Canadian Pacific 10 Wheeler 6-11202

cjack posted:

If I put a 9 VDC battery to the blue and yellow wires coming from the motor board and going to the motor sensor board, are they the drive for the motor...try it just to see the motor move a bit?

If you try this, disconnect the motor from the drive boards so you don't feed anything back to the boards. You can put nine volts on the motor, although the battery might not have enough current to run the motor, but make sure the battery goes to the motor only, nothing/nowhere else.

This is an engine that I looked at a few years ago and after poking around and trying an R4LC board, it started running normally. When I looked at it before, it was running erratically. And at the time I only had an S01 radio board which was no test at all. I have an S03 board now and no luck with that. 

GRJ suggested that the most likely suspect is the motor drive board and since the motor ran before (but erratically), I guess I can eliminate the motor. That leaves the motor sensor board and the motor drive board...I guess.

On this Canadian Pacific 10 Wheeler 6-11202

Does anyone know what this semiconductor plugged into the connector is and possibly the part number for the harness?

Pretty sure that's a transistor, but I can't read all the numbers in your photo, lighting is wrong.  My 10-wheeler has the same thing.  I've never found out exactly what it was supposed to accomplish, my guess is some sort of reset circuit.  It wouldn't hurt to replace it if we can identify the part.

I'd unplug the motor harness and test the motor with a bench DC power supply or 9V battery in both directions.  Since you've already replaced the R4LC, inspecting the wiring is obviously a key step.  If all that fails, the likely suspect is indeed the DCDS.

Its looks like its a precision voltage detector. S80809CN

https://www.ablic.com/en/doc/d...tector/S808xxC_E.pdf

Pete

Better eyes than I have, I was having trouble making out the numbers. 

The way it's wired it appears that it's a low voltage reset circuit.  That's the PIC programming socket, so the output detection is connected to Master Clear, and the VDD and VSS are connected to the PIC processor supply voltage.  When the processor voltage falls too low, it clamps on Master Reset.

I'm not sure why the PIC reset isn't doing the job for them, that's another story.

The good news is, the board should work without that part on it, it's only there for a low voltage situation on the processor.  I'd be tempted to lift pin #1 and see if that changes anything.  You'd at least eliminate that as a possible failure.  If it was holding the chip in reset, it sure wouldn't work!

I thought it said 5808, but S808 looks right. It says S808 39CN F630.

So...

 Pin No. 1 OUT Voltage detection output pin 2 VDD Voltage input pin  3 VSS GND pin

I unplugged the connector and no change. Looks like I'll order the DCDS board. I did unplug the 6 pin molex and tapped a 9 volt battery to the motor (the blue and yellow wires going to the sensor board) and it runs both directions. Thanks for the info. 

THIS IS ALL WRONG, I MIXED UP THE EVEN AND ODD PINS. THE BLUE WIRE SHOWN IN THE HARNESS PICTURE IS SERIAL DATA AND THE WHITE WIRE IS THE CHUFF SIGNAL...

READ DOWN TO MY LATER POSTS...

I'm not quite sure what/how/why the signals go from R4LC pins 16 and 18 to the DCDS-J motor driver. The pin 16, Reverse Drive goes to the double white in the harness picture, and pin 18, Forward Drive goes to the double white as well. So they are connected together...

But...other motor driver applications use forward and reverse separately to drive the H.

I was tracing out the mother board while I wait for the DCDS from Lionel...somehow these drive signals get sorted by the DCDS? I notice that the serial data wire also goes to the DCDS thru the blue wire on the harness. Wonder why...

I can only think that the DCDS uses the serial data to figure direction.  However, that's oddball wiring, I usually just see a cable from one connector to the PWM inputs of the motor driver board.

Note that I fixed my mistake on pin 23 which is the serial data, not the antenna...actually I'm confused totally. I have the wrong pins for 16 and 18 identified. The inside row are the even numbered pins.

That makes more sense, I couldn't imagine how they were doing that.

Here are the correct pins identified...

and now I see that the motor drive forward and reverse do not go anywhere off the mother board. The serial data does it all? And the chuff is apparently what pulses the smoke with chuffing.

I confess I'm a little surprised that the motor drive PWM doesn't go off the board, but given this is Legacy, they do have positive control of the speed steps.  However, I wonder how it runs when it's addressed in TMCC mode with relative steps, hard to believe they don't just use the PWM in that case.

I also question the chuff routing.  This locomotive has the traditional chuff switch off the axle, and it also has a logic board dedicated to the smoke chuff control.  I question whether the DCDS has anything to do with chuff, I'd be fairly surprised if it does.

This is one locomotive that I'm actually pretty disappointed with the smoke control, and someday I will consider sticking a Super-Chuffer in mine to give me better smoke control and smoke at idle.

Yes, that’s those i/o pins 16 and 18 on the R4LC tied together and sent to the DCDS pin marked “duty” I think it says. Pin #2. When I turn on the smoke, the fan runs, and if I push the engine (since it won’t run), it puffs at the chuff rate. So that's the switch?

Anyway, it’l be wonderful if it runs when the board comes. The owner is 86 yo or so and would like it working so I got elected 😀...again.

Thanks for the interest!

Again, it has a chuff switch, and since I've seen the same vintage 10-wheeler with a bad chuff switch, I know that's in operation. 

Combining pins 16 & 18 and sending them to the DCDS kinda' makes sense if they're determining direction with the serial data.

It’s all starting to make more sense to me. Thanks again.

Fixed. Lionel sent me a board for $109 plus shipping...but I had to repair it before using it. However, I am grateful that they had it and it came in a week.

The board with a broken wire...

This note on masking tape looked ominous too...

But all's well that...ends well. I did use the existing three terminal device that was plugged into the board.

Thank's for the help John, it helped.

FWIW, most of the stuff like this from Lionel is apparently used, and I've had my share of bad parts from them.  It's pretty annoying, but hard to cure.

Looks like it runs now.

Pretty nice smoke...

My complaint with the early Legacy 10-wheeler is the smoke doesn't run at idle, but the smoke resistor still runs.  If you forget and stop it for a spell, it cooks the smoke unit.

I'm going to slap a Super-Chuffer in mine to replace the lame smoke fan controller when I get time.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

FWIW, most of the stuff like this from Lionel is apparently used, and I've had my share of bad parts from them.  It's pretty annoying, but hard to cure.

Wait...what?  If you order a certain part from Lionel it's possible that it might be USED?

So our friend Chuck was charged $109.00 for a used item?   Gee...seems they should at least mention that in advance.  

Mark in Oregon

Lionel disassembles returns and the like for older parts.  Some of the stuff you get it obviously used, and a few times I've gotten bad parts.  FWIW, MTH sends stuff like smoke units that have been soldered into a product as well, so they clearly are not "factory fresh" either.

Actually grateful to get the older parts. As long as they work

On the smoke, thanks for the tip on cooking the unit at a stop. 

There are a few early Legacy locomotives that have that issue, I recently had the early Legacy Polar Express locomotive in for repair, and it does the same thing.  I'm pretty sure most of the 2007-2009 vintage Legacy steam would probably have the same issue.