modified my drawing to show how relay can be used to stop a following train.  When relay is open and signal is green, power flows to the center rail of track approaching green signal.  When Relay is closed, power is cut to the center rail, stopping train, until previous train clears the insulated rail block.  Again, I am showing only one track length,the insulated rails, outside rail to control relay, and insulated center rail to stop following train can be longer.

I can't speak to how this would effect command control or other modern control systems.  I am a Post War, conventional operator.

Block Signal-Train-Stop

Steve

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@Steve24944 posted:

I have modified my drawing to show how relay can be used to stop a following train.  When relay is open and signal is green, power flows to the center rail of track approaching green signal.  When Relay is closed, power is cut to the center rail, stopping train, until previous train clears the insulated rail block.

It's a your-mileage-may-vary, but if you like threading-the-needle there have been accounts where you apply some lower (non-zero) track voltage to center-rail to stop a train (rather than completely removing power).  This is enough voltage to keep the electronics alive (e.g., sounds, lights) ... but not enough to move the engine.   Yes, the engine is stalled and some may consider this untoward but it is arguably a viable work-around.

If you use MTH PS2/PS3 in conventional, a track voltage of around 8V will stop the engine without stalling the motor and the electronics stays alive.  In command, a track voltage of around 8V should also stop the engine from motor stall but the electronics should stay alive.  Again, one is entitled to their opinion on whether this is any way to run a railroad...but then again this is a discussion forum...

One issue with at least the TMCC stuff I tried the reduced power trick with was the variability between locomotives.  Some locomotives would stop just as intended and then move out when higher voltage was restored.  However, others would not stop, primarily lightweight stuff that didn't take much energy to move.  By the time you got the voltage where they would stop, you were having issue with the electronics loosing it's marbles until a power cycle.

@stan2004 posted:

I'm pretty sure the wedge-base LED bulb (with internal diode and resistor) was from Town and Country.  Additionally the T&C site had this review comment of the bayonet LED green bulb:

Untitled

Autoillumination also has a selection of direct replacement LEDs.  They offer more bulb colors and temperature colors but are pricy.   They also have 14 VAC LED bulbs.  A cheaper solution to warm color temperature can be to spray the bulb with translucent paint.

@stan2004 posted:


As mentioned earlier, I believe the external diode method can be applied to the original scheme for insulated-rail (no relay) control of the original (incandescent bulb) 153 or equivalent.  This could potentially solve the dim-bulb "problem" of that method.  I can elaborate if there's any interest.

All I need at this point is suggested values for the diodes and resistors and it's off to Radio Shack* for me! 

Thanks! 

@shorling posted:

I can report that I use hundreds of Town and Country Lionel direct replacement LED bulbs on my layout.  These LED bulbs have been on my layout for over 10 years with zero failures.

I've dropped them a line about buying a box of 50 clear LEDs, half screw and half bayonet, for experimentation purposes.

And as we all know, when the Razorback Traction Co. starts experimenting...   Well.   

Mitch

*Yes, I'm one of those lucky sods who still has a Radio Shack in the area. 

All I need at this point is suggested values for the diodes and resistors and it's off to Radio Shack* for me!

A good starting point for the resistor if Radio Shack (click on the link):

470Ω ½W 5% Carbon-Film Resistor (5-Pack)

Kind of floors me that they charge $1.50 for a 5-pack but if this is all you're buying I suppose mail-order shipping would far exceed that.  Resistors like this should be a a nickel or so in small quantity.

If you only have the non-diode LED bulbs and need to add the external diode, Radio Shack appears to have an assortment of 25 diodes for only $3.50 (any of the 25 would work in this application) which is actually not unreasonable (click on the link):

Rectifier Diode Assortment (25-Pack)

I have fond memories of Radio Shack - especially their Free Battery Club punch card or whatever it was called - of course you couldn't get alkalines LOL.  Anyway, I looked up these 2 items in my paper Radio Shack catalog from last century and inflation is not that bad...

rs

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Well, it has a 10A relay, so it could power quite a few things.   Here's a simple diagram of it connected to a red/green signal, likely one of the simplest uses.  In this configuration it's powering the board from the track voltage, and the signal from external power.

For conventional users, it's frequently useful to power everything with external power, that is easily accommodated.

You'll note in this example, the track center rail is not used as we derive no power from the track, just trigger on the insulated rail to switch aux power.  The outside rail is represented, that is because to use the insulated rail technique, your aux power and track power must share a common ground.

Hey John....Where could I buy one of these (or several)?

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